keesje
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Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:55 am

I remember seeing the EAP prototype 20 years ago.



Eurofighters are now entering service across Europe.




- I think it has no spectacular radar capasity, no vectored array scanner
- I has no spectacular air to ground capasity yet
- It has no spectacular stealth capability
- It has no spectacular range
- It is more agile then an F16? maybe, not much. Then a thrustvectoring Russian? Likely not.
- Supercruise ? hardly, at what warload / range? Nothing spectacular.
- The total un-censored cost during the project´s 30 years will probably be spectacular.

A great fighter but nothing spectacular IMO.

Maybe the German/British/Italian airforces were so sick flying Tornado´s that have no chance against F15s, F16s and F18s that they focussed too much on agility. Now the world has changed. No defending the home country anymore.

You can probably find a zillion Eurofighter pilots, sellers, designers, politicians and proud patriots saying the Eurofighter is the greatest thing to ever fly.

Objectively looking at the specifications is ok, but nothing more. A best buy so to say, I wonder how sexy it will be in say 2020.



"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
angelsonefive
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:15 am

It looked good at Fairford air show but was on reheat the whole time of the display as were most of the fighters - ! how long would the fuel last at that rate of consumption?

It is good for jobs in the EU otherwise we buy off the shelf from the USA and export jobs -
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ebj1248650
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:34 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
- Supercruise ? hardly,

Even here in the United States, the Eurofighter Typhoon is highly regarded and is said to be superior to most every fighter we have with the exception of the F-22. So it's fair to say the Typhoon is something spectacular. At this early stage in its development, emphasis is on the air-to-air role. Work is already being done to fully develop its air-to-ground capabilities. I wouldn't write this bird off so quickly. I don't believe her full potential has been realized yet.
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
NoUFO
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacula

Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:43 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
I think it has no spectacular radar capasity, no vectored array scanner

I told you a couple of times already that CAPTOR is more capable than probably any other radar in the wilderness, including Rafale's. What good is a fancy technology that is still in it's infancy? That said, everyone knows CAPTOR is only an interims solution (just like Rafale's).

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
I has no spectacular air to ground capasity yet

Eurofighter can drop almost any bomb in the US or European portfolio.

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
It has no spectacular stealth capability

Stealth was not demanded.

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
It has no spectacular range

A longer range than originally demanded. An even longer range would mean a bigger aircraft, bigger RCS and more expensive to maintain.

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
It is more agile then an F16? maybe, not much. Then a thrustvectoring Russian? Likely not.

Typhoon is definitely more agile than the F-16. Even I who is not a professional can quite easily spot the difference, and thrust-vectoring will come.

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Supercruise ? hardly, at what warload / range? Nothing spectacular.

Supercruise was not demanded.

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
The total un-censored cost during the project´s 30 years will probably be spectacular.

Just like alomost any other fighter project.

What you have to understand, but so far have failed to, is that a fighter is always a compromise. You can have a lower RCS, but then the fighter will lack some maneuverability and vice versa; you can have a longer range, but then the bird gets bigger, heavier, has a bigger RCS and is more expensive to maintain. You can build your fighter out of modules and thus make it more maintenace friendly, but then the plane is again one third bigger with all it's implications. You can have a wing design ideally suited for air/air combat, but that would spoil it's A/G capabilities.

Typhoon was designed to scramble against Su-27 and Mig-29 and was later modified to a multi-role aircraft with longer range - without compromising A/A capabilities. It's still considered the second best air-superiority fighter only after the - much more expensive - F-22A that indeed is probably not truly a multirole fighter.*

Why do you want something "spectacular" by all means? Eurofighter will certainly do it's job - and do it well. What more do you want, you who is always willing to praise Rafale to the skies for it's weaker radar.

* Edit: Not that it was their intention to develop a multirole-fighter

[Edited 2006-08-23 01:45:09]
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checksixx
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:52 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 3):
* Edit: Not that it was their intention to develop a multirole-fighter

Wrong...dropping iron was always in the works for the Raptor.

-Check
 
PADSpot
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:45 pm

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 3):
Supercruise was not demanded.

Wrong. Supercruise was demanded and the EF is fully capable of it. It can go Mach 1.3 with 6 missiles and two drop tanks and Mach 1.5 with 6 missiles and w/o the drop tanks.

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
- It has no spectacular stealth capability

It has the best stealth capability of all aircraft that were never intended to have it. Although of similar size it only reflects about a quarter of the radar energy compared to a F-15.

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
It is more agile then an F16? maybe, not much. Then a thrust-vectoring Russian? Likely not.

Thrust-vectoring will be an option in later batches. Up to now it is deemed not necessary. The thrust-vectoring engine however is long in testing ...

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
- The total un-censored cost during the project´s 30 years will probably be spectacular.

Well, compared to the Raptor it is still rather cheap. If you want cheap airplanes go to Russia or China ...
 
manzoori
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:07 pm

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 4):
Wrong...dropping iron was always in the works for the Raptor.

You sure? I was under the impression it was purely an Air Dominance Fighter to begin with and only the ongoing budget overruns and congressional threats of cuts forced them to expand its envelope to include the A2G role... of course I could be wrong... it has been known!  Wink

Rez
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columba
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:12 pm

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 4):
Wrong...dropping iron was always in the works for the Raptor.



Quoting Manzoori (Reply 6):
You sure? I was under the impression it was purely an Air Dominance Fighter to begin with and only the ongoing budget overruns and congressional threats of cuts forced them to expand its envelope to include the A2G role... of course I could be wrong... it has been known! Wink

I beliebe Manzoori is right on this one.
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keesje
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:13 pm

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 3):
Stealth was not demanded.



Quoting NoUFO (Reply 3):
A longer range than originally demanded.



Quoting NoUFO (Reply 3):
thrust-vectoring will come.



Quoting NoUFO (Reply 3):
Supercruise was not demanded.



Quoting PADSpot (Reply 5):
It has the best stealth capability of all aircraft that were never intended to have it.



Quoting PADSpot (Reply 5):
Thrust-vectoring will be an option in later batches.

I'm not looking why the Eurofighter is lagging in these areas just noting it is.

I think it is dated at the moment it enters service. Airforces / governments / parlemements will be really sick if they are told to spend further billions for major mod's so soon after EIS.

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 5):
It can go Mach 1.3 with 6 missiles and two drop tanks

I'm no "give a source" guy, but with RH & tanks / missiles, without RH? ..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
MigFan
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:37 pm

Keesje,

What aircraft do you favor?

/M
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checksixx
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:00 pm

Quoting Manzoori (Reply 6):
You sure? I was under the impression it was purely an Air Dominance Fighter to begin with and only the ongoing budget overruns and congressional threats of cuts forced them to expand its envelope to include the A2G role... of course I could be wrong... it has been known!

Rez

When the threat of more cuts hit, they pushed heavily the A2G aspect of the jet...ie...when they first redesignated the jet "F/A-22" so as to push the multirole capabilities. Those capabilities had been planned for and already integrated into the jet. As a matter of fact, SDB's have already been fit tested in the Raptor.
 
deltadc9
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:54 pm

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 2):
Even here in the United States, the Eurofighter Typhoon is highly regarded and is said to be superior to most every fighter we have with the exception of the F-22.

The EF is probably about as good as any 4th gen fighter out there and better than many, but the F-22 and F-35 are 5th gen fighters. Whole different ballgame.

I am sure it will mature into something of a hybrid of a 4th and 5th gen fighter and make quite a name for itself, but assuming it can take out F-15s consistently is by no means certain.

Quoting Manzoori (Reply 6):
You sure? I was under the impression it was purely an Air Dominance Fighter to begin with and only the ongoing budget overruns and congressional threats of cuts forced them to expand its envelope to include the A2G role... of course I could be wrong... it has been known!

With the success of the Strike Eagle, the Strike Raptor was always a consideration in the design. I do believe the Air Force wanted all their F-22s to be Air Dominance though until the axe fell, IIRC. Now they must push both roles just to justify 180. Pretty sad really.

Only if the original 800 or so were allowed would the USAF actually use some of them as "Strike Raptors". With 180, there really are not enough to spare.
The F-15E will be around for a long time, and does those missions quite well anyway. The F-22 will end up filling in for the F-117 though.

Thats just how I see it.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
art
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:16 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 11):
Only if the original 800 or so were allowed would the USAF actually use some of them as "Strike Raptors". With 180, there really are not enough to spare.
The F-15E will be around for a long time, and does those missions quite well anyway. The F-22 will end up filling in for the F-117 though.

To me you make it sound as if the F-35 does not have a role to play. When it becomes available (OK, when is when?), it will the strike aicraft of preference, won't it?
 
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autothrust
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:17 am

Not again Keesje, its getting booring all this anti-Eurofighter Topics.

Quote:

EF-2000 v.s F-16C

The data of F-16C is from http://www.mirage-jet.com/COMPAR_1/compar_1.htm

Road length for Take-off / Landing / Sea-level
F-16C: 457m / 914m (2 WVRAAM)
EF-2K: 300m / 500m (4 BVRAAM + 2 WVRAAM) (world record)

Flight-envelope
F-16C:
36,000ft (10,973m) --> Maximum speed 1.90Mach (2 WVRAAM)
49,500ft (15,088m) --> Maximum speed 1.80Mach (2 WVRAAM)

EF-2K(2 WVRAAM + 4 BVRAAM):
30,000~55,000 ft --> Maximum speed 2.00 Mach
60,000ft (18,300m) -->Maximum speed 1.85 Mach

Acceleration (36,000ft, initial speed 0.9 mach, Maximum A/B)
F-16C: accelerating to 1.75 mach in 2min and 1.86 mach in 3 min (2 WVRAAM)
EF-2K: accelerating to 2.00 mach in 2min (4 BVRAAM + 2 WVRAAM)



Factors for BVR combat:

1. Detective range of Radar for RCS = 5m2 targets:
(http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/ ... G/PGSA.htm)
AN/APG-68: 80 km
AN/APG-80: 130km
Captor: 160~185 km (Tracking range )



2. The frontal RCS:
F-16C: 1.2 m2
EF-2K: 0.10~0.25m2 (exact data is classified)




Theoretically,
the EF-2000 could detect or even track F-16C 110~130 km away.
the F-16C Block50 could detect EF-2000 30~40 km away.
the F-16C Block60 could detect EF-2000 50~65 km away.



5. Flight-envelope

F-16C:
36,000ft (10,973m) --> Maximum speed 1.90Mach (2 WVRAAM)
49,500ft (15,088m) --> Maximum speed 1.80Mach (2 WVRAAM)
(2 WVRAAM + 4 BVRAAM) --> Always less than 1.60 Mach and the maximum speed for 5G maneuver is less than 1 mach.

EF-2K(2 WVRAAM + 4 BVRAAM):
30,000~55,000 ft --> Maximum speed 2.00 Mach
60,000ft (18,300m) -->Maximum speed 1.85 Mach
45,000ft (13,725m) --> 1.60 Mach plus 5G maneuver


-There is already Thrust Vectoring available developed by ITP and MTU.
-The Thypoon offers the best price/efficiency of all Planes in the World.
-No other Jet needs less runway and time to take off and is faster at 14,000 meter. (5 seconds from brake release and 50 to be at 14,000 meters)
- there is study by the UK's DERA comparing the Typhoon to other contemporary fighters. In it, the Typhoon was second only to the F-22A in combat performance.

Quote:

2004/05, magazine of AFM
An UK test pilot declared that the maximum Air-to-air tracking range of CAPTOR radar is significantly longer than the 100 miles / 161km.

2004/06, magazine of RAF
The same test pilot declared that with the help of Meteor AAM, the EF-2000 could attack the multiple aero-targets (up to 8 targets) as far as 200km away at the same time.

EADS:
During the test, the CAPTOR radar showed the capability of tracking up to 20 air targets (F-4 and Mig-29) simultaneously 160~185 km away and then automatically identifying and prioritising them.



Quote:


An AESA array may be used to CAPTOR radar after 2010~2012, which will increase the detection range / tracking range of CAPTOR 75% more at least.



From AFM "Singapore very impressed with the Typhoon" and Western Daily Press

".....................It is a very capable aircraft and better than the American F16 he champions. In a recent competition run by Singapore to find a replacement for its F16 fighters, Typhoon was up against the American F15E and the French Rafale. Typhoon won all three combat tests, including one in which a single Typhoon defeated three RSAF F16s, and reliably completed all planned flight tests. According to one observer, neither competitor aircraft could claim the same (Defence Analysis August 2004)."


http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk/
http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.net/E ... /tech.html

The F-18,F-16,F-15,Mig-29,Rafale, have no chance against the Eurofighter.
Still nothing spectacular?  Yeah sure
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:29 am

I think the Typhoon is an excellent fighter because the plane has far more modern features in terms of enhancing manueverability than the F-16 and F-18.

Indeed, much of the features of the Typhoon came out of the X-31 research program, especially in the way of coupling delta wings with a forward canard with a full fly-by-wire system so it could turn faster.
 
deltadc9
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:55 am

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 13):
The F-18,F-16,F-15,Mig-29,Rafale, have no chance against the Eurofighter.

No one can predict that at this point.

Quoting Art (Reply 12):
To me you make it sound as if the F-35 does not have a role to play. When it becomes available (OK, when is when?), it will the strike aicraft of preference, won't it?

I was making the point that as far as the strike role goes, even though the F-22 is capable, they will keep the F-15E so they can devote the F-22 to dominance.

The F-15E carries a lot more payload and can defend itself better than the F-16, but the F-16 does most of the ground attacks and missions in general, and the F-35 will start to take over in about 4-6 years.

With 1200 or more F-35s, they must do the bulk of the strikes as we have about 200 Strike Eagles and will have 180 F-22s anyway.
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autothrust
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:13 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 15):
No one can predict that at this point.

The RSAF and RAF and Luftwaffe can predict and confirm that.
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
art
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:12 am

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 13):
The F-18,F-16,F-15,Mig-29,Rafale, have no chance against the Eurofighter.

You did mention that the Eurofighter had "defeated" all opponents in the Singapore contest. You also mentioned the DERA simulation. If it is the one I am thinking of, neither F-22 not Typhoon had a 100% success rate against the notional MiG or Sukhoi (I forget which) opponent. I think the ratio was 9:1 in favour of F-22 and 4.5:1 in favour of Typhoon. All other western fighters in the simulation had worse results against the notional opponent.

Correction:

In the JOUST simulation, BVR results against an SU27 upgraded to SU35 were as follows:

F-22 10.1:1
Typhoon 4.5:1
Rafale 1:1
F-15C 0.8:1
F-16C 0.3:1

Source: http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk/Eurofighter/tech.html

[Edited 2006-08-23 20:34:18]

[Edited 2006-08-23 20:36:58]
 
deltadc9
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:53 am

Quoting Art (Reply 17):
In the JOUST simulation, BVR results against an SU27 upgraded to SU35 were as follows:



Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 16):
The RSAF and RAF and Luftwaffe can predict and confirm that.

You said 'no chance' against those planes. That is just not true, it cant be.

Remember how guys like you made asses out of themselves over the Sea Harrier before the Falklands War? How did that work out?

Those predictions are just that, predictions with a certain percentage of certainty below 100%.

You cannot predict what will happen with great certainty. Tactics, tactical support, and training all throw any certainty out the window.

An F-15 will be able to shoot down a F-22 at some point during exercises, just not yet. Once that happens, dont expect any details.

No chance is an absolute that should have set off an alarm when you typed it.
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keesje
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:43 am

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 13):
The F-18,F-16,F-15,Mig-29,Rafale, have no chance against the Eurofighter.
Still nothing spectacular?

I think we have to take a good look at these far from independent sources. No of them ever said the Tornado´s were flying meatballs in dogfights..

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 13):
Theoretically,
the EF-2000 could detect or even track F-16C 110~130 km away.
the F-16C Block50 could detect EF-2000 30~40 km away.
the F-16C Block60 could detect EF-2000 50~65 km away.

+

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 13):
2004/06, magazine of RAF
The same test pilot declared that with the help of Meteor AAM, the EF-2000 could attack the multiple aero-targets (up to 8 targets) as far as 200km away at the same time.

At least one of the sources is wrong.

Quoting Art (Reply 17):
In the JOUST si
mulation, BVR results against an SU27 upgraded to SU35 were as follows:

F-22 10.1:1
Typhoon 4.5:1
Rafale 1:1
F-15C 0.8:1

+

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 13):
The F-18,F-16,F-15,Mig-29,Rafale, have no chance against the Eurofighter.

Again at least one of them is wrong.

Apart from that some time after the study F15 went up against Flankers & the outcome was "surprising"..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
deltadc9
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:17 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 19):
Apart from that some time after the study F15 went up against Flankers & the outcome was "surprising"..

What is more suprising is the actual details of that exercise. Lets just say take the results with a grain of salt, along with any published numbers in these posts.

We all should know that the real numbers are classified, and anything we do have access to is selective.
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keesje
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:28 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 20):
We all should know that the real numbers are classified, and anything we do have access to is selective.

 checkmark 
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NoUFO
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:56 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 5):
Wrong. Supercruise was demanded

I clearly remember an EADS test pilot saying supercruise was something their clients get for free and without ordering it.

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 4):
Wrong...dropping iron was always in the works for the Raptor.

Even if, dropping some iron as you called it does not make the F-22a a multirole fighter. I believe Raptor can only carry some GPS guided JDAM bombs.
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art
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:26 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 18):
You said 'no chance' against those planes. That is just not true, it cant be.

Agreed. They would all have a chance against Typhoon. The question is how good a chance.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 18):
Those predictions are just that, predictions with a certain percentage of certainty below 100%.

You cannot predict what will happen with great certainty. Tactics, tactical support, and training all throw any certainty out the window.

Agreed. Nevertheless a simulated Typoon success rate of 4.5:1 against SU35 is so dramatically better than the F-16C 0.3:1 score that it is reasonable to think that Typhoon outclasses F-16C by a big, big margin. And F-15, F-18 and Rafale by a significant margin.
 
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autothrust
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:47 am

Quoting Art (Reply 17):
F-22 10.1:1
Typhoon 4.5:1
Rafale 1:1
F-15C 0.8:1
F-16C 0.3:1

Interesting data Art thanks for sharing.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 18):
hose predictions are just that, predictions with a certain percentage of certainty below 100%.

You cannot predict what will happen with great certainty. Tactics, tactical support, and training all throw any certainty out the window.

An F-15 will be able to shoot down a F-22 at some point during exercises, just not yet. Once that happens, dont expect any details.

I agree the words wasnt wisely choosen, but with same arguing you could say the same about the F-35, F-22, B-2, F-117 at certanly tactics and positions every plane can be shooted down there isnt a perfect jet, so where's the point.

The Typhoon has simulatad shoot down 2 F-15C (couldnt even lock the EF) and 3 F-16E(at the same time attacking) & Mig-29, without they could shoot. The EF also won all three RSAF combat tests . If that doesnt shows clearly air superiority....
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
deltadc9
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:22 pm

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 24):
The Typhoon has simulatad shoot down 2 F-15C (couldnt even lock the EF) and 3 F-16E(at the same time attacking) & Mig-29, without they could shoot. The EF also won all three RSAF combat tests . If that doesnt shows clearly air superiority....



Quoting Art (Reply 23):
Agreed. Nevertheless a simulated Typoon success rate of 4.5:1 against SU35 is so dramatically better than the F-16C 0.3:1 score that it is reasonable to think that Typhoon outclasses F-16C by a big, big margin. And F-15, F-18 and Rafale by a significant margin.

Like I said above, the Typhoon, while clearly not a 5th gen fighter, and is looking to be better than most if not all 4th gen fighters. Seeing that the planes it is being compared to are late 60's early 70's designs, I would hope so.

That is why I called it a hybrid, it is probably in a class all its own, and those numbers seem to bear that out. It is performing somewhere in between the F-22 and the rest. How do you say 4.5th gen?

I for one think that is great, because we depend on NATO forces being able to integrate into our system, and it appears the Typhoon will be able to perform to a level we have not seen from our allies ever.

It also solves the problem of the F-22 not being exportable, providing a superior plane to anything else to our allies to multiply our forces when a common threat arises.

I also think the F-35 will probably wind up in between the F-22 and Typhoon performance wise, probably closer to the Typhoon.

Just my opinion anyway.

Questions,

When making reference to the F-18, is that a SuperHornet or just a Hornet?

F-15C or E? Newer or older model?

It does make a difference.

[Edited 2006-08-24 15:24:17]
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
aislepathlight
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:26 pm

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 11):
The EF is probably about as good as any 4th gen fighter out there and better than many, but the F-22 and F-35 are 5th gen fighters. Whole different ballgame.

I am sure it will mature into something of a hybrid of a 4th and 5th gen fighter and make quite a name for itself, but assuming it can take out F-15s consistently is by no means certain.

The thing is is that the US really skipped 4th gen fighters, and went strait on to 5th gen fighters, in the F-22 and F-35. But then again, late model F15s or F14Ds would be just as good as many 4th gen fighters. I like a late model F15 (either Japanese or S. Korea) over a Typhoon

Quote:

To me you make it sound as if the F-35 does not have a role to play. When it becomes available (OK, when is when?), it will the strike aicraft of preference, won't it?

They fit nicely in to the role of the old F117s, as inital stealth strike aircraft, and they will be more capable as fighter than F117s too. I can see USAF will use F22s to gain airsuperioty, the F35s wreak SAMs and Radar instillation's. Then you can turn loose your regular old FA18s, F16s, or anything else you desire.

Just a note for everyone, there is a FA18 program on the military channel if anyone gets that, at 22.00 EST.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 15):
Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 13):
The F-18,F-16,F-15,Mig-29,Rafale, have no chance against the Eurofighter.

No one can predict that at this point.

I think that you are sorely miss led here, autothrust, as I am sure that a bunch of the tricked out Japanese or South Korean F15s are much more capable than a Eurofighter. Rafales and Eurofighters, in my opinion, are evenly matched. The French have more experience with Delta wings than anyone else, and have made some good planes. I think that their ability to drop Exocets and be potent land based fighters makes them equal with a Typhoon.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 22):

Even if, dropping some iron as you called it does not make the F-22a a multirole fighter. I believe Raptor can only carry some GPS guided JDAM bombs.

But still, you have an invisible platform, and that does really help. If they can make the F35s have a bombing ability, then the USAFs problems are solved

Quoting Art (Reply 23):

Agreed. They would all have a chance against Typhoon. The question is how good a chance.

Better than you would think. I think our USN F18s with their load of AMRAAMS with the AWACS would be able to take out a fair share of Typhoons
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deltadc9
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:52 am

Quoting AislepathLight (Reply 26):
The thing is is that the US really skipped 4th gen fighters

Pretty much, but me personally, I would definitely call the SuperHornet a 4th gen fighter, and agree that the and F-14D, F-15E and later versions as well as any possible F-16NG would probably qualify as 4th gen.

Quoting AislepathLight (Reply 26):
If they can make the F35s have a bombing ability, then the USAFs problems are solved

The F-35 is a strike fighter just like the F-16. It has all weather attack capability as its primary mission.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 22):
Even if, dropping some iron as you called it does not make the F-22a a multirole fighter. I believe Raptor can only carry some GPS guided JDAM bombs.

The F-22 is a multi role fighter, its real name is F/A-22 for a reason. Just like the F-18, you push a button and it switches roles. The F-22 like the F-35, and most fighters before it have primary and secondary roles. The F-22 primary role is air dominance, the F-35s primary role is attack. Both can do the other role just like a Strike Eagle retained the F-15C capabilities and could fight and attack.

This is the problem with the F-117, it is an attack bomber and cannot really put up much of a fight. The F-22 is not a single role plane like that at all.

The F-22 can carry a very large payload, the limitations you are referring to are internal bay related, hard points are available for wing mounted munitions just like the Strike Eagle.
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autothrust
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:58 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 25):
That is why I called it a hybrid, it is probably in a class all its own, and those numbers seem to bear that out. It is performing somewhere in between the F-22 and the rest. How do you say 4.5th gen?

Very True, with that i fully agree with you.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 25):
I also think the F-35 will probably wind up in between the F-22 and Typhoon performance wise, probably closer to the Typhoon.

Mostly accurate but the F-35 and Typhoon aren't really comparable at all, but they work good together and are rather complementary. As Interceptor may the EF will be better and as Air/Ground attack the F-35 shows his quality. Both have STOL capability's and was designed for different Mission Profiles.
Thats why i think buying the Typhoon and F-35 is a smart move by RAF and Italian Airforce.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 25):
When making reference to the F-18, is that a SuperHornet or just a Hornet?

F-15C or E? Newer or older model?

AFAIK it was against a F-15C and a Hornet. There are almost no comparative data to the Super Hornet.
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Pyrex
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:49 am

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 2):
At this early stage in its development

20 years into its development is early?

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 16):
The RSAF and RAF and Luftwaffe can predict and confirm that.

None of those choices was made on technical grounds...
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PADSpot
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Fri Aug 25, 2006 4:33 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 19):


Quoting AutoThrust, reply=13:

2004/06, magazine of RAF
The same test pilot declared that with the help of Meteor AAM, the EF-2000 could attack the multiple aero-targets (up to 8 targets) as far as 200km away at the same time.

At least one of the sources is wrong.

Probably the last one is exaggerated. Meteor will have an effective range of at least 100km (depending on shooter and target speed, altitude and so on) while the EF can detect an F-16 from more than 200km but will need AWACS support to identify it at that range. From 120-160km on the EF will be able to identify it on its own ... but we should not forget that Meteor will not be available before 2010 and until then the EF will not able to use its longer range radar to its advantage.


Concerning the overwhelming test and simulation results, It think part of the EF's great performance is due to the lack of experience contenders had in fighting the EF. The opponent's systems had no real data of the EF's ECM systems and so on ...
 
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:22 pm

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 13):
The F-18,F-16,F-15,Mig-29,Rafale, have no chance against the Eurofighter.
Still nothing spectacular?

Sure.
The British have made basically a video game in the 90's showing the EF shooting down everything but the F22, so we have the evidence that it's better. Yeah !
 
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autothrust
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:28 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 30):
From 120-160km on the EF will be able to identify it on its own ... but we should not forget that Meteor will not be available before 2010 and until then the EF will not able to use its longer range radar to its advantage.

True but we shouldnt forget at this time the F-35 will enter into service and the Typhoon tranche III will receive new Captor AESA Radar and Thrust Vectoring.
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
art
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:54 pm

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 32):
True but we shouldnt forget at this time the F-35 will enter into service and the Typhoon tranche III will receive new Captor AESA Radar and Thrust Vectoring.

AESA radar looks very likely - the manufacturers have enough confidence in this being ordered to be spending their own money on development. I don't think a decision has been taken to implement thrust vectoring on the Typhoon.
 
PADSpot
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:37 pm

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 32):

True but we shouldnt forget at this time the F-35 will enter into service and the Typhoon tranche III will receive new Captor AESA Radar and Thrust Vectoring

Both are options, which are not confirmed parts of tranche 3.

Luftwaffe for instance will not order thrust-vectoring. I don't know about the radar, I guess the CAPTOR will just receive a software update to improve Air to Ground performance. And maybe somebody comes with the clever idea to mount the PIRATE IRST-sensor on the underside so that it can also be effectively used for air to ground missions ...
 
AGM100
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:31 am

All the technical stuff aside , and no offence intended ... But it really looks like it was designed in 60/70's. It looks cool , but its nothing new , especially the intakes. I am sure the systems can be updated changed added to or whatever to compete with anything. But what will the aircraft be like 25 years from now ?

Not like the F-15 , Jag , F-4 or Tornado I'm afraid.

Just my opinion,
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Tom12
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:32 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 35):
All the technical stuff aside , and no offence intended ... But it really looks like it was designed in 60/70's. It looks cool , but its nothing new , especially the intakes. I am sure the systems can be updated changed added to or whatever to compete with anything. But what will the aircraft be like 25 years from now ?

Probably won't be but if we go by what the RAF usually do it will probabl be updated around then. The GR.4's were GR.1's before there major update (I think) and i would imagine they will do the same with the Eurofighter.

Thanks, Tom
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angelsonefive
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:26 am

I repeat again my sentiments that we keep a pool of expertise within GB and Europe by building such planes here - I see you all quoting stats about this that and the other but when alls said and done provided the thing works and does a reasonable job and apparantly it aint half bad - then 'we should stop looking at our shoes and be proud its made in EU and selling to EU airforces' - and Saudi as well - I understand the Americans are dragging their heels over releasing info on the F35 already - we (GB) who gave them the Harrier Av8B in the first place -
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Lumberton
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacula

Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:32 am

Quoting Angelsonefive (Reply 37):
- I understand the Americans are dragging their heels over releasing info on the F35 already - we (GB) who gave them the Harrier Av8B in the first place -

IIRC, that was resolved.
Bush, Blair Agree On F-35 Technology Transfer (by Lumberton May 27 2006 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)
If this agreement has been overtaken by other events, please post. Otherwise, thanks for the Harrier.  Wink

BTW, how does one get to be a "retired" captain in the 46-55 age category? Nice if you can do it!

[Edited 2006-08-26 00:34:38]
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
GDB
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:33 pm

Typhoon is designed to be significantly more capable than US 'Teen Series' fighters (and Mirage 2000), it should be, with a decade later design.

The fact is, ALL modern military aircraft take a long time to get to service, all that sophistication comes at a price.
True of F-22, Rafale, Typhoon, even Gripen did too.
We can debate how post Cold War spending contributed to this, Typhoon also effectively lost two years in the early 90's due to political issues.

And what did Germany do then, look around for a cheaper alternative whilst trying to retain the capabilities Eurofighter offered, coming back to the aircraft in the end.
That is telling.

Typhoon has Tranches for upgrades, the F-22 people call them Spirals-though they are more numerous and gradual.

The thread starter seems to think he knows a lot more than the air staffs of 6 airforces, than the resources of some major companies.

The old arguments are so....well old.
'It cannot do air to ground' Yes it can, it will, through gradual upgrades-the RAF looking for an early basic capability.
I remember an interview with a senior RAF staffer from 1987 who made it clear that the then European Fighter Aircraft will be expected to replace strike/attack aircraft as well as straight fighters/interceptors.

'It's not stealthy' Not designed to be, however attention was on reducing RCS from the frontal aspect, I would suggest an 80% composite airframe with Radar Absorbant material over areas like leading edges will have a significantly lower RCS than previous generations.

'It cannot do thrust vectoring' Not yet.

'No electrically scanned radar' Ditto.

'It cannot supercriuse' Wrong, it has demonstrated this.

'It's too expensive' Compared to what? Gripen is cheaper, it's a very fine aircraft, but has neither the range, payload or performance required.

'We don't need it' When? Now? 10, 20, 30 years in the future? No one has a crystal ball.

The F-35 has a place in the UK inventory as a Harrier replacement.
Same with Italy, though they may in time go for some F-35C's too, possibly the UK as well as a longer term partial Tornado GR.4 replacement.
 
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autothrust
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:10 pm

Quoting Angelsonefive (Reply 37):
we keep a pool of expertise within GB and Europe by building such planes here - I see you all quoting stats about this that and the other but when alls said and done provided the thing works and does a reasonable job and apparantly it aint half bad - then 'we should stop looking at our shoes and be proud its made in EU and selling to EU airforces' - and Saudi as well

Well saîd. Over 2000 high qualified people got a job through the Typhoon Program.

Quoting GDB (Reply 39):
'It cannot do thrust vectoring' Not yet.

As i said there is already Thrust Vectoring but the Typhoon being so agilely through delta design and canarads, the improvement would be minimal.
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Eurofighter: Great Fighter. Nothing Spectacular.

Sat Aug 26, 2006 8:57 pm

Quoting AislepathLight (Reply 26):
Better than you would think. I think our USN F18s with their load of AMRAAMS with the AWACS would be able to take out a fair share of Typhoons

As would German F-4 Phantoms with AWACS help. But if the Eurofighter is using the same AWACS resources, this victory is getting doubtful again.

With superior intelligence, even a lower developed plane can achieve a lot. But when it is a fight against equal opponents, the actual capabilities of the aircraft get more important, and there, the Eurofighter is better.

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