deltadude8
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Nasa Space Shuttle Takeoff Flightpath...

Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:17 am

Was wondering if anyone knows what the targeted flightpath of the shuttle's takeoff will be...

years ago i was able to go outside and watch and saw a tiny blip (the shuttle)

If anyone knows what path it will take after departure from Cape...please post
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: Nasa Space Shuttle Takeoff Flightpath...

Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:19 am

Erm, straight up, I think  Wink




Lee
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
 
CV580Freak
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RE: Nasa Space Shuttle Takeoff Flightpath...

Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:22 am

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 1):

Superb , let's hope so  Smile
One day you are the pigeon, the next the statue ...
 
deltadude8
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RE: Nasa Space Shuttle Takeoff Flightpath...

Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:22 am

well it goes up but at an angle...its not a straight up angle of attack
 
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Stitch
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RE: Nasa Space Shuttle Takeoff Flightpath...

Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:27 am

It should arc eastward towards Spain, I imagine, since Marone [sic] is the first abort return site after KSC.

[Edited 2006-07-04 20:44:36]
 
Thorny
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RE: Nasa Space Shuttle Takeoff Flightpath...

Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:01 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
It should arc eastward towards Spain, I imagine, since Marone [sic] is the first abort return site after KSC.

Sorry... northeast paralleling the east coast of the United States.
 
checksixx
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RE: Nasa Space Shuttle Takeoff Flightpath...

Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:18 am

Quoting Thorny (Reply 5):
Sorry... northeast paralleling the east coast of the United States.

Wow! That information is nowhere near correct...check your facts. I don't remember the last time Moron, Spain was located up the East Coast of the United States!

-Check
 
Bobster2
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RE: Nasa Space Shuttle Takeoff Flightpath...

Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:31 am

This chart gives the exact latitude and longitude coordinates for the first 520 seconds, at one second intervals:

http://www.cbsnews.com/network/news/space/121ascentdata.gif
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
Bobster2
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RE: Nasa Space Shuttle Takeoff Flightpath...

Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:40 am

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 6):
I don't remember the last time Moron, Spain was located up the East Coast of the United States!

The Earth is a sphere, it's not flat like the map shows.  Smile
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
Stealthz
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RE: Nasa Space Shuttle Takeoff Flightpath...

Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:25 am

At 520 sec Discovery would be approx 259 mi South East of Nantucket.
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Bobster2
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RE: Nasa Space Shuttle Takeoff Flightpath...

Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:58 am

I drew a straight line from the launch site to the location at 520 seconds. It doesn't represent the actual flight path. But it shows that the Shuttle does go roughly parallel to the North American coast, and you can see how it gets to Spain.

Big version: Width: 600 Height: 400 File size: 63kb
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JBirdAV8r
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RE: Nasa Space Shuttle Takeoff Flightpath...

Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:05 pm

Quoting Deltadude8 (Reply 3):
well it goes up but at an angle...its not a straight up angle of attack

No, it sure isn't...(never heard of a "straight up" AOA anyway  Wink)

Angle of Attack isn't the right term you're looking for here. That would be the angle between the chord line of an airplane's wing and the relative wind.

For a further geeky discussion, I'm not sure if the AoA of the Shuttle stack at liftoff is based on the actual angle of attack of the wings of the Orbiter or if it isn't some other line of reference on the stack.

For most of the Orbiter's flight through the atmosphere, the "angle of attack" in the conventional sense would be pretty close to zero (maybe plus or minus ten degrees)

To answer the original poster's question:

To reach the orbit of the International Space Station, the vehicle launches toward a 51.6 degree inclination (meaning that the Orbiter will "peak" at crossing 51.6 degrees north and 51.6 degrees south of the Equator). This takes the Shuttle on a northeasterly trajectory. I believe most Shuttle launches prior to the ISS were done with the vehicle heading roughly due east, for about a 39 degree inclination (about the same distance above the Equator as KSC). This is a pretty simplistic explanation since I have a really rudimentary understanding of orbital dynamics, but I think it covers the bases.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Nasa Space Shuttle Takeoff Flightpath...

Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:42 pm

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 11):
I believe most Shuttle launches prior to the ISS were done with the vehicle heading roughly due east, for about a 39 degree inclination (about the same distance above the Equator as KSC)

Depends on the mission, of course. The due east launch trajectory was common for the non-station missions that involved space science missions and the like.

The inclination for such a launch is about 28.5 degrees.
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: Nasa Space Shuttle Takeoff Flightpath...

Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:49 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 12):
Depends on the mission, of course. The due east launch trajectory was common for the non-station missions that involved space science missions and the like.

1. sorry, replace 39 with 28.5 (thou shalt not post when tired)

2. My point was that the remaining Shuttle flights will (barring a possible Hubble repair mission) launch to the 51.6 degree inclination to rendezvous with space station. For that matter, just about all Shuttle launches for the past few years have been dedicated to the ISS, with STS-107 and all the recent Columbia missions being the exception, launching to whatever inclination was appropriate for the mission.

Another geeky thought...I think Columbia was due to have the external airlock/docking adapter installed and make its first mission to the ISS not long after STS-107. IIRC its first mission to the ISS was to have Barbara Morgan (of TISP fame) on board. Don't know if it would've done much of the construction work as it was significantly heavier than the other Orbiters.

[Edited 2006-07-05 08:53:14]
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
Thorny
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RE: Nasa Space Shuttle Takeoff Flightpath...

Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:03 am

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 6):
Wow! That information is nowhere near correct...check your facts. I don't remember the last time Moron, Spain was located up the East Coast of the United States!

Ahem. It is wise to look before you leap...

See Bobster's groundtrack image, which is faily accurate. High-inclination launches like the Station missions (51.6 degrees inclination to the equator) go up along the east coast. The first abort landing option is Return to Launch Site (turn around and go back to Cape Canaveral), the second is East Coast Abort Landing, which I think is aimed for Westover ARB, Massachusetts.

http://www-pao.ksc.nasa.gov/nasafact/tal.htm
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Nasa Space Shuttle Takeoff Flightpath...

Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:09 am

Thorny, what is the difference between the following commands I heard on the launch transcript:

"Discovery, 1E OPS-3 Zaragoza." T+0:5:35

versus

"Discovery, 1E TAL Zaragoza." T+0:6:12

I realize it has to do with the engine-out abort capabilities, but what is the difference between an OPS-3 scenario versus a TAL abort?
 
Thorny
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RE: Nasa Space Shuttle Takeoff Flightpath...

Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:16 am

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 13):
Another geeky thought...I think Columbia was due to have the external airlock/docking adapter installed and make its first mission to the ISS not long after STS-107. IIRC its first mission to the ISS was to have Barbara Morgan (of TISP fame) on board. Don't know if it would've done much of the construction work as it was significantly heavier than the other Orbiters.

There were also a lot of rumors about NASA retiring Columbia, since she didn't appear on the Shuttle manifest except for one Station resupply mission and one more Hubble mission. That's why so many of the "how will they finish the station now with only three Orbiters left" question is not taken seriously.

Barbara Morgan (now a full-fledged astronaut) is scheduled to fly on STS-118 next summer.
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: Nasa Space Shuttle Takeoff Flightpath...

Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:51 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 15):
"Discovery, 1E OPS-3 Zaragoza." T+0:5:35

versus

"Discovery, 1E TAL Zaragoza." T+0:6:12

I realize it has to do with the engine-out abort capabilities, but what is the difference between an OPS-3 scenario versus a TAL abort?

I'm no Thorny but I'll take a stab at what I know.

OPS 3 is the PASS software mode for entry. I think even when a TAL abort is selected (single engine TAL, select Zaragoza) OPS 3 is selected after single-engine MECO. Before that I think a TAL TRAJ page is shown on a display and the orbiter flies a trajectory for TAL. Perhaps this OPS 3 call means to mode directly into OPS 3 and forgo switching to TAL?
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
checksixx
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RE: Nasa Space Shuttle Takeoff Flightpath...

Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:16 pm

Quoting Thorny (Reply 14):
Ahem. It is wise to look before you leap...

See Bobster's groundtrack image, which is faily accurate. High-inclination launches like the Station missions (51.6 degrees inclination to the equator) go up along the east coast. The first abort landing option is Return to Launch Site (turn around and go back to Cape Canaveral), the second is East Coast Abort Landing, which I think is aimed for Westover ARB, Massachusetts.

Ahem...maybe you should heed your own advice...as someone pointed out to me (for some unknown reason) the Earth is not flat. The groundtrack image is NOT accurate as it does not take into account a 3rd dimension. The shuttle did NOT parallel the east coast no matter how you look at it...unless you think the world is flat. There was not any East Coast Abort Landing briefed only the Return to Launch Site the Trans-Oceanic Abort Sites in Spain and ATO.
 
nosedive
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RE: Nasa Space Shuttle Takeoff Flightpath...

Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:44 pm

Ok, here's a great circle image of the shuttle's path and the direct parth from KTTS to LEMO, the shuttle landing facility in FL and the Morón airbase in Spain.


Red dots on the shuttle's path indiciate 200, 300, 400, and 520 second intervals from launch.

Funny thing is, the shuttle was blazing a path for LHR!

I wonder if the Bermuda II would allow for shuttle landings... what about the landing fees and slots!?  duck 
I'd post the think, but great circle is being a punk ass...
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: Nasa Space Shuttle Takeoff Flightpath...

Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:44 pm

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 18):
There was not any East Coast Abort Landing briefed only the Return to Launch Site the Trans-Oceanic Abort Sites in Spain and ATO.

ECALs are contingency abort only--meaning there's little more than a snowball's chance down under that that may happen. ECAL wouldn't happen in a "normal" abort mode like RTLS or TAL. ATO doesn't resort in a landing, at least as part of the abort. Any decision on a contingency abort would be made in a matter of seconds and the Orbiter could head anywhere from Myrtle Beach to Nova Scotia. ECAL's aren't generally briefed much, I believe, because it's hard to target toward a specific one and consistently monitor its weather (after all, weather wouldn't really be much of a concern at that point).

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 18):
Ahem...maybe you should heed your own advice...as someone pointed out to me (for some unknown reason) the Earth is not flat. The groundtrack image is NOT accurate as it does not take into account a 3rd dimension. The shuttle did NOT parallel the east coast no matter how you look at it...unless you think the world is flat.

I don't think you understand how orbit works. I'm not saying you CAN'T, I'm just saying that often times it goes beyond the realm of common sense. The Earth isn't perfectly round, either--it's pear-shaped, and this creates its own problems.

http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/academy/rocket_sci/orbmech/incline.html

This is an old link and doesn't illustrate a launch to the ISS, but it may help you understand a bit better.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
checksixx
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RE: Nasa Space Shuttle Takeoff Flightpath...

Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:45 pm

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 20):
I don't think you understand how orbit works. I'm not saying you CAN'T, I'm just saying that often times it goes beyond the realm of common sense. The Earth isn't perfectly round, either--it's pear-shaped, and this creates its own problems.

Dude, are you serious?? I have a very clear understanding. Maybe you should read my post.
 
Thorny
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RE: Nasa Space Shuttle Takeoff Flightpath...

Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:01 pm

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 18):
Ahem...maybe you should heed your own advice...as someone pointed out to me (for some unknown reason) the Earth is not flat. The groundtrack image is NOT accurate as it does not take into account a 3rd dimension. The shuttle did NOT parallel the east coast no matter how you look at it...unless you think the world is flat.

No, the Earth is not flat. You might want to look at some of the plots of the Great Circle routes airliners follow. The Shuttle adheres to that principal.

Yes, the Shuttle paralleled the East Coast of the United States. The Shuttle, like the Space Station is in an orbit inclined 51.6 degrees to the equator, that means the most northerly point in its orbit is 51.6 degrees North Latitude, about the latitude of Juneau, Alaska. The most southerly point in the orbit is 51.6 South, or about Johannesberg, South Africa. The two points are 180 degrees apart.

To get into that orbit from Cape Canaveral, the Shuttle headed northeast, with the SRBs coming down off the coast of Jacksonville, Florida. Discovery passed only about 200 miles east of Cape Hatteras on the way up. Main Engine Cutoff was off the coast of Cape Cod or so. (Night launches have been seen as far north as Nova Scotia.)

The natural flight path then carried them over Central Europe, heading southeast. To get to Moron or Istres, they would have needed to use a lot of their 1,000 mile crossrange capability. That's what the delta wing and its crossrange is most useful for.
 
SABE
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RE: Nasa Space Shuttle Takeoff Flightpath...

Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:30 am

Quoting Thorny (Reply 22):
The most southerly point in the orbit is 51.6 South, or about Johannesberg, South Africa.

Johannesburg is only at 26 degrees southern latitude. Maybe you were thinking about Cape Horn (South America) rather than Cape Hope (South Africa)?

http://gc.kls2.com/airport/JNB
http://gc.kls2.com/airport/USH

Quoting Thorny (Reply 22):
The two points are 180 degrees apart.

Actually, the difference in latitude between the northernmost and southernmost points of the orbit is only 103.2 degrees. What you meant to say was that the orbit of the Space Station (or Shuttle in this case) describes a plane that is tilted to the Equator by 51.6 degrees. The plane is, of course, flat, and therefore there is an angle of 180 degrees from one of its sides to the other. The link provided by JBirdAV8r shows this nicely.
TUS-DFW-EZE... can't wait to visit home again!
 
Thorny
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RE: Nasa Space Shuttle Takeoff Flightpath...

Fri Jul 07, 2006 3:18 am

Quoting SABE (Reply 23):
Johannesburg is only at 26 degrees southern latitude. Maybe you were thinking about Cape Horn (South America) rather than Cape Hope (South Africa)?

D'oh! Yep. Johannesburg is about the southern limit for a 28.5 degree orbit like the Shuttle used to fly all the time. Got South Africa and South America mixed up.

Quoting SABE (Reply 23):
The plane is, of course, flat, and therefore there is an angle of 180 degrees from one of its sides to the other.

Didn't I say that? The most northerly and most southerly points in the orbit are 180 degrees apart.
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: Nasa Space Shuttle Takeoff Flightpath...

Fri Jul 07, 2006 3:57 am

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 21):
Dude, are you serious??

Absolutely! Chill out.

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 21):
I have a very clear understanding.

I think that you think you do.

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 21):
Maybe you should read my post.

I did, in fact. I read this:

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 6):
I don't remember the last time Moron, Spain was located up the East Coast of the United States!

and this:

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 18):
The groundtrack image is NOT accurate as it does not take into account a 3rd dimension. The shuttle did NOT parallel the east coast no matter how you look at it...unless you think the world is flat.

and drew my conclusion. I think you're confused.

The ground track, on a Mercator-type projection, looks like a sine wave across the surface. The apex of the sine wave at launch would've been somewhere off the Canadian Atlantic coast, with the "down" side passing very close to the TAL abort sites of Moron, Zaragoza, and Istres.

Feel free to calm down--it's only the Internet!  Smile
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
Bobster2
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RE: Nasa Space Shuttle Takeoff Flightpath...

Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:15 am

Cape Canaveral is actually in a pretty bad location for launches to the ISS. That's why you see the odd flightpath to the northeast. The ISS orbit was designed to go far north so the Russians could reach it more easily and also to make the ISS overfly a larger part of the earth's surface. The Russians launch to the east and take of advantage of the boost from the rotation of the earth.
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
Thorny
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RE: Nasa Space Shuttle Takeoff Flightpath...

Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:13 am

Quoting Bobster2 (Reply 26):
Cape Canaveral is actually in a pretty bad location for launches to the ISS. That's why you see the odd flightpath to the northeast. The ISS orbit was designed to go far north so the Russians could reach it more easily and also to make the ISS overfly a larger part of the earth's surface. The Russians launch to the east and take of advantage of the boost from the rotation of the earth.

SkyLab was in nearly the same orbit... 50 degrees. Oh, to have the throw-weight of a Saturn V today...

Space Station Freedom was going to be at 28.5 degrees, due east from Cape Canaveral. When it was cancelled and later reborn as a combination with Russia's Mir 2 (becoming the International Space Station... nevermind that Freedom was already International), the inclination was changed to match what the Russians could reach... 51.6 degrees. The Shuttle took a major payload penalty hit (as much as 40% by some counts) but made about half of that back with the introduction of the Super Lightweight External Tank in 1998.

51.6 isn't quite due east, Russia tries (at least a little) not to overfly population centers, so they launch a little away from due east.

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