A342
Topic Author
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:05 pm

Indian AF Air Refueling System: Nato Or Russian?

Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:05 am

The topic basically is my question. What air refueling system does the Indian AF use, the western or the Russian one ?

I ask this because I know the Indian AF has IL-78 tankers, but apparently those refueled Jaguars on ferry flights to Alaska where they took part in an exercise.

To my knowledge, the 2 systems are not compatible. So which sytem is it ?
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
User avatar
ptrjong
Posts: 4088
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 9:38 am

RE: Indian AF Air Refueling System: Nato Or Russian?

Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:11 am

There is no 'western' air refueling system.

The USAF, Israelis, Dutch, Turks and Singaporeans (I think) use the boom system.

Everone else - the British, US Navy, French, Russians, Indians and others - use the probe and drogue system. Not sure if Russian and Western probes and drogues are normally fully compatible, but it can't be too difficult.

Peter
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
aseem
Posts: 1971
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:39 pm

RE: Indian AF Air Refueling System: Nato Or Russian?

Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:06 am

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 1):
Everone else - the British, US Navy, French, Russians, Indians and others - use the probe and drogue system. Not sure if Russian and Western probes and drogues are normally fully compatible, but it can't be too difficult.

IAF has a potpourri of Russian, French and British aircrafts, so it makes sense to fall into the latter category.
Moreover, with Boeing and Lockheed in contention for the 126 aircraft IAF order, it will be interesting to see how the systems are modified. Shouldn't be that difficult.
Strange USAF and US Navy use different systems. Does it affect joint operability? And why was it allowed to happen in the first place?
rgds
VT-ASJ
ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
 
User avatar
ptrjong
Posts: 4088
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 9:38 am

RE: Indian AF Air Refueling System: Nato Or Russian?

Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:29 am

Quoting Aseem (Reply 2):
Strange USAF and US Navy use different systems. Does it affect joint operability?

Yes it does. Drogues can be fitted to USAF boom tankers I think, but USN tankers cannot refuel AF fighters and bombers.

Quoting Aseem (Reply 2):
And why was it allowed to happen in the first place?

The boom system allows more rapid fuel transfer I suspect, and was considered more suitable for Strategic Air Command bombers.

The hose and drogue system is more flexible. Drogues don't require a boom operator and are easy to install on smaller aircraft. As such it suits carrier aviation, and smaller air forces better.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Voortmans Dirk
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Chris Lofting

The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
User avatar
ptrjong
Posts: 4088
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 9:38 am

RE: Indian AF Air Refueling System: Nato Or Russian?

Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:59 am

Quoting Aseem (Reply 2):
Moreover, with Boeing and Lockheed in contention for the 126 aircraft IAF order, it will be interesting to see how the systems are modified. Shouldn't be that difficult.

The IAF is considering the F-16? Actually, I think it might be bit of a headache to bolt a refuelling probe on the F-16. The aircraft's boom receptacle is far behind the cockpit as you can see in Dirk's picture. The probe needs to be in front, so the pilot can steer it into the drogue.
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Indian AF Air Refueling System: Nato Or Russian?

Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:36 pm

The Problem the IAF faces is a stoppage of Supplies from the US,in case of sanctions.Whereas the Russian & French wont.
A good site on the IAF


regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
A342
Topic Author
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:05 pm

RE: Indian AF Air Refueling System: Nato Or Russian?

Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:00 am

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 1):
There is no 'western' air refueling system.

The USAF, Israelis, Dutch, Turks and Singaporeans (I think) use the boom system.

Everone else - the British, US Navy, French, Russians, Indians and others - use the probe and drogue system. Not sure if Russian and Western probes and drogues are normally fully compatible, but it can't be too difficult.

With western system I meant the (small) western hose and drogue system.

IIRC, this western system and the comparable Russian one have different fuel flow rates etc. So what has the Indian AF done to manage this ?
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
User avatar
ptrjong
Posts: 4088
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 9:38 am

RE: Indian AF Air Refueling System: Nato Or Russian?

Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:08 am

Hi A342,

Sorry that I misunderstood your question, you knew more already than I do.
The western hose and drogues are smaller than the Russian ones?

Size can obviously be a problem, but why would a different fuel flow rate be a problem? The probe on the receiving aicraft is nothing but a tube, isn't it?
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
MissedApproach
Posts: 678
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:12 am

RE: Indian AF Air Refueling System: Nato Or Russian?

Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:47 am

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 3):
USN tankers cannot refuel AF fighters and bombers.

They could once. USAF F-105 & F-4 were compatible with both boom/receptacle & probe/drogue systems.

F-105 probe
Can you hear me now?
 
A342
Topic Author
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:05 pm

RE: Indian AF Air Refueling System: Nato Or Russian?

Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:17 pm

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 7):
The western hose and drogues are smaller than the Russian ones?

Hose and Drogue systems:

Small western system for fighters: up to 1600 liters/hour

Big western system, mostly used for transport aircraft: up to 2400 liters/hour

Russian system: up to 2700 liters/hour.

Look at this website for information about Russian air refueling:

http://www.zvezda-npp.ru/english/06.htm

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 7):
Size can obviously be a problem, but why would a different fuel flow rate be a problem? The probe on the receiving aicraft is nothing but a tube, isn't it?

It is more than a tube. There are connectors, ventiles and such things. Looking at the differnt fuel flow rates for western and Russian systems, there could very well be differences in size for the probes and drogues.
Foe example, the Russian probe might mot fit into a western drogue as this would be too small, hence no fuel could be transferred. This may also be valid the other way round.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
BarfBag
Posts: 2374
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 7:13 am

RE: Indian AF Air Refueling System: Nato Or Russia

Fri Apr 14, 2006 4:27 pm

The six IAF IL-78MKIs use a probe and drogue setup with a Severin/UPAZ refuelling system consisting of three refuelling points - 2x underwing and one on the fuselage rear port side. The refuellng ports are standardized across various western and Russian aircraft in the fleet, from MiGs and Sukhois to Jaguars and Mirages. See http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Images/Current/AAR.html .
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: Indian AF Air Refueling System: Nato Or Russian?

Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:44 pm

Quoting MissedApproach (Reply 8):
They could once. USAF F-105 & F-4 were compatible with both boom/receptacle & probe/drogue systems.

I don't think the 105s were fitted with boom receptors, and not all Phantoms were (only from the E on I believe).

It was around that time the USAF switched from probe/drogue to boom refueling so some aircraft would have been able to accept both systems.
It was however decided that feeding a hose with a basket through the boom when needed was cheaper.
I wish I were flying
 
Stealthz
Posts: 5546
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:43 am

RE: Indian AF Air Refueling System: Nato Or Russian?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:10 pm

OK.. the facts here may be dimmed with time as it is many years since I read this.

I recall reading once that many of the support functions of Soviet military equipment, things like external power connectors, refuellng points etc (even some ammunition) was built to NATO standards(or at least to be compatable with)

Was this done because the planners of the day foresaw the day when all would be living in peaceful coexistence? Hell no, it was done so that the forces of the Soviet Union could utilise the equipment left behind as they steamrollered across Europe.

The airborne refueling systems likely fall into that category as well..not an expert on flow rates and how adjustable they are though.
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Indian AF Air Refueling System: Nato Or Russian?

Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:32 pm

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 11):
I don't think the 105s were fitted with boom receptors, and not all Phantoms were (only from the E on I believe).

It was around that time the USAF switched from probe/drogue to boom refueling so some aircraft would have been able to accept both systems.
It was however decided that feeding a hose with a basket through the boom when needed was cheaper.

Actually Missedapproach put up a photo of the F-105's probe.

But a little history here.

The USAF started using the Probe and Droge system for their aircraft refilling fighters such as the F-84 and F-100 from converted B-29 and B-50 Bombers.

However Lemay and hes Strategic Air Command wanted a higher fueling rate so in the early 1950's for their jet bombers such as the B47. So they had the boom system developed and it was employed on some of the converted bombers and on the new KC-97's they where ordering. The generals at (Tactical Air Command) where happy with the droge system which was adequate for filling the smaller fighters they operated, so their aircraft stayed with it until somebody finally got the smart idea for the Air Force to standardize on the boom system.

So a lot of times when you look at a 1950's aircraft you can tell who it was developed for SAC or TAC based on the fueling system. It isn't a fullproof method thorugh. There are examples of F-84G's with SAC with a wingtip probe for a fueling droge instead fof the SAC boom fueling system some aircraft also had. A lot of that had to do with the location the aircraft was assigned. This is because the aircraft where assigned to Korea and Japan and boom tankers where not available in those operating areas.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
HT
Posts: 5857
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 6:20 am

RE: Indian AF Air Refueling System: Nato Or Russian?

Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:06 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 9):
Small western system for fighters: up to 1600 liters/hour

I doubt that the stated flowrate given per "hour" is correct ...
Are those figures "per minute" ?
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
A342
Topic Author
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:05 pm

RE: Indian AF Air Refueling System: Nato Or Russian?

Sat Apr 22, 2006 4:44 am

Quoting HT (Reply 14):
Quoting A342 (Reply 9):
Small western system for fighters: up to 1600 liters/hour

I doubt that the stated flowrate given per "hour" is correct ...
Are those figures "per minute" ?

Oops, yes of course that´s per minute. Sorry for the mistake and thanks for correcting me.
Exceptions confirm the rule.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 5 guests