Qb001
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True Cost Of Modern Jet Fighters

Fri Jul 14, 2006 11:23 pm

I'm surprised no one has posted this before (unless I missed something).

Well, it seems that the best jet fighter, in terms of value, is the ... Rafale ! A close second is the Gripen. The F-22 costs more than its weight in gold !

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae...uniques/FighterCostFinalJuly06.pdf
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MigFan
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RE: True Cost Of Modern Jet Fighters

Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:23 am

If you were to ready some of the posts regarding procurement, you would see that this topic often comes up.

Basically, it boils down to development costs / the number acquired. The more "new technology" involved raises the price and development time. The amount of technology in modern fighters is so complex that their development life-cycles are almost constant.

/M
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Tugger
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RE: True Cost Of Modern Jet Fighters

Sat Jul 15, 2006 5:31 am

Quoting QB001 (Thread starter):
Well, it seems that the best jet fighter, in terms of value, is the ... Rafale ! A close second is the Gripen. The F-22 costs more than its weight in gold !

But, I with the F-22a could kick the Rafale's and Gripen's butt and take your gold to pay for it!

Provided the US does not go backrupt first......

Tug
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RAPCON
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RE: True Cost Of Modern Jet Fighters

Sat Jul 15, 2006 6:10 am

Quoting QB001 (Thread starter):
Well, it seems that the best jet fighter, in terms of value, is the ... Rafale !

Well somebody forgot to tell the Singapore AF about the "value" of the RAFALE! According to Defence Analysis and Flight Daily News, the Singapore evaluation reportedly revealed problems with RAFALE's reliability and availability, and that the aircraft failed to demonstrate claimed radar performance or its claimed ability to supercruise. Singapore was also reportedly unimpressed by RAFALE's much vaunted "Omni role" capability.

It seems that RAFALEe, even though it has the best so-called "value" has come up short in the following sales:

-Singapore (lost to F-15K)
-South Korea (lost to F-15K)
-Algeria (lost to MiG 29)
-Saudi Arabia (lost to EF2000)
-South Africa (lost to JAS39)
and
a whole bunch of countries that are buying the F-35.

Well....at least India has not yet made her decision, eh? Maybe they'll appreciate the "value" of the Rafale!!
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dw747400
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RE: True Cost Of Modern Jet Fighters

Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:22 am

Its an interesting comparison, but value would be the effectiveness of the aircraft in combat versus its cost--not how it compares to caviar on a pound per pound basis.

It seems to me the author of this document wants to bring attention to the cost of aircraft in general; not provide any sort of useful comparison on the value of different aircraft.
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blrsea
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RE: True Cost Of Modern Jet Fighters

Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:44 am

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 3):

It seems that RAFALEe, even though it has the best so-called "value" has come up short in the following sales:

-Singapore (lost to F-15K)
-South Korea (lost to F-15K)
-Algeria (lost to MiG 29)
-Saudi Arabia (lost to EF2000)
-South Africa (lost to JAS39)
and
a whole bunch of countries that are buying the F-35.

Arms sales are not just based on capabilities but on the prevailing political situation too. Especially big ticket items!!
 
CF188A
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RE: True Cost Of Modern Jet Fighters

Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:45 pm

I like how my superior said it... The United States is no brains with big guns! w which is what wins wars in today's world. We are "Lucky" to have the US as our neighboring country for not only safety, but its a partnership. The F-22A I was told at the Joint Services Open House, that it was indeed an EXPENSIVE, and not fully successful design. Any technologically advanced nation can build a stealth fighter (aiming more towards democratic ) Canada, UK, Germany, France, etc etc. The only problem is ........ $$$ . It would be interesting to know how much the F22 project is worth. The next comment is a rumor/ statement from a USAF pilot. "We believe that when the F-35 starts into full production, you will possibly see the termination of the F22"

It does make sense somewhat... and when it comes to selling to neighboring countries.... Canada and RAF for example, the F-35 is basically the dream fighter of all nations. Give it 10-15 more years Smile . I am not 100% qualified to compare the F-22 and F-35, but I know if one (the F-35) can accomplish all landmarks set down by the F22 , while keeping the VTOL capability, all for a cheaper more resourceful use, then I can automatically key together the F-35 is soon to be the most technological, useful fighter aircraft in the sky.
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Zkpilot
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RE: True Cost Of Modern Jet Fighters

Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:04 am

Quoting CF188A (Reply 6):
The next comment is a rumor/ statement from a USAF pilot. "We believe that when the F-35 starts into full production, you will possibly see the termination of the F22"

It does make sense somewhat... and when it comes to selling to neighboring countries.... Canada and RAF for example, the F-35 is basically the dream fighter of all nations. Give it 10-15 more years . I am not 100% qualified to compare the F-22 and F-35, but I know if one (the F-35) can accomplish all landmarks set down by the F22 , while keeping the VTOL capability, all for a cheaper more resourceful use, then I can automatically key together the F-35 is soon to be the most technological, useful fighter aircraft in the sky.

The F35 is a great aircraft, but it is not as capable a fighter as the F22.
1) Does not have supercruise or is anywhere near as fast
2) Is not as manueverable
3) Is not as stealthy as the F22
4) Doesn't carry the same load as the F22, or as far.
5) Single engine vs 2 engine F22

Whilst you are most likely right about the F22 program being canned once the F35 is in production, the remaining F22's will be the best fighter in the world for probably the next 25 years, by which time UCAV will be the mainstay of the most powerful airforces.  Smile
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MigFan
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RE: True Cost Of Modern Jet Fighters

Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:53 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 7):
The F35 is a great aircraft, but it is not as capable a fighter as the F22.

 checkmark  I am onboard with that statement 100%.

Think of the F-35 as an "F-22 Lite". V/STOL capability detracts a great deal from an aircraft's overall performance. Not all versions of the JSF will be configured in that way, the USAF and USN versions will be conventional takeoff versions.

/M
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checksixx
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RE: True Cost Of Modern Jet Fighters

Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:49 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 7):
The F35 is a great aircraft, but it is not as capable a fighter as the F22.
1) Does not have supercruise (WRONG) or is anywhere near as fast (WRONG)
2) Is not as manueverable (FUNNY HOW YOU SAY THAT YET NO ONE HAS SEEN ONE FLY YET)
3) Is not as stealthy as the F22 (WRONG)
4) Doesn't carry the same load as the F22, or as far. (TWO LESS AAM'S)
5) Single engine vs 2 engine F22 (WHO CARES)

Whilst you are most likely right about the F22 program being canned once the F35 is in production (WRONG-THE NEXT 3 LOTS OF RAPTORS ARE ALREADY PAID FOR AND FYI, BY THE TIME THE F-35 HITS LRP, THE RAPTOR PROCUREMENT WILL ALMOST BE COMPLETE), the remaining F22's will be the best fighter in the world for probably the next 25 years, by which time UCAV will be the mainstay of the most powerful airforces.
 
AirRyan
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RE: True Cost Of Modern Jet Fighters

Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:44 am

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/07/16/business/rairfight.php

Quote:

Pricing combat aircraft is notoriously complex, with deals often involving industrial offsets and seldom reflecting full aircraft development costs. While Dufour put the average cost of a Rafale at €50 million, or $64 million, and the Typhoon - a collaboration grouping Italy, Germany, Spain and Britain - at about £65 million, or $120 million, Kemp said both aircraft had been offered to Singapore and South Korea at about $95 million each, compared with a basic price tag of $45 million to $50 million for the Gripen.

Combat aircraft technology "costs what it weighs," Kemp said. "The Typhoon is basically twice the weight of the Gripen - and costs twice as much."
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: True Cost Of Modern Jet Fighters

Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:36 pm

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 9):
WRONG-THE NEXT 3 LOTS OF RAPTORS ARE ALREADY PAID FOR AND FYI, BY THE TIME THE F-35 HITS LRP, THE RAPTOR PROCUREMENT WILL ALMOST BE COMPLETE)

Your point? As I said by the time the F35 is in production the F22 production will most likely be canned (since it will be almost complete as you mentioned).
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MigFan
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RE: True Cost Of Modern Jet Fighters

Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:26 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 7):
by which time UCAV will be the mainstay of the most powerful airforces.

That is a scary outlook. Although, most likely to be true, it stinks...

/M
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HaveBlue
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RE: True Cost Of Modern Jet Fighters

Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:06 pm

The F-35 will be to the F-22 what the F-16 and F-18 were to the F-15 and F-14, respectively.. that is, a Hi Lo mix. We couldn't afford all the F-15/14/22's that we want/need, so a cheaper but superb fighter that could be purchased in greater numbers fills the void.
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747400sp
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RE: True Cost Of Modern Jet Fighters

Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:00 am

Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 13):

The F-16 and F-18 was cheap, but I can not say they are superb, but that is my opinion. The F-14,F-15 and F-22 is what a real fighter support to be.
 
FredT
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RE: True Cost Of Modern Jet Fighters

Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:46 am

First of all, it is very hard to even pin a unit procurement cost on an aircraft. That study makes a good attempt at it.

If you want the bang for the buck figure, it gets even harder. How do you evaluate the value of an aircraft out on the battlefield? On what kind of battlefield, for starters? How much is swing-role capability worth to you? To customer A? To customer B? What is the availability figure if you spend x1 dollars on spares, x2 dollars on maintenance crew training? If you instead spend x3 and x4 dollars, respectively?

How much are spares? How much fuel does it burn? How much maintenance is required to keep the aircraft in the condition you want them (with the corresponding availability)? How much support is there for training pilots without firing live missiles every two weeks? How are the evaluation possibilities and what does that do to the number of hours required to keep your pilots' trained to the desired level?

Life cycle cost is the really interesting figure, and it gets terribly complex fast if you want to look at it in any depth at all. That report even specifies that it did not even consider LCC.
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ebj1248650
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RE: True Cost Of Modern Jet Fighters

Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:58 am

Quoting CF188A (Reply 6):
The next comment is a rumor/ statement from a USAF pilot. "We believe that when the F-35 starts into full production, you will possibly see the termination of the F22"

Was he talking termination of production or termination of operations ... or both? I can see termination of production, but given the fact the F-35 doesn't have the top end performance the F-22 has, I can't see terminating operations. But then there have been and still are times when what the Defense Department does doesn't make a bit of sense.
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ebj1248650
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RE: True Cost Of Modern Jet Fighters

Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:00 am

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 14):
The F-16 and F-18 was cheap, but I can not say they are superb, but that is my opinion. The F-14,F-15 and F-22 is what a real fighter support to be.

I suspect your definition of a "real fighter" is one that is designed and used for air superiority and, that being the case, your examples are pretty much right on ... though you have to allow that all three airplanes have been modified to perform the mud moving mission in some of their variants.
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