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Buyantukhaa
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Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Thu Sep 07, 2006 5:08 am

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=17387

A double-finned F5! Interesting... I just saw it on Portuguese TV as well...



Iran on Wednesday said it has developed a new warplane named "Thunder," which it described as similar to the American F-18 fighter jet.

The fighter jet is "similar to the F-18 fighter jet, but it is more capable and has been manufactured domestically," the commander of the Iranian army General Attollah Salehi was quoted as saying by the state news agency IRNA.

Iranian state television reported that the jet "is able to fire rockets and also to drop bombs and is equipped with an advanced radar system.

"The fighter jet Saegheh (Thunder), after successful military operations and accurately firing air-to-surface rockets in the Zolfaghar Blow maneuvers, came into the service of the Iranian air force today," the report said.

The air force, army and navy have been showing off their capabilities and new hardware for the last month in the Zolfaghar Blow war games, which come amid mounting international concern over Tehran's nuclear programme.

The report added "the plane, which has flown dozens of experimental flights during the last year, joined the air force with full fighting capacity."

Salehi told IRNA the jet was "designed, remodeled, optimized and made more capable by our engineers," and added that "no country has aided us in its production."
[...]


http://www.payvand.com/news/06/sep/1068.html



The reports say the remodeled plane, called the Thunderbolt (Saequeh, in Persian) was redesigned and upgraded using only Iranian expertise and equipment. The jet carries a locally built missile with the same name.

Iran's army chief, Ataollah Salehi, is quoted as saying the new fighter carried out a mock bombing mission Wednesday, in northwestern Iran. He added that Iran received no outside help for the project.


[Edited 2006-09-06 22:10:42]
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ptrjong
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Thu Sep 07, 2006 5:46 am

Interesting... Any thoughts about the benefits of twin tails for the F-5, since even the F-20 Tigershark didn't have them?

Also, are there any indications Iran is building, or going to build, new F-5s/Saequehs?

Peter
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NoUFO
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:37 am

Quoting Ftrguy (Reply 2):
ROTFL

Don't be so condescending.  Wink
Look, with three hardpoints, proven engines and a back view that keeps distracting details off from the pilot's view, the F-5 YF-17 Saegheh has to be superior.

Here's a video:

http://www.iribnews.ir/media/tv/ch1/14-00/today.asf

Note the Saegheh even has the F-5's high front gear during take-off. And they call their guided bombs GBU - just like the Americans.
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NoUFO
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:39 am

Is the two-seater supposed to be "new" as well? I mean, a closer look at the wear and tear of the cockpit indicates that the plane is a bit older.

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NoUFO
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:57 am

An then they have this mockup(?):

http://www.iribnews.ir/newspic/04/08/10/06rsh2.jpg

Edit: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iran/shafaq.htm

[Edited 2006-09-07 00:10:03]
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Devilfish
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:40 am

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Thread starter):
Iran on Wednesday said it has developed a new warplane named "Thunder," which it described as similar to the American F-18 fighter jet.



Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Thread starter):
The fighter jet is "similar to the F-18 fighter jet, but it is more capable and has been manufactured domestically,



Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Thread starter):
"the plane, which has flown dozens of experimental flights during the last year, joined the air force with full fighting capacity."



Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Thread starter):
the jet was "designed, remodeled, optimized and made more capable by our engineers," and added that "no country has aided us in its production."

Time for saber-rattling again. The only things that look similar to the F/A-18 are the twin tailfins. It's a flat-out F-5 hack job. But I do notice a somewhat larger spine. Indeed, no country has aided in its production other than providing the airframes for the conversion. The touted capabilities I would take with a generous helping of salt (although the F-5 is an excellent foundation for upgrades in the right hands.) I wonder how it would fare against its late cousin, the F-20 were it also updated and still around.....  Wink

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glideslope
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:55 am

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Thread starter):
Iranian state television reported that the jet "is able to fire rockets and also to drop bombs and is equipped with an advanced radar system.

Ok, that's a good thing, right? I'll wager it can retract it's gear also.  bigthumbsup 

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Thread starter):
The air force, army and navy have been showing off their capabilities and new hardware for the last month in the Zolfaghar Blow war games, which come amid mounting international concern over Tehran's nuclear programme.

Come on. It's for electricity. I heard the Mullah Omar himself say so.
 angel 

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Thread starter):
Salehi told IRNA the jet was "designed, remodeled, optimized and made more capable by our engineers," and added that "no country has aided us in its production."
[...]

Obviously.
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Devilfish
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:56 am

On second thought, this could be a better gauge of the Saequeh's capabilities.....

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A fly-off between the two would be very interesting!
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j.mo
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Thu Sep 07, 2006 9:08 am

I kept looking for the link to "The Onion" or ModifiedJetfighters.net. What a complete hack job.

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Thread starter):
he fighter jet is "similar to the F-18 fighter jet, but it is more capable and has been manufactured domestically," the commander of the Iranian army General Attollah Salehi was quoted as saying by the state news agency IRNA

^That is some funny stuff...

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Thread starter):
Salehi told IRNA the jet was "designed, remodeled, optimized and made more capable by our engineers," and added that "no country has aided us in its production."

Next we will see their F-14's modified with one tail and the same text above quoted.

JM
 
MissedApproach
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:13 am

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Thread starter):
similar to the F-18 fighter jet, but it is more capable

So they're claiming it's more capable than a plane that first flew in 1978? Bravo! I notice that no figures are provided of course.

Quoting J.mo (Reply 9):
Next we will see their F-14's modified with one tail

 laughing 
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Spacepope
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:13 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 6):
The only things that look similar to the F/A-18 are the twin tailfins

Oh come now. It has squared intakes now, making it equivalent to the Super Hornet! It's even missing wingtip missile rails, just like the EA-18G, which the yankee imperialists haven't even put into service! And no distraction of looking behind you either!

Clearly superior in every way!
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Devilfish
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:15 pm

Quoting J.mo (Reply 9):
Next we will see their F-14's modified with one tail

And fixed geometry wings!  Smile
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BladeLWS
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:41 pm

This is just to funny. Putting twin tails on a F-5, for what? Maybe a smidgin of more manuverability.

They need to learn that they will never see combat. If any war starts with them their entire air force will be taken out by stealth bombers and cruise missiles from the Navy before they can know whats happening. And if anything happened to escape and get airborne, it would be a good test for our Raptor's...
 
L-188
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:56 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 6):
t's a flat-out F-5 hack job.

They seriously ripped Jim Bede off.

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Quoting J.mo (Reply 9):
Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Thread starter):
he fighter jet is "similar to the F-18 fighter jet, but it is more capable and has been manufactured domestically," the commander of the Iranian army General Attollah Salehi was quoted as saying by the state news agency IRNA

^That is some funny stuff

Agreed, that thing doesn't look like it can lift more avionics then an F-5, and there isn't a lot in that airplane to begin with.

Now has it been confirmed that these are new build aircraft or just rebuilds of near 30 year old airframes.
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AirRyan
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:37 am

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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:06 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 15):
that thing doesn't look like it can lift more avionics then an F-5

I wonder whether the Iranians changed the engines? Remember that the Tigershark had impressive climb performance when the powerplant was converted to a single F404(?) from two J85s in the F-5.
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:19 am

Now back to the aerodynamics part of this, what would be the advantage of double tailfins? Increased stability yes, but at the cost of extra drag. And was the stability that much of a problem in the original design?

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 5):
An then they have this mockup(?):

I'd be curious to know who that woman is. A fighter pilot? A politician? Why do they interview her about that plane?
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Gary2880
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:24 am

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 19):
Now back to the aerodynamics part of this, what would be the advantage of double tailfins?

sounds like a daft idea to me anyway. surely this simple idea would have been thought of during the development and thus scrubbed, for good reason no doubt?

not sure why you would want to go tampering with such things myself. If it wasn't like that in the first place, there must be a reason for it. my way of thinking anyway.

(for those that question my consistency, i wished them the best with their attempt, i didn't necessarily say it was a good idea  WinkBig grin
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Devilfish
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:42 am

Quoting Gary2880 (Reply 18):
why? because they updated a design?

Not for you, if you have to ask why.

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 19):
Why do they interview her about that plane?

Maybe she's a member of the design team?  boggled  But that rare model on the stand would be a nice addition to a collection.  Smile
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LMP737
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Fri Sep 08, 2006 6:01 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 15):
Now has it been confirmed that these are new build aircraft or just rebuilds of near 30 year old airframes.

Reading various articles it seems they are rebuilds. Building new would require tooling which they do no have.
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ptrjong
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:07 am

Quoting Gary2880 (Reply 20):
surely this simple idea would have been thought of during the development and thus scrubbed, for good reason no doubt?

Well, when the F-5 was designed there were no fighters with twin tails if I'm not mistaken, except the oddball F7U Cutlass and YF-12. I think it's possible that it was simply not given a thought back then.

The wild Iranian claims about the origin of this aircraft are not even worth debating - odd that most people in this thread concentrate on them, rather than on the aircraft itself.
If we agree that this modification is real, then obviously at least the Iranians themselves think there may be advantages to this. The quick assumption that Iran's aerospace industry is not capable of anything at all is ignorant. Are some people aware that Iran is not a stretch of desert like Libya, but a large nation with over three times the population of Iraq?
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NoUFO
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:52 am

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 19):
I'd be curious to know who that woman is. A fighter pilot? A politician? Why do they interview her about that plane?



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 21):
Maybe she's a member of the design team?

That's right; the source where I got the picture from, indeed says she worked on the the design of the aircraft.
Women in high ranking positions are rare in Iran, but they exist and their number is growing.
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Devilfish
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:38 am

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 23):

The wild Iranian claims about the origin of this aircraft are not even worth debating

On the contrary, no one's debating that, as there seems to be a concensus as to the a/c's provenance.

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 23):
- odd that most people in this thread concentrate on them, rather than on the aircraft itself.

Absent official a/c and performance data, we'd only be limited to speculations.

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 23):
If we agree that this modification is real, then obviously at least the Iranians themselves think there may be advantages to this.

Hence the implied question on the engines being replaced with more powerful types - which might have required the twin tailfins for better stability.

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 23):
The quick assumption that Iran's aerospace industry is not capable of anything at all is ignorant.

The very existence of this aircraft gives the lie to that. In any case, the Saequeh and the Ching-kuo is a very interesting study in contrast - and make a very compelling case for another (forgettable?) installment of Iron Eagle!  Smile
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ptrjong
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:04 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 25):

Absent official a/c and performance data, we'd only be limited to speculations.

Isn't speculating all that is ever done here?  Good post though Devilfish.

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 19):
was the stability that much of a problem in the original design?

I seem to recall that there actually was a stability problem with the Dutch NF-5 aircraft. I think stability was so marginal that the aircraft was banned from flying with non-finned tip tanks, something like that.

[Edited 2006-09-08 02:08:43]
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ebj1248650
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:43 am

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Thread starter):
The report added "the plane, which has flown dozens of experimental flights during the last year, joined the air force with full fighting capacity."

This appears to be about the highly modified F-5E. But what is the airplane that shows up in the 4 pictures clustered together? It's a whole new design and it'd be interesting to hear how far along it has come.
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Devilfish
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:23 pm

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 27):
This appears to be about the highly modified F-5E.

Is that a bomb or rocket launcher slung under the Saequeh's wing in the third picture? Looks a lot like the F-5's 25mm gun.


Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 27):
But what is the airplane that shows up in the 4 pictures clustered together? It's a whole new design and it'd be interesting to hear how far along it has come.

The link in Reply 5 has all you want to know. Although the last two sentences are rather confusing, saying the prototype was ready for first flight four years ahead of roll-out. Maybe they meant "it was erroneously reported that the prototype was ready for first flight in 2004."
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F14D4ever
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:57 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 25):
Hence the implied question on the engines being replaced with more powerful types - which might have required the twin tailfins for better stability.

Okay, since we're speculating, let's run with this. Any guesses what engine they would have installed in place of J85's? What's out there that would fit these criteria:
1) readily available or already in IIAF inventory;
2) close to the 26 inch envelope diameter of the J85;
3) gives worthwhile increment beyond the 5000 lb (a/b) thrust of the J85-21?
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Lumberton
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:23 am

Here's a reasoned look at Iran's claims:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...h-fighter-enters-service/index.php

Quote:
The real result would appear to be an F-5E fighter with slightly improved avionics and improved "low and slow" flight characteristics, but not much more. Iran's ability to modify and/or replace their F-5 E/F fighters and F-5B trainers is not entirely useless, as it will help them bolster their sagging force structure. Nevertheless, comparing the resulting aircraft to even an F/A-18A Hornet would appear to be just more of the usual bluster and overstretch as the clock ticks down on Iran's nuclear program and its leadership's subsequent plans.
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Devilfish
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:35 am

Quoting F14D4ever (Reply 26):
Any guesses what engine they would have installed in place of J85's?


This quote from the linked article in Reply 27 obviates the need for that.....
"The reports were careful not to tout new engines or the ability to fire medium-range missiles"

Given the above information, I think it is safe to assume that even the 1983 vintage Tigershark was more capable than the Saequeh, and that these F-5E modifications were more form than substance. These all the more make doubtful that the "radar absorbent material" Shafaq would rise above what the Taiwanese had achieved with the Ching-Kuo, especially in light of the Russians' withdrawal from the project.

BTW, I noticed Dougloid credited with the last reply on the topics list, but I don't see his post on here. Was it deleted?
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:53 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 28):
BTW, I noticed Dougloid credited with the last reply on the topics list, but I don't see his post on here. Was it deleted?

Mods did some thorough cleaning here. Don't remember what his post was about though...
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ptrjong
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:05 am

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 29):
Don't remember what his post was about though...

If I'm not mistaken it was an interesting assessment of the Saequeh's capabilities. Nothing like the mud-throwing by some other people.
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Devilfish
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:16 pm

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 30):
If I'm not mistaken it was an interesting assessment of the Saequeh's capabilities. Nothing like the mud-throwing by some other people.

So if it was "interesting" and not "mud-throwing" why did they have to delete it?
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acontador
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:15 am

If you look closely at the pictures, you can find following aerodynamicall modifications:

1. Twin fin.
2. Squared engine intakes.
3. New, slightly bigger wing root extension.
4. Enlarged dorsal spine (not sure?).
5. Longer nose (not sure?).

It seems to me that the engine exhausts are the same as a standard F-5, thus I would suppose no big engine change but maybe rather an upgrade.

Putting all these together, and with my limited aerodynamicall knowledge, I would say they were aiming at improving low speed handling characteristics, as well as high speed capabilities. Usually, the unmodified F-5s get tricky to control at lower speeds, particularly with high drag (=heavily loaded) configuration, and they really have only a marginal supersonic capability.
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Dougloid
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:42 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 31):
Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 30):
If I'm not mistaken it was an interesting assessment of the Saequeh's capabilities. Nothing like the mud-throwing by some other people.

So if it was "interesting" and not "mud-throwing" why did they have to delete it?

Guys, the moderators cleaned my clock because of some intemperate language that was used between myself and another poster of the scottish persuasion on the subject of his generally low opinion of us yanquis and my equally low opinion of his relatives. The jab about Culloden was what prompted the hall monitor to clean house.
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MCIGuy
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:06 am

This is simply the latest round of chest beating by the IRI. They're very worried (rightfully so) that they're going to soon lose their reactors and they're desperate to ward off an attack by saying "see, we'll make NATO pay if they attack IRI". In reality we all know that they'd never get the chance 'cause such an attack would come under cover of darkness using LO aircraft. In no small part it's an attempted jab at the US also. "See, we can have fighter jets even if you won't sell us parts for our F-14's".

As for the plane, I have no doubt it's a modified F-5. I think the first fighter to have twin vertical stabs was the MiG-25 Foxbat followed soon by the F-15. The reason wasn't simply high-speed handling, it was about supersonic handling. The designers quickly noticed they were losing yaw control at such speeds so they found a good way to double the surface area of the vertical control surfaces. I have every doubt that this Iranian jet has such capability. While I credit them with a technological advancement, it's still a clay pigeon for any 5th generation fighter and probably any 4th generation fighter.
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DeltaGuy
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:17 am

Funny though, he's wearing a 70's era American helmet and mask (of course, Iran colors applied). Wonder how it feels to fly with American gloves too. Where'd you get it, ebay?



The ejection seat isn't even rigged right on the parachute pack (geek fact). Shoot him down and he's screwed.

This pile looks like it'll win a war against a corner Quik-E-Mart. I'd put my money on an F-8 Crusader up against this POS.

DeltaGuy
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texfly101
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:07 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 33):
Guys, the moderators cleaned my clock because of some intemperate language that was used between myself and another poster of the scottish persuasion on the subject of his generally low opinion of us yanquis and my equally low opinion of his relatives. The jab about Culloden was what prompted the hall monitor to clean house.

You got my vote...go get 'em tiger...now will this get deleted? Seriously tho, this is just a PR flack item, done at the governments instruction for their public distribution, just like Baghdad Bob's hilarious chest beating with Abrams in the background.
 
Dougloid
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RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5

Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:45 am

Quoting Texfly101 (Reply 36):
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 33):
Guys, the moderators cleaned my clock because of some intemperate language that was used between myself and another poster of the scottish persuasion on the subject of his generally low opinion of us yanquis and my equally low opinion of his relatives. The jab about Culloden was what prompted the hall monitor to clean house.

You got my vote...go get 'em tiger...now will this get deleted? Seriously tho, this is just a PR flack item, done at the governments instruction for their public distribution, just like Baghdad Bob's hilarious chest beating with Abrams in the background.

Nahhhhhhh, I'm a goooooooood doggie now LOL.

If this is typical of what they are dreaming up (along with built in Iran reverse engineered North Korean, reverse engineered Chinese, reverse engineered Societ reverse engineered German V2s) we probably do not have to worry too much about the Iranian nuke program in the short term.

Ahamdinejad....whatta maroon.

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