AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

Will America's Adversaries Criticize "Ares"?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:24 am

Ares I and Ares V are the names of the booster rockets that NASA will use to boost both the CEV (Crew Exploration Vehicle) and heavy payloads in support of lunar and interplanetary flights, respectively, into orbit. Ares I and V, in the tradition of Saturns I and V, are expected to serve as boosters that will allow the CEV, the successors to the Space Shuttle, access to Earth orbit and beyond. As part of Project Constellation, the combination of the CEV and the Ares booster rockets may serve to land astronauts on Mars.

The name for the CEV itself has yet to be determined, but leading candidates are said to be "Antares" and "Artemis". Ares V is the name of the planned Saturn V-class rocket booster previously known as the Cargo Launch Vehicle.

Ares is the Greek god of war and is associated with the Roman equivalent, Mars.

Despite general support for these new names, some have seemingly questioned whether Ares is an appropriate designation evidently because the name is etiologically associated with Mars primarily through its connection with the Roman god rather than the planet itself.

According to the Wikipedia, Ares was held in lower esteem by the Greeks than Mars was with the Romans.

Do you believe that Ares I and V are appropriate names for our new NASA rockets? Do you think that an association with war on the part of Ares will be used by America's adversaries as a basis for criticism?

For further information and the depiction of a graphic (seal or emblem) apparently to be used for the Ares programs, please see the following link. (Other sources were also consulted in the writing of this message, including Wikipedia and also those currently available using a Google News search.)

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=20235

[Edited 2006-07-01 17:43:44]
What's fair is fair.
 
lewis
Posts: 3581
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 1999 5:41 am

RE: Will America's Adversaries Criticize "Ares"?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:50 am

It would be stupid for people to connect the name 'Ares' directly to the god of war. Since 'Ares' is the equivalent of the name 'Mars', it is connected with planet Mars in the context of space exploration.
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Will America's Adversaries Criticize "Ares"?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:55 am

I personally support the name "Ares" and have said so in the past, elsewhere on the Internet. However, one news article has already questioned whether it is a good name -- and most people don't even know it's been announced!

Ares is a very dignified name and it shouldn't be criticized because the Greeks themselves identified it more with strife than the Romans did Mars with the dignity of the martial arts.

I especially like the fact that the tradition of mythological names and numerical designations (I and V) have been followed. NASA has always had a tradition of naming crew modules, rockets and rocket stages after ancient mythological gods, including not only Saturn, but Jupiter, Athena, Mercury, Gemini, and, of course, Apollo.

One difference that does strike one in the new name is that, unlike previous figures, Ares is a Greek rather than a Roman god.

[Edited 2006-07-01 17:58:00]
What's fair is fair.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20649
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Will America's Adversaries Criticize "Ares"?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:57 am

Unless it's being used as a booster for nuclear warheads I doubt that it'll be an issue. And it's sort of oversized for that purpose, is it not...?

By the way, paranoia can be bad for your health...! Big grin
 
Mir
Posts: 19108
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Will America's Adversaries Criticize "Ares"?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:58 am

Quoting Lewis (Reply 1):
It would be stupid for people to connect the name 'Ares' directly to the god of war. Since 'Ares' is the equivalent of the name 'Mars', it is connected with planet Mars in the context of space exploration.

 checkmark  Anyone who objects to the name "Ares" out of consideration for America's "warlike attitude" has more than a few screws loose.


Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
The name for the CEV itself has yet to be determined, but leading candidates are said to be "Antares" and "Artemis".

I can't say I like either of those.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Will America's Adversaries Criticize "Ares"?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:02 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 3):
Unless it's being used as a booster for nuclear warheads I doubt that it'll be an issue. And it's sort of oversized for that purpose, is it not...

Ares I will be Shuttle-class, and Ares V will be Saturn V-class.

I suppose that if NASA had gone with another choice, such as Zeus, there would have been other forms of criticism. Zeus was the chief god of Roman mythology, and therefore there would be interest in whether there was presumptuousness on that score.

Other options in my mind included Prometheus, which would have emphasized the benefits from bringing the fruits of the heavenly sphere down to Earth. (Assuming that Mars will eventually become a haven for colonization.) Besides, the word "Prometheus" is phonetically pleasing to me.
What's fair is fair.
 
MattRB
Posts: 1358
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:49 am

RE: Will America's Adversaries Criticize "Ares"?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:03 am

Quoting Lewis (Reply 1):
It would be stupid for people to connect the name 'Ares' directly to the god of war.

Why? It's the Greek equivalent of Mars, the Roman God of War. That's exactly what people are going to connect it with.

It's the first thing I thought of when I heard that was going to be the name of the booster rockets.
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Will America's Adversaries Criticize "Ares"?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:04 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):

I can't say I like either of those.

I like Artemis. Artemis, the hunter, is a female god and we have a scarcity of those in the space program. Besides Athena, all other well-known designations of NASA modules and rocket stages have been of male gods. There is an imbalance there.

Of course, "Antares" has the syllable "ares" in it, which is interesting. "Ant ares" may be seen as "before Ares" (in the same way that "antebellum" means "before war"), which is correct since the CEV, as a manned vehicle, is prioritized in every respect over either of the Ares rocket booster. The CEV is also physically located on top of the Ares I.

[Edited 2006-07-01 18:16:31]
What's fair is fair.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8657
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Will America's Adversaries Criticize "Ares"?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:07 am

Ares is obviously a direct reference to the planet Mars as the booster is part of NASA's longterm goal of sending a manned mission to Mars. It seems a very appropriate name. Any associations with war or aggression are just plain rediculous. This vehicle has almost zero potential as a military launch vehicle.

The program seal is pretty cool, too:



From:

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=20235
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Will America's Adversaries Criticize "Ares"?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:09 am

The program seal also looks like the emblem for the fictional starship Enterprise in Star Trek -- which became the symbol for Star Trek and the fictional Starfleet as a whole. (Refer, especially, to the blue part of the Ares emblem.) The emblem's central rocket contrail and its destination star are also similar to counterparts in the fictional symbol in Trek.

One difference between the two is that the Trek symbol is not perfectly symmetrical, since the curvature at the bottom is lopsided. However, the distribution of the stars in the Ares emblem would also make it nonsymmetrical in the strictest sense.

Speaking of which, (1) I wonder what the significance of those stars is; and (2) the blue field with stars in it reminds one of another fictional symbol from Trek -- the one for the United Federation of Planets.

[Edited 2006-07-01 18:19:48]
What's fair is fair.
 
Mir
Posts: 19108
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Will America's Adversaries Criticize "Ares"?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:10 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 3):
And it's sort of oversized for that purpose, is it not...?

Maybe bin Laden really IS in hiding on the moon......  Smile

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 5):
Other options in my mind included Prometheus

I like that one also.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Will America's Adversaries Criticize "Ares"?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:12 am

I haven't checked with NASA's Website to see that the Ares emblem that is depicted is official; I should probably do that before commenting on it much further.

[Since the time to edit has expired, here is a revision of the first sentence of my post to avoid redundancy: "Ares I and Ares V are the names of the rockets that NASA will use to boost both the CEV (Crew Exploration Vehicle) and heavy payloads in support of lunar and interplanetary flights, respectively, into orbit. "]

[Edited 2006-07-01 18:15:01]
What's fair is fair.
 
lewis
Posts: 3581
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 1999 5:41 am

RE: Will America's Adversaries Criticize "Ares"?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:17 am

Quoting MattRB (Reply 6):
Why? It's the Greek equivalent of Mars, the Roman God of War. That's exactly what people are going to connect it with.

Probably I didn't make my post clear enough...

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
checkmark Anyone who objects to the name "Ares" out of consideration for America's "warlike attitude" has more than a few screws loose.

Thats what I was trying to say, connect 'Ares' to the god of war and thus to America's war-like attitude. The first connection that any sane person would IMO make would be with planet Mars (we are talking about a space programme here anyway)
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Will America's Adversaries Criticize "Ares"?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:25 am

Quoting Lewis (Reply 12):
Thats what I was trying to say, connect 'Ares' to the god of war and thus to America's war-like attitude

Artemis, which is apparently in the running as the name for the CEV, would tend to deflect this criticism. Although she is a huntress, she's still of the distaff side, which is seen as more nurturing and less aggressive. At the same time, Artemis is a powerful figure.

Here in California, by the way, the official seal portrays the Roman goddess Minerva with both a spear and a shield posed in the foreground; behind here is a panorama of a coastal area of the state, including a busy seaport. Also depicted is the famous California bear.

See, e.g.,

http://www.netstate.com/states/symb/seals/ca_seal.htm

[Edited 2006-07-01 18:28:55]
What's fair is fair.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20649
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Will America's Adversaries Criticize "Ares"?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:26 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 10):
Maybe bin Laden really IS in hiding on the moon......

Ah - rrrright; Forgot about that obvious possibility...!  mischievous 
 
lewis
Posts: 3581
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 1999 5:41 am

RE: Will America's Adversaries Criticize "Ares"?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:31 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 13):
Here in California, by the way, the official seal portrays the Roman goddess Minerva with both a sword and a shield posed in the foreground; behind here is a panorama of a coastal area of the state, including a busy seaport. Also depicted is the famous California bear.

Wow, I didn't know that. Minerva's Greek equivalent is goddess Athena (the city of Athens got its name from her). She is usually depicted holding a spear and a shield.
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Will America's Adversaries Criticize "Ares"?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:51 am

Quoting Lewis (Reply 15):
Wow, I didn't know that. Minerva's Greek equivalent is goddess Athena (the city of Athens got its name from her). She is usually depicted holding a spear and a shield.

Quite interesting. Also, I thought I should clarify a couple of things which are, at best, ambiguous from my previous postings here: Athena, a name used by NASA, and Apollo are both Greek divinities. ("Apollo" was also the name of the Roman equivalent. Apparently, the Romans used the same name as the Greeks before them for the same god, unlike the case of Ares/Mars.) Thus, there is ample precedent for usage of Greek names for NASA vehicles.

If I'm mistaken in any of this, anyone should feel free to correct me.

[Edited 2006-07-01 18:54:03]
What's fair is fair.
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Will America's Adversaries Criticize "Ares"?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:59 am

Also, it is now clear to me that the emblem above for Ares is in fact official:

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/ex...ration/spacecraft/ares_naming.html

(See graphic in that article.)

Edit:

A couple of things against "Antares": The name means "against Ares"; and apparently it is also the name of a French evil spirit.

A positive factor for "Artemis": Artemis is the twin of Apollo.

Sources consulted: Wikipedia and sources found after the following search:

http://www.google.com/search?q=Antares+myth&hl=en&lr=&start=0&sa=N

[Edited 2006-07-01 19:11:20]
What's fair is fair.
 
mrmeangenes
Posts: 555
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:56 am

RE: Will America's Adversaries Criticize "Ares"?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 5:23 am

Ares ? Antares ? Considering all else that's going on in the world ,this would seem to be a tremendously underwhelming problem.  Yeah sure  Embarrassment  Confused  Embarrassment
gene
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Will America's Adversaries Criticize "Ares"?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 6:01 am

Well, names do have meaning. I think that naming NASA's two most important new rockets gives a certain degree of personality to them, which encourages public recognition, which in turn may lead to a higher probability of support for Project Constellation.

NASA's space program, despite some spectacular and tragic failures, is a bright star in science and technology, and I, for one, wish it the very best. News of the designations, "Ares I" and "Ares V", in lieu of impersonal and militaristic acronyms, is positive step forward toward the future of manned space flight.
What's fair is fair.
 
Thorny
Posts: 1508
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:44 am

RE: Will America's Adversaries Criticize "Ares"?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 6:24 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 17):
A couple of things against "Antares": The name means "against Ares"; and apparently it is also the name of a French evil spirit.

Antares, I think, comes from "Rival of Mars" because both the star and the planet are very red/orange in the night sky and can be easily confused.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 17):
A positive factor for "Artemis": Artemis is the twin of Apollo.

Yes, but everyone will be looking for General Zod and his evil bunch trying to kill the crew... (see Superman II.)  Silly

Also, Artemis is the name of a long-running private moon program, whose operators may not take kindly to the new government competition usurping the name.

http://www.asi.org/adb/
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Will America's Adversaries Criticize "Ares"?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 6:32 am

Thorny, thanks for the interesting reply! I will follow the link you provided.

If there are problems with both "Antares" and "Artemis" -- and NASA is clearly concerned not to infringe on the legal rights of other parties -- then perhaps the name "Prometheus" can be an alternative. The fact that it is not quite so alliterative as "Antares" and "Artemis", with "Ares", can be overlooked.

Of course, there are potential problems with the name "Prometheus", too, given his fate in mythology, in that, as punishment for stealing fire from the gods, he was chained to a rock and had his liver eternally pecked out by a ravenous eagle.^1

The more I think about it, the less appealing to me is the name "Antares", given its position of opposition that both you and I have described. I suppose I could quickly learn to accept it, though, if it is chosen.

[By the way, I probably should have put the first use of the names "Ares I" and "Ares V" in this thread in quotes, since I was referring to them as names. It's been a long time since I've referred to the AP Stylebook, however. To be consistent, nevertheless, they should have been within quotation marks.]
____________________________

1. Source: E.g., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus

[Edited 2006-07-01 23:50:35]
What's fair is fair.
 
bhmbaglock
Posts: 2489
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:51 am

RE: Will America's Adversaries Criticize "Ares"?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 9:17 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 5):
if NASA had gone with another choice, such as Zeus, there would have been other forms of criticism.

Since Nike-Zeus was an early ABM missile and anything SDI/Star Wars related stirs up a bunch of hornets I think this one will stay on the shelf.

Here's my suggestion going back to some of the early history of the moon program and the first Apollo lander named "Eagle" for a name for the CEV: Periphas. King Periphas of Attica was a priest of Apollo who became king due to his virtue and later was changed into an eagle by Zeus. He was made the messenger of Zeus and given the right to approach his throne at will.

The only down side I see to this is that it might tend to lead to the first settlement on the Moon or Mars being called Attica and that would definitely have some negative connotations.

A bit more info here: http://www.theoi.com/Ther/AetosDios.html
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Will America's Adversaries Criticize "Ares"?

Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:16 pm

Periphas would seem to be a suitable name, although I wonder if most people would initially understand the reference, as he is not a very prominent mythological figure.

The transformation of Periphas into an eagle is particularly appealing in this context.

As always, I appreciate your insights in this matter.
What's fair is fair.
 
bhmbaglock
Posts: 2489
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:51 am

RE: Will America's Adversaries Criticize "Ares"?

Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:28 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 23):
Periphas would seem to be a suitable name, although I wonder if most people would initially understand the reference, as he is not a very prominent mythological figure.

Few people willl understand any choice that is made unfortunately.
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
centrair
Posts: 2845
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:44 pm

RE: Will America's Adversaries Criticize "Ares"?

Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:02 pm

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 22):
Here's my suggestion going back to some of the early history of the moon program and the first Apollo lander named "Eagle" for a name for the CEV: Periphas. King Periphas of Attica was a priest of Apollo who became king due to his virtue and later was changed into an eagle by Zeus. He was made the messenger of Zeus and given the right to approach his throne at will.

Pretty good choice. Impressive...most impressive.

And good thing we don't call it Pavor; Child of Mars and god of Fear.

Another one Antevorta; Goddess of Future..too hard to say

Hell call it the Enterprise and then each individual unit can be named for a trek character. The boiler plates that get destroyed can be called Ensign Jack, Jim, etc.

Since the idea is the Moon, Mars and beyond, why not call the CEV Constellation. It covers the universe and anyplace we choose to send it. It has been the Constellation project for awhile, why not keep it.
My name is Centrair but HND is closer. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
okelleynyc
Posts: 205
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:26 pm

RE: Will America's Adversaries Criticize "Ares"?

Fri Jul 07, 2006 1:23 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 21):
Of course, there are potential problems with the name "Prometheus", too, given his fate in mythology, in that, as punishment for stealing fire from the gods, he was chained to a rock and had his liver eternally pecked out by a ravenous eagle.^1

Isn't Prometheus out of the question since it's already been tagged by NASA for the proposed nuclear propulsion project?
Just give me my Vario, my Ozone Mojo and a gorgeous day of soaring.
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: Will America's Adversaries Criticize "Ares"?

Fri Jul 07, 2006 6:03 am

"Will America's Adversaries Criticize "Ares"? "

Of course they will, they criticise anything the US does on general principle...
I wish I were flying
 
centrair
Posts: 2845
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:44 pm

RE: Will America's Adversaries Criticize "Ares"?

Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:35 pm

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 27):
Of course they will, they criticise anything the US does on general principle...

America Farted and blamed it on Canada. The world must unify against American farting and the "it wasn't me" condition. Down with the US for their stinky farts!
My name is Centrair but HND is closer. Let's Japanese Aviation!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos