atmx2000
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Boeing May Use Antonov An-72 As Platform For FCA B

Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:48 am

ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Boeing May Use Antonov An-72 As Platform For FCA B

Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:57 am

Or Boeing could dig this thing out of the desert.


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Nice recognition for the Antonov designers, though. Not that I see it happen.

Peter
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
Lumberton
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RE: Boeing May Use Antonov An-72 As Platform For FCA B

Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:07 am

The timing of this article couldn't hurt if SU is still making up it's mind on the 787 or A350.  scratchchin 
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ptrjong
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RE: Boeing May Use Antonov An-72 As Platform For FCA B

Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:13 am

Antonov is a Ukrainian company, not a Russian one.
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
CX747
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RE: Boeing May Use Antonov An-72 As Platform For FCA B

Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:24 am

I do not see this happening either. Do we know what other designs Boeing is thinking of offering? So far we have the Alenia C-27J being offered along with the CASA CN 235 and 295. Both of these designs are proven and would fit the criteria quite well. My only concern is that they are both European. I don't have any problems with purchasing either one, I just find it a little disappointing that American engineers and companies don't have anything better.

Okay, here goes and I know this is a rant. WHAT THE HECK is Boeing and Lockheed doing? You can't honestly tell me that with all of their engineers and various professionals they can't come up with a better idea or something NEW?????? How about something NEW, how about showing some creativity like our fore fathers? When Boeing built the original 707s, that was ground breaking and so was the 747. When Lockheed decided to build a new transport in the 1950s, they didn't go backwards to a 1930s design but came up with the C-130. I know that designing aircraft is expensive and time consuming but it seems that we don't progress forward just reheat old ideas

In various industry magazines and journals, there is always talk about this massive brain drain going on in aviation. They talk about young college graduates going to other fields rather than aviation because of opportunities. Well, here is a GREAT opportunity. Get young engineers to design a brand new platform. Let them put their knowledge and education to great use making an aircraft that they feel a part of. Telling someone to design you a platform is much more exciting and challenging than sending someone to Russia to look at a 30+ year old design and see what we can do to slightly update it.
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keesje
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RE: Boeing May Use Antonov An-72 As Platform For FCA B

Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:44 am

It´s been a class of its own for many years.

http://www.flightlevel350.net/viewer.php?id=2741

A truly versatile aircraft.
http://www.cheburashka.5u.com/photos/An-72P_weapons.jpg
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CX747
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RE: Boeing May Use Antonov An-72 As Platform For FCA B

Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:02 am

After watching the video, the AN-70 aircraft aircraft is definitley a worthy design. I would still like to see other ideas but I'll actually put this design ahead of both the C-27J and Casa designs in my unprofessional opinion! What is neat though is the fact that whatever design is choosen, it will be fielded quickly and actually on the flight lines at Air Force bases at about the same time I'm leaving the "school house" of whatever platform I am lucky enough to fly.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
dl021
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RE: Boeing May Use Antonov An-72 As Platform For FCA B

Sat Jan 21, 2006 1:44 pm

I think it'd be a stroke of brilliant procurement. A Russian airplane designed to be used at lowgrade airfields and maintained by minimally trained techs working with basic tools.

If they can put the right electronics in it they'll have all the airplane they need for a third of what it'd cost here in the States.

I'm all for it.
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CX747
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RE: Boeing May Use Antonov An-72 As Platform For FCA B

Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:08 pm

I watched the AN-74 video again and I am truly impressed by this aircraft. How does a jet powered aircraft compare to the propeller driven competition in this fly off? Would these potential aircraft be manufactured in the States or in the airframe's home countries? When will we see one of these aircraft on the ramp of a USAF base?
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Boeing May Use Antonov An-72 As Platform For FCA B

Sun Jan 22, 2006 3:40 am

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 1):
Or Boeing could dig this thing out of the desert.

Sorry, I did my homework now and saw that the YC-14 and YC-15 are much larger and heavier aircraft than the An-72.
On the other end of the scale, the Casas are much lighter than the An-72, too small for serious airlifting.
The ATR is really an airliner and could never make it.
The C-27J is the only in-production aircraft in the same weight class as the An-72 I think. The USAF doesn't seem to have fallen in love with the C-27J though, or have they?
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
CX747
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RE: Boeing May Use Antonov An-72 As Platform For FCA B

Sun Jan 22, 2006 3:46 am

The USAF has actually operated the C-27 but retired them in the early 90s. Your assessment of the current competition is outstanding. Can we possibly find out what the capabilities of the C-23 Sheppard aircraft is? That is the aircraft this platform is replacing. The requirements are being re-written as we type though. The Air Force and Army have bee told to work together on this and figure out exactly what the requirements are. Hopefully the Air Force operates this aircraft and not the Army. I am happy to see though that the two branches are working together. The Army is the customer of this product while the Air Force is the operator. If both sides work together you get an aircraft that fulfills its missions and delivers what is needed at the same time.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
AirRyan
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RE: Boeing May Use Antonov An-72 As Platform For FCA B

Sun Jan 22, 2006 4:35 am

Wow, I must admit that at first I thought to myself what in the world is Boeing smoking in their pipe, but that video certainly got the mind a thinking and as big a fan of the C-27J as I am, I'd love to see some further cooperation between Boeing and Russia as we are seeing with the RRJ.

[Edited 2006-01-21 20:36:47]
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Boeing May Use Antonov An-72 As Platform For FCA B

Sun Jan 22, 2006 5:02 am

What about spare parts, standardisation, avionics?

No doubt that this is a good airplane, but I guess introduction into the US military would be rather difficult...
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Boeing May Use Antonov An-72 As Platform For FCA B

Sun Jan 22, 2006 5:26 am

The C-23?! It's merely a Shorts 330, MTOW 22,900 lb, can carry two jeeps, or 30 people. In other words, one third smaller even than the CASA CN-235.

I don't know the FCA requirements, but if the C-27 and An-72 are candidates, I'm suprised that the C-23 is the norm.
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
L-188
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RE: Boeing May Use Antonov An-72 As Platform For FCA B

Sun Jan 22, 2006 10:31 am

Quoting CX747 (Reply 10):
Can we possibly find out what the capabilities of the C-23 Sheppard aircraft is?

I understand there are still a lot of AKANG guys that are still pissed they had to give up their Twin Otters for the Sherpa.
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GDB
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RE: Boeing May Use Antonov An-72 As Platform For FCA B

Sun Jan 22, 2006 11:11 am

The Sherpa was designed, for the USAF(E), to carry parts/people around US facilities in Europe.
This Belfast built aircraft was in competition with the CASA 212 in 1983/4, as well as facing hostility from IRA apologists.

It won out, but I guess with the post Cold War USAF(E) being a shadow of it's former self, the aircraft have been deployed elsewhere.

Shorts made a steady living for nearly 20 years with the Skyvan, sold to many airforces and civil agencies throughout the world (Olympic once unusually operated pax versions).
Then came the commuter SD.330, later SD.360, popular with the then embryonic regional airline industry as their 'entry level' aircraft.

The Sherpa came from the SD.330, to supplant the Skyvan.

The AN-72 is an impressive, proven machine.
I expect the US would want western engines/avionics, would this development cost wipe out any lower cost of manufacture/purchase?

In any case, the C-27J, with it's C-130J common engines/many avionics, makes the most sense, for the US services.
 
CX747
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RE: Boeing May Use Antonov An-72 As Platform For FCA B

Sun Jan 22, 2006 11:38 am

While in my personal opinion it would be neat to see the An-72 in US service, the C-27J does make the most sense etc. As I stated earlier, this competition will be exciting as the aircraft will compete, be down selected and put into service rapidly.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
L-188
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RE: Boeing May Use Antonov An-72 As Platform For FCA B

Sun Jan 22, 2006 1:29 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 15):
This Belfast built aircraft was in competition with the CASA 212 in 1983/4, as well as facing hostility from IRA apologists

I think you are thinking of the SC.7 Skyvan. The 330/360 are both 30 seaters like the Casa-235. The 212 was a 19 seater like the Skyvan.

Quoting GDB (Reply 15):
The Sherpa came from the SD.330, to supplant the Skyvan

True of the C-23A's. All of which I belive have been retired. A lot of them ended up with BLM and Forestry flying smoke-jumpers around.

I have been told that the C23B was built from ex-airline SD.360 airframes that had the tails cut off them and replaced by the Sherpa "H" tail and ramp. I don't belive that there where any new build C.23B's
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RE: Boeing May Use Antonov An-72 As Platform For FCA B

Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:31 am

The current plan to select the replacement by June 2006, and for the purchase of 45 frames between 2007 through 2011.


Alenia's C-27J:


Primary Function: Cargo/passenger transport
Power Plant/Manufacturer: Two General Electric T64-P4D engines
Shaft Horse Power: 3,400 each
Dimension: 74.5 feet long by 34.7 feet wide
Wingspan: 94.2 feet
Speed: 250 knots
Ceiling: 25,000 feet
Takeoff Weight (Typical): 56,878 pounds
Empty Weight: 39,500 pounds
Range: 1,500 nautical miles
Takeoff Distance: 1,500 feet
Runway: 1,800 feet by 45 feet

CASA's C-295:


Primary Function: Cargo/passenger transport
Power Plant/Manufacturer: Two Pratt & Whitney PW127G engines
Shaft Horse Power: 2,645 each
Dimensions: 80.3 feet long by 31.3 feet wide
Wingspan: 84.6 feet
Speed: 220 knots
Ceiling: 25,000 feet
Takeoff Weight (Typical): 51,145 pounds
Range: 2,300 nautical miles
Takeoff Distance: 2,395 ft

-UH60
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A342
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RE: Boeing May Use Antonov An-72 As Platform For FCA B

Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:03 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 18):
Primary Function: Cargo/passenger transport
Power Plant/Manufacturer: Two General Electric T64-P4D engines
Shaft Horse Power: 3,400 each
Dimension: 74.5 feet long by 34.7 feet wide
Wingspan: 94.2 feet
Speed: 250 knots
Ceiling: 25,000 feet
Takeoff Weight (Typical): 56,878 pounds
Empty Weight: 39,500 pounds
Range: 1,500 nautical miles
Takeoff Distance: 1,500 feet
Runway: 1,800 feet by 45 feet

The engine data is obviously for the old G.222, the C-27J has the same engines as the C-130J, the Allison 2100.
And are you sure about takeoff distance ?
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
Oykie
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RE: Boeing May Use Antonov An-72 As Platform For FCA B

Mon Jan 23, 2006 9:27 pm

Antonov sure know how to build planes.

Here are some specifications.

Engine: 2 63.7kN (14,330lb) ZMKB Progress D36 turbofans.
Max speed 705km/h (380kt)
cruising speed 550 - 600km/h (295 to 325kt).
Service ceiling 35,000ft.
Range between 1150km (620nm) to 5300km (2860nm).

Wing span 31.89m (104ft 8in)
length 28.07m (92ft 1in)
height 8.65m (28ft 5in)
Wing area 98.6m2 (1062sq ft)

3-crew cockpit


The way I see it, a new modern engine would be needed along with a modern 2-crew cockpit. I wonder what engine would be selected.

Here is a wild idea. Taking the 737NG fuselage, with high mounted wing, and a ramp door behind for fast loading and unloading of cargo and of course a new undercarriage.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
keesje
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RE: Boeing May Use Antonov An-72 As Platform For FCA B

Tue Jan 24, 2006 12:13 am

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 20):
Here is a wild idea. Taking the 737NG fuselage

I don't think a 737 fuselage would be good to drive in e.g a hummer or cargo palets.

Those are design starting points for a transporter..

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
sonic67
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RE: Boeing May Use Antonov An-72 As Platform For FCA B

Tue Jan 24, 2006 11:55 am

Did any thing come of this?

"In 1996, after more than 15 years in storage in the Arizona desert, the McDonnell Douglas YC-15 was being brought out of mothballs to continue its mission as an Advanced Technology Demonstrator .Boeing, will be operating the YC-15 on an eight-year no-cost lease from the U.S. Air Force. It was the first Air Force developmental aircraft to be leased back to a contractor under a Cooperative Research and Development Agreement."

http://www.theaviationzone.com/factsheets/amst.asp
 
sonic67
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RE: Boeing May Use Antonov An-72 As Platform For FCA B

Tue Jan 24, 2006 2:56 pm

As much as I can find out the YC-15 was brought out of mothballs and restored to a flyable state just like the article states. The YC-15 made a 2 hour test flight in 1997 but after that I can't find any information.
 
Oykie
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RE: Boeing May Use Antonov An-72 As Platform For FCA B

Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:24 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 21):
don't think a 737 fuselage would be good to drive in e.g a hummer or cargo palets.

The hummer and the cargo pallets would fit, although I get your point  Smile
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
aeroweanie
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RE: Boeing May Use Antonov An-72 As Platform For FCA B

Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:55 pm

Quoting Sonic67 (Reply 23):
As much as I can find out the YC-15 was brought out of mothballs and restored to a flyable state just like the article states. The YC-15 made a 2 hour test flight in 1997 but after that I can't find any information.

The crew lost an engine and put down in Palmdale, where it now sits. It is likely to never fly again.
 
sonic67
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RE: Boeing May Use Antonov An-72 As Platform For FCA B

Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:00 am

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 24):
The crew lost an engine and put down in Palmdale, where it now sits. It is likely to never fly again.

Was the plane damaged? Why wouldn't they repair it and continue the test flights Boeing had an eight-year no-cost lease from the U.S. Air Force ?
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Boeing May Use Antonov An-72 As Platform For FCA B

Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:12 am

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 20):
Why wouldn't they repair it and continue the test flights

I think it's clear now that the YC-14 is far too big for the FCA requirement. I shouldn't have introduced it into this thread perhaps.
However, its configuration is similar to that of the An-72/74. There's an interesting discussion going on about that concept here right now: Russian Aviation And Those Overhead Engines. (by Mirrodie Jan 24 2006 in Tech Ops), shedding some light on the drawbacks.
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RE: Boeing May Use Antonov An-72 As Platform For FCA B

Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:00 am

Quoting Sonic67 (Reply 26):
Was the plane damaged? Why wouldn't they repair it and continue the test flights Boeing had an eight-year no-cost lease from the U.S. Air Force ?

To quote Bill Norton's book "STOL Progenitors: The Technology Path to a Large STOL Aircraft and the C-17A":

"The aircraft flew again on 11 July 1998 for a training sortie with Narco and Norm Howell, another former Air Force test pilot flying C-17s. They took the airplane up to the Edwards restricted area and about 2 hours into their air work, climbing away from Palmdale after several approaches, the number one engine third-stage low-pressure turbine came apart. They landed at Palmdale without event. The jet was parked until time and resources could be made available for repairs. This, however, was not to be. Sufficient projects for the YC-15 had failed to materialize as funding cuts eliminated candidates. The effort was also under new management with the merger of McDonnell Douglas and Boeing on 1 August 1997. After investing $17 million in the program, the Boeing Company felt that it could not justify the expense of operating the old aircraft. The prospective customers for the testbed, with only small projects, couldn't afford to underwrite the upkeep and operation of the plane."
 
keesje
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RE: Boeing May Use Antonov An-72 As Platform For FCA B

Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:35 am

34.38 10´.65" N, 118.0545.26 W

for folks that want to see a recent satelite photo on google earth..
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