lnglive1011yyz
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Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:23 pm

Best Spot To Watch A Shuttle Launch?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:32 am

Folks,

I'm travelling to Florida (Specifically Orlando and the "Space Coast") during the launch window of Atlantis' next flight (August 27th), and I have never witnessed a Launch before..

I fly into FL on the Saturday, and the launch is on the Sunday.

I'm just curious as to where the best place for me to view a launch would be, other than the KSC itself (you can buy passes for the Visitor's centre ). ??

If there are any Floridians reading, would being south of the KSC versus North at 4:50 in the afternoon be better for photography/video??

I know this is an odd question for this forum, but I really hope someone can help me out!

If anyone has any other tips, it'd be great!

Thanks!

Mike (1011yyz)
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Best Spot To Watch A Shuttle Launch?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:31 am

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Thread starter):
I'm just curious as to where the best place for me to view a launch would be, other than the KSC itself (you can buy passes for the Visitor's centre ). ??

The closest place to view a launch are the VIP and media pavillions, which are not open to the public, IIRC.

Popular places to view Shuttle launches are the Jetty Maritime Park and various highway points:

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/kennedy/about/view/view_shuttle.html
 
lnglive1011yyz
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Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:23 pm

RE: Best Spot To Watch A Shuttle Launch?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:17 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 1):
The closest place to view a launch are the VIP and media pavillions, which are not open to the public, IIRC.

You can buy tickets to a stand that is 6 miles from the shuttle, on the roadway that leads up to the pads.. Those were gone a long time ago. There's also an option to buy tickets for the visitor's centre, but I am not sure how good those would be.. as you'd be quite far from the site.

The NASA site lists US Highway 1 as a good location, especially near Titusville, but not being from the area, I'm curious as to where you'd stop? Do the police let you just pull over to the side of the road?? lol.

Any help or advice anyone could give would be awesome.. I plan to be out at the coast around 8/9 am, so I can just park my a$$ there.

Thanks!

Mike
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
TedTAce
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RE: Best Spot To Watch A Shuttle Launch?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:13 am

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 2):
here's also an option to buy tickets for the visitor's centre

Take it, I would if I had the cash!! It's a LOT better then the 'off property sites' Though you don't have the best visibility for the initial launch phase, you get the sound pretty well.

http://www.airspaceonline.com/STS121/ has pictures of the last launch from where I'd take you (Titusville) if you didn't get an onsite pass.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Best Spot To Watch A Shuttle Launch?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:24 am

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 2):
You can buy tickets to a stand that is 6 miles from the shuttle, on the roadway that leads up to the pads.. Those were gone a long time ago

Really ??

Now that's interesting. Where can you go to buy such tickets for future launches?
 
TedTAce
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RE: Best Spot To Watch A Shuttle Launch?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:33 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 4):

Now that's interesting. Where can you go to buy such tickets for future launches?

http://kennedyspacecenter.stores.yahoo.net/ (for all packages)

and http://kennedyspacecenter.stores.yahoo.net/maaclavifrke.html (for the best package left as of this post)

[Edited 2006-08-18 04:35:45]
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Best Spot To Watch A Shuttle Launch?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:38 pm

Well that's cool. I thought you had to me either media or VIP to watch the launch from within the KSC perimeter.

I've been making plans to go view either STS-118 or -120 next summer, and was counting on a personal connection to score me some VIP tickets. This gives me some hope of viewing it from somewhere better than the causeway if my hook-up doesn't work.

Does anyone have an idea of when the tickets become available or where the exact viewing stand is?
 
RAPCON
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RE: Best Spot To Watch A Shuttle Launch?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:28 pm

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 2):
The NASA site lists US Highway 1 as a good location, especially near Titusville, but not being from the area, I'm curious as to where you'd stop? Do the police let you just pull over to the side of the road??

You can see that sucker go all the way from Tampa. But, yes, try the places around US1. I've sat in the outside deck at the Hooters in Cocoa and watch the launch.

If you really feel adventurous, join the USN and get assigned to a Mayport-based unit. They have to pull "Shuttle Support" duty (security, rescue, booster search, etc.) and you get an incredible angle--unless it blows up and you end up like what happened to the USS SIMS where she found herself being bombarded with debris from the Challanger for over 2 hours.
MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
 
lnglive1011yyz
Posts: 1502
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:23 pm

RE: Best Spot To Watch A Shuttle Launch?

Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:09 pm

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 7):
You can see that sucker go all the way from Tampa. But, yes, try the places around US1. I've sat in the outside deck at the Hooters in Cocoa and watch the launch.

Now that's a cool idea.. Question for you though -- from Cocoa Beach, was it easily discernable? If you had a camera with say, a 200MM lens on it, would you be able to get any good shots off???

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 7):
If you really feel adventurous, join the USN and get assigned to a Mayport-based unit. They have to pull "Shuttle Support" duty (security, rescue, booster search, etc.) and you get an incredible angle--unless it blows up and you end up like what happened to the USS SIMS where she found herself being bombarded with debris from the Challanger for over 2 hours.

Well, that's definitely adventuresome. Not sure that's for me though LOL hahaha

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 6):
Does anyone have an idea of when the tickets become available or where the exact viewing stand is?

My understanding is that they go on sale when a final launch date has been determined for the launch. READ ALL THE RULES. There's unbelievably tough rules and regulations you must follow. Not only that, but the reason why I'm not buying the All-Access pass (or whatever one is left over) is that there's some freaky rule that if you're on-site, and they cancel the shuttle, your pass is null and void or something.. Plus, you don't get quite the same access to KSC as you normally would during a tour --> Something I want to do fiercly.

Thanks all!

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
sprout5199
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RE: Best Spot To Watch A Shuttle Launch?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 3:03 am

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 7):
If you really feel adventurous, join the USN and get assigned to a Mayport-based unit. They have to pull "Shuttle Support" duty (security, rescue, booster search, etc.) and you get an incredible angle--unless it blows up and you end up like what happened to the USS SIMS where she found herself being bombarded with debris from the Challanger for over 2 hours.

When I was on the USS Flatley we did that,I forget what launch it was, 1988 or 1989. was cool. Watching the IFF display the speed and alt. We lost it at 100,000+ feet and 8,000 mph. We were down range safety ship or something like that. About 100 miles east of the cape.

Dan in Jupiter
 
Thorny
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RE: Best Spot To Watch A Shuttle Launch?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 3:41 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 4):
Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 2):
You can buy tickets to a stand that is 6 miles from the shuttle, on the roadway that leads up to the pads.. Those were gone a long time ago

Really ??

Not quite. The tickets you can buy from Delaware North (the company that operates the KSC Visitors Complex) take you on busses out on the NASA Causeway, which crosses the Banana River seperating Kennedy Space Center and Cape Canaveral Air Force Station. There is also an option to stay at the Visitors Complex and watch the launch from there (although there is no view of the pad from there.) You aren't going to be on the road that goes to the Pad (nobody but the perimeter rescue team is that close.) The VIPs and astronaut families/invitees watch the launch from the Apollo-Saturn V Center (museum) north of the VAB. The general public and the media aren't allowed there (ever since Challenger when the families' horror was captured on Live TV.)

To answer the original question, I would recommend finding a spot along the Indian River in the Titusville area (anywhere north of SR-405, I think it is, that crosses the river over to KSC.) The sun will be behind you and the Shuttle will draw a fine arc to your left (northeast) across the sky. Yes, there are many places to legally pull over and park. Even so, in the last minute or two of the countdown, traffic will pretty much stop everywhere in the vicinity to watch it.
 
RAPCON
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RE: Best Spot To Watch A Shuttle Launch?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 3:45 am

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 8):
Now that's a cool idea.. Question for you though -- from Cocoa Beach, was it easily discernable? If you had a camera with say, a 200MM lens on it, would you be able to get any good shots off???

Dunno. Camera stuff is beyond my expertise. It's still a really nice view!

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 9):
When I was on the USS Flatley we did that,I forget what launch it was, 1988 or 1989. was cool. Watching the IFF display the speed and alt. We lost it at 100,000+ feet and 8,000 mph. We were down range safety ship or something like that. About 100 miles east of the cape.

FFG = POS!!

When we got stuck with shuttle support--USS ELMER MONTGOMERY (FF-1082)-we usually hovered around 50nm down range. We would depart MYPT about 5 days before launch, but would stay close to the beach (10-20nm) so we could pick up tv and check out the girls on the boats. About 24hr prior to liftoff we'd run out to our station. The biggest problem was that since the shuttle was/is usually delayed for one mickey mouse thing or another, the week long duty would normally average out almost 2 weeks.

AND THIS WAS ACCOMPLISHED WAY TOO MANY TIMES DURING OUR POST-DEPLOYMENT REST TIME!!!

p.s. My ex OPS boss was a JO on USS SIMS (FF-1059) when Challenger blew. He told me that it felt as if he was under a rain of fire for 2 hours as SIMS was repeatedly hit by fiery debris.
MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
 
sprout5199
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RE: Best Spot To Watch A Shuttle Launch?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:12 am

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 11):
FFG = POS!!

As opposed to an FF? give me a fig anyday.

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 11):
AND THIS WAS ACCOMPLISHED WAY TOO MANY TIMES DURING OUR POST-DEPLOYMENT REST TIME!!!

What's that? We went reserve BEFORE we got back from the PG in Dec 1987, spent more at sea time in 1988 as a reserve than in 1987 when we did a six month deployment. Fu*&ing reserves.

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 11):
My ex OPS boss was a JO on USS SIMS (FF-1059) when Challenger blew.

I was in ET "a" school in great mistakes. Class just stopped that day.

Down here in south Florida, we can see the launches pretty good as long as its clear. And depending on the orbit, we get them flying over on the way back home. Had my ex wake me up one night cuz she heard 2 big BOOMs. The shuttle on its way home.

Dan in Jupiter
 
Thorny
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RE: Best Spot To Watch A Shuttle Launch?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:06 am

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 11):
The biggest problem was that since the shuttle was/is usually delayed for one mickey mouse thing or another, the week long duty would normally average out almost 2 weeks.

Actually, the Shuttle's on-time launch record got pretty good in the 90s, and then started to decline again in 2000 when they started launching with 5-minute-long windows to the Space Station. Sounds like your experience was 1984-86.

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 11):
p.s. My ex OPS boss was a JO on USS SIMS (FF-1059) when Challenger blew. He told me that it felt as if he was under a rain of fire for 2 hours as SIMS was repeatedly hit by fiery debris.

Sounds like he's telling tall tales. There are no ships under the groundtrack of a Shuttle at launch. Never have been. Probably had a damned good view of the disaster, certainly. But the "flaming debris hitting the ship" assertion is ludicrous.

Worse for his case, live TV showed the debris coming down and hitting the ocean... no ships in sight.
 
RAPCON
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RE: Best Spot To Watch A Shuttle Launch?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:19 am

Quoting Thorny (Reply 13):
Sounds like he's telling tall tales. There are no ships under the groundtrack of a Shuttle at launch. Never have been. Probably had a damned good view of the disaster, certainly. But the "flaming debris hitting the ship" assertion is ludicrous.

Oh no tall tales at all!! I've seen photos of the damage to SIMS, and of the pieces all over the deck! The footprint of debris was huge and there was no way for SIMS to run away from it.

BTW, finest officer I ever served with.
MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
 
TedTAce
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RE: Best Spot To Watch A Shuttle Launch?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:10 pm

Anyway, back on subject.

I have seen several launches (including the ill fated columbia) from south of KTMB. The main diference between, being in Miami, Lake Wales, Longwood, Titsuville, and on property is how much you FEEL the launch. Obviously from a range of over 30 miles the only diference is what you see, and the closer you are, the more you feel/hear.

The advantage to being farther away is you know you are not going to get anything better then a wide shot of the action and are going to be less prone to taking a picture that is degraded by the afternoon heat mirage. Now if you are REALLY close, this is not too much of a problem, BUT if you are somewhat close like Titusville things get very weird. If you look at the launch pics @ http://www.airspaceonline.com/STS121/ at full resolution, you'll notice that the pictures basically suck because of the heat effect.
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RAPCON
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RE: Best Spot To Watch A Shuttle Launch?

Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:18 pm

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 12):
Had my ex wake me up one night cuz she heard 2 big BOOMs. The shuttle on its way home.

Whenever I'm home (TPA), and the Shuttle is returning, I rely on the family dog to let me know when to turn on the tv--the booms are bearly audible for humans but not for the hound.
MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
 
Thorny
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RE: Best Spot To Watch A Shuttle Launch?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:07 am

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 14):
Oh no tall tales at all!! I've seen photos of the damage to SIMS, and of the pieces all over the deck! The footprint of debris was huge and there was no way for SIMS to run away from it.

I'm willing to bet that if you ask again, you'll find that the "debris on the deck" was debris recovered from the sea hours after the accident during search-and-rescue operations. Neither the Sims, nor any other vessel, was under the Challenger ground track during the accident. The debris impact zone was large, but still confined essentially to along the planned ground track, with no ships being anywhere near it (if there were, that would have been a violation of launch commit criteria).

I stand by my assertion that the "flaming debris hitting the ship" is a tall tale.

Here are a few references from the official Challenger transcript/timeline. (The accident occured at T+1 min 13 sec.)

T+3 min 25 sec

TV tracking camera: The first pieces of debris can be seen splashing into the ocean.

T+4 min 15 sec

Television tracking camera closeup shows ocean surface east of Patrick Air Force Station. A large cloud of ruddy brown smoke hangs over surface of water as objects splash on impact nearby. The cloud probably was caused by hydrazine rocket fuel from wreckage that hit the water.

T+5 min 05 sec

FIDO: "Flight, FIDO."
Greene: "Go ahead."
FIDO: "The vacuum IP (impact point) is 28.64 North, 80.28 West."
Greene: "How does that stack with the solid (rocket) recovery forces?" Greene is referring to the Liberty Star and the Freedom Star, two NASA ships on station in the Atlantic to recover Challenger's boosters after a normal launch.
FIDO: "We're still talking to them."
Greene: "OK."

T+5 min 36 sec

TV tracking camera: A dark, irregularly shaped piece of debris - thought to be one of Challenger's wings - cartwheels down from the sky and splashes into the Atlantic. It is the largest piece of Challenger seen on TV impacting in the ocean.

T+7 min 17 sec

Greene: "Flight, FIDO..."
FIDO: "FIDO, flight, go ahead sir."
Greene: "Are the LSO's on the loop?"
FIDO: "We can get 'em."
Greene: "Get 'em up on the loop, please."
LSO (coordinating recovery activity; identity unknown): "Yes sir, this is the LSO."
Greene: "OK, are there any forces headed out that way?"
LSO: "Yes sir. DOD (Department of Defense) LSO reports that all ... forces have been scrambled and they are on their way."
Greene: "OK, do we have an ETA?"
LSO: "Negative, sir."

T+9 min 36 sec

LSO: "This is LSO on flight loop."
Greene: "Rog, are you getting any inputs?"
LSO: "Sir, we've got a Jolly 1 (helicopter) on route right now. We've got ships on the way and we've got a C-130 (Hercules) on the way out."
Greene: "Rog."

T+11 min 39 sec

LSO: "Flight, LSO."
Greene: "Go ahead."
LSO: "Uh, Jolly's have not been cleared in yet, there's still debris coming down."
Greene: "Copy. Who's controlling this operation, please?"
LSO: "S & R (search and recovery) forces out of Patrick (Air Force Base)."
Greene: "Rog. Do we have a coordination loop with those people?"
LSO: "We're working with the SOC on DDMS coord right now." He is referring to a radio network used by Defense Department personnel.

T+15 min 06 sec

LSO: "Flight, LSO."
Greene: "LSO?"
LSO: "Looks like about 50 minutes, five-zero minutes, before the helicopters are cleared in because of debris."
Greene: "Fifty minutes from what time, LSO?"
LSO: "OK, from the time of the explosion."

Greene was Flight Director Jay Greene at Mission Control. FIDO is the Flight Dynamics Officer. LSO is Landing Support Officer.
 
sprout5199
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RE: Best Spot To Watch A Shuttle Launch?

Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:29 am

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 16):
Whenever I'm home (TPA), and the Shuttle is returning, I rely on the family dog to let me know when to turn on the tv--the booms are bearly audible for humans but not for the hound.

thats odd, I would think that you could hear it pretty good, but I guess its too high over tampa. I know the next morning it was all over the news down here, due to a lot of people calling 911 saying they heard explosions.

Dan in Jupiter
 
Thorny
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RE: Best Spot To Watch A Shuttle Launch?

Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:02 am

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 18):
thats odd, I would think that you could hear it pretty good, but I guess its too high over tampa. I know the next morning it was all over the news down here, due to a lot of people calling 911 saying they heard explosions.

Just for a gee-whiz comment...

I've heard the sonic boom from San Angelo, TX. We must be 1,000 miles uprange out here. The one I heard was on Columbia's last successful flight, in March, 2002, coming back from the Hubble Space Telescope. The re-entry was visually spectacular, we were almost directly on the entry groundtrack. I waited about three or four minutes after Columbia vanished over the eastern horizon and then heard one boom (too distant for the double-boom effect, I guess). It set off a few neighborhood dogs, so I wasn't imagining it. This was about 4 am Central Time.
 
TedTAce
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RE: Best Spot To Watch A Shuttle Launch?

Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:30 am

Quoting Thorny (Reply 19):
This was about 4 am Central Time.

Which is probably the only time of day you'd be able to hear a faint OV boom. It's another reason I live here in the greater MCO area, Unless it comes up from the south, you are going to hear the booms in MCO land Big grin
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usnseallt82
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RE: Best Spot To Watch A Shuttle Launch?

Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:02 am

I was wondering this the other day when I heard of the upcoming launch. I'm in Jax now and wondered if a spot on the beach as far up as St. Augustine, which is closer to where I live, would still see the sight?

I'm guessing it probably will be visible, as the launch site isn't too far south from there, granted that its a clear day.

I'll see about getting out there. I'd like to watch it.

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 12):
great mistakes

Been there, done that. Have the shitty t-shirt to prove it.  Big grin
Crye me a river
 
Thorny
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RE: Best Spot To Watch A Shuttle Launch?

Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:16 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 21):
I was wondering this the other day when I heard of the upcoming launch. I'm in Jax now and wondered if a spot on the beach as far up as St. Augustine, which is closer to where I live, would still see the sight?

Yes, assuming clear skies. It will help that the Shuttle will be travelling generally your direction.
 
sprout5199
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RE: Best Spot To Watch A Shuttle Launch?

Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:22 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 21):
I was wondering this the other day when I heard of the upcoming launch. I'm in Jax now and wondered if a spot on the beach as far up as St. Augustine, which is closer to where I live, would still see the sight?

If its clear, you should see it real good. The cape is closer to Jax than Jupiter where I am and I see it pretty good. When I was stationed in Mayport, I lived a block from the beach, but I don't remember seeing any launches(hard to see from inside a titty bar Smile )

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 21):
Been there, done that. Have the shitty t-shirt to prove it.

Thank God I was only there for ET"A" school(Nov'85 to June'86). Am a native Floridian and never seen snow till then.IT SUCKED, glad Milwaukee was close and I could drink there.  drunk 

Dan in Jupiter
 
TedTAce
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RE: Best Spot To Watch A Shuttle Launch?

Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:12 pm

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 21):
St. Augustine

The only ways you will mis the Launch from St. augustine are if it's TOTALLY overcast, OR you are facing NNW. Elsewise you will see SOMETHING.
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usnseallt82
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RE: Best Spot To Watch A Shuttle Launch?

Sun Aug 27, 2006 3:33 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 24):
Elsewise you will see SOMETHING.

Nice. Guess it'll have to wait until Monday, though. Now delayed 24 hours because of a lightening strike.
Crye me a river
 
texfly101
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RE: Best Spot To Watch A Shuttle Launch?

Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:52 pm

Paul's Smokehouse, near the intersection of A1A and SR 50, in Titusville. Buy yourself a cold beer, sit on the veranda, watch the liftoff right out the window. But get there early as its a "locals" spot. If its not happening during business hours, go to the Indian River public boat launch on A1A between the two powerplant's (FPC and OUC) smokestacks in Port St John. Picnic tables, parking lot, easy access. Both places have as good a view as the causeways (one's north and the other is south of the causeways) and you won't be caught in that traffic.
 
Thorny
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RE: Best Spot To Watch A Shuttle Launch?

Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:10 pm

Quoting Texfly101 (Reply 26):
Paul's Smokehouse, near the intersection of A1A and SR 50, in Titusville.

A1A is on the beach. You mean US-1.
 
texfly101
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RE: Best Spot To Watch A Shuttle Launch?

Sat Sep 02, 2006 3:47 am

Quoting Thorny (Reply 17):
(if there were, that would have been a violation of launch commit criteria).

Trust him on that one, he's correct

Quoting Thorny (Reply 27):
A1A is on the beach. You mean US-1.

oops, you're right. When I lived in Port St John, I forgot that it was US 1...the last place I lived, in Cocoa Beach was on AIA...got it mixed up, thanks for reminding me.

But I still stand by Paul's Smokehouse... One bennie of that place is that there is always someone who works at the Cape or one of area retiree's there at happy hour. For the price of a drink, you can get some interesting stories for free from people who were really there during the Apollo days and current Shuttle support. I'll bet that Thorny has visited the second floor for their excellent happy hour repast... Smile
 
deltadc9
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RE: Best Spot To Watch A Shuttle Launch?

Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:39 pm

I would have to say the best place to watch a launch would be from the left seat.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
sprout5199
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RE: Best Spot To Watch A Shuttle Launch?

Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:19 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 29):
I would have to say the best place to watch a launch would be from the left seat.

right seat, in back, hell even on the sh!tter.

Dan in Jupiter
 
TedTAce
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RE: Best Spot To Watch A Shuttle Launch?

Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:39 pm

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 29):
I would have to say the best place to watch a launch would be from the left seat.

I think those seats are already spoken (at least with the STS). Maybe if I'm lucky one of my kids will be a CEV pilot/commander.
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Mir
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RE: Best Spot To Watch A Shuttle Launch?

Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:08 pm

Well, I'm off to Titusville or somewhere around there.

-Mir
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