Boeing Nut
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Should The A4-D Skyraider Be In Todays Inventory?

Sun Mar 26, 2006 6:33 am

I remember people saying how tough this bird was. I was wondering what you in the know would think if this aircraft would be affective in, say, insurgent type mission air support. I realize that helicopters would do the job, but maybe the prop would have some type of advantage?

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Thorny
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RE: Should The A4-D Skyraider Be In Todays Inventory?

Sun Mar 26, 2006 6:41 am

Quoting Boeing Nut (Thread starter):
I remember people saying how tough this bird was. I was wondering what you in the know would think if this aircraft would be affective in, say, insurgent type mission air support. I realize that helicopters would do the job, but maybe the prop would have some type of advantage?

Not as long as we have the A-10.
 
jwenting
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RE: Should The A4-D Skyraider Be In Todays Inventory?

Sun Mar 26, 2006 5:44 pm

It might be useful for COIN operations in low intensity conflict zones, but indeed the A-10 does an excellent job at that.

Not sure whether it would be able to operate more cheaply or from shorter strips than the A-10, which might both be an advantage in some areas.

There was also a rather nifty idea in the 1980s to restart production of the P-51, fitted with 2 external 20mm cannon, rocket pods, bombs, and a turboprop engine.
Didn't go anywhere, plan was to sell it to low budget airforces as a ground attack aircraft but they went helicopter instead.
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L-188
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RE: Should The A4-D Skyraider Be In Todays Inventory?

Sun Mar 26, 2006 6:09 pm

The A-1 was very effective in NAM as an escort bird for the Jolly Green Giant.

It worked well enough the Air Force was taking ones the Navy had sent to the desert and refurbing them for their use-including AWAC versions.

If it worked there, it could work anywhere.
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GDB
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RE: Should The A4-D Skyraider Be In Todays Inventory?

Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:24 am

Didn't USAF A-7D's replace their A-1's, in particular in the 'Sandy' role escorting and if need be, supressing for helicopter CSAR in Vietnam?
The Corsair did have that Spey engine (licence built in the US), plus presumably decent fuel capacity, allowing loiter, as well as a heavy weapons load.
And that was replaced by A-10, so we are two generations into A-1 replacements.

In the more traditional Navy attack role (including nuclear delivery), wasn't the A-1 replaced by A-6A?
 
L-188
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RE: Should The A4-D Skyraider Be In Todays Inventory?

Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:23 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 4):
Didn't USAF A-7D's replace their A-1's, in particular in the 'Sandy' role escorting and if need be, supressing for helicopter CSAR in Vietnam?

I don't know I can agree with that. I would say since the A-7 is clearly a strike type. I would say that the USAF replaced them with the A-37 and the OV-10 to some extent.

The problem I have with calling the A-7 and the A-10 A-1 replacements is that you have to figure that a SAR helo cruises at what? about 130-140 Kts.

A lot slower then an A-10 or a A-7.

The A-1 can cruise at that slow speed and work down closer to the target, about on par with a Helo.
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kc135topboom
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RE: Should The A4-D Skyraider Be In Todays Inventory?

Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:42 pm

The USAF A-1D/E was normally the Sandy escorts for Jolly Greens, and occasional strike mission aircraft.

The USAF A-7D/K was normally a strike mission aircraft that occasionally escorted the Jolly Greens.

So, both aircraft had limited capabilities in both missions, and both carried a heavy load of weapons. The A-1 normally carried rockets and guns, the A-7 normally carried bombs and cannons.

Before the end of the Vietnam War, the USAF retired the few A-1Ds they had and stayed with the later version A-1E.

After the Vietnam War, the A-7D, and later A-7K replaced the A-1Es in all missions.

Later, the USAF had the compitition between the A-9A and A-10A for a limited strike aircraft, but speicalized in the CAS mission. Both were excellent aircraft in those missions, but the A-10A was scene as being better able to become a Combat SAR escort aircraft. The A-10 was also considered slightly more survivable.

Thus, the Warthog was born. It replaced the A-7D/K (but the A-7K stayed around until the mid 1990s with some ANG units), the remaining A-1Es, the A-37C, the O-2A, and the OV-10A/B.

The rest is history.
 
2H4
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RE: Should The A4-D Skyraider Be In Todays Inventory?

Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:49 pm




Quoting Jwenting (Reply 2):
There was also a rather nifty idea in the 1980s to restart production of the P-51, fitted with 2 external 20mm cannon, rocket pods, bombs, and a turboprop engine.

Ah, the Piper PA-48 Enforcer....








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AGM100
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RE: Should The A4-D Skyraider Be In Todays Inventory?

Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:00 am

I was reading an article recently about the maintenance problems with the US helicopter fleet in Iraq. The OH-58 was suffering some problems and is showing its age I guess. Curious was the statement from the Army in the article mentioned the OH-58 in its usual scout role but also talked about forward operation control. Also mentioned was stress on the Kiowa due to armed recon and attack operations. It seems to me that this describes the mission of a fixed winger like OV-10/OV-1 ?

Maybe Boeing Nut is right , a slow fly heavily armed prop driven aircraft may be what the Army needs??

I vote for the Mohawk !!
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kc135topboom
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RE: Should The A4-D Skyraider Be In Todays Inventory?

Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:11 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 8):
Maybe Boeing Nut is right , a slow fly heavily armed prop driven aircraft may be what the Army needs??

Well, they could just do that with an armed version of the Cessna C-340T.
 
 
jwenting
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RE: Should The A4-D Skyraider Be In Todays Inventory?

Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:47 am

helis in Iraq are showing increased wear due to the sand.
Nothing worse than that, just not considered when calculating the initial airframe life expectancy (which was calculated for use in the European theater mostly).
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L-188
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RE: Should The A4-D Skyraider Be In Todays Inventory?

Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:50 pm

The problem with the helo's is that they just can't lift as much as an A1.

Remember the Skyraider just missed WWII and was developed based on 1st hand knowledge of combat enviroments.
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f4wso
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RE: Should The A4-D Skyraider Be In Todays Inventory?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:45 am

The radial engine is a detriment to the Skyraider continuing service. It would have to have a powerplant that burns kerosene to be viable.

Quoting GDB (Reply 4):
Didn't USAF A-7D's replace their A-1's, in particular in the 'Sandy' role escorting and if need be, supressing for helicopter CSAR in Vietnam?

The A-7D on display at the National Museum of the US Air Force was flown by then Major Arnie Clark on a Sandy mission where he earned the Air Force Cross
From the museum's website...
"The A-7D on display was flown on Nov. 18, 1972, by Major Colin A. Clarke on a nine-hour rescue support mission in Southeast Asia for which he was awarded the Air Force Cross, the Air Force's second highest award for valor in combat. It was delivered to the USAF Museum on January 31, 1992."

Gary
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2H4
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RE: Should The A4-D Skyraider Be In Todays Inventory?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:00 am




Quoting F4wso (Reply 13):
It would have to have a powerplant that burns kerosene to be viable.

So close.....and yet, so far:

http://1000aircraftphotos.com/APS/3173L.jpg








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RE: Should The A4-D Skyraider Be In Todays Inventory?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:56 am

Quoting F4wso (Reply 13):
The radial engine is a detriment to the Skyraider continuing service. It would have to have a powerplant that burns kerosene to be viable.

The sad part about that statement is that the radial engine is one of the reases why it had such a good loiter time over it's target, A radial just sips fuel compared to any turbine at low altitude.

24H it wasn't the engine that killed the turboprop A1. It was the Gearbox and that stupid counter-rotating propeller. I think a P-51 with a PT6 in the nose would do very well. A lot better then that T-53 power Piper Enforcer.
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AGM100
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RE: Should The A4-D Skyraider Be In Todays Inventory?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:50 am

Quoting AislepathLight (Reply 10):

Perfect aircraft for the mission I was thinking of , something like a intermidiate gun ship / FAC aircraft.

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 11):
Nothing worse than that, just not considered when calculating the initial airframe life expectancy (which was calculated for use in the European theater mostly).

Just curious how it could not have been considerd? especially with the Apache ,blackhawk,Lynx etc.

Sand is always going to be a problem with Air breathers , other than filtration what else could be done.
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GDB
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RE: Should The A4-D Skyraider Be In Todays Inventory?

Sat Apr 01, 2006 3:44 am

These suggestions about a fixed wing element, how about that very upgraded version of the Embarer trainer? Already procured I think by Columbia for combat (and FARC are no slouches at firing on military aircraft), even comes with a .50 in each wing-WW2 style!
 
L-188
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RE: Should The A4-D Skyraider Be In Todays Inventory?

Sat Apr 01, 2006 2:11 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 17):
These suggestions about a fixed wing element, how about that very upgraded version of the Embarer trainer? Already procured I think by Columbia for combat (and FARC are no slouches at firing on military aircraft), even comes with a .50 in each wing-WW2 style!

An Embraer FAC vs. a Skyraider is sort of like comparing a 3/4 ton pickup truck and a mini-cooper.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
GDB
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RE: Should The A4-D Skyraider Be In Todays Inventory?

Sun Apr 02, 2006 4:09 am

Yes, but a Mini Cooper might just be much harder to hit, even have a lower IR signiture!
 
L-188
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RE: Should The A4-D Skyraider Be In Todays Inventory?

Sun Apr 02, 2006 4:29 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 19):
, but a Mini Cooper might just be much harder to hit

If a Skyradier takes a hit, it might not even feel it.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.

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