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STT757
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Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:44 am

This is showing some sophistication on the part of Hezbollah, not just the fact they used a drone but that it actually made a direct hit. They did not build this in someone's Beirut basement, this has to be either Russian or Chinese technology via Iran.

Makes me curious as to Iran's military capabilities, also what kind of guidance/control did this drone use. Some guy staring at a video feed on a Toshiba tv and a Play station II control>?

It's amazing if the reports are accurate that Hezbollah singled out both this Warship and the City of Haifa for attacks and then were able to pull it off, they must be getting alot of help from someone with some sophistication.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060715/...u=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:51 am

Do we know anything about the hezbollah drone? Is this drone similar to the ones they have flown over Northern Isreal on reconn missions in recent years?
 
LY744
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:07 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
Is this drone similar to the ones they have flown over Northern Isreal on reconn missions in recent years?

It would be reasonable to assume so IMO.


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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:26 am

Something tells me the Israelis really wish they had MTHEL right now.
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:02 am

My compliments to Hezbollah.

I don't think anybody expected they would be able to do that.

It would have been better if it was the Lebonese military that had made this strike.
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:12 am

Amazing what technology mentally can do.
I have watched numerous WWII flicks of ships being targeted by Kamikazee planes, some get through some get shot down, no radar, no aegis just men with rapid firing guns.

Has so much been invested in technonlgy that low tech weapons like this can so easily disable a multi-million ship, I have seen video of Israeli ships off Beirut on tv, don't know if they are live shots or file tape, the ships however, look clean, like Burkes or Tico's, did not get a close enough look to see if they actually had anything like machine gun mounts or even bofors if things like that are still used on ships in this new missle age. The sarcastic part of me says that at least the radar saw it coming.
 
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:32 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 4):
I don't think anybody expected they would be able to do that.

They've been using aerial vehicles for over a decade, so I don't think this is shocking. What is shocking is the fact they got through the ship's defenses. Yet another lapse by the IDF...


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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sat Jul 15, 2006 12:36 pm

Quoting LY744 (Reply 6):
They've been using aerial vehicles for over a decade, so I don't think this is shocking. What is shocking is the fact they got through the ship's defenses. Yet another lapse by the IDF...

Im not surprised they used an aerial drone, what really surprises me is that the leader of Hezbollah after his house is shelled by Israeli warships goes on the air makes a statement about striking the ship that hit his house.

I think to myself yeah right like they have that capability, and the next thing you know they are ramming a bombed packed drone into an Israeli warship.

Im astonished, if this were mythbusters I would have thought it would have been mythbusted but now it's myth confirmed.

[Edited 2006-07-15 05:37:33]
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sat Jul 15, 2006 12:43 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 7):
Im not surprised they used an aerial drone, what really surprises me is that the leader of Hezbollah after his house is shelled by Israeli warships goes on the air makes a statement about striking the ship that hit his house.

Well like I said in another thread (Non Av), I'm not sure how this ship was supposed to attack land targets. Does anyone know if there even is a version of the Harpoon that is ship launched and can attack ground targets.


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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sat Jul 15, 2006 12:54 pm

Quoting LY744 (Reply 8):
Does anyone know if there even is a version of the Harpoon that is ship launched and can attack ground targets.

It had a gun, looked like a 5-inch from the news phootage.
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sat Jul 15, 2006 12:56 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 9):
It had a gun, looked like a 5-inch from the news phootage

If it was the same class as the ones they where showing on the news it was a 3inch OTO Melera gun.

Pretty common.
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:13 pm

Quoting Par13del (Reply 5):
or even bofors if things like that are still used on ships in this new missle age.

It's a sign of the times - Mausers and Oerlikons are getting less and less shipboard applications nowadays.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 10):

If it was the same class as the ones they where showing on the news it was a 3inch OTO Melera gun.
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:33 pm

Quoting STT757 (Thread starter):
They did not build this in someone's Beirut basement, this has to be either Russian or Chinese technology via Iran.

All what you need to build a combat drone that can carry a 40kg payload can be bought in a model building shop.

I was into model building about ten years ago and just recently I popped into a model building store just to see what is possible today ... GPS-assisted autopilots, 1:3 scale models, jet and 60cc piston engines, video transimssion equippment and much more ... if you have the money (and the explosives) they have the equipment ... 1-2 smart and technically educated people and let's say 10.000 $ is all what you need to conduct such an attack. ... and you need luck to get through their defense, obviously.

Edit: Of course you need a lot of time to test and train, but definitely NOT the help of Syria, Iran, Russia, China or whoever!

Quoting N328KF (Reply 3):
Something tells me the Israelis really wish they had MTHEL right now.

Well, a Phalanx or a RAM missile also could do the job. And even a well-trained and astute .50-inch gunner could bring it down.

Quoting LY744 (Reply 6):
They've been using aerial vehicles for over a decade, so I don't think this is shocking. What is shocking is the fact they got through the ship's defenses. Yet another lapse by the IDF...

I think the was problem was that nobody anticipated such an attack.

[Edited 2006-07-15 09:45:52]
 
Lumberton
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:12 pm

AP is reporting that it was an Iranian made missile, not a drone:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,203754,00.html

Quote:
BEIRUT, Lebanon — A missile fired by Hezbollah, not an unmanned drone laden with explosives, damaged an Israeli warship off Lebanon, the army said Saturday.

The attack on Friday night had raised widespread concern in the Israeli military because initial information indicated that the guerrillas had used a drone for the first time to attack Israeli forces.

But the army's investigation into the attack, which left four Israeli sailors missing, showed that Hezbollah had fired an Iranian-made missile at the vessel from the shores of Lebanon, said Brig. Gen. Ido Nehushtan.

"We can confirm that it was hit by an Iranian-made missile launched by Hezbollah. We see this as very profound fingerprint of Iranian involvement in Hezbollah," Nehushtan said in an interview with The Associated Press.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:09 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 10):
If it was the same class as the ones they where showing on the news it was a 3inch OTO Melera gun.



Quoting STT757 (Reply 9):
It had a gun, looked like a 5-inch from the news phootage.

It was a different ship from the one you saw on the news. The only gun this one has is the 20mm Vulcan as part of the Phalanx (?) anti missile defense system. The only offensive weapons on the Sa'ar 5 are 8 Harpoon launchers and some torpedoes.


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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:11 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 13):
AP is reporting that it was an Iranian made missile, not a drone:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,....html

There's some speculation that it was a Chinese made C802K sold to Iran in the 90's. It's similar to the U.S. Harpoon or French Exocet, has 165kg warhead, a range of 120km and is high subsonic. According to Global Security it has a 98% hit probability due to its small size and powerful active jamming....

Very bad news indeed if true. I wonder if Mk 15 Phalanx CIWS would be able to bring it down...
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:13 pm

Yeehaa ... IDF claims that is was an C802 missile, which is basically a dramatically improved Chinese/Iranian copy of the Exocet.

Forget what I said about model airplanes and .50 guns ... this thing could have easily sunk a frigate or corvette, what the hit ship apparently was ...

Here is something to read:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/c-801.htm

[Edited 2006-07-15 16:14:39]
 
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:19 pm

Quoting Okelleynyc (Reply 15):
There's some speculation that it was a Chinese made C802K sold to Iran in the 90's. It's similar to the U.S. Harpoon or French Exocet, has 165kg warhead, a range of 120km and is high subsonic. According to Global Security it has a 98% hit probability due to its small size and powerful active jamming....

Read one report that two were fired, which makes for a 50/50 hit probablity in this case.
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:21 pm

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 17):
Read one report that two were fired, which makes for a 50/50 hit probablity in this case.

The second hit an egyptian freight ship, which apparently sunk.

All Israeli missile boats have 20mm CIWS, but on a 16km distance there is allmost no time to react, espcially not if don't anticipate an attack

[Edited 2006-07-15 16:30:02]
 
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:28 pm

Quoting Okelleynyc (Reply 15):
I wonder if Mk 15 Phalanx CIWS would be able to bring it down

Well it's 0-1 as of yesterday.


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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:31 pm

Quoting Okelleynyc (Reply 15):
I wonder if Mk 15 Phalanx CIWS would be able to bring it down...

The Phalanx should be able to handle this missile, and the SAAR 5's are reportedly equipped with CIWS. One wonders is it was in "auto" or "manual", or not turned on at all? If there was no reason to suspect that there was a threat, the CIWS most likely would not have been engaged, since it could have endangered neutrals or friendlies. Only speculation on my part.
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:02 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 20):
One wonders is it was in "auto" or "manual", or not turned on at all? If there was no reason to suspect that there was a threat, the CIWS most likely would not have been engaged, since it could have endangered neutrals or friendlies. Only speculation on my part.

I think that's good speculation Lumberton. I wasn't sure if the SAAR 5's had CIWS or not and if it did, why wasn't it able to stop the threat. I would have thought that if one is "on station" and "in combat", that the defensive systems would be active.

It'll be interesting to see if an after action report is shared so that we can find out what happened.
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:33 am

Quoting Okelleynyc (Reply 21):
I would have thought that if one is "on station" and "in combat", that the defensive systems would be active.

You're correct of course, but IIRC it happened to us when the USS STARK's was "off". When you are operating with other "friendlies"--especially those that have helo's embarked--it won't do to have the CIWS in full auto. On patrol, w/o having to worry about friendly aircraft and neutrals (BEY is closed after all) it would be prudent to have this engaged--unless intel said there was no threat. I suspect the Iranian missiles took them by surprise. Kind of like EILAT all over again, when they failed to realize the capability of the SSN2 "Styx".
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:44 am

Quoting PADSpot

"The second hit an egyptian freight ship, which apparently sunk."

How come this is of no concern to the news media?. I admit that I have not been watching the news events 24/7, checking BBC at the top of the hour and the other new outlets also, has this been reported?

I heard and watched the reports starting last night of the ship being hit, but no mention was made of any other vessel.
 
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:53 am

Quoting LY744 (Reply 19):

Well it's 0-1 as of yesterday.



Quoting PADSpot (Reply 18):
Quoting LMP737 (Reply 17):
Read one report that two were fired, which makes for a 50/50 hit probablity in this case.

The second hit an egyptian freight ship, which apparently sunk.

If this was confirmed, that would make it 2-0, but why would an ostensibly undefended freighter be targeted?

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 20):
One wonders is it was in "auto" or "manual", or not turned on at all? If there was no reason to suspect that there was a threat,



Quoting Okelleynyc (Reply 21):
I would have thought that if one is "on station" and "in combat", that the defensive systems would be active.

One would think that if one of your armed services attacked a foreign target, that the other branches would be on combat readiness long before.

Quoting Okelleynyc (Reply 21):
It'll be interesting to see if an after action report is shared so that we can find out what happened.

Good luck on that one.
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sun Jul 16, 2006 1:11 am

Quoting Par13del (Reply 23):
How come this is of no concern to the news media?.



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 24):
If this was confirmed, that would make it 2-0, but why would an ostensibly undefended freighter be targeted?

Source is an article of german news channel n-tv. Unfortunatly its in German.
http://www.n-tv.de/689160.html

I can't find any additional information confirming that it sunk. But a lot of news media report that an additional civil ship was hit.
 
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sun Jul 16, 2006 1:19 am

The 76mm (a rapid fire weapon with radar guidence, presumably optics too), the Phalanx, the BARAK SAM (if fitted-but this Israeli weapon is in wide use, I'd be surprised if this vessel did not have it), even crew operated 20mm or even .50mgs, all should have been able to engage.

It might well be USS Stark all over again, but this Israeli vessel would have had better close range AA than that US Frigate, and actually operating in combat, deliberate, with them being the attacker.

I seriously doubt a full size, dedicated SSM, like the Chinese weapon, what about Radar guidence? If so where was the ships's RWR/ECM? Or Chaff?
You'd need a quite sophisticated set up on land, not spotted by the Israelis?

The Argentines did rig up, on the Falklands in 1982, two ship mounted MM-38 Exocets on to a truck, rigged up power, the ability to receive from the land based TPS-43 radar set.
They used it at night, against the Destroyer HMS Glamorgan which was doing shore bombardment.
One missile destroyed the hangar, caused extensive damage, killed 14 sailors.

Luckily, this 60's built ship was by modern standards, very robust, it had turned on sighting the missile, preventing a hit in the centre of the ship.
After damage control and repairs, she made it back to the UK under it's power, but this 'County' class vessel was as big as a WW2 light Cruiser.
The Argentines were not Hezbollah, they were a regular, fully equipped force with technical competence.

And as stated, the Israeli ship probably would have sunk, or been at least completely disabled, had a 'proper' SSM hit it.

I view this a little like what happened when the Argentines took South Georgia, just after the Falklands invasion.
Just 11 Royal Marines (really there to protect some UK nationals doing research and wildlife filming), were defending the former whaling station.

Their 84mm Carl Gustav AT weapon, holed the Argentine A-69 Corvette below the waterline, (Marine Dave Coombe's shot was a bit short, but the round carried on!), the 100mm had it's traverse limited by 66mm rocket hits, the crew of the 40mm Bofors were either killed or prevented from manning the gun due to the Marine's gunfire, Lt Keith Mill's section had a sniper, he put rounds through the bridge windows.
The Corvette got out of the small harbour, the Marines also brought down a Puma helicopter and forces down an Alouette II.

But the Marines low getting low on ammo, Argentine forces landed elsewhere were beginning to surround them, they had civillians in their charge, so with a point made, they surrendered.

What these guys have done in Lebanon, whatever you think of them, is one hell of a thing.
Even allowing for the complancey of the Israelis.

That Israeli Destroyer sunk by a Stynx in 1967, was of WW2 vintage, Ex RN I think, so at least they had the excuse of an obselete ship being attacked by a modern system.
 
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sun Jul 16, 2006 1:44 am

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 17):
Read one report that two were fired, which makes for a 50/50 hit probablity in this case.

Not enough data points to make such an assessment.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 23):
How come this is of no concern to the news media?. I admit that I have not been watching the news events 24/7, checking BBC at the top of the hour and the other new outlets also, has this been reported?

Because they're too busy painting Israel as the bad guys and the Jihadis as the gallant defenders of the Faith and Freedom.
Saying their darlings sank a 3rd party (and an Islamic third party at that) ship on the side would destroy that image.
Here they didn't even mention the rocket attacks on Haifa and elsewhere that triggered the missions into Lebanon...

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 24):
If this was confirmed, that would make it 2-0, but why would an ostensibly undefended freighter be targeted?

Collateral damage.
When a typical missile misses its target it will fly on in a preset search pattern and look for another target. If several present at roughly the same time it will typically attack the largest of them all, and that's as far as the power of its brain goes.
So if it had detected the freighter and the corvette, it would attack the freighter because it was larger...
That's the way these things are designed to make them lock on to cruisers and destroyers even if they put out decoys.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 24):
One would think that if one of your armed services attacked a foreign target, that the other branches would be on combat readiness long before.

But only if you expect an attack from a certain vector.
A fast boat with explosives or machine guns would have been expected, maybe even a light aircraft, and would have been successfully engaged.
But noone probably suspected the Jihadis to have advanced anti-ship missiles in their arsenals and the knowhow to employ them (of course there's the very real possibility that the people actually firing and guiding the weapon were Iranian "advisors", in similar fashion to most MiGs in the Korean war being flown by Chinese "advisors" and many SAM sites and MiGs over Vietnam being operated by Soviet "advisors".
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sun Jul 16, 2006 1:54 am

The Sa'ar 5 is equipped with one complete CIWS complex, mounted at the front of the ship. I imagine it can't provide more than about 270 degrees of coverage. It also has a suite of Barak missiles for air/missile defense.

As others stated, the CIWS, as installed on the Israeli Navy's ships, can be set to operate in fully automatic mode (rarely used for safety reasons), or semi automatic (where a crew member needs to monitor the system and press a button to allow it to engage a target). I assume the same concept applies to the Barak.

It would appear, to me at least, that the Israelis ignored the possibility of a missile threat and left the ship completely exposed. As a result, a sailor is dead and 3 are missing.

As for the Iranian missiles, they apparently have been produced/converted in a shore launched version. Considering Iran's long coastline, I'm sure they would have a great use for such a system. My understanding is that it can be mounted on a truck. Presumably the complete system would also have to feature at least a search radar, and probably a command station of some sort, like a simple SAM battery.

However, there is another nuance to this story: apparently there is a video out there that depicts something that resembles a missile attack on a ship, said to be the events of yesterday. Now, I haven't seen it (if anyone has a link please share), but I heard it shows a flash of light flying in a ballistic trajectory towards the sea. This does not sound like the path any modern guided anti-ship missile would take, since it's easy to intercept...


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par13del
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:06 am

Jwentig
"But only if you expect an attack from a certain vector.
A fast boat with explosives or machine guns would have been expected, maybe even a light aircraft, and would have been successfully engaged.
But noone probably suspected the Jihadis to have advanced anti-ship missiles in their arsenals and the knowhow to employ them (of course there's the very real possibility that the people actually firing and guiding the weapon were Iranian "advisors", in similar fashion to most MiGs in the Korean war being flown by Chinese "advisors" and many SAM sites and MiGs over Vietnam being operated by Soviet "advisors" "

I agree and disagree with everything you have said from this point of view, they should have expected it. Israel has used gunboats off the coast of Lebanon before, so they should have assumed that "the enemy" would want to confront that threat as well.

Whats interesting to me is the "American" flavour of this war, in particular the use of air power, so far it has accomplished nothing. If Israel want to stop the rocket barrage, they have to put boots on the ground, somehow this "Air Force" thinking that air power is everything seems to be catching on. To get rockets so deep into Israel, they have to be fired close to the border right?

Assume drones flying over South Lebanon with a/c or helicopters ready to attack as soon as a launch site is revealed. Also, all this time before a ground assault allow troops on the ground to lay traps, mines etc which will make the use of armoured vehicles moot?
 
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:08 am

As it's said, it wasn't a drone. I saw 2 missiles on TV fired 15 seconds from one another.

A hit to another ship was not reported here.
 
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:12 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 26):
even crew operated 20mm or even .50mgs, all should have been able to engage.

 listen  You want engage (with a crew-operated weapon) a missile that has a 40cm diameter, is aiming directly at you, 5m above the waves, at close to 1000km/h and with the shore still at the horizon (16km distance) ?

Well, ... Godspeed then!

 laughing   rotfl 

You would not even know what to shoot at. You better hurry up and look for a lifejack and jump into in the water! ... but on the opposite side of the ship.
 
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:23 am

Quoting LY744 (Reply 28):
I imagine it can't provide more than about 270 degrees of coverage.

BTW, for what it's worth, the ship was hit in the rear, around where the helicopter landing pad/hangar is located.


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Lumberton
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:25 am

Quoting LY744 (Reply 32):
BTW, for what it's worth, the ship was hit in the rear, around where the helicopter landing pad/hangar is located.

Could have been steaming parallel to the coast, or turning, we just don't know. The more I read in the press, the more I'm convinced that the Israeli navy didn't expect this threat and that the point defense systems weren't fully activated. Anyone who's done some time in this kind of environment knows that there isn't much time from the point of detection to where it can be successfully engaged. That's why there's a fully automatic mode for these type of "last chance" defense systems.
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:01 am

During the Straight of Hurmoz (sp?) crisis in '86-'97 there's was alot of talk about the Iranian's Silk Worm Missiles, do they still use these or are these outdated?
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sun Jul 16, 2006 9:00 am

No PADspot, but any system, even crew operated, should have had a go, if the other more sophisticated systems failed.
If we are talking about some sort of drone, rather than a sea skimming missile, then yes any cannon/heavy machine guns should have attempted to engage.

Are the Isreali's not concerned with another threat, high speed boats with explosives and suicide crew, as in the USS Cole, as attempted off Gibralter in 2002?

USN ships, even the most sophisticated ones, mount cannon and HMG's to counter this, though Phalanx upgrades with EO guidence added, can also be used. RN ships have 20 or 30mm cannon as well as CIWS, you'd think Isreal would too, if so these might have had a chance if some kind of rigged up drone slipped through the more sophisticated systems.

It looks like the Isreali Navy was badly caught out here.

STT757, Silkworms are likely still in use in the region, but again, these are large, needed significant and hard to hide support equipment.
In 1991, a Silkworm fired by the Iraqis, was headed for a US Navy ship, an escorting Royal Navy Type 42 Destroyer, shot it down with a Sea Dart SAM.
 
LY744
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Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 11:55 pm

RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sun Jul 16, 2006 9:59 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 35):
It looks like the Isreali Navy was badly caught out here.

The IDF has really developed a knack for that sort of thing...


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
PADSpot
Posts: 1637
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:31 pm

RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:09 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 35):
If we are talking about some sort of drone, rather than a sea skimming missile, then yes any cannon/heavy machine guns should have attempted to engage.

That was my point some replies before ...
 
Lumberton
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:40 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 35):
It looks like the Isreali Navy was badly caught out here.

Unquestionably! I saw a report on CNN last night that states Israel did not expect a missile threat. If true, it would most likely indicate that the defensive systems were not turned on at the time. I look forward to more information on this.

The lesson here is clear for any naval force operating within missile range of the coast--don't assume there is no threat. This would include Somalia!
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
PADSpot
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sun Jul 16, 2006 9:47 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 38):
The lesson here is clear for any naval force operating within missile range of the coast--don't assume there is no threat. This would include Somalia!

You are basically right, but it was known that Hisballah is/was supported by Syria and Iran.

Somali militias are not officially supported by any state-like entity (maybe Sudan?) that has sophisticated weapons of that sort. The northern militias are allied with the US and thier allies. AFAIK Ships that patrol the Somali coast as part of EF are more afraid of speedboat-attacks rather than SSM-like attacks.
 
LMP737
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:43 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 35):
USN ships, even the most sophisticated ones, mount cannon and HMG's to counter this, though Phalanx upgrades with EO guidence added, can also be used.

Here's a picture of the 25mm cannon typically mounted on USN ships.

http://www.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=24672

Quoting GDB (Reply 35):
In 1991, a Silkworm fired by the Iraqis, was headed for a US Navy ship, an escorting Royal Navy Type 42 Destroyer, shot it down with a Sea Dart SAM.

If memory serves me correctly the Silkworm was aimed at the USS Missouri.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
LMP737
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sun Jul 16, 2006 11:28 pm

Quoting LY744 (Reply 36):
The IDF has really developed a knack for that sort of thing...

Show me a military that does everything perfectly and I'll show you one that doesn't venture out the front gate.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
Lumberton
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Sun Jul 16, 2006 11:29 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 39):
AFAIK Ships that patrol the Somali coast as part of EF are more afraid of speedboat-attacks rather than SSM-like attacks.

Agreed, as we have just seen, one must not disregard either threat. No one knows what may have been smuggled into Somalia?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
jwenting
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:17 am

Quoting Par13del (Reply 29):
I agree and disagree with everything you have said from this point of view, they should have expected it. Israel has used gunboats off the coast of Lebanon before, so they should have assumed that "the enemy" would want to confront that threat as well.

I agree they should have been ready but I can understand why they weren't.
They would have been too far out for RPGs to be a threat and AFAIK noone had any indication the Jihadis posess a weapon like the one used.
It's useless to keep your crew on battle stations against a non-existent (according to your intel) threat, it only damages morale.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 29):
Whats interesting to me is the "American" flavour of this war, in particular the use of air power, so far it has accomplished nothing. If Israel want to stop the rocket barrage, they have to put boots on the ground, somehow this "Air Force" thinking that air power is everything seems to be catching on. To get rockets so deep into Israel, they have to be fired close to the border right?

Soften them up, then go in and mop up what's left.
Worked in '44, '67, '73, '91, and '01.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 34):
During the Straight of Hurmoz (sp?) crisis in '86-'97 there's was alot of talk about the Iranian's Silk Worm Missiles, do they still use these or are these outdated?

They're outdated but they likely still have them.
They're Chinese copies of the SS-N-2C which the Soviets retired in the 1980s and the Egyptians used against the Israelis in the 1970s.
They're way too large and cumbersome for a bunch of terrorists though, being close to the size of a small Cessna.
I wish I were flying
 
Lumberton
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Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:34 am

RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:56 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 43):
They're Chinese copies of the SS-N-2C which the Soviets retired in the 1980s and the Egyptians used against the Israelis in the 1970s.

And...successfully penetrated U.S. air defenses in 2003 due to their cruise missile (non-ballistic) flight profile. Still a very dangerous weapon....
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:01 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 44):
And...successfully penetrated U.S. air defenses in 2003 due to their cruise missile (non-ballistic) flight profile. Still a very dangerous weapon....



Quoting LMP737 (Reply 40):
If memory serves me correctly the Silkworm was aimed at the USS Missouri.

If I remember correctly a Silkworm goes after the strongest radar signal. But even if it hit the Missouri, I don't think it would have done much other then burn the paint. That ship still had it's original slug it out with other battleships armor.

Right if it hits you it doesn't matter how obsolecent the system is.

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 40):
Quoting GDB (Reply 35):
USN ships, even the most sophisticated ones, mount cannon and HMG's to counter this, though Phalanx upgrades with EO guidence added, can also be used.

Here's a picture of the 25mm cannon typically mounted on USN ships.

That is the same basic chain gun mounted on the Bradley, LAV. Ok but the USN setup I like is the one that has the M2 Browning mounted on top of the 82 Mortor.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
LMP737
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:28 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 45):
That is the same basic chain gun mounted on the Bradley, LAV. Ok but the USN setup I like is the one that has the M2 Browning mounted on top of the 82 Mortor.

The the .50 with the motor looks cool. However against a speed boat the mortor is not the most effective thing in the world. The 25mm will dispatch it rather quickly.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
bennett123
Posts: 7527
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:57 am

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/17/mideast/index.html

Is there any more news about the claimed IDF plane.
 
 
GDB
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RE: Hezbollah Uses Drone To Hit Israeli Naval Ship

Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:32 am

Indeed the US BB in 1991 might well have not been too troubled by a Silworm hit, unless it hit the Tomahawk or Harpoon launchers!

This Israeli ship was 10 miles offshore, had the Phalanx not the 76mm.
Pics I've seen might show a helicopter hangar wrecked, if the pic was on that side of the vessel.

I still have problems with relatively large systems like Silkworm, like C.601, the employment of it and the relative lack of very serious damage to the ship.
Even allowing for the warhead being a dud.

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