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HAWK21M
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IAF 126 Plane Order

Fri May 26, 2006 6:02 pm

Whats the News on the Indian Air Force [IAF] 126 plane order.
When will the Type be decided.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
MigFan
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Fri May 26, 2006 8:22 pm

Probably the BAE Hawk.
UH-60's suck!!!
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Sat May 27, 2006 12:39 am

Not the Trainer version.Thats the HAWK
Was talking of the Combat version.[F-16,F-18,Mig29,Su30,Mirage 2000].
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Lumberton
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Sat May 27, 2006 8:27 am

The only updates I've seen are several articles in the Indian press commenting on Boeing offering the Super Hornet. Nothing other than that....
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
tu204
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Sun May 28, 2006 3:47 pm

HAWK21M, how come the IAF is not looking at the MiG-29OVT?
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
A342
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Mon May 29, 2006 11:38 pm

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 4):
HAWK21M, how come the IAF is not looking at the MiG-29OVT?

Well they are certainly looking at the MiG-29M, which has many parts in common with the -29K they've ordered. And why shouldn't they consider the OVT ? You would believe they want the best aircraft on the market.

BTW, Tu204, welcome to my RU list !
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Tue May 30, 2006 11:47 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 5):
You would believe they want the best aircraft on the market

And also an Uninterrupted/Non Sactions Supply of Spares.Thats what gives the Russians & French an Edge.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
A342
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Wed May 31, 2006 3:38 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 6):
And also an Uninterrupted/Non Sactions Supply of Spares.Thats what gives the Russians & French an Edge.
regds
MEL

That's true, and IMO, one thing doesn't contradict the other one in this case !
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Wed May 31, 2006 11:15 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 7):
That's true, and IMO, one thing doesn't contradict the other one in this case !

If the US can give the same assurance.Maybe.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
md90fan
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:00 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 5):
You would believe they want the best aircraft on the market.

What is wrong with the CIS birds?
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Fri Jun 09, 2006 3:18 am

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 9):
What is wrong with the CIS birds

Not sure if its true.But I heard that the Maintenance Manuals are not well documentated in English like the US ones.
regds
MEL
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Devilfish
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Fri Jun 09, 2006 3:46 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 6):

And also an Uninterrupted/Non Sactions Supply of Spares.Thats what gives the Russians & French an Edge.



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 8):

If the US can give the same assurance.Maybe.

From what I gather, the F-16, although of the right size and capabilities (cost?) is out of the running because it is also operated by Pakistan, with two of the embargoed examples recently delivered. It appears a manufacturer cannot be a supplier to both countries at the same time. The Super Hornet, Typhoon and Rafale were added to the list although these are a bit heavier and in a different class as the Sukhois. From another thread, the Gripen seems to have lost favor - with the strongest contenders being the MiG and Mirage. As for sanctions, I don't know.
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HAWK21M
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:50 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 11):
It appears a manufacturer cannot be a supplier to both countries at the same time

Whats the reasoning.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Devilfish
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:44 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 12):
Whats the reasoning.

It could be seen as playing both sides on a field, and would make for a strenuous trust relationship between client and supplier. BTW, I had read pretty much the same conclusion re LM in another thread, although I can't remember which.

Namaste,
DF

[Edited 2006-06-09 20:49:07]
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HAWK21M
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:34 am

When is the Desicion Date.
regds
MEL
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Devilfish
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:59 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 14):
When is the Desicion Date.

Sorry, I think you're in a better position than me to know that. Maybe others who regularly contribute to the Indian Aviation threads will have the information.

DF
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HAWK21M
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:08 pm

There was an Interview with the Chief of the IAF yesterday....His reply was Very Soon.  Smile
regds
MEL
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Thumper
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:03 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 5):
Well they are certainly looking at the MiG-29M, which has many parts in common with the -29K they've ordered. And why shouldn't they consider the OVT ? You would believe they want the best aircraft on the market.

They may want the best aircraft out there but I doubt that the US is going to sell them any F-22's. I would think there best bet would be the Mig 's. Certainly not the Super Hornet.
 
A342
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:27 pm

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 9):
What is wrong with the CIS birds?

Nothing ! I meant that the MiG-29 is one of the best fighters on the market, not the opposite !

Quoting Thumper (Reply 17):
They may want the best aircraft out there but I doubt that the US is going to sell them any F-22's.

I have my doubts about the F-22's capabilities. This focusing on stealth capabilities does not bring big advantages.

For the air superiority role, they have the Su-30MKI.

I meant they want the best aircraft in the light fighter market. In this category, IMO, the MiG-29OVT is the most agile aircraft, and the newer versions have much improved ground attack capabilities.
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HAWK21M
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:55 am

Quoting Thumper (Reply 17):
I doubt that the US is going to sell them any F-22's

Wasn't The F-22 considered too.
regds
MEL
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Devilfish
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:56 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 16):
There was an Interview with the Chief of the IAF yesterday....His reply was Very Soon. Smile

That's good news. Slightly off-topic, the June 2006 AFM also mentions a number of "new-build" Jaguars in cooperation with local industry. Any details?
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HAWK21M
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:41 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 20):
the June 2006 AFM also mentions a number of "new-build" Jaguars in cooperation with local industry. Any details?

Not heard of any Jaguars lately.
regds
MEL
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art
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:58 am

Anyone know the prospects of the Typhoon / Rafale? If these are MiG21 replacements, what roles are assigned to the MiG's and what's the breakdown (eg 40% air defence / 60% ground attack)?
 
deltadc9
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:08 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 18):
I have my doubts about the F-22's capabilities. This focusing on stealth capabilities does not bring big advantages.

The F-22's "focus" is not on stealth. The F-22 project charter was to take everything good from the F-15 and improve where possible and add new tech to it. More stealth was added as it is to all new US fighter aircraft designs, as was supercruise, and thrust vectoring. If anything the latter two of the three was the focus, because stealth is a default requirement.

As for it not bringing big advantages, that is not correct at all.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 19):
Wasn't The F-22 considered too.

No decision has been made to export the F-22 to anybody, not even the UK or Israel. The F-35 is tricky enough to agree upon.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:14 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 23):
No decision has been made to export the F-22 to anybody, not even the UK or Israel.

Wasn't it offered during GWB visit to New Delhi this Year.
regds
MEL
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Lumberton
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:26 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 24):
Wasn't it offered during GWB visit to New Delhi this Year.

Not as far as I know. I would have certainly remembered reading about this if it was published.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 23):
No decision has been made to export the F-22 to anybody, not even the UK or Israel. The F-35 is tricky enough to agree upon.

I think this is still correct. My bet for the first foreign sales of the F-22: Japan.
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:39 pm


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mark Carlisle


I think the US Cong nod on the Indo-US deal might influence this.If it goes through.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
deltadc9
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:31 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 25):
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 24):
Wasn't it offered during GWB visit to New Delhi this Year.

Not as far as I know. I would have certainly remembered reading about this if it was published.

More likely it was the F-35 or new F-15's. The new F-15's are superior to any F-15 we have right now in the US.

I cant imagine the red tape involved in DC to get the F-22 sold to India. Look at the problems getting the F-35 to the UK, and it is to the F-22 what the F-16 is to the F-15.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
Lumberton
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Fri Jun 23, 2006 6:41 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 26):
I think the US Cong nod on the Indo-US deal might influence this.If it goes through.

I may be misconstruing your post but if you mean a sale of the F-22, sorry, it won't happen soon, if ever. I suspect you know the politics better than I. If you want you can search the past threads where we had a go at speculating who would be offered this aircraft if it goes up for sale to countries outside the USAF. My "shoot from the hip" reply was: UK, Japan, Singapore, and Australia. No others. The UK has Typhoon, so that isn't going to happen. If the F-22 were to become a condition for this sale, the U.S. would pass. Look what just happened in Turkey with their helicopter competiton. The Turks--and it was their right to demand this (after all it's their money!)--stipulated that the winning entry would have to come with the source code. The U.S. simply passed on the bid (and that's our right). There is a limit....
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Fri Jun 23, 2006 9:23 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 28):
I may be misconstruing your post but if you mean a sale of the F-22, sorry, it won't happen soon

When is the US Cong deciding on the Ind-US Nuclear Deal..I think its this Tuesday.
Is that correct.
regds
MEL
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aseem
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:03 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 29):
When is the US Cong deciding on the Ind-US Nuclear Deal..I think its this Tuesday.

They've decided in favour of it.
ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
 
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Fri Jun 30, 2006 6:50 pm

Quoting Aseem (Reply 30):
They've decided in favour of it.

1st Hurdle Tackled.
regds
MEL
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deltadc9
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:53 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 28):
UK, Japan, Singapore, and Australia

Singapore, I would have never thought of that one. I was thinking maybe Israel, Taiwan or South Korea though. This is partly based on who is getting the new F-15 and other former tier one equipment.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
Lumberton
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:58 pm

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 32):
I was thinking maybe Israel, Taiwan or South Korea though

Personally, I don't think Israel is an "automatic" recipient anymore (note I didn't say "sale"). Taiwan, IMO, never happen. Of course they could afford it, but it's political dynamite. South Korea is one that I hadn't considered, but I find them balking at the cost.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
deltadc9
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:19 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 33):
Personally, I don't think Israel is an "automatic" recipient anymore (note I didn't say "sale"). Taiwan, IMO, never happen. Of course they could afford it, but it's political dynamite. South Korea is one that I hadn't considered, but I find them balking at the cost.

The unit costs go down as production numbers go up, but yes it is a put off. Personally, I wonder if this is is like the F-117, B1, B2, etc., something we might not export at all, ever.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
Devilfish
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:28 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 33):

Personally, I don't think Israel is an "automatic" recipient anymore (note I didn't say "sale").

In AirRyan's new thread, the ISDAF procurement chief mentioned that they would be happy to equip with 24 F-22s, but the US's refusal to sell and the US$200M ea. pricetag were a problem. http://www.airliners.net/discussions/military/read.main/48693
He also foresaw no problems with the source codes for the $5B 100 JSF deal they were eyeing.

[Edited 2006-06-30 22:45:08]
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:32 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 25):
My bet for the first foreign sales of the F-22: Japan.

The only Country the US would/ is considering selling the F-22 to is Japan, Japan is the only Country who could use the F-22 to buffer against China's massive Military build up.

The US certainly will not sell the F-22 to India because it would be such an insult to Pakistan, who we need to fight Al Qaeda.
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HAWK21M
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:43 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 36):
The US certainly will not sell the F-22 to India because it would be such an insult to Pakistan, who we need to fight Al Qaeda

I think its high time Dimplomacy does not link Everything to Pakistan being India Centric.
regds
MEL
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Devilfish
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:03 am

Quoting Aseem (Reply 30):
They've decided in favour of it.



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 31):
1st Hurdle Tackled.

Update:
U.S. House of Representatives Approves U.S.-India Nuclear Deal! It was only last Wednesday, July 26 that the measure was passed by a vote of 359 - 68.
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi....RMo41MOa9dUAAHN9xZQ&modele=jdc_34

That's one stumbling block out of the way. Truly, it was a big wrench. Getting warmer.....
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RAPCON
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Sat Jul 29, 2006 3:06 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 16):
There was an Interview with the Chief of the IAF yesterday....His reply was Very Soon.

When an IAF Chief of Staff says that we can all call his bluff and say that he's full of s**t. The Indian military procurement process is slower than a sloth.

Correction: The only thing slower than a sloth or the Indian military procurement process, is the Indian military R&D!
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Devilfish
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Sat Jul 29, 2006 6:40 am

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 39):
The Indian military procurement process is slower than a sloth.

Relative to Replies 7 and 28 in the Pakistan Arms Package ( Details Of Latest F-16 Offer To Pakistan... (by AirRyan Jul 7 2006 in Military Aviation & Space Flight) ) LM is reportedly working to define the next generation F-16, based mainly on India's requirements. It is said to combine the best of Blocks 50 and 60 with elements of the F-22 and F-35. http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...eed+works+to+define+next+F-16.html

This should speed up the process somewhat.  Embarrassment  crossfingers 
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Lumberton
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:19 am

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 39):
Correction: The only thing slower than a sloth or the Indian military procurement process, is the Indian military R&D!

Well, there is Qatar Airlines bring their A350 and 777 deals to closure....
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:22 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 38):
That's one stumbling block out of the way. Truly, it was a big wrench. Getting warmer.....

Two Steps to go.The Last one of GWB Signature should not matter so that leave One Step.
regds
MEL
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RAPCON
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Sat Jul 29, 2006 9:38 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 42):
Two Steps to go.The Last one of GWB Signature should not matter so that leave One Step.
regds

India is a soverign country and can do what it wants, and purchase what weapons it likes. But India nees to understand that there are consequences to every action. Weapons purchase is not like going to a bazaar where you can haggle with the seller. There are no snake-charmers or fakkirs in the weapons business....unless you're dealing with the Russians or Chicoms.

The article below demonstrates the sort of behavior by India that, if it does not change, will result in India purchasing more increasingly obsolete Russian stuff, while we end up supplying her "adversaries":

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2006/07/28/AR2006072801615.html
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Devilfish
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:36 am

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 43):
The article below demonstrates the sort of behavior by India that, if it does not change, will result in India purchasing more increasingly obsolete Russian stuff, while we end up supplying her "adversaries":

That's certainly the kind of duplicity which could jeopardize this deal. It should be clear that it's not an "agreement at whatever cost." Although defeated at first attempt, the gentleman from Mass. could try again as he did for the Pakistan deal.

BTW, isn't Boeing working to have Israeli companies do some work on the F/A 18 for their bid, to go around the restrictions - mainly because of good Israeli-Indian industrial relations?
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
BarfBag
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Sun Jul 30, 2006 5:03 am

So, umm, why would US actually care to sell us anything when we're apparently neither so competent at procuring anything, nor inclined to toe the US line when they go apeshit at some nation ? Why not close the books and pull out the Boeing/LM reps from New Delhi already ? I've already mentioned we'll always do what's in our interests, not what's in the US interest. The US attitude to Iran is its own hysteria, and it does nothing more than provoke the ruffian at the helm in Tehran to do more stupid things.

Further, that article is a hatchet job at this point. There's no mention of what companies were involved, or what parts. Dual use technology is much too ambiguous to be authoritatively claimed as 'missile parts'. The India-US deal has seen plenty of red herrings in the past.

Why is it that the US requires that we stop dealing with Iran in every manner, never mind the fact we have cordial ties with them. Do you *seriously* expect us to deny them port calls, help with infrastructure and other kinds of international ties just because they're the US' favourite baddie now ?

If the US does not like the fact that despite our own disagreement with their weapons program, we will continue to further our ties with Iran, it really ought to back out from selling us arms, instead of giving us gratuitous advice on how to run our foreign policy. The US needs to remember it is one of multiple sellers here, and we are the buyer. If it doesn't like what we do, its upto you to just walk away and sell to someone else.

Ties may be on the upswing, but the US really doesn't seem to grok what it means when India says it does things its own way. Being an ally doesn't mean we do your bidding, but that we don't do anything against you just for the sake of it. If our interests come in the way, we pursue our path. If anything, the Russians have had a better relationship with us because they didn't have as much a problem with this as the apparently US does.
 
RAPCON
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:10 pm

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 45):
Being an ally doesn't mean we do your bidding,

India and the US are not "allies".

Not by any stretch of the immagination. India and the US may have friendly, peaceful relations, but we are not allies in any way or form. And that status will not change for a long long time.

UK, AUS, Canada, Israel, Japan, the NATO gang are allies (depending on the time/day one can make an certain exceptions for Fr/Sp/Gr/Tk) .

Now compare that type of relationship that exists between the above countries with the US, and the one that exists between the US and India.

Huge difference, eh?

India is as much an "ally" of the US as is Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Argentina, New Zealand, etc, etc, etc. Those are "friendly" nations. But they are not allies.
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greaser
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:25 pm

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 46):
Now compare that type of relationship that exists between the above countries with the US, and the one that exists between the US and India.

Right now, the US haS an amiable relation with them. Everyone knows when the shit hits the fan, India will not be behind us unless their interests are at stake, especially when we have a friendly relationship with Pakistan. India views the US as a irritance to their military ops, as well as their actions in Sri Lanka.
Now you're really flying
 
BarfBag
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:01 pm

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 46):
India and the US are not "allies".

Excellent. And I agree that'll never be the case either. Therefore you agree that the US shouldn't go around making demands on how we run our ties with other nations, or for that matter, should you suggest how we ought negotiate with anyone, including with the US. If that affects American chances to sell stuff to us, by all means back out; it's your own laws that stand in the way. The US is by no means the only seller.
 
greaser
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RE: IAF 126 Plane Order

Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:43 pm

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 48):
Therefore you agree that the US shouldn't go around making demands on how we run our ties with other nations, or for that matter, should you suggest how we ought negotiate with anyone, including with the US. If that affects American chances to sell stuff to us, by all means back out; it's your own laws that stand in the way. The US is by no means the only seller.

The US, and ANY OTHER country will pressure any gov'ts decisions according to their global and local interests. Fact of life. India does it too.
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