NoUFO
Topic Author
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Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:17 am

Well, as the article states: What's another bill over $180.000?

http://pogoblog.typepad.com/pogo/2006/04/why_is_this_man.html#more
I support the right to arm bears
 
LMP737
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RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:25 am

I'm venturing to guess that the canopy on the F-22 is electrical. That's when a nitrogen bottle would come in handy.

I did find the comment "As one of our sources puts it, the episode "raises a very interesting maintainability issue." to be somewhat of a cheap shot. Show me an aircraft that has'nt had a technical issue or two when it's been first introduced.

[Edited 2006-04-22 17:57:27]
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
TedTAce
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RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:04 am

Quoting NoUFO (Thread starter):
What's another bill over $180,000?

over 200 million tax payers, almost nothing. Unfortunately that attitude in dealing with billions of dollars at a time over the past 6 years has screwed this country beyond any hope of ever being out of debt.
This space intentionally left blank
 
jutes85
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RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:11 am

The F-22 is just a big POS toy.
nothing
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:08 am

Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 3):
The F-22 is just a big POS toy.

It's called teething issues, same as any new military aircraft will have, particularly one as complex as the F-22.

You seem to have an issue with Lockheed Martin...didn't you start a thread whining about a mere 8% cost increase over JSF?

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 
 
bushpilot
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RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:03 am

I hope the problem is fixed quickly, I wonder if this will cause problems in the future with ejections. I know some in the pentagon would imagine that the F-22 doesnt need one because it will never be shot down  Yeah sure
That being said, I cant wait until they are deployed to Elmendorf AFB in ANC, the spotting will be great.
 
checksixx
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RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Sun Apr 23, 2006 10:41 am

Why would it cause problems with ejections?? Unless it was an emergency, which it wasn't, using the explosive bolts to jettison the canopy would have caused significantly more damage to the airframe and cockpit. Its fine and they did an awesome job.

--check
 
clipperhawaii
Posts: 1943
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RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Sun Apr 23, 2006 10:50 am

When the F-22 flames the first terrorist to burnt toast or turns him into haji jerkey, this incident will be forgotten.

Signed,

U.S. Taxpayers
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
AirRyan
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RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:26 am

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 4):
It's called teething issues, same as any new military aircraft will have, particularly one as complex as the F-22.

Yeah and it's not like LM has never designed a canopy before so cut them some slack!

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 7):
When the F-22 flames the first terrorist to burnt toast or turns him into haji jerkey, this incident will be forgotten.

Signed,

U.S. Taxpayers

Uh huh - the F-22 isn't needed for this Chimerical terorist Air Force that you speak of but it will be needed if tensions in Iran, China, or North Korea ever escalate into a shooting match.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:16 am

I love it! Here is a forum, supposedly by and for people interested in (and therefore, presumably knowledgeable of) military aviation and space tech.

So we get this one event and the amazing conclusions drawn from it:

Quoting NoUFO (Thread starter):
What's another bill over $180.000?

If it cost $2800 to repack the airbag in my mass-produced automobile this sounds like a bargain to me.

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 1):
Show me an aircraft that has'nt had a technical issue or two when it's been first introduced.

Absolutely correct.

First I ever personally saw was at Hamilton AFB in the late 50s when a brand-new, cutting-edge (no charge for the hidden joke there) F-104. Some minor glitch while it was being refueled and it burned itself to a crisp. I recall the F-4 having a minor failure, followed by an innocuous-appearing deviation from procedure firing a pilot through the metal canopy bow.

Hell, I even remember one (now very collectible) American car that had a motor mount that tended to break under heavy acceleration. This allowed the engine to slam over against the left wheel well, sticking the throttle wide open and ripping the brake master cylinder off the firewall, disabling the brakes. And people get all clanked up over a stuck canopy. Bet the degree of outrage over this is inversely proportional to experience and knowledge in things aeronautical.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 2):
over 200 million tax payers, almost nothing. Unfortunately that attitude in dealing with billions of dollars at a time over the past 6 years has screwed this country beyond any hope of ever being out of debt.

Ahh, the old "guns or butter" doggerel from 1980s economic doomsday books. I haven't heard that one in quite a while.

Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 3):
The F-22 is just a big POS toy.

Especially when compared with the Canadian designed and built . . .

What? The flush-riveted "pursuit" Otter?

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 4):
It's called teething issues, same as any new military aircraft will have, particularly one as complex as the F-22.

True. And so far, a good deal less expensive than the new Congressional parking structure. Last time I visited that it was nothing but a billion-dollar plus hole in the ground. Not one bucket of concrete had been poured yet. At least the F-22 is prettier than a hole in the ground. (Unlike the F-16 which had a tendence to become a hole in the ground.)

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 7):
When the F-22 flames the first terrorist to burnt toast or turns him into haji jerkey, this incident will be forgotten.

Signed,

Military expenses are a bit like fire extinguishers. I've paid quite a few coins over my adult life to keep properly charged fire extinguishers in my home and cars. I have NEVER had to use one. Money down a rathole, right?

How many people who complain about defense spending cheerfully pay life insurance premiums? Did they ever stop to consider what they personally had to do to make that worthwhile? Kind of takes the charm out of it.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 4):
teething issues

Again, exactly right. To borrow a phrase from the late Scott Crossfield, whom only 17 people on this forum apparently knew or cared anything about: "These things were just rocks in our shoes."
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
CTR
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RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Mon Apr 24, 2006 5:11 am

Did any one else notice that the frame of the F-22 canopy shown in the photos appear doctored? They are devoid of shadow and the edge along the transparency appears odd, like it was drawn in.

Could it be possible that this was actually a emergency extraction exercise performed on a mock-up or old test airframe?

Some one on the photos site wondered why they didn't use a circular saw instead on the chain saw. The F-18 and F-15 use acrylic canopy transparencies. For emergency extraction circular saws are typically used. However the F-16 and F-22 use polycarbonate canopies. When cut with a circular saw the poly likes to weld itself back together behind the saw cut. The chain saw cuts a wide enough gap to keep this from happening. It also gums up less.

Have fun,

CTR
Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
 
dl757md
Posts: 1482
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RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Mon Apr 24, 2006 5:22 am

Quoting CTR (Reply 10):
the edge along the transparency appears odd, like it was drawn in

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the appearance of these edges is due to whatever treatment that they receive to reduce the aircraft's overall radar signature.

DL757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
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RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Mon Apr 24, 2006 5:44 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 8):
Yeah and it's not like LM has never designed a canopy before so cut them some slack!

You're right, they should have just fired the damn explosive bolts and caused more damage!  Yeah sure Have you ever done anything related to engineering design? I can assure you, even the cigarette lighter in your car involves quite a bit of engineering talent...things can go wrong with new systems. Don't believe me, take a look at the much beloved F-14...strikes me as a bit of a death trap early into service eh?

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NoUFO
Topic Author
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RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Mon Apr 24, 2006 5:52 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 9):
So we get this one event and the amazing conclusions drawn from it:

Take that stick out of your a$$ and smile a bit more. Seriously.
I support the right to arm bears
 
BladeLWS
Posts: 358
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RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:10 am

Quoting CTR (Reply 10):
Especially when compared with the Canadian designed and built . . .

What? The flush-riveted "pursuit" Otter?

LMAO!
 
AirRyan
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RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:47 am

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 12):
Quoting AirRyan (Reply 8):
Yeah and it's not like LM has never designed a canopy before so cut them some slack!

You're right, they should have just fired the damn explosive bolts and caused more damage! Have you ever done anything related to engineering design? I can assure you, even the cigarette lighter in your car involves quite a bit of engineering talent...things can go wrong with new systems. Don't believe me, take a look at the much beloved F-14...strikes me as a bit of a death trap early into service eh?

I bet the canopy still wouldn't have fired had the pilot pulled the eject handle and that's the sad thing here. And lets' not kid ouselves here, how many ways does LM have to figure out how to open and close a canopy - this was probably the least significant piece of engineering on the entire aircraft and look at how cocky the LM canopy people have gotten with the JSF hinging from the front - if I'm that pilot I'm stoked at LM for failing to deliver if even just ONE F-22 with a canopy that cannot do what it's done for how many readily similar F-16 airframes and just as many as they hope JSF airframes.

This is like looking at a new Corvette on the dealer's lot and noticing that the dashboard was loose because some fat, lazy, and way overpaid UAW assembler didn't take the time to put it together right the first time - we know not all of the Corvettes are like this but still, it's not exactly positive PR material that they'll be publishing in any sales literature anytime soon, either.

But I'd still buy a new Corvette even if I have to put the thing together myself! See what I'm saying?
 
SlamClick
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RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:49 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 13):
Take that stick out of your a$$ and smile a bit more. Seriously.

You might be right.

On the other hand you just might be a person who, with nothing of substance to contribute the the discussion his own thread started, turns it to a personal attack.

Your personal style and apparent lack of any real knowledge would seem to be more at home in Non/Av.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Mon Apr 24, 2006 7:21 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 15):
I bet the canopy still wouldn't have fired had the pilot pulled the eject handle and that's the sad thing here.

You know this for a fact? Were you there?

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 15):
And lets' not kid ouselves here, how many ways does LM have to figure out how to open and close a canopy - this was probably the least significant piece of engineering on the entire aircraft and look at how cocky the LM canopy people have gotten with the JSF hinging from the front - if I'm that pilot I'm stoked at LM for failing to deliver if even just ONE F-22 with a canopy that cannot do what it's done for how many readily similar F-16 airframes and just as many as they hope JSF airframes.

Failures are going to occur, and the canopy designs are different between the F-16, F-22, and JSF. When the 757 first entered service, the f/a's had trouble opening and closing the door...it took elaborate redesign to correct the problem. Simple stuff isn't always so simple. Does that make the 757 a POS toy? (that one's more directes at Jutes than you) How about the A380's apparent laundry list of issues?

Finally, this is the only such incident to occur with the F-22 so far. If there needs to be a modification to the canopy, so be it. You seem to expect 100% reliability right off the bat...while a noble goal that any designer should strive to attain, it's not always possible. If you think LM is so damn bad at this, pull out a slide rule and some drafting paper and get crackin' on your own design.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 15):
This is like looking at a new Corvette on the dealer's lot and noticing that the dashboard was loose because some fat, lazy, and way overpaid UAW assembler didn't take the time to put it together right the first time - we know not all of the Corvettes are like this but still, it's not exactly positive PR material that they'll be publishing in any sales literature anytime soon, either.

Well if we're gonna judge an airplane by the few bits of bad PR here and there, there's a hell of a lot of failures there...and the A380...well that's it Toulouse, shut your doors, you're done!

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 
 
dl021
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RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Mon Apr 24, 2006 7:36 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 2):
over 200 million tax payers, almost nothing. Unfortunately that attitude in dealing with billions of dollars at a time over the past 6 years has screwed this country beyond any hope of ever being out of debt.

Well, since you're going to politics you need to be honest and point out one program in the last 40 years where anything was on schedule and underbudget. Seriously....name one. It's not just this administration, and the attitude of getting our defence right even if we have to spend an extra few bucks is better than trying to save a few by not correcting problems that arise.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 9):
Quoting NoUFO (Thread starter):
What's another bill over $180.000?

If it cost $2800 to repack the airbag in my mass-produced automobile this sounds like a bargain to me.

THe percentage difference is huge.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
LMP737
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RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Mon Apr 24, 2006 7:54 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 18):
Well, since you're going to politics you need to be honest and point out one program in the last 40 years where anything was on schedule and underbudget. Seriously....name one

Not to be a smart a#% but the F-14D program was ahead of schedule and under budget. Naturally it was cancelled.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
corey07850
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RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:33 pm

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 16):

Your personal style and apparent lack of any real knowledge would seem to be more at home in Non/Av.

I would've said Civ-Av, but Non-Av works ok...

I guess if I don't comment on the topic this would be deleted as a "low quality post," so I'll say that I bet the ARFF guys weren't too excited to get in their full gear including oxygen tanks and fire suits to use a reciprocating saw to slice open the canopy... Must have been hella-hot
 
dl021
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RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:50 pm

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 19):
Not to be a smart a#% but the F-14D program was ahead of schedule and under budget. Naturally it was cancelled.

OK...perhaps I should have said NEW airplane program. The "D" model was on track, but they cancelled it prior to completion of systems integration.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
checksixx
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RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:27 am

Had he pulled the handle it would have worked. The ejection sequence does not unlock the canopy before blowing it off. You could also say, "why didn't they use the canopy jettison?". Well who wants a canopy blown off and airborne to damage another portion of the airframe??

-Dan
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
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RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:47 am

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 22):
Had he pulled the handle it would have worked. The ejection sequence does not unlock the canopy before blowing it off. You could also say, "why didn't they use the canopy jettison?". Well who wants a canopy blown off and airborne to damage another portion of the airframe??

Not qualified in F-22 by a longshot, but I think there are several reasons for not doing this.

1. As has been mentioned, ejection is an extremely violent thing. A fairly high percentage of pilots who have ejected now suffer back problems. Add to that you are betting your life that the zero-zero capability is going to work exactly right. If not, you fall a hundred feet or so to concrete. Huge risk and really bad economics to bet the life of a highly trained pilot against $180K.

2. Can't really tell from the pictures but the seat might have 'canopy cutters' which would start the canopy breakage microseconds before the pilot's helmet did. We do know that the canopy is malfunctioning. Do any of us on this thread so far know whether that specific malfunction will prevent the canopy from separating during the ejection sequence? I sure as hell don't.

3. Ejections are not free. I'm quite certain that the cost of re-charging and installing the seat, repacking the parachute, cleaning up partially-burned propellant out of the cockpit, blast damage and a laundry list of other costs that had not even occurred to me would probably equal or exceed the cost of the method they chose. The ejection seat in a fighter is a device of complexity and cost probably rivaling that of a light single engine complex airplane. The parachute is to spare the pilot, the seat is going to fall a hundred feet or more onto concrete.

I'm quite sure they chose a chainsaw over the ejection seat based on their knowledge rather than simply overlooking the idea. I'm just surprised, or disappointed at the number of people here not willing to credit them with that kind of intelligence.

One last thing. I've had a door stick on an airliner. Not some cutting edge fighter made from extraterrestrial technolgies and hand-built one at a time, but a mass produced DC-9. It happens.

Perhaps the biggest critics here could do the world a favor and start designing these things. Then they could be perfect.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
NoUFO
Topic Author
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RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:24 am

SlamClick, I apologize for being so harsh. It's not that I didn't know that those things happen, nor did I want to fire a shot at the F-22 programme. The canopy mechanism, as everything else, can fail to work properly. A German Mig-29 lost its canopy in midflight, which of course is worse. Imagine sitting in a convertible with an open top at the speed of sound. I was pissed about your remarks on my alleged lack of knowledge or enthusiasm for aviation, but that's no reason to piss back at you. Again, sorry for that.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 23):
I'm quite sure they chose a chainsaw over the ejection seat based on their knowledge rather than simply overlooking the idea.

Well, the report states that they contacted LM, so what they did was most likely the best solution. As it was already said before, an ejection would not only have caused an even higher bill*, but pose a higher risk to the pilot.
So no, the fact they used a chainsaw did not really come as surprise. Let alone that LM will probably cover the expenses, not the American tax-payer.

I was surprised, though, the pilot's rescuers were wearing flame suits.
I assume the seat was disarmed, an unintentional ejection was therefore unlikely. Many fighters have fuel tanks behind the cockpit, but I guess it was more a general precautionary measure.
I support the right to arm bears
 
egronenthal
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:49 am

RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Tue Apr 25, 2006 4:40 am

More pictures, especially of cockpit interior afterwards:

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...35m+F-22A+Raptor+after+canopy.html
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
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RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Tue Apr 25, 2006 5:09 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 24):
I assume the seat was disarmed

From what little I actually know about ejection seats 'disarmed' is perhaps an overstatement. What you do, as far as I know, is put a pin in the handle so it cannot be pulled, at least without shearing the pin. But even with the pins 'in' the pilot is still sitting on a small-town 4th of July celebration.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 24):
I was surprised, though, the pilot's rescuers were wearing flame suits.

Amazing how superstitious safety managers become! Seriously, I'm sure the tales are many of fire fighters setting vehicles on fire while sawing on them. I personally saw it on local television in about 1976-77 in Los Angeles. A Mercer Airlines DC-6 had crashed on the golf course in the Sepulveda flood control basin. (The entire story of the crash is fascinating) Anyway, with all three local network feeds having cameras pointing over their shoulders, the firemen were cutting the pilots bodies out of the wreck when they set it afire. Terrible!

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 24):
Many fighters have fuel tanks behind the cockpit, but I guess it was more a general precautionary measure.

Fuel, and probably even more dangerous oxygen. Suiting up seems to be the way of it anymore. You'll notice crash scene workers wearing biohazard protection here in the US anymore.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
checksixx
Posts: 1148
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RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Tue Apr 25, 2006 5:31 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 23):
Not qualified in F-22 by a longshot, but I think there are several reasons for not doing this.

Not sure what you mean by that...I was refrencing a post above stating that the canopy may not blow off during ejection. In fact it would and would work well. I was not advocating its use in this situation.

-Check

[Edited 2006-04-24 22:34:11]
 
checksixx
Posts: 1148
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:39 pm

RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Tue Apr 25, 2006 5:35 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 23):
Can't really tell from the pictures but the seat might have 'canopy cutters'

Thats a negative.

-Check
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:05 am

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 27):
Not sure what you mean by that...

I meant two things:

1. I am not qualified in the F-22 or any other fighter.

2. I have an unfortunate tendency to omit the first person singular pronoun when it only requires two keystrokes [shift] and [i] and would often make my meaning clear.

I was about to offer an opinion and the only basis I had for it was having looked at a couple of ejection seats, having read a few issues of AW&ST and having flown maybe ten thousand hours with guys who were familiar including a dozen or more who'd actually had the ride up the rails. Their war stories - my ground school.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
pilotpip
Posts: 2820
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RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Mon May 01, 2006 4:38 pm

It's only been flying since 1989, I'm sure they'll get it right sooner or later  Smile

Sorry guys, I couldn't help myself
DMI
 
CTR
Posts: 299
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:57 am

RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Tue May 02, 2006 10:57 am

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 30):
It's only been flying since 1989, I'm sure they'll get it right sooner or later

Like many people you are making the false assumtion that the F-22 that was flown in competition against the F-23 16 years ago is the same aircraft now in production. In reality they are very, very different aircraft.

That is why it took 3 years to build the prototype, but more than a decade later to go into production.

Have fun,

CTR
Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
 
Oroka
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RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Tue May 02, 2006 4:09 pm

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 9):
Especially when compared with the Canadian designed and built . . .

What? The flush-riveted "pursuit" Otter?

You got a problem with someone, have the grey matter to make jest at them, not the country of millions of people.

BTW, we had a very high scale military aviation program at Avro Canada. Some of its employees had a big hand in putting your astronauts on the moon. Kinda funny, one of the USA's biggest accomplishments was partly designed by a Canadian, and put into space by a German rocket engineer.  biggrin 


I say they should forget the Billions spent, scrap the F-22A over this issue, and buy Eurofighters! Damn POS F-22A, good for nothing! I am currently visualizing a F-22A gobbleing up fighter pilots with its canopy ala pack-man.
 
LMP737
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RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Tue May 02, 2006 10:43 pm

Quoting Oroka (Reply 32):
I say they should forget the Billions spent, scrap the F-22A over this issue, and buy Eurofighters! Damn POS F-22A, good for nothing! I am currently visualizing a F-22A gobbleing up fighter pilots with its canopy ala pack-man.

Oh yes, flush billions of dollars down the drain. Then spend billions more on an aircraft that is less capable than the F-22. Also, if you are going to call the F-22 a "POS" you should at least have some supporting evidence.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
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RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Tue May 02, 2006 11:49 pm

Quoting Oroka (Reply 32):
have the grey matter to make jest at them

Okay. here are a few observations for you:

Quoting Oroka (Reply 32):
I am currently visualizing a F-22A gobbleing up fighter pilots with its canopy ala pack-man.

It is "an F-22" not "a F-22." Say it aloud a couple of times and see if it doesn't sound better. Ask a friend with an education if you don't trust my 'gray matter.'

It is G-O-B-B-L-I-N-G, we drop the "e" when we add "ing" to form the participle.

It is "à la" (two words) and a fat lot of good bilingualism seems to have done you. Unless, of course you meant to abbreviate Alabama in which case the first letter should have been upper case, and we have pretty much dropped the three-letter abbreviations in favor of the two-letter postal ones.

It is P-A-C [space] M-A-N unless there is some new video game involving rucksacks.

Now as to your observation of the obvious:

Quoting Oroka (Reply 32):
BTW, we had a very high scale military aviation program at Avro Canada. Some of its employees had a big hand in putting your astronauts on the moon. Kinda funny, one of the USA's biggest accomplishments was partly designed by a Canadian, and put into space by a German rocket engineer.

May I point out that it is well known, often stated, and otherwise a cliché that the US is a nation of immigrants. The first thing the Mayflower company noticed was that the Wampanoag didn't have much of a space program, so they began shopping around for Germans. Well, not right away, they had a few things to do first.

So, the Canadian aerospace industry is composed of nothing but native Canadians - or does it have a few immigrants too? How about it? Is it really the invention of the Abenaki or the Kwakiutl?

"Avro?" Sounds suspiciously like the creation of one A. V. Roe, an English gentleman. You know, like DeHavilland. English.

Quoting Oroka (Reply 32):
I say they should forget the Billions spent, scrap the F-22A over this issue, and buy Eurofighters!

Well, sounds like you believe what the illegal aliens are chanting. No, you can't vote here.

The Eurofighter may be a fine weapon but if history has taught us anything it is that, in case of war, any given nation of Europe is as likely to be our enemy (or worse - neutral) as to be our ally.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
MissedApproach
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Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:12 am

RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Wed May 03, 2006 7:11 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 34):
"Avro?" Sounds suspiciously like the creation of one A. V. Roe, an English gentleman.

Yup, established in 1945 as A.V. Roe (Canada) Ltd.

DeHavilland is pronounced "Bombardier" now, at least in Canada.
Can you hear me now?
 
Oroka
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Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:37 am

RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Wed May 03, 2006 2:12 pm

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 33):
Also, if you are going to call the F-22 a "POS" you should at least have some supporting evidence

Here is my supporting evidence:




This pilot obviously is not impressed with this aircraft. His desire to have access to a superior aircraft, say a Eurofighter, Gripen, Otter, cardboard box, is clearly stated. More so, he has to go potty.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 34):
It is G-O-B-B-L-I-N-G, we drop the "e" when we add "ing" to form the participle.

Sorry, I speak english, not american. In english 'gobbling', as you put it, is spelled with a 'e'. Look it up in a proper 'english' dictionary, it is next to the word 'sarcasm'.

Seriously, you honestly thought that I think the F-22A is a POS and should be scrapped? Atleast you went after me with your childish grammer check routine rather than a whole country. I honestly couldnt care if there is a 'e' in gobbeling, or if I should have used 'an' rather than 'a' when I just said "...if there is a 'e' in gobbeling".

So I am going to go sit in a corner, with my state-of-the-art Avro DeHavilland cardboard box, and my disgruntled F-22A pilot buddy, and my little Canadian flag, and my sever grammer thrashing, and my distasteful use the the word 'and', and I am going to dream of the day I can be American!


Sigh...

 
NoUFO
Topic Author
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RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Wed May 03, 2006 2:41 pm

Quoting Oroka (Reply 36):

I support the right to arm bears
 
David L
Posts: 8547
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Wed May 03, 2006 9:52 pm

Quoting Oroka (Reply 36):
Sorry, I speak english, not american. In english 'gobbling', as you put it, is spelled with a 'e'. Look it up in a proper 'english' dictionary,

Really? So what kind of English do we speak in the UK, where it's spelt "gobbling"?

Quoting Oroka (Reply 36):
Here is my supporting evidence:

So, nothing that hasn 't been addressed above then.

Quoting MissedApproach (Reply 35):
DeHavilland is pronounced "Bombardier" now, at least in Canada.

And I believe Canadian/German immigrants who helped put the USA in space is pronounced "NASA" now (sorry, MissedApproach, not getting at you!).  Smile
 
LMP737
Posts: 4809
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Wed May 03, 2006 11:04 pm

Quoting Oroka (Reply 36):
Sorry, I speak english, not american. In english 'gobbling', as you put it, is spelled with a 'e'. Look it up in a proper 'english' dictionary, it is next to the word 'sarcasm'.

Seriously, you honestly thought that I think the F-22A is a POS and should be scrapped? Atleast you went after me with your childish grammer check routine rather than a whole country. I honestly couldnt care if there is a 'e' in gobbeling, or if I should have used 'an' rather than 'a' when I just said "...if there is a 'e' in gobbeling".

Well I actually did think you were being serious. Mainly because you're knowledge of aviation matters seems to be a bit limited.

By the way if you are going to go after me about my "childish grammer" you could at least spell it correctly.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
Oroka
Posts: 1075
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:37 am

RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Wed May 03, 2006 11:45 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 38):
Really? So what kind of English do we speak in the UK, where it's spelt "gobbling"?

Did you look in the dictionary next to 'sarcasm'? It is not spelled with an 'e'. It was a small jab at the fact that in the USA, they speak 'American', as ruled by a judge, not English.

Quoting David L (Reply 38):
So, nothing that hasn 't been addressed above then.

Sure it has, the fact that it was dumb sarcasm, but it seems that people here are so quickly to take offence, they miss a little humor, even with a silly animated gif.

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 39):
Well I actually did think you were being serious. Mainly because you're knowledge of aviation matters seems to be a bit limited.

I am quite knowledgeable with aviation, no I am not an expert, but I know quite a bit, esp with fighter aircraft. I was dumbing down my post, sarcasm, in response to all the people who poo-poo the F-22A cause it costs so much but don't work properly. Nothing that complicated is going to work perfectly for a while. They are going to have to go back and look at the locking mechanism to see what went wrong, and possibly make modifications to prevent this from happening again in the future.

I was watching the YF-22 back in the eairly 90s, following its progress, looking for new info, which was hard to find without the internet.


People around here are so easily excited! Must come with the aviation mindset...? Atleast now I know where to go if I need someone to proof read a report Big grin
 
SlamClick
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RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Wed May 03, 2006 11:58 pm

Quoting Oroka (Reply 36):
Sorry, I speak english, not american. In english 'gobbling', as you put it, is spelled with a 'e'. Look it up in a proper 'english' dictionary, it is next to the word 'sarcasm'.

Seriously, you honestly thought that I think the F-22A is a POS and should be scrapped? Atleast you went after me with your childish grammer check routine rather than a whole country. I honestly couldnt care if there is a 'e' in gobbeling, or if I should have used 'an' rather than 'a' when I just said "...if there is a 'e' in gobbeling".

So I am going to go sit in a corner, with my state-of-the-art Avro DeHavilland cardboard box, and my disgruntled F-22A pilot buddy, and my little Canadian flag, and my sever grammer thrashing, and my distasteful use the the word 'and', and I am going to dream of the day I can be American!

Obviously you are not much better at sarcasm than you are at grammAr and spelling. The above reply is ample evidence of either inferior education or intellect. Which of those is the case does not really matter does it.

Quoting Oroka (Reply 36):
I honestly couldnt care if . . .

If you mean that (and are not just being childishly petulant) then you have no credibility remaining here at all. These things do matter, grammar and spelling are not just pedantry. Your ability to write a language correctly exactly reflects your ability to read that language. Since ALL other knowledge comes to us through our language a reasonable person must assume that your comprehension of ALL other fields of study is as flawed as your understanding of your language.

"It is only the ignorant who despise education."
- Publilius Syrus
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
Oroka
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RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Thu May 04, 2006 12:10 pm

Your are so right there SlamClick, my disregard of perfect grammar and spelling on a web board filled with amateurs, teenagers, and a light... excuse me, LITE, peppering of professionals is strong proof that I am a invalid. Shake your finger at me a bit more, scold me for my unprofessional use of the English... excuse me, AMERICAN language, and you just give me more amusement. No, I really couldn't care about a misspelled word here or there, I am PAYING to post here cause I enjoy it, and I enjoy talking to other aviation enthusiasts about aviation. I made a point of not correcting people's minor spelling mistakes because it is petty, and not worth the hassle if I understood what was being said.

I do care about accurate information, and I found it funny that the F-22A was humorously called a POS cause of a minor issue, and I exaggerated on that silly point, expecting people to find it funny. It is not funny when people start making knocks at your country even thought it is completely unwarranted. That is low. I am trying to explain my point here, like a grown up, using the spell check a bit more, and defuse the situation. Is a few small grammar mistakes really worth all this belly aching? How about we talk about the F-22A, speculate why this malfunction occured, and enjoy our time here?
 
MigFan
Posts: 710
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:50 am

RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Wed May 10, 2006 3:10 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 9):
If it cost $2800 to repack the airbag in my mass-produced automobile this sounds like a bargain to me.

Wow! What do you drive? You may want to consider deactivating the airbag...

If my office was in the cockpit of an F-22, plastic surgery would be needed to remove my smile!

/M
UH-60's suck!!!
 
checksixx
Posts: 1148
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:39 pm

RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Wed May 10, 2006 8:08 am

Quoting Oroka (Reply 40):
I am quite knowledgeable with aviation, no I am not an expert, but I know quite a bit, esp with fighter aircraft. I was dumbing down my post, sarcasm, in response to all the people who poo-poo the F-22A cause it costs so much but don't work properly. Nothing that complicated is going to work perfectly for a while.

You posted above on your little toon you made the figure of $338million per jet. Anyone knowledgeable would know that the R&D costs are NEVER factored when quoting the price per airframe. The Raptor cost per airframe was up to $138million last month due to the extension of the production line.

-Check
 
CTR
Posts: 299
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:57 am

RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Wed May 10, 2006 10:51 am

Quoting Oroka (Reply 42):
How about we talk about the F-22A, speculate why this malfunction occured, and enjoy our time here?

In a prior life (Reagan build up years) I designed canopys for fighter aircraft. If I were to wager a guess on what went wrong it would be canopy distortion from differential thermal expansion between the polycarbonate transparency and the canopy frame.

On trainer F-16s at extreem temperatures the canopy latches can move over 3/4 inch in respect to their retainers. This can not only prevent the canopy latching but can also prevent it from opening.

The F-22 canopy design is unique because it combines the stealth requirements of the F-117 with the unrestricted field of vision of the one piece F-16 transpariency (no winshield frame).

To create the flat sides of the F-117 canopy, multiple flat transpariencies are assembled into a rigid frame. The frame maintains the stealthy shape of the canopy under cockpit pressure and thermal effects. Field of vision however is very restricted.

The cross section of the F-16 canopy is circular for two reasons. It creates excellent over the side vision and it provides the perfect structural shape to resist cockpit pressure.

To eliminate the F-117 vision restricting frames and maintain the canopys stealthy shape under cockpit pressure, Lockheed increased the thickness of the transparency. The very thick transparency I believe is distorting under temperature resulting in the difficulty in closing and opening.

Just by guess

CTR
Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Wed May 10, 2006 12:15 pm

Quoting CTR (Reply 45):
CTR

And here there are folks who think engineering a cockpit canopy is supposed to be easy.  Yeah sure

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 
 
Oroka
Posts: 1075
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:37 am

RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Thu May 11, 2006 12:38 pm

Quoting CTR (Reply 45):
You posted above on your little toon you made the figure of $338million per jet. Anyone knowledgeable would know that the R&D costs are NEVER factored when quoting the price per airframe.

Sorry, it was the first price I found on google. I blame google.  Wink Just joking. I never said I know everything... just quite knowledgeable. Obviously the development costs vs per unit costs are not specifically one of them.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 46):
If I were to wager a guess on what went wrong it would be canopy distortion from differential thermal expansion between the polycarbonate transparency and the canopy frame.

Most valuable post all thread. Thank-you.
 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Thu May 11, 2006 2:27 pm

Quoting Oroka (Reply 47):
Most valuable post all thread. Thank-you.

I'm flattered, but all credit should go to CTR.  Wink

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 
 
Oroka
Posts: 1075
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:37 am

RE: Pilot Stuck In An F-22a

Fri May 12, 2006 12:52 pm

Oops, bit of a blunder on my part.

CTR, thanks for the insite. Boeing4ever, thanks for pointing that out.

I also found out that 'oops' is acceptable to the spellcheck  Wink

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