747400sp
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Will The P-8 Have 767400er Type Wing Tips Or Not?

Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:05 am

From what I have been reading. The P-3 replacement the Boeing P-8 is a 737800 with wings that has 767400er wing tip instead of the winglet that most 737NG have. I just wanted to be sure that I got the P-8 design right. So do the P-8 have 767400er wing tips? If so this will make it a interesting looking 737 NG.
 
N231YE
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RE: Will The P-8 Have 767400er Type Wing Tips Or Not?

Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:29 am

I can't be too sure on the 767-400ER wingtips, given that the 737 and 767 have different wings. Maybe they will have raked wingtips instead of blended winglets, but I doubt it will be the 767-400ER's.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Will The P-8 Have 767400er Type Wing Tips Or Not?

Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:40 am

Yes, they will have a simmilary type of wingtip, but not the exact same dimensions.
 
aeroweanie
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RE: Will The P-8 Have 767400er Type Wing Tips Or Not?

Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:46 am

The APB winglets were dropped and it will have raked tips, looking like those on the 767-400ER, 777-200LR and 777-300ER.
 
747400sp
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RE: Will The P-8 Have 767400er Type Wing Tips Or Not?

Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:29 am

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 3):
The APB winglets were dropped and it will have raked tips, looking like those on the 767-400ER, 777-200LR and 777-300ER.

Good! Very good!
 
aeroweanie
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RE: Will The P-8 Have 767400er Type Wing Tips Or Not?

Fri Sep 08, 2006 1:24 pm

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_P-8A_MMA_Changed_Wing_lg.jpg
 
Devilfish
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RE: Will The P-8 Have 767400er Type Wing Tips Or Not?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:22 am

And another thing it will have is a new name - POSEIDON, Greek god of the sea.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...eing+P-8A+after+Greek+sea+god.html
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Will The P-8 Have 767400er Type Wing Tips Or Not?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:38 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 6):
And another thing it will have is a new name - POSEIDON, Greek god of the sea.....

Good, I was afraid they would pick Madusa, the lady with the snakes for her hair.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Will The P-8 Have 767400er Type Wing Tips Or Not?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:07 am

Reason for the raked tips is so that signals to/from the aircraft would not be affected. The winglets would interfere with the signals.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
Devilfish
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RE: Will The P-8 Have 767400er Type Wing Tips Or Not?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:09 am

The only dismaying bit there is IOC won't be until 2013.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
JakeOrion
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RE: Will The P-8 Have 767400er Type Wing Tips Or Not?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:21 am

On the subject:

For this particular mission, is it a good idea to replace a prop with a jet? I mean, could speed of the aircraft hinder its searching abilities? Or it doesn't matter?

Thanks for the input, as I know nothing about this mission field.
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
 
cancidas
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RE: Will The P-8 Have 767400er Type Wing Tips Or Not?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:57 am

is the P-8 going to be based off the -700 or the -800 fuselage?
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Will The P-8 Have 767400er Type Wing Tips Or Not?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:10 am

Quoting Cancidas (Reply 11):

-800.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Will The P-8 Have 767400er Type Wing Tips Or Not?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:13 am

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 10):
For this particular mission, is it a good idea to replace a prop with a jet? I mean, could speed of the aircraft hinder its searching abilities? Or it doesn't matter?

The RAF Nimrod is one of the most successful maritime role aircraft in the past 50 years - its fantastic at its job mainly because its a jet. Hopefully, the P-8 will be as well.

Also, jet aircraft are harder to detect underwater (by subs etc) because its engines emit less low frequency sound and more higher frequency sound - the high frequency sound does not react well within the water boundaries.

Jet aircraft also have a hiogher dash speed, allowing them to get to patrol areas faster. Also in a search, the more area covered the better.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Will The P-8 Have 767400er Type Wing Tips Or Not?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:42 am

Quoting Cancidas (Reply 11):
is the P-8 going to be based off the -700 or the -800 fuselage?

Think of the P-8 as a "737-800ER." Essentially, the BBJ2 airframe except with raked wingtips.

For what it's worth, I think it'd be nifty to see raked wingtips as an option on other variants.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
zanl188
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RE: Will The P-8 Have 767400er Type Wing Tips Or Not?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:16 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 6):
POSEIDON, Greek god of the sea.....

Or for students of pop culture... a ship that turns upside down... a bad thing for a long range patrol aircraft
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Thorny
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RE: Will The P-8 Have 767400er Type Wing Tips Or Not?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:45 am

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 15):

Or for students of pop culture... a ship that turns upside down... a bad thing for a long range patrol aircraft

Also, a Submarine Launched Ballistic Missile in service in the 1970s and 80s.

AvLeak revealed the name of the P-8 many months ago. I wonder what took so long for the name to become official.
 
usnseallt82
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RE: Will The P-8 Have 767400er Type Wing Tips Or Not?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:54 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 13):
Jet aircraft also have a hiogher dash speed, allowing them to get to patrol areas faster. Also in a search, the more area covered the better.

The only problem we're running into is the need for our P-3's to be on station and at low altitudes for long periods of time. The P-8 won't be near as efficient at these altitudes, so new technology will be included in the package to counter this.
Crye me a river
 
arluna
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RE: Will The P-8 Have 767400er Type Wing Tips Or Not?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:07 pm

The P-8 in the picture doesn't have a MAD boom. Has the Navy decided that the MAD boom is not needed or has the technology for detecting magnetic anomalies advanced enough that the boom isn't needed?

J
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Will The P-8 Have 767400er Type Wing Tips Or Not?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:10 pm

Is this the same as the 737MMA? The one that's equipped with under-wing missiles and a bomb bay?



Mark
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RE: Will The P-8 Have 767400er Type Wing Tips Or Not?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:24 pm

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 19):

Bad ass 737 if you ask me!  bigthumbsup 
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
Thorny
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RE: Will The P-8 Have 767400er Type Wing Tips Or Not?

Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:27 pm

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 19):
Is this the same as the 737MMA? The one that's equipped with under-wing missiles and a bomb bay?

Yes. MMA is now P-8 Poseidon.
 
usnseallt82
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RE: Will The P-8 Have 767400er Type Wing Tips Or Not?

Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:26 am

Quoting Arluna (Reply 18):
Has the Navy decided that the MAD boom is not needed or has the technology for detecting magnetic anomalies advanced enough that the boom isn't needed?

Won't be needed like it used to be. New technology.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 19):
Is this the same as the 737MMA? The one that's equipped with under-wing missiles and a bomb bay?

Yep, just like the P-3 with the same setup.

Quoting Thorny (Reply 21):
MMA is now P-8 Poseidon

It is still called the MMA around the fleet. Poseidon just sounds funny.
Crye me a river
 
aeroweanie
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RE: Will The P-8 Have 767400er Type Wing Tips Or N

Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:29 am

From the Correspondence column of the January 1, 2007 issue of Aviation Week & Space Technology:

I take exception to comments attributed to Boeing Vice President Jack Zerr in the article "Know Your COTS" (AW&ST Nov. 27, 2006, p.78).

It was stated that 737 blended winglets were magnets for ice buildup on long patrols in arctic regions. This statement is without basis in fact; extensive flight experience never has shown icing to be an issue for the 737-800 with blended winglets. Our analysis indicates that even in severe icing, the consequences of any ice buildup for performance and safety would be less significant for the winglet configuration. And, blended winglets increase fuel efficiency by as much as 7% while the raked-tip performance is about half that number.

Icing has never been an issue and if it had been, there are inexpensive anti-icing systems available for blended winglets. The expense associated with a new aerodynamic wingtip shape for the Boeing P-8A derivative is unneccessary when a 3-hr. flight test on a stock 737-800 would prove the point. The use of blended winglets is the best and cheapest solution for the P-8A.

Joe Clark, CEO
Aviation Partners, Inc.
Seattle, Wash.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Will The P-8 Have 767400er Type Wing Tips Or N

Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:23 am

He's just trying to justify his bread and butter. Blended winglets save 3.5-4.5% fuel burn, while raked wingtips save 5.5%—see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingtip_devices for more info and links to Boeing and NASA flight testing.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
aeroweanie
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RE: Will The P-8 Have 767400er Type Wing Tips Or Not?

Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:36 am

N328KF:

No, Joe is right. The blended winglets are fully certified for flight into known icing. The NASA data you refer to is for first generation winglets. API/APB blended winglets are now fifth generation and far superior. The info on the Wikipedia page regarding the performance of raked wingtips vs. blended winglets is not correct (and according to the page's history, you were the editor of that page).

Quoting myself in http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eroweanie+winglet+benefit#ID113399

For a first-order analysis of the benefit from a winglet, lay it down flat as if it was a span extension. Hence, taller is better. Then, look at whether the winglet joins the wing in a sharp break or a smooth flow. Smooth is better.

Using this criteria, I'll rank the winglets (and raked tip):

1) The A3100/310/318/319/320/321/380 "winglets" are the least effective, but also increase wing bending moments the least. I have never seen a published number for how much they reduce drag (even Jupp's patent US4,714,215 says little), but I'd guess they are worth 1-1.5% drag improvement.

2) The MD-11 winglets come next. They are a direct outgrowth of Whitcomb's original designs. I have some NASA reports on the flight testing of a similar winglet on a DC-10. According to CR-3704, these winglets are produce a 2-2.5% drag reduction in cruise.

3) The Valsan/Quietwing 727 winglets are a latter Whitcomb influenced design. Coupled with a flap droop on the 727, they are reputed to be worth about 5%. The flap droop reduces wing bending moments and helps reduce wave drag, so the 5% is a mixture of effects. The winglet by itself is probably worth about 3%.

4) The 747-400 and A330/340 winglets are rather similar. They fall on the wing span extension line. I've read that the 747-400 winglets produce about a 3.5% drag reduction.

5) The 776-400ER/777-300ER/777-200LR raked tips also fall on the span extension line. They produce varying amounts of drag reduction, depending on their span. They also increase wing bending moments quite a bit.

6) The API/APB blended winglets produce better results than the span extension line indicates. The 737NG winglets are first generation and I've read that they produce about a 4.5% drag reduction. Later API/APB winglets improve on this.
 
sidishus
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RE: Will The P-8 Have 767400er Type Wing Tips Or Not?

Sun Jan 21, 2007 12:25 am

The best thing about the P-8 wings is that the wet tanks are being reengineered to reduce the threat of hydrodynamic ram from battle damage.

This aint your normal 737 NG just painted gray and turned into a Faux Warbird....

http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=19945
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SP90
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RE: Will The P-8 Have 767400er Type Wing Tips Or Not?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:38 am

Quoting Arluna (Reply 18):
The P-8 in the picture doesn't have a MAD boom. Has the Navy decided that the MAD boom is not needed or has the technology for detecting magnetic anomalies advanced enough that the boom isn't needed?


I thought that thing sticking out the back was the MAD? Maybe technology advancements has allowed them to make it smaller/shorter?
 
Devilfish
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RE: Will The P-8 Have 767400er Type Wing Tips Or Not?

Wed May 30, 2007 2:17 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 22):
New technology.

Speaking of new technology, the Navy now wants to include a major system upgrade before the Poseidon detailed design is frozen.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...s-navy-requests-enhanced-p-8a.html

Quote:
"The US Navy is seeking funds to launch a major mission system upgrade to its future submarine-hunting fleet of Boeing P-8A Poseidon multi-mission maritime aircraft, even though the baseline design for the modified 737 airliner will not be finalised until late June. .....

Meanwhile, the USN's fiscal year 2008 budget request includes funds to launch the first of several planned upgrade 'spirals' aimed at keeping the P-8A fleet current with emerging threats. The Spiral 1 upgrade request introduces new multi-static software algorithms to improve onboard processing capability for the acoustic sensors that will hunt for submarines from 2015, says Capt Mike Moran, the navy's P-8A integrated product team leader."
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield

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