TedTAce
Topic Author
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F-22 In Heritage Formation?

Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:23 pm

ok, yeah.... the pic is REALLY cool. http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1034261/L/


But what is this picture REALLY saying???

P-51: Running clean @ probably at LEAST 75% max cont
F-15: Running clean @ probably 20-50% Mil

F-22: Running At flaps 10(ish) degrees and gawd only knows probably flight idle.

I think it's hilarious that the 22 needs to use flaps for this formation. But then again, I'm sick like that.


The following similar threads were found:

F-22 Heritage Flight Pics by Vzlet 2005-01-25 13:12:47
F-22 by JetBlue26 2001-05-07 15:17:49
F-22 Stealth Fighter by Singa_air_rulz 2001-05-19 04:06:27
F-22 Raptour : Please Help by Gdarm 2001-09-01 13:58:11
V-22 Single Engine Ops by Ziggy 2001-09-01 17:55:30

(F-22 Heritage Flight Pics by Vzlet 2005-01-25 13:12:47 looked like a thread about fake pics to me.)
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vzlet
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RE: F-22 In Heritage Formation?

Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:39 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Thread starter):
(F-22 Heritage Flight Pics by Vzlet 2005-01-25 13:12:47 looked like a thread about fake pics to me.)

Ted, I'm not sure if you're delivering a subtle compliment (i.e., that Erik Hildebrandt's photos are so good that most photographers would be unable to produce similar results), or actually casting suspicion on them as possible fakes. If you're unsure about the genuineness of these shots, you might check out some of his other work and clients.

-Mark
"That's so stupid! If they're so secret, why are they out where everyone can see them?" - my kid
 
deltadc9
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RE: F-22 In Heritage Formation?

Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:11 pm

This picture would be much cooler if there was a Phantom in there too. But is is cool, don't get me wrong.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
TedTAce
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RE: F-22 In Heritage Formation?

Sat Apr 22, 2006 2:46 am

Quoting Vzlet (Reply 1):
actually casting suspicion on them as possible fakes

You tell me when those pictures were shot, who organized all those planes with the F-22, why the angles of the aircraft in some of those shots are so disparate for a 'formation shot' and I'll GLADY eat my words. Isin't it just a TOUCH suspicious that all those shots are backlit with suspicious looking backgrounds? Maybe he shot those A/C individually and 'put them together' in the dark room, fine, ok, whatever; but I'll be stunned to find objective information (or non backlit shots) on those 'flights'.

Thanks for hijacking the thread.. I wanted speculation on the f-22 performance and I'm guessing an apparent lack of a 'need' or 'ability' for consistant "low" speed handling.
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deltadc9
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RE: F-22 In Heritage Formation?

Sat Apr 22, 2006 4:43 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 3):
Thanks for hijacking the thread.. I wanted speculation on the f-22 performance and I'm guessing an apparent lack of a 'need' or 'ability' for consistant "low" speed handling.

If that really is a cut and paste, who's to say that the Raptor was'nt on approach or something while the other two planse were shot at speed?
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
TedTAce
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RE: F-22 In Heritage Formation?

Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:53 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 4):
If that really is a cut and paste, who's to say that the Raptor was'nt on approach or something while the other two planse were shot at speed?

I guess you didn't look at the pics from the other thread... or read this one that clearly... or maybe I didn't keep my subjects seperate enough for you.

A)I was accusing the photographer in the other thread of C&P his 'alleged' photos.
B)I was not saying that the photo that launched this thread was C&P... I was remmarking on the fact that the 51 and the 15 were clean whereas apparently the 22 needs flaps to maintain this formation.
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deltadc9
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RE: F-22 In Heritage Formation?

Sat Apr 22, 2006 6:13 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 5):
I guess you didn't look at the pics from the other thread... or read this one that clearly... or maybe I didn't keep my subjects seperate enough for you.

A)I was accusing the photographer in the other thread of C&P his 'alleged' photos.
B)I was not saying that the photo that launched this thread was C&P... I was remmarking on the fact that the 51 and the 15 were clean whereas apparently the 22 needs flaps to maintain this formation.

Which leads me to believe its not real or the Raptor was going slower and the other two were flying by and it was captured at the moment they converged. Somethings up with that photo, cant put my finger on it.

Still, dont see any reason to be snippy.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
corey07850
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RE: F-22 In Heritage Formation?

Sat Apr 22, 2006 6:59 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 3):

You tell me when those pictures were shot, who organized all those planes with the F-22, why the angles of the aircraft in some of those shots are so disparate for a 'formation shot' and I'll GLADY eat my words. Isin't it just a TOUCH suspicious that all those shots are backlit with suspicious looking backgrounds? Maybe he shot those A/C individually and 'put them together' in the dark room, fine, ok, whatever; but I'll be stunned to find objective information (or non backlit shots) on those 'flights'.

The picture was taken at Sun-n-fun... Other than Airventure in Oshkosh it's probably the biggest airshow in the United States, so if the picture was fake I'm sure one of the 100,000 people that were in attendence would say something... There were two F-22's at the show, and yes the picture is real... Look at the pilots of the two jets... they are both looking at the p-51 to make sure they don't collide
 
Thorny
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RE: F-22 In Heritage Formation?

Sat Apr 22, 2006 8:03 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 2):
This picture would be much cooler if there was a Phantom in there too. But is is cool, don't get me wrong.

And an F-86 to complete the lineage.
 
checksixx
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RE: F-22 In Heritage Formation?

Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:23 am

The pics are real. I can gladly put you in touch with the F-22A Heritage Pilot if you need confirmation as he's the only F-22A Heritage Pilot.

-Check
 
MDorBust
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RE: F-22 In Heritage Formation?

Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:31 am

Just a wild guess.

Could it be that the raptors onboard systems are automatically configuring the aircraft for the appropriate lift at airspeed, while the eagle driver and the p-51 would have to manually do so... thus more likely not to configure at all but just hand fly it?
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
YeahitsK
Posts: 492
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RE: F-22 In Heritage Formation?

Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:27 pm

Quoting Thorny (Reply 8):
Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 2):
This picture would be much cooler if there was a Phantom in there too. But is is cool, don't get me wrong.

And an F-86 to complete the lineage.

You guys give me a chuckle. "This is one of the coolest things I've ever seen with my own eyes, but...."

Can't blame you for dreaming.
Let's play some Pitch...
 
corey07850
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RE: F-22 In Heritage Formation?

Sat Apr 22, 2006 1:54 pm

Quoting Thorny (Reply 8):
Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 2):
This picture would be much cooler if there was a Phantom in there too. But is is cool, don't get me wrong.

And an F-86 to complete the lineage.

Well, you should've been at Sun-n-Fun last year


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Adam Wright



Quoting YeahitsK (Reply 11):
Can't blame you for dreaming.

No need to dream, see above...
 
TedTAce
Topic Author
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RE: F-22 In Heritage Formation?

Sat Apr 22, 2006 8:10 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 10):
Just a wild guess.

Could it be that the raptors onboard systems are automatically configuring the aircraft for the appropriate lift at airspeed, while the eagle driver and the p-51 would have to manually do so... thus more likely not to configure at all but just hand fly it?

Thanks for an answer that actually makes some sense of what I was looking for in the first place.

Now to Checksixx: The sun and fun picture that started this thread, I 'd be stunned to find out that is a fake. It just amazes how an off handed remmark on a TECHNICALLY unrelated thread has so dominated this one. That being said; anything your buddy is allowed to say about the disparity in flap (and presumed throttle) settings for the picture @ sun 'n fun would be greatly appreciated. If he wants to confirm the pics from the OTHER thread are real, I suggest it be posted there as those pics were NEVER the intention of discussion for this thread.
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vzlet
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RE: F-22 In Heritage Formation?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:54 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 3):
You tell me when those pictures were shot

Going by the info on the originally referenced web page, I'd say October 20, 2004, and from Tyndall AFB.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 3):
who organized all those planes with the F-22

I can't answer that definitively for you, but I would think that Hildebrandt likely had a primary role in it. This is part of the official description of his photo book entitled "Heritage Flight":
"Renowned for his ability to bring his readers "inside" some of the most inaccessible communities in aviation, photographer and writer Erik Hildebrandt has outdone even himself by cracking the code of silence of the United States Air Force.
With over 200 original color images made exclusivly for this title, Hildebrandt was afforded unprecedented access to the newly formed USAF Heritage Flight Program.
Over the course of a single season of air shows, Hildebrandt commanded dedicated photo missions from such outstanding air-to-air camera platforms as the C-130, B-25 and P-51 Mustang which resulted in a body of work unimaginable considering the constraints of time and the weather.
"

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 3):
why the angles of the aircraft in some of those shots are so disparate for a 'formation shot'

My take on it would be that some of those disparate angles are the result of performance differences (including those that you're interested in), some are the result of the entire formation maneuvering, and some are the result of station-keeping corrections by individual pilots.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 3):
Thanks for hijacking the thread

Maybe the next item will help get things back on track:

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 3):
I wanted speculation on the f-22 performance

Here's contact information for LTC Shower, the F-22 display pilot:
Phone (757) 764-7391 / DSN 574-7391
E-mail michael.shower@langley.af.mil

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 3):
those shots are backlit with suspicious looking backgrounds

Ted, I think it's just the result of a dusk photo session.











-Mark
"That's so stupid! If they're so secret, why are they out where everyone can see them?" - my kid
 
checksixx
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RE: F-22 In Heritage Formation?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 10:32 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 13):
Now to Checksixx: The sun and fun picture that started this thread, I 'd be stunned to find out that is a fake. It just amazes how an off handed remmark on a TECHNICALLY unrelated thread has so dominated this one.

"(F-22 Heritage Flight Pics by Vzlet 2005-01-25 13:12:47 looked like a thread about fake pics to me.)"

You typed it, not me....contact Lt. Col. Shower at Vzlet's info as he gladly answers most questions and also remarked to me that we will probably see a dedicated Raptor full demo in 2008.

-Check
 
TedTAce
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RE: F-22 In Heritage Formation?

Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:32 am

Vzlet, and Checksixx, thanks for the info  Smile I can't wait to see a performance in 08. The tease at Pensacola last November was a bit much to bear especially as I had the worst cameras for the event in existance with me. Not that I think i'll have much better in 08, but to have enough time to get something for what I got will be nice.

I'll be e-mailing Mr. Shower in the next day or so after I come up with verbiage that isin't as ambigious as this thread was apparently started with.
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vzlet
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RE: F-22 In Heritage Formation?

Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:20 am

Quoting TedTAce (Thread starter):
F-22: Running At flaps 10(ish) degrees and gawd only knows probably flight idle.

I think it's hilarious that the 22 needs to use flaps for this formation.

Regarding TedTAce's original point/query:

I've only recently read that the F-22 uses "opposing" control deflections to perform the function of speed brakes and that this arangement works well enough to slow it more rapidly than an F-15 using its more conventional brake.

Having (finally!) seen an F-22 fly, it's apparent that the controls are in fact doing things that aren't typical on other planes. Here, the flaps are down and both ailerons are deflected up:
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mark Carlisle



Not quite as unusual, on this pass the ailerons are drooped with the flaps:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mark Carlisle

"That's so stupid! If they're so secret, why are they out where everyone can see them?" - my kid
 
Slcpilot
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RE: F-22 In Heritage Formation?

Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:07 pm

This kind of control surface tailoring has been around in the model sailplane world for at least ten years.

The split ailerons and flaps are called "crow". In some circumstances the flaps can be deflected 90 degrees down and the ailerons almost as much in the up direction. This makes the plane slow at an amazing rate or descend at a very steep angle without gaining speed.



"Cambering" involves deflecting the flaps and ailerons both down. This is used to add lift at slower speeds which allows for tighter thermaling turns.

In some advanced radios, elevators halves can be moved independantly of each other to aid in rolling "ailevators".

It's clear that the F-22 uses many of these same features, but probably in a way that's transparent to the pilot.

It's a little known fact that the B-2 has several stealth modes. Most pictures show the ruddervators partially open. In it's most stealthy mode, the control surfaces flick up or down, minimizing their time in an unstealthy position (deflected). The F-22 probably does the same.

Cheers!

SLCPilot
I don't like to be fueled by anger, I don't like to be fooled by lust...

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