BOE773
Topic Author
Posts: 413
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:02 am

Firefly T-3A Fleet To Be Destroyed.

Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:07 am

The Air Force's fleet of 110 T-3A Firefly aircraft will be destroyed after the airplane's short but deadly run in the service's pilot training program during the 1990s, the Air Force said Friday.

The British-made T-3 replaced the T-41 aircraft in 1993 but was grounded in 1997 after three Air Force Academy cadets and their three instructors died in separate crashes in consecutive years..

The Slingsby T-3A was used in the Enhanced Flight Screening Program.

The decision to destroy the planes was delayed by litigation involving Air Force claims against the manufacturer, Smith said.
 
MissedApproach
Posts: 678
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:12 am

RE: Firefly T-3A Fleet To Be Destroyed.

Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:19 am

This little guy?

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Michael Baldock


Seems innocent enough. Was there a trend in the crashes?
Can you hear me now?
 
BOE773
Topic Author
Posts: 413
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:02 am

RE: Firefly T-3A Fleet To Be Destroyed.

Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:26 am

Yea, that little guy. He looks just like a stretched Katana.
Check this out:

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/t3bar.pdf
 
Lumberton
Posts: 4176
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:34 am

RE: Firefly T-3A Fleet To Be Destroyed.

Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:26 am

Has anything replaced theT-3?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
MigFan
Posts: 710
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:50 am

RE: Firefly T-3A Fleet To Be Destroyed.

Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:28 am

sharp looking aircraft too, shame
UH-60's suck!!!
 
BOE773
Topic Author
Posts: 413
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:02 am

RE: Firefly T-3A Fleet To Be Destroyed.

Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:38 am

The English never had much luck selling their aircraft to the world.
Concordes, Tridents and VC10s were a few of the failures.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Firefly T-3A Fleet To Be Destroyed.

Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:45 am

I don't fault Slingsby for despite what the air force claims.

The problem was that the Air Force changed the engine when they spec'd out the aircraft. The design is a very successful trainer in England, but the USAF wanted a bigger engine, which I believe combined with the higher altitudes of Colorado Springs

It is worthwhile to note that the USAF did not have the same problems with the aircraft that not assigned to the Academy but to lower altitude bases.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
MissedApproach
Posts: 678
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:12 am

RE: Firefly T-3A Fleet To Be Destroyed.

Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:50 am

Didn't the SAAF get rid of a newish trainer & dig old ones out of storage (T-6 Harvard/Texan IIRC)?
Wasn't there a plane with suitable power that fit the USAF's requirements without modification?
Can you hear me now?
 
RAFOHunter
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:45 pm

RE: Firefly T-3A Fleet To Be Destroyed.

Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:40 pm

Slingsby have extremely good products. The US military has a history of changing the specs on service aircraft and then sueing the manufacturers when there's a problem.

Quoting BOE773 (Reply 5):
The English never had much luck selling their aircraft to the world.
Concordes, Tridents and VC10s were a few of the failures.

Can't remember too many indigenous Canadian planes getting sold abroad!!! Don't see too many Avro Arrows around the world!

UK had a lot of success selling aircraft - and giving away the technology.

Tridents and VC10's were in use with airlines around the world. Comet sold overseas. Harrier, Jaguar, Hunter, Hawk to name but a few.

As for Concorde, only the French and English had the balls to fly them, and for many successful years too. Politics took too much away from other countries being able to buy them. Canada backed off when the US backed out of buying the Concorde. How surprising!
 
BOE773
Topic Author
Posts: 413
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:02 am

RE: Firefly T-3A Fleet To Be Destroyed.

Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:55 pm

Quoting RAFOHunter (Reply 8):

>Tridents and VC10's were in use with airlines around the world.<

These two types were far from being roaring successes in the world marketplace.

VC10 - 54
Trident - 114.
 
David L
Posts: 8552
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Firefly T-3A Fleet To Be Destroyed.

Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:08 pm

Quoting BOE773 (Reply 9):
These two types were far from being roaring successes in the world marketplace.

VC10 - 54
Trident - 114.

Too much interference from our state owned airlines.
 
CPDC10-30
Posts: 4681
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 4:30 pm

RE: Firefly T-3A Fleet To Be Destroyed.

Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:43 am

Quoting RAFOHunter (Reply 8):
Can't remember too many indigenous Canadian planes getting sold abroad!!! Don't see too many Avro Arrows around the world!

These are in current production, not to mention others made in the past (and some I have neglected to add and their derivatives):


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Vladimir Kostritsa




View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Daniel J. Evans




View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Florian Kondziela




View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Johan Paulus



While it isn't nice saying that British aircraft haven't had many market successes, it is quite true at least in the past 40 years.
 
RAFOHunter
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:45 pm

RE: Firefly T-3A Fleet To Be Destroyed.

Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:28 am

Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 11):
These are in current production, not to mention others made in the past (and some I have neglected to add and their derivatives):

Yes, conceded, not too much in the last 40 years!

I had totally dismissed Bombardier (used to work for them too!) Canadair and DHC. One other for the list would be the very successful DHC Chipmunk (I prefer the smaller planes).
 
GDB
Posts: 12679
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Firefly T-3A Fleet To Be Destroyed.

Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:38 am

As some have said already, the Slingsbury is in successful use elsewhere, a contractor here providing intial flight screening for the MoD had them too.

Having said that, 20 years ago, when the RAF were in search of a turboprop trainer to replace the Jet Provosts, they wanted something off the shelf-or as much off the shelf as RAF specs would allow.
What they got, was the Tucano-built by Shorts under licence, but with a Garrett engine replacing the PT-6.

Shorts might have been selected for political reasons, the engine change reason (on an already successful design), is less clear cut.
The RAF really wanted BAe to built a version of the Swiss PC-9.
The NDN Firecracker aircraft looked great too, but lacked a big production partner, also needed development. (If an aircraft cannot be developed to production for your home air force, how the hell is it supposed to be built and be a success?)

Though Shorts did export it's Tucano versions to Kenya and Kuwait, BAe included the PC-9 in their huge deals with Saudi.
 
BOE773
Topic Author
Posts: 413
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:02 am

RE: Firefly T-3A Fleet To Be Destroyed.

Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:21 am

Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 11):
While it isn't nice saying that British aircraft haven't had many market successes, it is quite true at least in the past 40 years.

Well I'm sorry to sound insulting.
Yes indeed, the Hawk and Harrier were successful.
 
David L
Posts: 8552
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Firefly T-3A Fleet To Be Destroyed.

Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:37 am

Quoting RAFOHunter (Reply 8):
Tridents and VC10's were in use with airlines around the world. Comet sold overseas. Harrier, Jaguar, Hunter, Hawk to name but a few.

The BAC 1-11, Viscount and BAe 146 didn't do too badly, either - they even sold in the USA. And then there are our more recent collaborative projects, such as the Jaguar, Tornado, Typhoon and Airbus.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 6):
The problem was that the Air Force changed the engine when they spec'd out the aircraft. The design is a very successful trainer in England, but the USAF wanted a bigger engine, which I believe combined with the higher altitudes of Colorado Springs



Quoting BOE773 (Reply 2):
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/t3bar.pdf

Looking at Table 2.1 in that article, I'm struggling to relate the "fatal mishaps" with faults in the aircraft:

1984 UK Aerobatics 1 Aerial display; insufficient altitude for maneuver
1984 UK Cross Country 1 On training flight, pilot became lost and attempted a bail-out too low
1985 UK Spin 2 Failed to recover, no pre-impact defects
1987 UK Aerobatics 2 Engine failure while inverted in loop. Probably pilot error, since placards warn against negative G flight
1987 Sweden Aerobatics 1 Low level aerobatics
1987 UK Aerobatics 2 Pilot initiated maneuver too low
1987 Switzerland Spin 2 Spun too low to ground---no defects noted
1989 Japan Aerobatics 2 Steep turn after takeoff, rolled inverted
1989 Turkey SFL 2 Wing dropped near the ground
1989 Turkey Formation 2 On inside of turn after takeoff, hit house
1990 UK Aerobatics 1 Misjudged altitude during aerobatics
1990 New Zealand Aerobatics 1 No information
 
manzoori
Posts: 1459
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2002 7:08 am

RE: Firefly T-3A Fleet To Be Destroyed.

Wed Sep 13, 2006 9:14 pm

Quoting BOE773 (Reply 14):
Well I'm sorry to sound insulting

No you're not! You repeatedly post topics bashing anything British and quite frankly it's getting really tiresome. I've lost count of how many of your inflammatory threads have been deleted.

Seriously... Get a life!
Flightlineimages DOT Com Photographer & Web Editor. RR Turbines Specialist
 
BOE773
Topic Author
Posts: 413
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:02 am

RE: Firefly T-3A Fleet To Be Destroyed.

Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:15 am

The empire is long dead.
 
David L
Posts: 8552
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Firefly T-3A Fleet To Be Destroyed.

Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:40 am

Quoting BOE773 (Reply 17):
The empire is long dead.

What has Star Wars got to do with it?  confused 
 
BOE773
Topic Author
Posts: 413
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:02 am

RE: Firefly T-3A Fleet To Be Destroyed.

Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:00 am

Personally I think that the engine to airframe fuel line(s) interface needed some tweaking to preclude the vapor lock problem. Then the craft would have been a winner.
 
User avatar
Devilfish
Posts: 5371
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

RE: Firefly T-3A Fleet To Be Destroyed.

Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:57 am

Quoting BOE773 (Thread starter):
The Air Force's fleet of 110 T-3A Firefly aircraft will be destroyed after the airplane's short but deadly run in the service's pilot training program during the 1990s, the Air Force said Friday.

Why destroy perfectly serviceable aircraft? I'm sure the Phil. Air Force (for one) would be ecstatic to receive those as donations.  Smile They have a knack for turning junk into useful items (not saying the T-3As are junk, mind you.)

Quoting GDB (Reply 13):
the Slingsbury is in successful use elsewhere,

Quite a macabre name for a successful product? Anyway, the mishap list quoted in Reply 15 do suggest it was judged harshly.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 6):

It is worthwhile to note that the USAF did not have the same problems with the aircraft that not assigned to the Academy but to lower altitude bases.

Most bases in RP are near sea level and training flights are mostly conducted away from mountainous areas.  Smile

Quoting RAFOHunter (Reply 8):
The US military has a history of changing the specs on service aircraft and then sueing the manufacturers when there's a problem.



Quoting Manzoori (Reply 16):
repeatedly post topics bashing anything British

With this shameless plug (begging?), I'd go out on a limb and say the PAF would never disparage the Slingsby nor sue the donors if some of the T-3As were given to them!  yes 
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Firefly T-3A Fleet To Be Destroyed.

Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:10 am

Quoting BOE773 (Reply 19):
Personally I think that the engine to airframe fuel line(s) interface needed some tweaking to preclude the vapor lock problem. Then the craft would have been a winner.

I want to say that was the cause of all if not most of those USAF crashes and the condition was exastrabated by the hot and high conditions at Colorado Springs.

Again, I think the big issue was an airframe system/engine mismatch when the USAF spec'd that larger motor then everybody else was using.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
GDB
Posts: 12679
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Firefly T-3A Fleet To Be Destroyed.

Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:45 am

The road to hell can be paved with spec changes.
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Firefly T-3A Fleet To Be Destroyed.

Sat Sep 16, 2006 5:43 am




Quoting BOE773 (Reply 5):
The English never had much luck selling their aircraft to the world.

Don't forget the Hawkers....


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Chi-Ping Chih
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jerry Search






2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
MissedApproach
Posts: 678
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:12 am

RE: Firefly T-3A Fleet To Be Destroyed.

Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:03 am

So hey, what will replace (or has replaced) these airplanes in the USAF?
Can you hear me now?
 
BOE773
Topic Author
Posts: 413
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:02 am

RE: Firefly T-3A Fleet To Be Destroyed.

Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:21 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 23):

Sales for these exec jets took off when Beechcraft, then Raytheon took control of them.
 
User avatar
Devilfish
Posts: 5371
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

RE: Firefly T-3A Fleet To Be Destroyed.

Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:20 am

A newsbrief in Flight International says the destruction of the T-3as was to have taken place Sep 25. Anyone has a link to a video or a photo?
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: A350, cumulushumilis and 6 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos