AirRyan
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Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Sun Jul 23, 2006 2:09 pm

I just cannot see how selling F-22's is going to give away such vital secrets? The F-22 is nearly 15+ years old as it is, and much of it's tech will be mass produced on the JSF anyways. Considering that we are really only talking about selling these to Japan, Australia, and maybe Korea - what's the problem with an export version just like what they are doing with the JSF? The more F-22 sales to foreign customers the more F-22's our USAF can buy! We sold the rights for the F-15 to be built in Japan back when it was our front line USAF fighter and if we can sell AEGIS crusiers to Japan, than what's the problem? Put that window sticker in the canopy and put that baby in the showroom!

Quote:
Showdown Brewing over F-22 Sales
InsideDefense.com NewsStand | John T. Bennett | July 21, 2006

Senate appropriators this week moved to keep in place restrictions that prohibit the Air Force from selling its F-22A fighter to other nations, setting up a conference showdown with their House counterparts who support the idea.

During a July 18 Senate Appropriations defense subcommittee mark-up of the fiscal year 2007 Pentagon spending bill, panel Chairman Ted Stevens (R-Alaska) confirmed the measure would keep in place the so-called “Obey Amendment.”

Tacked onto the FY-98 defense spending measure by Rep. David Obey (D-WI), the provision reflected lawmakers' concerns at that time about secretive technologies planned for the F-22A being passed to potential U.S. adversaries. It prohibits the service from selling the Raptor to any other nation. Obey is now the ranking member of the House Appropriations Committee.

http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,106513,00.html
 
aislepathlight
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Sun Jul 23, 2006 2:36 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Thread starter):
what's the problem with an export version just like what they are doing with the JSF? The more F-22 sales to foreign customers the more F-22's our USAF can buy!

Why don't the politicians get this? More purchases, the cheaper they get...  banghead  They already have top of the line F15s, that are nicer than ours (as do the Koreans), so why can't they have F22s. I would loved to hear why.

Quoting AirRyan (Thread starter):
AEGIS crusiers

That was top of the line, and still is. If we can trust them with that, why can't we trust them with F22s. Do they think that the Japanese are gonna turn around and sell it?  banghead 
bleepbloop
 
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N328KF
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Sun Jul 23, 2006 3:49 pm

IMHO if anyone will be allowed to buy the F-22, it would be UKUSA countries+Israel+Japan.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Sun Jul 23, 2006 3:54 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 2):
IMHO if anyone will be allowed to buy the F-22, it would be UKUSA countries+Israel+Japan.

Thats fine and it would be good to see those countries with them.... BUT... Israel has previously reverse engineered items and sold techonology off to China... which is the big issue in regards to the F-22
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aislepathlight
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales

Sun Jul 23, 2006 3:55 pm

Quoting The Article:
ITAF first reported in February that one top Raptor suitor could be Japan. A plan is being seriously debated by several Air Force general officers. A Japanese defense official has told ITAF several times that his nation is very interested in purchasing the F-22A as a replacement for its F-4 aircraft, and confirmed the Japan Air Self-Defense Force (JASDF) has contacted both Raptor-maker Lockheed Martin and the Air Force about buying the fighter. Also on Japan's fighter short list is the F-35 Lightning II, U.S. and Japanese defense officials told ITAF this spring

Obey explained during the recent floor debate his rationale behind pushing the 1997 amendment, saying: "Because we had given away so much technology by selling other high performance aircraft -- F-15s, F-16s -- we had to regain our technological edge. So I said, 'Well, if that is the case, if we are going to build the [F-22A], at least let's make certain that we hang onto our technology edge this time.'"

Why doesn't Japan get them? There is no good reason. We aren't gonna be at war with them anytime soon. Our freakin bases are there... Why must our damn government and military bureaucracy so stupid?

Just read the thread on there... I wanna shoot myself!

Quoting Stupid poster:
I'm a republican and I agree with the the senate bill. I have friends who fly the Raptor and I do not want them to lose their edge in combat. Look at what happend to the F-14s that were sold to Iran (a friendly nation at that time). Even if we sold the plane to other more stable nations, we can not garantee that they won't give away/sell the secrets.



Quoting Stupid poster 2:
If they do sell these to other countries, there must be a treaty in place saying that said country must never, ever attack us or our interests.

[qoute=Stupid] Short and simple! in the state of the world today we need not sell any of our military technologies to any country as they all become possible enemies in times of instability. [/quote]

There was one senseable post
[quote=Smart poster] So the question is, can we sell F-22's to Japan and be assured that they won't be used against us? I think so and if that's that case, than what is the problem? Sooner or later the tech will be out there anyways with the JSF comes online, so we may as well sell now at a good price to Japan, lowering our own F-22 costs enabling us to buy more, and be done with it.

Seriously, I often wonder where some of these politicians came from. [/qoute]

Edit for additions

[Edited 2006-07-23 09:07:07]
bleepbloop
 
jwenting
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:01 pm

Japan is well known for reverse engineering stuff and selling it as their own...
They for certain also want license production rights, which would mean turning over a lot of classified production technology to them which they could adopt to civilian uses, costing US industry billions for little gain.

And I don't think the current government in Japan can be trusted, they're a bit too cozy with North Korea (even if it is out of fear for becoming a target of a nuclear missile).
In the case of a new Korean war it is now understood that the US most likely can NOT count on bases in Japan for staging and support purposes (bases which were vital in the first installment in 1952). In fact there is a very real possibillity that Japan will openly side with the DPRKs, though more likely by closing their airspace and sealanes and by sending the DPRKs intel information than by active military intervention.

That's not a country you want to have access to your latest miltech!
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stormbringer
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:30 pm

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 5):
In fact there is a very real possibillity that Japan will openly side with the DPRK

Better chance of winning the lottery. What info do you base this on?
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ha763
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Sun Jul 23, 2006 5:52 pm

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 5):
And I don't think the current government in Japan can be trusted, they're a bit too cozy with North Korea

Replace Japan with South Korea and I would agree with you.

There is no way Japan will side with North Korea. With North Korea's latest missile tests, Japan wants severe sanctions placed on North Korea by the UN and has even floated the idea of pre-emptive strikes on North Korean missile sites. I've recently read that Japan is moving to deploy the latest Patriot missile system in Japan. Also, Japan is working with the US on the missile defense system.
 
GDB
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:46 pm

Jwenting, how is Japan cozy with DPRK?
No they are not, they certainly strongly object to DPRK missile tests.
In your parallel universe they might be buddies, but not the real world.

Japan could be a F-22 customer, but could they afford more than a handful?
Without a serious hike in defence spending?
They would also probably want a large degree of Japanese industrial involvement too. But for a small number?

UK won't, no requirement, Typhoon will do the air to air-when fitted with Meteor it will have a better BVR AAM. Also far too expensive for a budget already under strain, Australia has recently publicly said it won't as well.

Israel-well they won't have to pay for them will they?
Unless you are happy with 'selling' F-22 to a nation that in the recent past has been caught out selling sensitive US technology to China.
(Sorry to bang on about this-but I do find it amusing how all the paranoia about how France/EU will do this or that, is totally groundless, yet the one US 'ally' with a history of abusing trust, gets a pass).

Saudi-now that would be risky-if the rotten House Of Saud falls to be replaced by something even worse.

South Korea-again, I just don't see it. For them, again, only a small number could be afforded.

I really don't see anyone else in the market.
 
Stealthz
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:25 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 8):
Australia has recently publicly said it won't as well

I think there are some in the ADF(Well in the RAAF anyway) that would love to have F-22 and with the proliferation of advanced fighter technology in the region that would make some sense but at the current pricing the RAAF could afford very few of them. Having the best asset in the world means little if you can afford so few that you do not have a viable force.

Cheers
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Lumberton
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:45 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 2):
IMHO if anyone will be allowed to buy the F-22, it would be UKUSA countries+Israel+Japan.

Agree with the exception of Israel. See below....

Quoting GDB (Reply 8):
Israel-well they won't have to pay for them will they?
Unless you are happy with 'selling' F-22 to a nation that in the recent past has been caught out selling sensitive US technology to China.
(Sorry to bang on about this-but I do find it amusing how all the paranoia about how France/EU will do this or that, is totally groundless, yet the one US 'ally' with a history of abusing trust, gets a pass).

Israel wouldn't "get a pass". I seriously doubt they'll be getting this aircraft anytime soon. Besides, the technology compromise has been covered ad nauseum many times on this forum--and it should be! Lest some forget!

Quoting GDB (Reply 8):
Saudi-now that would be risky-if the rotten House Of Saud falls to be replaced by something even worse.

But they are buying the Eurofighter....
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
GDB
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:21 am

Typhoon does not have the degree of sensitive LO technology, but yes, the proposed sale has been controversial over here.
Of course, anything really sensitive would be removed.
And I doubt all those Saudi Tornado IDS had nuclear weapon delivery capability.
Besides, if not Typhoon, then it would have been Rafale.
 
MigFan
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:47 am

IMO, the raptor should stay in the US. There need not any reason to export the expensive super-fighter. All of our "allies", save England can just as easily become adversaries with a quick change in political climate.

Damning the cost, the F-22 should not be exported. The UK has their Eurofighter...

/M
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aislepathlight
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:07 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 8):
Japan could be a F-22 customer, but could they afford more than a handful?
Without a serious hike in defence spending?
They would also probably want a large degree of Japanese industrial involvement too. But for a small number?

Japan is one of the largest military spenders if they are going to get them, they will probably just get a couple a year. But because already over half of them have been delivered to the US, they need to order soon if they were to get some

Quoting MigFan (Reply 12):
IMO, the raptor should stay in the US. There need not any reason to export the expensive super-fighter. All of our "allies", save England can just as easily become adversaries with a quick change in political climate.

M/, I thought you would realize that only maybe 3 countries would have the slightest chance of getting them, which I would say are South Korea, Japan, and Israel. And none of these are in a rocky political state. South Korea and Japan would be interested because they have North Korea and its bag of tricks and fun. Israel would want them just so the could have them... at most, they could buy 20 or so. But they might turn around screw us, and sell stuff off of an F22 to someone else. Nothing is going to happen to any of those governments in the next 20 years.

[Edited 2006-07-23 19:08:58]
bleepbloop
 
MigFan
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:16 am

Quoting AislepathLight (Reply 13):
Nothing is going to happen to any of those governments in the next 20 years.

You may be right, in fact you are probably right, but I would not risk comprimising the technology for those reasons. Aside of their nuclear weapons. N.Korea is a bigger threat to the North Koreans than the South or to Japan. The term "pre-emptive strike" comes to mind when I think of N.Korea.

/M
UH-60's suck!!!
 
AirRyan
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:23 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 2):
IMHO if anyone will be allowed to buy the F-22, it would be UKUSA countries+Israel+Japan.

I would only see it being offered to the British, Japanese, and Australians. The British don't need it, the South Koreans just bought F-15K's so they don't need them, either.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 3):
Thats fine and it would be good to see those countries with them.... BUT... Israel has previously reverse engineered items and sold techonology off to China... which is the big issue in regards to the F-22

I don't think the Israeli's ever defied the United States otherwise they wouldn't continued to have supplied Israel with the frontline F-15I and F-16I's.

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 5):
Japan is well known for reverse engineering stuff and selling it as their own...

Just as with Israel, nothing in direct violation to the United States permission

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 5):
They for certain also want license production rights, which would mean turning over a lot of classified production technology to them which they could adopt to civilian uses, costing US industry billions for little gain.

No production rights for the F-22 here: first of all LM is trying to find more orders to keep their own line open which would in turn lower costs for the USAF to perhaps buy more, and any numbers that any other nation would be permitted to build would not be worth the startup costs.

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 5):
And I don't think the current government in Japan can be trusted, they're a bit too cozy with North Korea (even if it is out of fear for becoming a target of a nuclear missile).

Revisit WWII history, they are and never have been cozy with either of the Koreas; they go together about as well as a ManU fan at a Chelsea match.

Quoting Stormbringer (Reply 6):
Quoting Jwenting (Reply 5):
In fact there is a very real possibillity that Japan will openly side with the DPRK

Better chance of winning the lottery. What info do you base this on?

This is just not true.

Quoting Ha763 (Reply 7):
There is no way Japan will side with North Korea. With North Korea's latest missile tests, Japan wants severe sanctions placed on North Korea by the UN and has even floated the idea of pre-emptive strikes on North Korean missile sites. I've recently read that Japan is moving to deploy the latest Patriot missile system in Japan. Also, Japan is working with the US on the missile defense system.

You can rest assure that the Japan is every bit on the same page as the US is when it comes to North Korea, and even the US has better relations with South Korea than Japan does (going back to WWII.)

Quoting GDB (Reply 8):
Japan could be a F-22 customer, but could they afford more than a handful?
Without a serious hike in defence spending?
They would also probably want a large degree of Japanese industrial involvement too. But for a small number?

Even if it was a 24 to 36 unit buy, that would still be significant to the overall F-22 program.

Quoting GDB (Reply 8):
UK won't, no requirement, Typhoon will do the air to air-when fitted with Meteor it will have a better BVR AAM. Also far too expensive for a budget already under strain, Australia has recently publicly said it won't as well.

The US has advanced versions of the AMRAAM that will be available no later than the METEOR that will offer equal if not superior performance.
 
RAPCON
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:07 am

The F22 will be sold to these:

USAF
IDF-AF
JSDAF
RoKAF

Now these three are going to think about it, but will probably not buy it for cost purposes:

RAF
RAAF
Can AF

This af wants it will probably not get it, but if the do, will have to wait at least 15 years:

SaudiAF
Indian AF

These af probably would love to have it but will denied by the US:

Taiwan AF
PakAF
Greek AF
Turkey AF
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L-188
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:27 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 5):
Japan is well known for reverse engineering stuff and selling it as their own...

When has Japan done this and exported the technology?
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Lumberton
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:42 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 11):
Besides, if not Typhoon, then it would have been Rafale.

Sad but true.

Quoting MigFan (Reply 12):
Damning the cost, the F-22 should not be exported. The UK has their Eurofighter...

If Japan asks to purchase the aircraft, they should be permitted. I'd make it conditional on purchasing "full up rounds" from Lockheed-Martin, since it would be cost prohibitive to set up another production line in Japan. We did this with the F-15, but that was a substantial purchase. I'm not sure the Japanese would be in the market for 100+.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 15):
You can rest assure that the Japan is every bit on the same page as the US is when it comes to North Korea,

Same page? They're a few pages ahead! No love here. Ironic that there is a considerable Korean presence in Japan

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 16):
The F22 will be sold to these:

I'd certainly include Singapore. I'd even give them a discount if they cancelled their A380 orders....  duck 
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
MigFan
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:29 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 18):
If Japan asks to purchase the aircraft, they should be permitted.

I can't agree, besides why can't Japan develop their own hi-tech fighter? Does their constitution prohibit them from doing so? The Japanese are certainly capable of such a task. Japanese, Korean, and Chinese technology are so prevalent here in the US it is nauseating. They litter our roads with their crummy vehicles, why should we sell them our best technological stock? They should get their own...

/M
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aislepathlight
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:50 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 18):

If Japan asks to purchase the aircraft, they should be permitted. I'd make it conditional on purchasing "full up rounds" from Lockheed-Martin, since it would be cost prohibitive to set up another production line in Japan. We did this with the F-15, but that was a substantial purchase. I'm not sure the Japanese would be in the market for 100+.

Nah, just make'm here, and fly'm across. Setting up a line there would make everything more expensive, rather than less.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 18):
Same page? They're a few pages ahead! No love here. Ironic that there is a considerable Korean presence in Japan

What? There is no Korean presence in Japan.

Quoting Migfan (Reply 19):
I can't agree, besides why can't Japan develop their own hi-tech fighter? Does their constitution prohibit them from doing so? The Japanese are certainly capable of such a task. Japanese, Korean, and Chinese technology are so prevalent here in the US it is nauseating. They litter our roads with their crummy vehicles, why should we sell them our best technological stock? They should get their own...

They can buy ours... why would they want to make their own?
bleepbloop
 
Lumberton
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales

Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:08 am

Quoting AislepathLight (Reply 20):
What? There is no Korean presence in Japan.

On the contrary, there is a significant Korean population in Japan. Check it out! From Wikipedia:

Quote:
Koreans in Japan
South Koreans in Japan are called Zainichi Chōsenjin (在日朝鮮人, for North Koreans) or Zainichi Kankokujin (在日韓国人, for South Koreans) in Japanese and Jaeil Gyopo (재일교포; 在日僑胞 Wink in Korean. There are 529,000 Koreans in Japan, amounting to 40.4% of the non-Japanese population of the country. Three-quarters of the Koreans living in Japan are Japanese-born, and most are legal aliens.

for anyone who's spent time in Japan, 500K+ is a lot of "gaijin"!

[Edited 2006-07-23 23:12:27]
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
aislepathlight
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:46 am

I don't really trust wiki for much, but I will trust them on that.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 21):

for anyone who's spent time in Japan, 500K+ is a lot of "gaijin"!

I lived in Japan for half a year. But there are 125 milion people Japan... that is 1/250, or is the ratio of Korean to Japanese. there are roughly 2 million koreans living in America, and 295 milion Americans in america, so about 1/100. That makes the Korean population in Japan seem small
bleepbloop
 
Lumberton
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:32 am

Quoting AislepathLight (Reply 22):
That makes the Korean population in Japan seem small

As a percentage of the total "foreign" presence, they are significant.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 18):
If Japan asks to purchase the aircraft, they should be permitted. I'd make it conditional on purchasing "full up rounds" from Lockheed-Martin,



Quoting AislepathLight (Reply 20):
Nah, just make'm here, and fly'm across

"Full Up Round" = navy speak for ready to fire. In other words, made here and flown there.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:08 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 15):
I don't think the Israeli's ever defied the United States otherwise they wouldn't continued to have supplied Israel with the frontline F-15I and F-16I's.

F-15 and F-16 are old designs...hardly a major threat if info about them is leaked. The F-22 is a stealth aircraft... this is the MAJOR point of difference. If China got its hands on design info etc and could develop its own stealth aircraft eventually then this could cause a big problem for the US but also for other countries...particularly Taiwan...China could attack Taiwan before the Taiwanese even knew what was happening.

It would be great to see Australia with the F-22 but it is just simply too expensive for them. I wonder however if it might actually be an idea for the US to sell them to Australia at cost price only (not charging development costs etc). This way a staunch US ally could have compatible aircraft and make sure that that part of the world is secure on the USA's behalf. It would increase the run of F-22 aircraft and whilst it wouldn't reduce the costs per aircraft much overall it would still have some effect. The US would not make a profit out of it, but then again it might help them reduce some of their own costs slightly whilst at the same time it would keep some of those manufacturing jobs and of course the ongoing costs (missiles etc).
56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
 
aislepathlight
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:22 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 23):
"Full Up Round"

Ahh, good to know. Thanks!

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 24):
I wonder however if it might actually be an idea for the US to sell them to Australia at cost price only (not charging development costs etc). This way a staunch US ally could have compatible aircraft and make sure that that part of the world is secure on the USA's behalf.

If we can have two outside customers, I think that Japan and Korea would make the most sense. As long as there is a large US presence in both, we can get extra spares if need be. Also, they would make larger orders than Australia, lowering the cost. After the cost is lowered, in say 5 years, I think that it would make sense for them to get F22s.
bleepbloop
 
Oroka
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:57 pm

F-22 for Japan... and maybe S Korea. Those are the only countries who really NEED air superiority in their region on short notice.


How about not selling the F-22s, but leasing them to those foreign Air Forces. The foreign pilots get trained in the US, the aircraft is maintained by a US ground unit. The whole unit is sent to the respective country like that. As long as no one is poking their fingers where they shouldn't be, and the aircraft are in top operating condition... it should the same as selling the fighters to them, but keeping your secrets... secret.
 
Lumberton
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:02 pm

Quoting Oroka (Reply 26):
How about not selling the F-22s, but leasing them to those foreign Air Forces. The foreign pilots get trained in the US, the aircraft is maintained by a US ground unit. The whole unit is sent to the respective country like that.

Like a dry lease for commercial aircraft? Could work, but if by a U.S. ground unit you mean U.S. military personnel, then that would complicate matters. Using contractors would be a work around.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
deltadc9
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:00 pm

Quoting AislepathLight (Reply 4):
Why doesn't Japan get them? There is no good reason. We aren't gonna be at war with them anytime soon.

The F-22, with its stealth capability, can be seen as a destabilising presence. It is overtly an offensive weapon. Japans constitution intends that the Japanese only field a defense, not an offense, so there are considerations there.

Also, Japans neighbors could easily take an F-22 purchase in a very different light than a F-15, even though there is not much of a difference in its primary mission. Image is everything.

Point being, while Japan may buy the F-22 if Congress allows it, they still have political, constitutional, and image considerations to deal with. Real or perceived, doesn't matter.

Personally, I think Japan has proved itself to be a pretty good citizen of the world, and their military stance should be reconsidered at some point. But with Japan, while we can trust them, we are forced to verify everything because they do not have a perfect track record by any means.

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 5):
Japan is well known for reverse engineering stuff and selling it as their own...

Some things cannot effectively be reverse engineered, no matter how good you are at it.

Quoting AislepathLight (Reply 1):
That was top of the line, and still is. If we can trust them with that, why can't we trust them with F22s. Do they think that the Japanese are gonna turn around and sell it?



Quoting AislepathLight (Reply 4):
Why doesn't Japan get them? There is no good reason.

Uh, guys, how short your memory is! Or maybe you are just very young. Dont know.

Japan has in the past been responsible for HUGE breeches in illegal and unethical military technology transfers.

Prime example, the transfer of the bleeding edge technology to make super quiet submarine propellers to the Russians. Set us back a decade at least. It can't get much worse than that, seeing that the sub fleet is our most potent stealth weapon.

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 5):
And I don't think the current government in Japan can be trusted, they're a bit too cozy with North Korea

The hate between the Koreans and the Japanese goes back so far they are not sure of its origins. The enslavement of Korean woman by the Japanese during WWII along with other abuses and atrocities are still fresh in the Korean memory, and there is bad blood in the other direction also than makes your statement nothing short of Bizzaro World.

Quoting AirRyan (Thread starter):
The F-22 is nearly 15+ years old as it is,

No, the flight demonstrator is. The F-22 is as old as its design freeze not taking into consideration the massive change control effort. Some parts of the F-22 are newer than the first one off the line. These things are living projects, evolving over time.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
AirRyan
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:33 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 28):
Quoting AirRyan (Thread starter):
The F-22 is nearly 15+ years old as it is,

No, the flight demonstrator is. The F-22 is as old as its design freeze not taking into consideration the massive change control effort. Some parts of the F-22 are newer than the first one off the line. These things are living projects, evolving over time.

Sure, but the F-14D was continually evolving up until it's last deployment, too. The F-22 design is so old that they have already once at least had to spend an additional large sum of money to replace all of the onboard computers because they had grown outdated. I know there is a big difference in the PC computer on my desk than there was ten years ago, but Grumman for example had no problem going from the drawing board (no CAD, either) to the flight line in just over a year back in 1971, and that wasn't exactly a uncomplicated design, either.
 
bennett123
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:04 am

Oroka

How about not selling the F-22s, but leasing them to those foreign Air Forces. The foreign pilots get trained in the US, the aircraft is maintained by a US ground unit. The whole unit is sent to the respective country like that. As long as no one is poking their fingers where they shouldn't be, and the aircraft are in top operating condition... it should the same as selling the fighters to them, but keeping your secrets... secret.

It would be better to buy an aircraft that you can use to carry out your policies, rather than simply act as a US proxy.

Besides, you can both afford and needs this aircraft.

Finally, IMO it is better to have a larger number of slightly less capable aircraft.
 
aislepathlight
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:07 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 28):
The F-22, with its stealth capability, can be seen as a destabilising presence. It is overtly an offensive weapon. Japans constitution intends that the Japanese only field a defense, not an offense, so there are considerations there.

Yeah, I know that, but you gotta think, "Why does Japan have tanks? Why does Japan have Subs?" Those are all mainly offensive weapons. Their regular navy makes sense, as it is an island nation, and the navy would be its defense. What are its tanks for? They have very little purpose, only to provide defense in case of a invasion. Any invasion would have to have a huge sea armada, which would be attacked by the Japanese SDF Navy. Other than that, the only other ways an invasion force could be inserted is by airdrop, which is impractical and a tactical night mere, or by the Soviet tunnel... which would have taken more than a couple tanks to stop. Why does Japan have Subs? You could argue to defend Japan from attack, but subs are mainly an offensive weapon. The F22, while designed as an air superiority fighter, would help Japan in a skirmish with either NK or China, if ever it was to come to that.
bleepbloop
 
deltadc9
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:25 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 29):
The F-22 design is so old that they have already once at least had to spend an additional large sum of money to replace all of the onboard computers because they had grown outdated.

This happens with every plane. The Space Shuttle started out with 8088 processors. Software is updated almost non stop. Engines evolve during production runs, paint technology changes, even things like light bulbs have evolved in just a few years. That is why an F-14A is a POS compared to a F-14D. Is the F-14D really as old as a F-14A? The logic of your argument says yes.

I just dont buy this F-22 is 15 years old stuff. Sorry.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
GDB
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:28 am

Well MigFan, I suspect you might not have a handle on how deep the UK-US co-operation is in areas like nuclear arms, intelligence/signit.
For many decades, and those two examples were chosen as they are about the most sensitive.

But England? Maybe, but there is no such country-not on my passport.
Maybe 'England' could have a spat with the US Midwest/South/West.

As for the comment about 'crummy' vehicles on US roads, from the far east nations, considering the Americans unique love (and need) for cars, that there are so many of them (most built in the US), they cannot be that 'crummy' could they.

For some, 'Not Invented Here' has never gone away.
 
aislepathlight
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:36 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 33):
Well MigFan, I suspect you might not have a handle on how deep the UK-US co-operation is in areas like nuclear arms, intelligence/signit.

GDB: I can understand your frustration, but some people know more than others. You are one of these people who know more

MigFan: You gotta stop getting pissed so easily. Also, if people know more than you, respect their knowledge, and learn. The US/UK have been really close, with them using our missiles, with their own systems on it. When a british sub need a loadout, they steam to the US, and fill up on what they need. That is just the tip of the iceburg. Do some reaserch. There are many good books out there, and you have access to the web, so get some facts.
bleepbloop
 
daedaeg
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:56 am

Wasn't the whole purpose of designing the F-22 to ensure the US would have absolute air superiority to any other force, since we were exporting everything else?
Everyday you're alive is a good day.
 
MigFan
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:39 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 33):
I suspect you might not have a handle on how deep the UK-US co-operation is in areas like nuclear arms, intelligence/signit.

I am aware that the Brits still refer to us as colonists. Although no noe may agree, I favor an isolationist approach toward the rest of the world from an American point of view. From where I stand exporting America's top fighter is out of the question.

Quoting AislepathLight (Reply 34):
You gotta stop getting pissed so easily. Also, if people know more than you, respect their knowledge, and learn.

I am not pissed. Nothing in these forums gets me upset. I have the right to disagree, and keep my opinion just like anyone else. It seems like others are the ones with the problems when I do not agree. If you don't like my opinion or point of view, there is not much I can do for you. As far as respect goes, you get what you give. I am not getting too much here, so why should I give?

Quoting Daedaeg (Reply 35):
Wasn't the whole purpose of designing the F-22 to ensure the US would have absolute air superiority to any other force, since we were exporting everything else?

That is what I thought...

/M
UH-60's suck!!!
 
bennett123
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:58 am

Colonists? Who has called you that recently.

As for isolationism, my understanding is that the Monroe doctrine is explicitly Non Isolationist.
 
MigFan
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:37 am

I work with some English folks, they like to tease us. It is all in good fun. I just tell them where Home Depot plans to open another store...

I am not familiar with the Monroe Doctrine, I am not Monroe, but I can't see the good US involvement in foreign affiars brings.

Why can't the US leave the rest of the world alone ???

/M
UH-60's suck!!!
 
bennett123
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:50 am

http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/democrac/50.htm

My understanding of the 1st para of the doctrine is that it asserts the right of the USA to determine the policies of the entire continent.
 
MigFan
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:22 am

Quote:

"The United States would not interfere in European wars or internal affairs, and expected Europe to stay out of American affairs."

Oops...

/M
UH-60's suck!!!
 
bennett123
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:53 am

In the discussions to which this interest has given rise and in the arrangements by which they may terminate the occasion has been judged proper for asserting, as a principle in which the rights and interests of the United States are involved, that the American continents, by the free and independent condition which they have assumed and maintain, are henceforth not to be considered as subjects for future colonization by any European powers....

The point that I was making is that the statement is made on behalf of "the American continents" not the USA. Did all of these other countries agree to the USA making statements on their behalf.
 
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RE: Showdown Brewing Over US Export The F-22 Sales...

Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:38 am

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 41):
The point that I was making is that the statement is made on behalf of "the American continents" not the USA. Did all of these other countries agree to the USA making statements on their behalf.

No. The Europeans who ran those other "countries" wouldn't let them agree or disagree.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt

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