DfwRevolution
Topic Author
Posts: 8538
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

CEV Contractor To Be Announced 8/31

Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:50 pm

According to SpaceRef.com, NASA will announce the prime contractor for the Orion Crew Exploration Vehicle on Thursday, August 31.

NASA Exploration Systems' managers will host a press conference at 4 p.m. EDT Thursday, Aug. 31, to announce the prime contractor to design, develop, and build Orion, America's next human spacecraft.

The press conference will be in the NASA headquarters auditorium, 300 E Street S.W., Washington. It will air live on the Web and on NASA TV. Reporters may ask questions from participating NASA locations. Reporters should coordinate with local agency centers by 4 p.m. EDT Wednesday, Aug. 30 for access information.


The two competing bids are from:

- Northrop Grumman/Boeing
- Lockheed Martin

A pleathora of secondary contractors are associated with both teams, including EADS, the United Space Alliance, Honeywell, Orbital Sciences, etc.

Any thoughts?
 
deltadc9
Posts: 2787
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:00 pm

RE: CEV Contractor To Be Announced 8/31

Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:04 am

I had NO IDEA it was this soon. Thanks for the heads up.

I was not born when Apollo/Mercury/Gemini was announced, I was a little boy when the Shuttle was announced(Apollo cancellation and orbit only did not make this a big thrill), and I thought I was at this point again when Al Gore unveiled the VentureStar, only to be sorely disappointed.

I just hope they dont do a "space station" and keep making cuts until it doesn't serve its original purpose, or cant.

Now that things have changed so much with the design, is there a link that shows what the real configuration is to be, including the Mars piece of the puzzle? I have not come across one yet.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
n844aa
Posts: 1266
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:38 am

RE: CEV Contractor To Be Announced 8/31

Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:44 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Thread starter):
The two competing bids are from:

- Northrop Grumman/Boeing
- Lockheed Martin

Y'know, it's like they took every major contractor from the space race, mixed them up in a pot, and distilled them down into these two companies. It would be interesting to see some kind of graphical representation of each subcontractor on, say, Apollo, and plot their corporate lineages against time, reflecting the acquisitions and mergers that took place over the years.
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
deltadc9
Posts: 2787
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:00 pm

RE: CEV Contractor To Be Announced 8/31

Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:47 am

Quoting N844AA (Reply 2):
It would be interesting to see some kind of graphical representation of each subcontractor on, say, Apollo, and plot their corporate lineages against time, reflecting the acquisitions and mergers that took place over the years.

This might be close enough. Some like Thiokol wont be ther because this is for fixed wing military, but it is still sort of relevant.

Please note, the Northrup/Grumman aquisition by LockMart never happend.

American Aircraft Companies Family Tree


[Edited 2006-08-28 22:49:29]
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
n844aa
Posts: 1266
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:38 am

RE: CEV Contractor To Be Announced 8/31

Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:04 am

That's exactly what I had in mind; great find. If I were any good at design, I'd come up with a diagram like that, except with the Saturn V on the Y-axis, broken down into components and listing the prime contractor for each, and then tracing the acquisitions to follow.

By the way, what put an end to the LM-Northrop merger? Antitrust concerns?
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
DfwRevolution
Topic Author
Posts: 8538
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: CEV Contractor To Be Announced 8/31

Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:07 am

Quoting N844AA (Reply 2):

Y'know, it's like they took every major contractor from the space race, mixed them up in a pot, and distilled them down into these two companies

There is a lot of truth to that.

In some ways, I am deeply disappointed that many decisions about the CEV and EAS program are being made to satisfy the corperate (and thus political) interests of the major Shuttle contractors.

A new program should be a chance to design new hardware with a clean sheet. Certain baggage is better left behind. I'm not suggesting re-inventing the wheel at every opportunity, but scientific goals, budget guidelines, and spacecraft capabilities are taking a back seat to corperate and political interest.

For example, using a Thikol-based SRB to launch the CEV rather than the EELV developed by the DoD. For example, retaining Apollo configurations versus potentially more practical solutions like the T/Space CXV. I think that is wrong, and places a great burden on the space community.

Oh well. I just hope something flies!
 
DfwRevolution
Topic Author
Posts: 8538
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: CEV Contractor To Be Announced 8/31

Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:17 am

Quoting N844AA (Reply 4):
I'd come up with a diagram like that, except with the Saturn V on the Y-axis, broken down into components and listing the prime contractor for each, and then tracing the acquisitions to follow.

Well, without a diagram, it went something like this:

------

Saturn IC first stage - the Boeing Company

Saturn II second stage - North American Aviation Company (eventually by Boeing in the Rockwell merger)

Saturn IVB third stage - Douglas Aircraft Company (eventually aquired by Boeing in the MD merger)

Apollo CM/SM - North American Aviation Company (eventually aquired by Boeing)

Apollo LM - Grumman Aircraft Company (eventually merged into Northrop Grumman)

------

So as you can see, the vast majority of Apollo and Saturn heritage eventually wound-up at the Boeing Company.

Now keep in mind that NASA has already announced the new heavy lift vehicle (Ares V) and there is little Saturn legacy involved. Boeing has also divulged of their Rocketdyne unit that was responsible for the Shuttle SSME and Delta-IV RS68 that will be used on the Ares V. The majority of propulsion technology is now handled by Lockheed (Shuttle ET), Thikol (Shuttle SRB), and Pratt (SSME, RS68).

I believe Pratt is responsible for the J2X as well?
 
Areopagus
Posts: 1327
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 12:31 pm

RE: CEV Contractor To Be Announced 8/31

Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:12 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 5):
In some ways, I am deeply disappointed that many decisions about the CEV and EAS program are being made to satisfy the corperate (and thus political) interests of the major Shuttle contractors.

A new program should be a chance to design new hardware with a clean sheet. Certain baggage is better left behind. I'm not suggesting re-inventing the wheel at every opportunity, but scientific goals, budget guidelines, and spacecraft capabilities are taking a back seat to corperate and political interest.

For example, using a Thikol-based SRB to launch the CEV rather than the EELV developed by the DoD. For example, retaining Apollo configurations versus potentially more practical solutions like the T/Space CXV. I think that is wrong, and places a great burden on the space community.

They did consider EELVs, if you can believe the final architecture report (section 6):
After thorough analysis of multiple Evolved Expendable Launch Vehicle- (EELV-) and Shuttle-derived options for crew and cargo transportation, Shuttle-derived options were found to have significant advantages with respect to cost, schedule, safety, and reliability. Overall, the Shuttle-derived option was found to be the most affordable by leveraging proven vehicle and infrastructure elements and using those common elements in the heavy-lift CaLV as well as the CLV.

However, I don't know that they seriously considered alternative CEV configurations, such as Soyuz modularity or L1 rendezvous. That's what bothers me.
 
Thorny
Posts: 1508
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:44 am

RE: CEV Contractor To Be Announced 8/31

Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:34 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 1):
Now that things have changed so much with the design, is there a link that shows what the real configuration is to be, including the Mars piece of the puzzle? I have not come across one yet.

That information is still proprietary to NG-Boeing and LockMart, so no, it's not out there. Even after the winner is named, the information will still be preliminary... expect the design of Orion to change once detailed work begins on it (i.e., YF-22 to F-22A.) But we should have a good idea of Orion's layout this weekend.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 6):

So as you can see, the vast majority of Apollo and Saturn heritage eventually wound-up at the Boeing Company.

True, but a moot point now, more or less. You are very unlikely to find anyone at Boeing who had anything to do with Saturn V or Apollo. Boeing had to reinvent a large launcher development team when it competed for EELV, and they lost that competition (Delta IV came to Boeing with the McDonell-Douglas merger.) Boeing's major claims to fame in space/rocketry that were still going concerns in the 80s/90s were Minuteman and IUS... solid propellant technology having nothing to do with Saturn V. Even their current satellite business is not Boeing heritage, its the former Hughes Satellite Systems acquired from United Technologies a few years ago.

Quoting Areopagus (Reply 7):
They did consider EELVs, if you can believe the final architecture report (section 6):

Yep, but nearly all of those assumptions are now invalid, yet NASA stubbornly refused to reconsider EELV. Still, there's nothing set in stone yet... Congress could well force them to switch to EELV, especially if the rumored collapse of the Ares 1 project is true.

Quoting Areopagus (Reply 7):
However, I don't know that they seriously considered alternative CEV configurations, such as Soyuz modularity or L1 rendezvous. That's what bothers me.

They focused on short and cheap development, so they reused the well-understood Apollo shape (so did ESA with its ARD program) and a relatively simple mission profile (no L1 complications.)
 
DfwRevolution
Topic Author
Posts: 8538
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: CEV Contractor To Be Announced 8/31

Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:39 am

Well the big day is tomorrow. Anyone want to share their opinions as to who may win? Possibility that NASA may delay until later?
 
Thorny
Posts: 1508
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:44 am

RE: CEV Contractor To Be Announced 8/31

Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:53 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 9):
Well the big day is tomorrow. Anyone want to share their opinions as to who may win?

Northop-Grumman/Boeing.

Lockheed-Martin will get either Ares 1 Stage 2, or (if NASA has any common sense left) Atlas 5 contracts to launch Orion.
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 10997
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: CEV Contractor To Be Announced 8/31

Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:36 pm

Quoting Thorny (Reply 8):
Even their current satellite business is not Boeing heritage, its the former Hughes Satellite Systems acquired from United Technologies a few years ago.

I thought the entire SeaLaunch package was a Boeing idea and product, (they just didn't build the two ships).
 
Thorny
Posts: 1508
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:44 am

RE: CEV Contractor To Be Announced 8/31

Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:29 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):

I thought the entire SeaLaunch package was a Boeing idea and product, (they just didn't build the two ships).

No, the rocket is a Zenit 3, which began life as the strap-on boosters for Russia's Energia launch vehicle. Boeing bankrolled and markets the vehicle, but they had little to do with the engineering.
 
Thorny
Posts: 1508
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:44 am

RE: CEV Contractor To Be Announced 8/31

Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:13 am

 
RichardPrice
Posts: 4474
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:12 am

RE: CEV Contractor To Be Announced 8/31

Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:14 am

The announcement has been made, and the decision is:

Lockheed.

From the announcement -


Objectives:
Go to Moon, space stations.
3 variants: Space station transit vehicle, cargo vehicle and lunar transit vehicle.


Background:
First manned craft to be developed in 30 years by NASA.
Shuttle to be retired in 2010, worlds first reusable space craft.
The second stage of Aries I will definitely be J2 in origin.
CEV will be able to be placed into polar orbit around the moon.
CEV will be unmanned while the lander is on the moons surface.
Not decided if landing will be mostly on water or land.

CEV is intended to stop the current thinking that space is a once in a while destination.
 
NYC777
Posts: 5065
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:00 am

RE: CEV Contractor To Be Announced 8/31

Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:39 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 14):
CEV is intended to stop the current thinking that space is a once in a while destination.

Unfortunately that's what they said about the space shuttle too though I have higher hopes for Orion. It should be an easier vehicle to launch into space w/o many of the issues that troubled the shuttle.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
n844aa
Posts: 1266
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:38 am

RE: CEV Contractor To Be Announced 8/31

Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:48 am

What's the expected EIS?

Whatever it is, it's not going to make it in time  Sad
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
RichardPrice
Posts: 4474
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:12 am

RE: CEV Contractor To Be Announced 8/31

Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:52 am

Quoting N844AA (Reply 16):
What's the expected EIS?

Nothing firm yet, but 2014 was mentioned as unfirm in the briefing.
 
n844aa
Posts: 1266
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:38 am

RE: CEV Contractor To Be Announced 8/31

Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:56 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 17):
Nothing firm yet, but 2014 was mentioned as unfirm in the briefing.

Forgive my ignorance, but what is the United States supposed to do about manned spaceflight between 2010-2014? Is the U.S. going to be leasing seats on Soyuz, or will we be taking a break?
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
NYC777
Posts: 5065
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:00 am

RE: CEV Contractor To Be Announced 8/31

Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:59 am

Quoting N844AA (Reply 18):
Forgive my ignorance, but what is the United States supposed to do about manned spaceflight between 2010-2014? Is the U.S. going to be leasing seats on Soyuz, or will we be taking a break?

You got it. American's will be going on the Soyuz. If they can develop the Orion sooner then NASA is not exposed to that risk any longer than necessary.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
Thorny
Posts: 1508
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:44 am

RE: CEV Contractor To Be Announced 8/31

Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:33 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 19):
You got it. American's will be going on the Soyuz.

The US Congress only waived the Iran Nonproliferation Act for NASA through 2012, so 2012-2014 will either need another waiver or we hope SpaceX or Rocketplane-Kistler come through with their spacecraft. I think there is zero chance of Orion flying before 2014.
 
474218
Posts: 4510
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:27 pm

RE: CEV Contractor To Be Announced 8/31

Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:34 am

Lockheed Martin teamed with Honeywell and Orbital Science has won the NASA contract to build the Orion.
 
RichardPrice
Posts: 4474
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:12 am

RE: CEV Contractor To Be Announced 8/31

Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:36 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 21):
Lockheed Martin teamed with Honeywell and Orbital Science has won the NASA contract to build the Orion.

Interesting how EADS SPACE has been dropped from all announcements.
 
Thorny
Posts: 1508
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:44 am

RE: CEV Contractor To Be Announced 8/31

Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:52 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 22):
Interesting how EADS SPACE has been dropped from all announcements.

As were a dozen other subcontractors.
 
RichardPrice
Posts: 4474
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:12 am

RE: CEV Contractor To Be Announced 8/31

Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:56 am

Quoting Thorny (Reply 23):
As were a dozen other subcontractors.

EADS SPACE was a primary partner during the selection phase of the competition, on equal parlance with Boeings connection to Northrop.
 
Thorny
Posts: 1508
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:44 am

RE: CEV Contractor To Be Announced 8/31

Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:12 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 24):
EADS SPACE was a primary partner during the selection phase of the competition, on equal parlance with Boeings connection to Northrop.

No, they were second-tier. They are/were a subcontractor offering services to both LockMart and Northrop-Grumman/Boeing. They were on the same level as Orbital Sciences with Lockheed. You haven't heard much about Orbital today, either. I think it is fair to say EADS will have a substantial role in Orion, in any case.
 
n844aa
Posts: 1266
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:38 am

RE: CEV Contractor To Be Announced 8/31

Fri Sep 01, 2006 2:08 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 19):
You got it. American's will be going on the Soyuz. If they can develop the Orion sooner then NASA is not exposed to that risk any longer than necessary.

Which sort of risk are you referring to? That we won't be able to use Soyuz for some period of time, either due to legal restrictions or Russian production problems, or the danger posed by the Soyuz launch vehicle?
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
deltadc9
Posts: 2787
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:00 pm

RE: CEV Contractor To Be Announced 8/31

Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:56 pm

Did anyone catch the fact that Boeing is now number 3 military contracter in the anouncments? last I saw they were still number 2.

Also, why is Mars not being talked about much?
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
RichardPrice
Posts: 4474
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:12 am

RE: CEV Contractor To Be Announced 8/31

Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:44 pm

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 27):

Also, why is Mars not being talked about much?

Because its a future thing, not even considered past marketing atm.
 
GDB
Posts: 12652
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: CEV Contractor To Be Announced 8/31

Sat Sep 02, 2006 10:01 am

The US did no manned spaceflight between Apollo-Soyuz in July 1975 and STS-1 in April 1981.
They apparently, could maybe have rigged a Saturn 1/Apollo CSM mission, with remaining hardware, if some urgent reason came up.
But it didn't, not even the prospect of Skylab's re-entry well before any Shuttle flight.
Though that was not clear to NASA prior to summer 1978.

Then of course there were the darker reasons for periods of no manned flight, after Challenger, after Columbia.
After Apollo 1 too. That lasted 21 months.

So in this context, 2010 to 2014 is not so new or so bad, as a potential hiatus.
Though in the past, there was no space station to support except after Columbia.

Maybe, though I don't see it as likely in the timescale, if Klipper was up and running by then....
Shame, it would have eased the pressure some on ISS support.

Still, Orion should be worth waiting for.
It was said for a long time, that Shuttle was a return to how the US would have gone into space had the Mercury, then the Apollo programme not happened.
If not vertically and rocket launched, then some kind of spaceplane.

What we now know, is that for space exploration, with no commercial potentials involved, the opposite was true.
Though to be fair, that the winged vehicle was to be the huge, complex Shuttle had a lot to do with this, rather than something smaller and more practical/cheaper.

I see CEV, in this config, as a return to form, not a retrograde step, at least for the forseeable future.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: acontador and 11 guests