socal
Posts: 464
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2005 9:20 pm

Since The 80's Most Air To Air Kills......

Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:14 pm

What US Aircraft has the most Air to Air kills since the 80's ?
I Love HNL.............
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7798
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: Since The 80's Most Air To Air Kills......

Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:31 pm

My guess would be the F-16. But I really don't think there have been a lot of air-air kills since the 80's. US Navy F-14's shot down a few Lybian Mig's in the mid 80's and I don't think there were a lot of air to air kills in Gulf War I.

[Edited 2006-06-11 05:39:25]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
11Bravo
Posts: 1679
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:54 am

RE: Since The 80's Most Air To Air Kills......

Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:17 pm

F-15 Eagle without question

33 kills in the Gulf War
4 kills in the Kosovo Campaign
WhaleJets Rule!
 
MissedApproach
Posts: 678
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:12 am

RE: Since The 80's Most Air To Air Kills......

Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:24 pm

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 2):
F-15 Eagle without question

I'd agree, plus they should have a few more kills with the Isrealis.
Can you hear me now?
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Since The 80's Most Air To Air Kills......

Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:27 pm

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 2):
F-15 Eagle without question

33 kills in the Gulf War
4 kills in the Kosovo Campaign

Don't forget two US Army UH-60 Black Hawks over northern Iraq in 1994.  Yeah sure

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
Thorny
Posts: 1508
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:44 am

RE: Since The 80's Most Air To Air Kills......

Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:31 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 4):
Don't forget two US Army UH-60 Black Hawks over northern Iraq in 1994.

Yeah, and an AH-64 flown by an O-6 took out a bunch of his own guys on the ground, didn't it? The Air Force doesn't have a monopoly on friendly fire.
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Since The 80's Most Air To Air Kills......

Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:19 am

Quoting Thorny (Reply 5):
Yeah, and an AH-64 flown by an O-6 took out a bunch of his own guys on the ground, didn't it? The Air Force doesn't have a monopoly on friendly fire.

What's with the 'tude?

No need to get so defensive - I wasn't sh*tting on the USAF's parade. That incident was as much the fault of the UH-60 pilots, as it was the F-15 drivers. Those helicopters failed to properly set their IFF codes and neglected Army SOP. That event was a cascade of failures on both sides and was totally avoidable.

So chill dude.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
LY744
Posts: 5185
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 11:55 pm

RE: Since The 80's Most Air To Air Kills......

Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:03 am

Quoting MissedApproach (Reply 3):
I'd agree, plus they should have a few more kills with the Isrealis.

A few = about 60. Over 50 of those in the first half of the 1980's.


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Since The 80's Most Air To Air Kills......

Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:21 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 6):
That incident was as much the fault of the UH-60 pilots, as it was the F-15 drivers

The investigation indicated that the AWACS controller misdirected the BVR intercept and he was held responsible, IIRC.

The Israelis have the greatest number of kills in the 1980's with the F-15 leading the pack.

Since the USAF has entered combat in the 90's the F-15 has the most kills. If I recall correctly the only non-F-15 kill was by an F-16 during the Kosovo conflict when a Dutch bird took down a MiG. Reliable observers did say that the Italians had a pair of F-104's on CAP headed for an intercept that was re-routed by a US AWACS who sent F-15's to shoot down a pair of MiGs. The Italian F-104s evidently had the drop on the Serb a/c as they were linked to a Tornado ADV but it was not to be........would have been an appropriate end to the service of that fine airplane.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
LY744
Posts: 5185
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 11:55 pm

RE: Since The 80's Most Air To Air Kills......

Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:30 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 8):
Since the USAF has entered combat in the 90's the F-15 has the most kills. If I recall correctly the only non-F-15 kill was by an F-16 during the Kosovo conflict when a Dutch bird took down a MiG

USAF F-16s scored kills too, over Iraq shortly after the end of the first Gulf War. The first kills for the AIM-120 AMRAAM I believe. This would have been '92 or '93 and the victims may have included a MiG-25, but I don't remember now. I'm also recalling some (1-2) USAF F-16 kills over the former Yugoslavia in the mid-90's, possibly using an AIM-9 this time, or more AIM-120s.


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
sprout5199
Posts: 1681
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 8:26 am

RE: Since The 80's Most Air To Air Kills......

Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:18 am

Didn't a 'Hog get an air to air kill against a helo in the gulf war?




Dan in Jupiter
 
Lt-AWACS
Posts: 2120
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2002 2:40 am

RE: Since The 80's Most Air To Air Kills......

Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:37 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 8):
The investigation indicated that the AWACS controller misdirected the BVR intercept and he was held responsible, IIRC.

You recall incorrectly. The only one on the E-3 charged was the SD Capt Jim Wang, he was eventually cleared-though I think on a technicality overall-for his weapons team supervision.

The Shots the F-15s took were not BVR. Both F-15s flew by the Helos and VID them as Hinds first, then shot in visual range.

The investigation that followed hit the army hard for not giving its air plan to the CAOC in Turkey daily. It hit the Fighters for miss VIDing the helos. It hit the Helos for not following the correct codes, and it hit the E-3 for not telling the F-15 pilots that codes had been detected earlier (though they were not as fragged) for the UN missions.

The Balkan F-104s you mention were being controlled by NATO AWACS not US E-3s at that time.

Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Capt-AWACS, I have no children and the paperwork to prove it
Io voglio fica ogni giorni da mia bella moglie!
 
Thorny
Posts: 1508
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:44 am

RE: Since The 80's Most Air To Air Kills......

Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:39 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 6):
What's with the 'tude?

No need to get so defensive - I wasn't sh*tting on the USAF's parade.

I disagree.
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7798
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: Since The 80's Most Air To Air Kills......

Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:14 am

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 10):
Didn't a 'Hog get an air to air kill against a helo in the gulf war?

Yup, he used the only gun he had. Not much left to hit the ground...!!
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
deltadc9
Posts: 2788
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:00 pm

RE: Since The 80's Most Air To Air Kills......

Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:29 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 2):
F-15 Eagle without question

33 kills in the Gulf War
4 kills in the Kosovo Campaign

And ZERO losses in combat. An equally impressive statistic.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Since The 80's Most Air To Air Kills......

Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:44 am

I stand corrected....thanks for the additional input. I remember the interviews and documentary of the event that aired on Wings.

Quoting Lt-AWACS (Reply 11):
You recall incorrectly. The only one on the E-3 charged was the SD Capt Jim Wang, he was eventually cleared-though I think on a technicality overall-for his weapons team supervision.

it looks like blame ended up being spread all over in this one

Quoting Lt-AWACS (Reply 11):
The investigation that followed hit the army hard for not giving its air plan to the CAOC in Turkey daily. It hit the Fighters for miss VIDing the helos. It hit the Helos for not following the correct codes, and it hit the E-3 for not telling the F-15 pilots that codes had been detected earlier (though they were not as fragged) for the UN missions.

I think that shitty communications between the different hands on triggers killed several pilots, not to mention several careers.


For the non-F-15 kills I should have specified that the Dutch shootdown was the only F-16 kill I could recall. I did indicate that it was 'the most kills' for the F-15.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
AFHokie
Posts: 220
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 3:29 am

RE: Since The 80's Most Air To Air Kills......

Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:08 am

The first kill ever with an AIM-120 from a USAF airframe was from 90-778, an F-16D Block 42 flown by then LtCol Gary L. North, 33FS/CC (currently 9AF/CC). However, the aircraft was not assigned to the 33FS at that time, but rather to the 19FS who the 33d had replaced in the AOR roughly two weeks earlier. Both the 33d and the 19th Fighter Squadrons were part of the 363d Fighter Wing based at Shaw (now the 20th FW). He shot down an Iraqi MIG-25
 
Areopagus
Posts: 1327
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 12:31 pm

RE: Since The 80's Most Air To Air Kills......

Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:41 am

In the given time period, how many kills were guns rather than missiles? It seems like it has been a long time since I have heard of an air-to-air gun kill, aside from A-10s. Is the day of the gun finally about over, as it was mistakenly thought to be ~45 years ago?
 
LY744
Posts: 5185
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 11:55 pm

RE: Since The 80's Most Air To Air Kills......

Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:58 am

Quoting Areopagus (Reply 17):
In the given time period, how many kills were guns rather than missiles?

I don't think any NATO country has made any gun kills since Vietnam (aside from a possible A-10 kill, against a helicopter?). As always I'm ready to be corrected though  Wink As for the mid east, Israeli F-16's definitely scored some gun kills in '81 and '82, not sure about -15's.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 14):
And ZERO losses in combat. An equally impressive statistic

Zero losses in AIR-TO-AIR combat. Impressive nevertheless.


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4306
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

RE: Since The 80's Most Air To Air Kills......

Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:44 am

Weren't there actually gun kills in the first Gulf War? I am not sure but I think I have read something in that direction...

Otherwise, which missile scored most kills? AIM-9s, and if, which one? AIM-9M?

How did the Sparrow behave, and how great is the Amraam?
 
LY744
Posts: 5185
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 11:55 pm

RE: Since The 80's Most Air To Air Kills......

Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:55 am

AIM-9L/M and AIM-7F/M in GW1 likely. AIM-120A shortly thereafter.


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
redflyer
Posts: 3882
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Since The 80's Most Air To Air Kills......

Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:38 am

Quoting LY744 (Reply 18):
As for the mid east, Israeli F-16's definitely scored some gun kills in '81 and '82, not sure about -15's.

In Operation Peace for Gallilee, which occurred in 1982, they shot down 80 Syrian fighter planes without a single loss (although Syria claims to have shot down a couple of IAF fighters).
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
deltadc9
Posts: 2788
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:00 pm

RE: Since The 80's Most Air To Air Kills......

Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:14 pm

Quoting LY744 (Reply 18):
Zero losses in AIR-TO-AIR combat. Impressive nevertheless.

I am not aware of an F-15 ever being lost to anything but mechanical failure.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
11Bravo
Posts: 1679
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:54 am

RE: Since The 80's Most Air To Air Kills......

Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:36 pm

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 22):
I am not aware of an F-15 ever being lost to anything but mechanical failure.

Two USAF F-15E were shot down during the Gulf War.

1/17/91, 2012Z, F-15E, 4 TFW, 16nm SW Basra, AAA
1/19/91, 2219Z, F-15E, 4 TFW, Al Qiam, SA-2
WhaleJets Rule!
 
propatriamori
Posts: 131
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2000 6:42 am

RE: Since The 80's Most Air To Air Kills......

Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:07 pm

You can say what you want about the USAF over the UH-60 Shootdown, but I would have to say that U.S. Army Patriot crews are probably more dangerous to our own planes than the enemy or the Air Force.
 
deltadc9
Posts: 2788
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:00 pm

RE: Since The 80's Most Air To Air Kills......

Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:21 pm

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 23):
Two USAF F-15E were shot down during the Gulf War.

1/17/91, 2012Z, F-15E, 4 TFW, 16nm SW Basra, AAA
1/19/91, 2219Z, F-15E, 4 TFW, Al Qiam, SA-2

Strike Eagles, that makes sense. Thanks.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Since The 80's Most Air To Air Kills......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:28 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 25):
Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 23):
Two USAF F-15E were shot down during the Gulf War.

1/17/91, 2012Z, F-15E, 4 TFW, 16nm SW Basra, AAA
1/19/91, 2219Z, F-15E, 4 TFW, Al Qiam, SA-2

Strike Eagles, that makes sense. Thanks.

those weren't air/air...they were lost to ground fire while making low level runs during the early phase of combat....they lost several Tornados doing the same thing....magic bb's will kill anything
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
11Bravo
Posts: 1679
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:54 am

RE: Since The 80's Most Air To Air Kills......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:08 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 26):
those weren't air/air...they were lost to ground fire while making low level runs during the early phase of combat....they lost several Tornados doing the same thing....magic bb's will kill anything

My post was in response to this statement in #22.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 22):
I am not aware of an F-15 ever being lost to anything but mechanical failure.

I was just pointing out that, yes they have been lost to things other than mechanical failure.

Plus, that second jet wasn't lost to a Golden BB, it was lost to a Golden Telephone Pole.

 Big grin
WhaleJets Rule!
 
MissedApproach
Posts: 678
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:12 am

RE: Since The 80's Most Air To Air Kills......

Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:16 am

Quoting Areopagus (Reply 17):
Is the day of the gun finally about over, as it was mistakenly thought to be ~45 years ago?

Not right now, but I have think it's an issue they will revisit for the next generation of fighters. I know there was some research into reducing weight in the '80's/'90's, I think the USAF was looking at caseless ammo using a binary liquid propellant. Say what you will, but you can't jam ballistic projectiles.
Can you hear me now?
 
PADSpot
Posts: 1637
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:31 pm

RE: Since The 80's Most Air To Air Kills......

Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:11 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):
My guess would be the F-16. But I really don't think there have been a lot of air-air kills since the 80's. US Navy F-14's shot down a few Lybian Mig's in the mid 80's and I don't think there were a lot of air to air kills in Gulf War I.



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):
F-15 Eagle without question

The Iranians claim that they shot down about 152 Iraqi aircraft with their F-14As during the eight-year Iraqi-Iranian Gulfwar. All of their F-5s and F-4s were used in the ait-to-ground role at that time ... they also "scored" the only AIM-54 combat kills with the F14, but mainly used AIM-7 and AIM-9P.

If the figures are reliable this should pretty much beat all US or Israeli air combat victories achieved by F15s or F16s in the 80s and 90s.
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Since The 80's Most Air To Air Kills......

Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:14 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 29):
The Iranians claim that they shot down about 152 Iraqi aircraft with their F-14As during the eight-year Iraqi-Iranian Gulfwar. All of their F-5s and F-4s were used in the ait-to-ground role at that time ... they also "scored" the only AIM-54 combat kills with the F14, but mainly used AIM-7 and AIM-9P.

If the figures are reliable this should pretty much beat all US or Israeli air combat victories achieved by F15s or F16s in the 80s and 90s.

Well, let's do some math and figure if the Iranian figures are reliable. Find out how many airplanes the Iraqis bought, and how many they seemed to have at the beginning of the 1990 Gulf War. Then see how many could have possibly been lost.

That region of the world is not known for reliable reporting.

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 27):
Plus, that second jet wasn't lost to a Golden BB, it was lost to a Golden Telephone Pole.

Were the SA-2s manufactured by Timex? Because they keep on ticking....
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
PADSpot
Posts: 1637
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:31 pm

RE: Since The 80's Most Air To Air Kills......

Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:42 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 30):
Well, let's do some math and figure if the Iranian figures are reliable. Find out how many airplanes the Iraqis bought, and how many they seemed to have at the beginning of the 1990 Gulf War. Then see how many could have possibly been lost.

That region of the world is not known for reliable reporting.

Well, 152 aircrafts over eight years is not even 20 per year. Given the intensity of war and the fact that the F-14 achieved the vast majority of all Iranian air victories, it does not seem too exaggerated. In addition it is well known that over the years the Iranians always maintained air superiority at least to some extent. Most losses were bombers and helicopters lost to SAMs or MANPADs ..

Concerning the math: Iraqi armed forces were one of largest of the world during the second Gulf war (1990/91). Several sources estimated the strength of their air force to at least something between 600 and 750 aircrafts. it is estimated that only during the eighties they received roughly 300 MIG-23s, MIG-29s and Mirage F.1s. They also received new SU-22 and some MIG-25 Enough to compensate the losses from the first Gulf war...

It is not a middle east specific phenomena that war casualty figures are biased. There is even a rule for it: Enemy losses are usually exaggerated threefold, while own losses are reduced to one third.

But in this case I find 152 losses to the F-14 in eight years pretty straightforward. And that makes the F-14 the most successful US aircraft since the eighties closely followed by the F-15/F-16.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: LMP737, moo and 10 guests