ebj1248650
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Politics And The KC330

Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:18 am

Food for thought. Our European allies haven't taken kindly to our invasion of Iraq and that's been a sore spot where relations with the United States are concerned. I have to wonder if the selection of the KC-330, as part of the overall tanker package, might not be an attempt to mend political fences. It definitely would give the Europeans cause to look at the US in a somewhat more positive light.

Yes, I know many of the folks who frequent these forums will argue there's no way Boeing is going to loose even part of the tanker contract, but politics have impacted many a military procurement program before, as we all know.

Consider too that England is supposed to be looking at buying Rafale M fighters for the Royal Navy. Might that be an attempt on England's part to strengthen ties with France? After all, they could just as easily have chosen the Hornet or Super Hornet.

My point, folks, is that military needs aren't necessarily the only considerations when a production contract is being put together. Money and political powers talk ... even if the end result doesn't make sense to us airplane nuts.
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kc135topboom
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:38 am

I don't think the Europeans will think better of the US just on a KC-30 buy by the USAF. There is already billions of US dollars, and Euros between the US and the EU. Look at all the Airbus airplanes already bought and in service in US airlines. Don't forget about all the BMWs, Audis, Volvos, Coopers, and VWs on the road in the US. Buying 100 tankers won't change anything there.

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Thread starter):
Consider too that England is supposed to be looking at buying Rafale M fighters for the Royal Navy. Might that be an attempt on England's part to strengthen ties with France? After all, they could just as easily have chosen the Hornet or Super Hornet.

No, the UK and French relationship will not change because of the Rafales in the RN. Those airplanes are only being bought for use on the joint RN/French Navy CVE, a ship designed for the Rafale. The Hornet or Super Bug will not be able to fly off her deck.

The attititude of the French can not be changed by trade or dollars.
 
Arniepie
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:48 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
a ship designed for the Rafale. The Hornet or Super Bug will not be able to fly off her deck.

Looking at their size, weight and setup (catapult and landing systems) the RAFALE and HORNET(incl superH) seem to be fully interchangeable.
I doubt the Hornet couldn't be used on these new vessels.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
The attititude of the French can not be changed by trade or dollars.

I think you give them a bit too much credit here.
They have a history of basing their politics on their economic interests.
[edit post]
 
PADSpot
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:43 pm

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Thread starter):
I have to wonder if the selection of the KC-330, as part of the overall tanker package, might not be an attempt to mend political fences. It definitely would give the Europeans cause to look at the US in a somewhat more positive light.

You cannot buy friends with money. That relationship wouldn't be worth a cent. Ich think putting politics back onto a common value basis is the only mean to return a partnership that is more than just handshakes and sweet talk.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
I don't think the Europeans will think better of the US just on a KC-30 buy by the USAF. There is already billions of US dollars, and Euros between the US and the EU. Look at all the Airbus airplanes already bought and in service in US airlines. Don't forget about all the BMWs, Audis, Volvos, Coopers, and VWs on the road in the US. Buying 100 tankers won't change anything there.

Well, if it ever happened more than 50% of the plane's value would come from the States ... it would be more an American product than a European one. That would include engines, all the refuelling equipment, final assembly and a great share of general minor parts that nevertheless come from the States (like lighting and landing gear from Goodrich, Avionics from Honeywell and Collins and so on and so forth). A Boeing tanker might have 80% local content and an Airbus at least 60%. I don't know if these 20% difference are worth the fuss that is made about it.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:49 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 3):
Well, if it ever happened more than 50% of the plane's value would come from the States ... it would be more an American product than a European one.

Doesn't the proposal call for the A-330F to be built in Europe, then flown to MOB and modified into tankers and redesignated as the KC-30? True, there will still be a lot of US content in the KC-30, but it will still have the basic airplane assembled in France.
 
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:52 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
Doesn't the proposal call for the A-330F to be built in Europe, then flown to MOB and modified into tankers and redesignated as the KC-30?

Didn't Airbus offer to open a final assembly in the US if the order is large enough? I think so ...
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:08 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 5):
Didn't Airbus offer to open a final assembly in the US if the order is large enough? I think so ...

They have said that in the press, IIRC. But, that is not what Northrupt has said.
 
ebj1248650
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:10 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
Quoting PADSpot (Reply 5):
Didn't Airbus offer to open a final assembly in the US if the order is large enough? I think so ...

They have said that in the press, IIRC. But, that is not what Northrupt has said.

The plant is supposed to be built in Montgomery, Alabama and there's already a lot of excitement there over the prospect of the airplane being built there.
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AirSpare
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:21 am

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 2):
They have a history of basing their politics on their economic interests.

 checkmark  Remember the Exocet? Iran and who else? When it comes to money, well, the French seem be such harlots.

I don't want the KC-330 in the USAF fleet, only becasue of the France/NATO shennanigans, and they denied the USAF over flight permission when Reagan bombed Libya after PanAm 103.

For me, yea it is political.

I'd welcome a British made tanker. Short Brothers! What have you been doing lately?  Smile
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bhmbaglock
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:31 am

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 7):
The plant is supposed to be built in Montgomery, Alabama and there's already a lot of excitement there over the prospect of the airplane being built there.

Mobile, not Montgomery. The location in Mobile is excellent for this as it is an underutilized airport that it also part of a large port complex on Mobile Bay.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
Doesn't the proposal call for the A-330F to be built in Europe, then flown to MOB and modified into tankers and redesignated as the KC-30?

My understanding is that fuselage sections, wings, etc. will be built in Europe as now but actual airframe assembly will be in Mobile.

EADS is already building an engineering center at Brookley that will be opening in a few months.

One thing many overlook is the political support the KC30 is likely to get in the US. The plant location chosen will draw workers from three states (AL, FL, MS) so this is likely to put six senators on its side. Add in McCain and a few others and it doesn't look so bad politically.

It's also likely to get some support from other Southern states as its success would add to the progress the South has made lately towards building up its Aerospace manufacturing base, i.e. EADS for helicopters in MS, Boeing for Delta rockets in AL, huge buildup of US Army program offices in HSV along with many vendors, 787 work in SC, etc.

This region is already picking up most new auto plants in the US and definitely has its eye on becoming the preferred solution for aerospace as well. The only major disappointment recently in aerospace was losing the 787 final assembly competition to WA. Incidentally, the EADS/Northrup KC30 assembly site was the runner up in this.
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kc135topboom
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:44 am

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 9):
My understanding is that fuselage sections, wings, etc. will be built in Europe as now but actual airframe assembly will be in Mobile.

Shipping these components by ship will add a lot to the cost, in both time and money, to the KC-30.
 
dw747400
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:22 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
Shipping these components by ship will add a lot to the cost, in both time and money, to the KC-30.

I assume the Beluga would be used for most shipments, though I'm not sure if the existing fleet could support expansion to a US plant--especially if any major operations start up in Russia or China in the same time frame. Their oversized airlift fleet would be pretty pressured to keep up.
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Devilfish
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:48 pm

Quoting Dw747400 (Reply 11):
though I'm not sure if the existing fleet could support expansion to a US plant-

There's always the Antonov for rent or.....

They could certainly buy parked 747s and rush the conversions into LCFs, but must first ask (nicely) permission from Boeing and EVA.  Smile
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bhmbaglock
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:07 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
Shipping these components by ship will add a lot to the cost, in both time and money, to the KC-30.

If you can design your logistics around the added transit time to bring things in by ship vs. Beluga, the costs would actually be much less. That said, Airbus/EADS hasn't exactly been shining in the precision logistics area lately.
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PADSpot
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:56 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
Shipping these components by ship will add a lot to the cost, in both time and money, to the KC-30.

Costs for shipping are negligible. Especially if you have a multi-year contract with a steady flow of deliveries you can send most parts via ship. That's costs close to nothing compared to the later price. Ships are basically the cheapest mean of transport ever developed ... far cheaper than a truck (per ton/mile).
 
Tancrede
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:22 pm

Oh my! I do love my American friends. You are just begging for heated debate with this kind of threads. And don’t say that we started it.

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Thread starter):
Our European allies haven't taken kindly to our invasion of Iraq and that's been a sore spot where relations with the United States are concerned.

And you still did not understand why. Have you check the last news from the past week. That will explain everything, why we didn’t want to go in. And I bet that for the next twenty years, you are going to hear more of this kind of news. But, if you are happy to spoil your youngsters and your taxpayer’s money there, that’s only your problem, but don’t blame others, please. We did not ask you to go there.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
The attitude of the French can not be changed by trade or dollars.

You are right about that one, but because France is a country rule by realist politics, we are happy to get commercial contracts from whatever parts of the world – even from Iran (BTW like the Germans) – shame on us Europeans.
  

[Edited 2006-10-05 09:26:26]

[Edited 2006-10-05 09:39:04]
 
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par13del
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:48 pm

The tanker deal from the American side is all about the money, the political "gift" to their European Allies was made a few months ago. What exactly do you think it means to have the office of POTUS flying around in a European Helicopter? The SAR troops require the best equipment around, so they get the best, the office of POTUS, however, has a larger political meaning that goes beyond the "best" moniker, are US designed helicopters so unsafe that their leader who represents them can't fly in one?

Regardless of where its made and how much US content is involved, the world will see and know it as a European product, on the plus side, after the Dubai port scandal, it does show how much the US embraces globalism when POTUS personal transport is a non-US product, does give hope to the day that a A380 landing at a US airport will have the call sign Air Force One, after all, the precedent has been set and Americans do really believe in the principle of precedents.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:18 am

Quoting Tancrede (Reply 15):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
The attitude of the French can not be changed by trade or dollars.

You are right about that one, but because France is a country rule by realist politics, we are happy to get commercial contracts from whatever parts of the world – even from Iran

I would not call French politicians "realist". But, that discussion is better suited for another board. As for the rest of your statement, I agree with you. There in (your statement) lies most of the world's problems.
 
ebj1248650
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:58 am

Quoting Tancrede (Reply 15):
Quoting EBJ1248650 (Thread starter):
Our European allies haven't taken kindly to our invasion of Iraq and that's been a sore spot where relations with the United States are concerned.

And you still did not understand why. Have you check the last news from the past week. That will explain everything, why we didn’t want to go in. And I bet that for the next twenty years, you are going to hear more of this kind of news. But, if you are happy to spoil your youngsters and your taxpayer’s money there, that’s only your problem, but don’t blame others, please. We did not ask you to go there.

The statement I made wasn't intended to be the starter for a political row. Rather, it was a statement meant to remind readers of this forum that there is a sore spot in relations with our European allies and explain what that spot is. No, you didn't ask us to go in and yes we'll pay for the blunder for years to come. Satisfied? My point was that buying the KC-30 might help a lot to mend relations with our European allies. Plain and simple.
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Devilfish
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:05 am

Update:

Newly revised KC-X RFP likely to cause additional controversy. The RFP now contains language specifically requiring "treaty compliance" .....

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...-X+tanker+replacement+contest.html
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atmx2000
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Sun Oct 08, 2006 12:46 pm

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 18):
My point was that buying the KC-30 might help a lot to mend relations with our European allies. Plain and simple.

It's idiotic to suggest that we are going to give huge contracts to mend relations with anyone. Appropriations go through Congress, and they don't care too much about what State thinks (if State ever came up with such a stupid idea). Either the Pentagon gives well justified technical reason for spending a large sum of tax dollars on foreign military gear for a vital , or Congress will wonder why their districts/states aren't getting more

And no offence, I don't believe there is any need to mend relations with Europe, particularly France. After all, this was the country that abandoned their allies out of some combination of cowardice and oil contracts with Iraq. After the Gulf war, they were patrolling the northern fly zone protecting the Kurds along with the US and UK, but when Saddam continued threatening Kuwait and attacking Shi'ites in southern Iraq and Clinton instituted the southern no-flyzone, France used that as an excuse to back out of the northern no-flyzone. Within a year or so, French oil companies signed oil contracts with Saddam.
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JayinKitsap
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:53 am

France in particular has made life difficult for the US inside NATO for a long time, but moreso since the Soviet Union vanished. France was the country that so wanted the EU to have a fighting force so NATO could be pused out. Politically, congress sees any vote that seems to favor a French over a US company (yes I think the US congress sees Airbus and EADS as French controlled, and I think feels that the EU is also a French leaning institution.)

I think also France's behavior before Iraq would make the US military pause over any entity being able to deny spare parts if the equipment is being used to support a mission that France objects to.

Eurocopter did win a DOD contract recently, but that program didn't have political visibility before the award.

Airbus would have some chance if the DOD favored the KC330 sufficiently that it would go to bat for it in Congress. The DOD is very careful though on how it spends its political capitol.
 
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:11 pm

Quoting JayinKitsap (Reply 21):
yes I think the US congress sees Airbus and EADS as French controlled, and I think feels that the EU is also a French leaning institution

Many in the US and in Congress actually feel the EU is French CONTROLLED.

Apoligies to our German, Dutch, Spainish, Italian, Greek, Polish, Finnish, Norwegion, and Swedish friends.

Oh, did I leave out the Swiss?  bigthumbsup 
 
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:09 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 22):
Quoting JayinKitsap (Reply 21):
yes I think the US congress sees Airbus and EADS as French controlled, and I think feels that the EU is also a French leaning institution

Many in the US and in Congress actually feel the EU is French CONTROLLED.

Apoligies to our German, Dutch, Spainish, Italian, Greek, Polish, Finnish, Norwegion, and Swedish friends.

Large parts of the EU system ideologically ARE controlled by France and Germany. For instance some economists (inc myself) believe that joining the Euro may not have been such a good idea for Ireland. Several years ago the Irish Govt wanted to stem growth in the economy by raising interest rates. On the other hand, the Germans French wanted to stimulate economic activity's for many reasons such as unemployment. Well you can guess who the ECB acted in favour of.
 
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:22 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 9):
My understanding is that fuselage sections, wings, etc. will be built in Europe as now but actual airframe assembly will be in Mobile.

Shipping these components by ship will add a lot to the cost, in both time and money, to the KC-30.

That "plant" in Alabama will be the biggest Potemkin Village since...well, since Potemkin first got the idea.

Here's what I think will happen if the KC30 goes ahead. The first few airplanes will be 'final assembled' in Toulouse so as to 'train' the new worker bees. Then someone will 'discover' that they can actually be assembled and ferried a lot cheaper than freighting the parts to Alabama and assembling them there. That is because the people who actually build the A330 know the job pretty well and have all the kinks worked out of the build process. Then what'll happen is that they'll be ferried to Alabama for paint jobs and installation of the air tanker gear and avionics. The whole idea of actually assembling a modified A330 in the US will die of neglect.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 23):
Large parts of the EU system ideologically ARE controlled by France and Germany. For instance some economists (inc myself) believe that joining the Euro may not have been such a good idea for Ireland. Several years ago the Irish Govt wanted to stem growth in the economy by raising interest rates. On the other hand, the Germans French wanted to stimulate economic activity's for many reasons such as unemployment. Well you can guess who the ECB acted in favour of.

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F27Friendship
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:29 am

yippiekayee! the zillionth KC-X thread has arrived!  crossfingers 

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Thread starter):
Food for thought. Our European allies haven't taken kindly to our invasion of Iraq and that's been a sore spot where relations with the United States are concerned. I have to wonder if the selection of the KC-330, as part of the overall tanker package, might not be an attempt to mend political fences. It definitely would give the Europeans cause to look at the US in a somewhat more positive light.

I've been on this forum for one month now, and I guess I can already formulate a mission statement for myself:

"Educate the visitors of this website that Europe does not equal France and vice-versa".

There are 27 countries in the EU, and several more European countries that are not in the EU. Several of these countries DID support the US (I'm not saying if that;s a good thing, merely stating facts here). Among them are the UK, Spain, Poland and the Netherlands.

The French are only about 10% of all Europeans... (rough estimate here) PLEASE REMEMBER THIS!

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 22):
Many in the US and in Congress actually feel the EU is French CONTROLLED.

Apoligies to our German, Dutch, Spainish, Italian, Greek, Polish, Finnish, Norwegion, and Swedish friends.

Oh, did I leave out the Swiss?

Norway is not part of the EU, nor are the Swiss (they only recently considered membership of the UN!) Nevertheless, I would agree that France profits a little bit more from the EU than most countries, the EU is hardly something which you can compare to the US. Every country runs their own show. Foreign affairs are a strictly national issue (which is something that a lot of countries want to change, but in Referenda, the French and Dutch rejected this)

Quoting EI321 (Reply 23):
Large parts of the EU system ideologically ARE controlled by France and Germany. For instance some economists (inc myself) believe that joining the Euro may not have been such a good idea for Ireland. Several years ago the Irish Govt wanted to stem growth in the economy by raising interest rates. On the other hand, the Germans French wanted to stimulate economic activity's for many reasons such as unemployment. Well you can guess who the ECB acted in favour of.

Ireland is currently the wealthiest country in the EU and has the best performing economy..

About the suggested statement in the thread-start: where did you get this theory from? It doesn't make any sense. These things only happen when the dialog is assymetric, for example a country like Malta or Croatia buying Airbusses for their airliners, as they aspire EU membership, (which Malta got, and Croatia soon will) and Israel only buying Boeings since they get so much support from the US.
 
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:11 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 5):
Didn't Airbus offer to open a final assembly in the US if the order is large enough? I think so ...



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
They have said that in the press, IIRC. But, that is not what Northrupt has said.

BTW, I listened to a podcast featuring Mr. Mike Belote, media relations director for Northrup Grumman. He stated that if N-G/EADS won the tanker competition, then there was a possibility of production in the U.S. "at some point". When pressed, he would not provide more details. Unfortunately, I can't provide a link. It's from the IAG "Blackprogram", subscription only.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
Devilfish
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:01 am

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 25):
yippiekayee! the zillionth KC-X thread has arrived!

A long time ago!  Smile

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 25):
I've been on this forum for one month now,

And this thread for more than ten months.  Wink

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 25):
These things only happen when the dialog is assymetric, for example a country like Malta or Croatia buying Airbusses for their airliners, as they aspire EU membership, (which Malta got, and Croatia soon will)

Is this why Turkey couldn't get in - because they buy most of their hardware from the US? I suppose one second-hand presidential plane.....

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.....and Turkish Airlines' fleet are too few to gain admittance.....

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It seems the French president is the strongest oppositor to its joining.
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F27Friendship
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:21 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 27):
Is this why Turkey couldn't get in - because they buy most of their hardware from the US? I suppose one second-hand presidential plane.....

LOL! don't take my words out of context Big grin I was merely referring to a situtation when someone would buy a certain type of plane for political goodwill  Wink
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:52 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 24):
Here's what I think will happen if the KC30 goes ahead. The first few airplanes will be 'final assembled' in Toulouse so as to 'train' the new worker bees. Then someone will 'discover' that they can actually be assembled and ferried a lot cheaper than freighting the parts to Alabama and assembling them there. That is because the people who actually build the A330 know the job pretty well and have all the kinks worked out of the build process. Then what'll happen is that they'll be ferried to Alabama for paint jobs and installation of the air tanker gear and avionics. The whole idea of actually assembling a modified A330 in the US will die of neglect.

Yet, there is a constant stream of "wispers" that Airbus wants to open the line in the US regardless for civilian poduction to reduce costs.

I think they will get kicked in the nuts by the unions everytime they mention it as a remote possiblity though. Miliary production is more likely, but you have a good point that its easer to go "oops, you can have your price or your american assembly line, but not both" after the USAF has 20-30 in hand
 
PADSpot
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:12 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 24):
Here's what I think will happen if the KC30 goes ahead. The first few airplanes will be 'final assembled' in Toulouse so as to 'train' the new worker bees. Then someone will 'discover' that they can actually be assembled and ferried a lot cheaper than freighting the parts to Alabama and assembling them there. That is because the people who actually build the A330 know the job pretty well and have all the kinks worked out of the build process. Then what'll happen is that they'll be ferried to Alabama for paint jobs and installation of the air tanker gear and avionics. The whole idea of actually assembling a modified A330 in the US will die of neglect.

IF (Big IF) the KC-30 goes ahead, the place of manufacture and the extent as well as type of local content will be part of the purchase contract. There is no chance that that US production, in case it is agreed upon, will "die of neglect". The margin is thin anyway for Airbus, they just cannot afford to get into legal conflicts with the customer. Your argument looks somewhat fabricated to me, to be honest.
 
Lumberton
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:33 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 29):
Yet, there is a constant stream of "wispers" that Airbus wants to open the line in the US regardless for civilian poduction to reduce costs

That would be a nice inducement, a significant offset in the way of all A330 production being sourced in the U.S. by 2010, a nice share--say 20%--in the A350 program, and of course renouncing all RLI or launch aid. Yes, I think that would form the basis for negotiations to go forward.  duck 

The next day, world peace would break out.
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Dougloid
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:48 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 30):
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 24):
Here's what I think will happen if the KC30 goes ahead. The first few airplanes will be 'final assembled' in Toulouse so as to 'train' the new worker bees. Then someone will 'discover' that they can actually be assembled and ferried a lot cheaper than freighting the parts to Alabama and assembling them there. That is because the people who actually build the A330 know the job pretty well and have all the kinks worked out of the build process. Then what'll happen is that they'll be ferried to Alabama for paint jobs and installation of the air tanker gear and avionics. The whole idea of actually assembling a modified A330 in the US will die of neglect.

IF (Big IF) the KC-30 goes ahead, the place of manufacture and the extent as well as type of local content will be part of the purchase contract. There is no chance that that US production, in case it is agreed upon, will "die of neglect". The margin is thin anyway for Airbus, they just cannot afford to get into legal conflicts with the customer. Your argument looks somewhat fabricated to me, to be honest.

To be honest, why do you think it's fabricated?

What did mother tell you? Follow the money, that's what she told you.

There's abolutely no reason to jack the price of the ship up by thirty per cent by shipping things that can be assembled in France to the US to be assembled in the US. That makes the product less competitive than it already is.

So nobody's going to do it. Ain't gonna happen. It's a dead issue.

Beat me. Please.


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AirRyan
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:14 am

Read an article today that the FAA is adding an A-330 simulator at their HQ in Oklahoma City; Airbus has a nice maintenance facility in Lake Charles, Louisana - who runs that place?
 
texl1649
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:37 am

It's not like Airbus is going to be busy building A330s past a certain point in the 5-10 year future anyway (NOT A FLAME: I am just saying that the A330 will be replaced in production and sales by the largely new A350, and, yeah, some plane being built in Washington right now). Slow-producing 330-frames stateside might not be the worst idea to Airbus, or Northrop for that matter.
 
PADSpot
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:47 pm

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 32):
To be honest, why do you think it's fabricated?

Its fabricated because the situation you project, namely that Airbus would step back from a US production once they have made some progress into the project, can technically not occur. They would be legally bound to it. They had to make themselves clear about the sustainability of the business case BEFORE they sign anything.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 32):
There's abolutely no reason to jack the price of the ship up by thirty per cent by shipping things that can be assembled in France to the US to be assembled in the US. That makes the product less competitive than it already is.

They had to ramp up final assembly capacities in any case as A330s are almost sold out until production ceases. In order to become more independent from the dollar in general, it would be strategically wise to open the Mobile plant instead of building another A330F/KC-30 line in France. France and Germany would get they stake in the business by ramped up component production capacities. I don't know where you take those 30% from, but transportation costs are more or less negligible. Employing people on a dollar-basis is also much cheaper at the moment and probably for the foresseable future. Costs for setting up the assembly line should also be comparable, no matter if you do it in France or in the US.

Strategically I would go as far to say that if they get the Tanker contract, chances are good that the entire A330F is assembled in Mobile.
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:25 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 35):
Strategically I would go as far to say that if they get the Tanker contract, chances are good that the entire A330F is assembled in Mobile.

I think that would be a very good development for airbus!
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:24 pm

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 9):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
Doesn't the proposal call for the A-330F to be built in Europe, then flown to MOB and modified into tankers and redesignated as the KC-30?

My understanding is that fuselage sections, wings, etc. will be built in Europe as now but actual airframe assembly will be in Mobile.

EADS is already building an engineering center at Brookley that will be opening in a few months.

EADS will build the basic A-330-200F airplane in France, it will be flight tested in France, then flown to MOB to be painted and the tanker equipment added. NG will only have a work force of 1000 people in MOB working on the KC-30A project, that is not near enough for assembly of any large airplane. MOB will be essentially a paint shop.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 25):
"Educate the visitors of this website that Europe does not equal France and vice-versa".

That is a very steep hill to climb.
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:40 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 37):
EADS will build the basic A-330-200F airplane in France, it will be flight tested in France, then flown to MOB to be painted and the tanker equipment added. NG will only have a work force of 1000 people in MOB working on the KC-30A project, that is not near enough for assembly of any large airplane. MOB will be essentially a paint shop.

There have been different stories on this one. Perhaps things have changed?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 37):
That is a very steep hill to climb.

I like a challenge  Wink
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:59 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 26):
BTW, I listened to a podcast featuring Mr. Mike Belote, media relations director for Northrup Grumman. He stated that if N-G/EADS won the tanker competition, then there was a possibility of production in the U.S. "at some point".



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 38):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 37):
EADS will build the basic A-330-200F airplane in France, it will be flight tested in France, then flown to MOB to be painted and the tanker equipment added. NG will only have a work force of 1000 people in MOB working on the KC-30A project, that is not near enough for assembly of any large airplane. MOB will be essentially a paint shop.

There have been different stories on this one. Perhaps things have changed?

I think Mr. Belote's statement really says it all. The key words in his remarks are "possibility of production" and "at some point". Now there is a commitment/promise those NG employees at MOB can hang onto.

I believe that, should NG/EADS win the KC-X contract, all 179 airplanes will be built in France and flown to MOB for the tanker modifications and final painting.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 37):
Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 25):
"Educate the visitors of this website that Europe does not equal France and vice-versa".

That is a very steep hill to climb.



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 38):
I like a challenge

Why is it Americans need the education, and not the Europeans? It seems to me that twice in the last 100 years, Americans have spilled their own blood because Europeans could not get along. Then after the second event (we like to call it WWII), we rebuilt the European Contenent.

Opps, sorry, I'm not suppose to mention that. Me bad.
 
greggarious
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:10 am

I think that the question begs to be asked: Which tanker would prove to be more capable for the USAF? The KC-767 or the KC-30? There's a huge amound of background noise regarding the subject, but I haven't really heard an answer to the most important question of all. Can anyone help?
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:29 am

Quoting Greggarious (Reply 40):
I think that the question begs to be asked: Which tanker would prove to be more capable for the USAF? The KC-767 or the KC-30?

The USAF strike tactics are built around the KC-135, a medium size tanker (maximumize the number of booms in the air). Since the B-767 is closer in size and capability to the KC-135 than the KC-30 is, I would say it is the KC-767.
 
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zeke
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:46 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
Doesn't the proposal call for the A-330F to be built in Europe, then flown to MOB and modified into tankers and redesignated as the KC-30? True, there will still be a lot of US content in the KC-30, but it will still have the basic airplane assembled in France.

No, the aircraft will be assembled in the USA.

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 9):
My understanding is that fuselage sections, wings, etc. will be built in Europe as now but actual airframe assembly will be in Mobile.

Correct, kind of, not all of the 330 is built in Europe, its built at plants around the world, and some of it by Boeing.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):

Shipping these components by ship will add a lot to the cost, in both time and money, to the KC-30.

Incorrect

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 24):

Here's what I think will happen if the KC30 goes ahead. The first few airplanes will be 'final assembled' in Toulouse so as to 'train' the new worker bees. Then someone will 'discover' that they can actually be assembled and ferried a lot cheaper than freighting the parts to Alabama and assembling them there. That is because the people who actually build the A330 know the job pretty well and have all the kinks worked out of the build process. Then what'll happen is that they'll be ferried to Alabama for paint jobs and installation of the air tanker gear and avionics. The whole idea of actually assembling a modified A330 in the US will die of neglect.

Have a look at the way the hawk and F/A-18 were built in Australia, one from Europe, one from USA, both were assembled in Australia as part of the condition of the contract for local content.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 37):

EADS will build the basic A-330-200F airplane in France, it will be flight tested in France, then flown to MOB to be painted and the tanker equipment added. NG will only have a work force of 1000 people in MOB working on the KC-30A project, that is not near enough for assembly of any large airplane. MOB will be essentially a paint shop.

No, the aircraft will be assembled in the USA.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
Lumberton
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:04 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 42):
No, the aircraft will be assembled in the USA.

First I heard of this. Do you have a source? AFAIK, EADS through their U.S. partner is mulling the eventual sourcing of production here, but no commitments have been made.

As for "assembly", that could be slapping on a boom and wiring a few electronics packages, a trip to the paint booth, and putting on the decals, but the vast majority of the aircraft would still be "asembled" in Toulouse. How else would it get to Mobile, Alabama?

[Edited 2007-08-16 20:07:26]
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
Dougloid
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:02 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 42):
No, the aircraft will be assembled in the USA.

I'll believe that when I see it.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
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zeke
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:21 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 43):

First I heard of this. Do you have a source? AFAIK, EADS through their U.S. partner is mulling the eventual sourcing of production here, but no commitments have been made.

Yes been in many many press releases....e.g. http://www.northropgrumman.com/kc30/media_center/data/KC30_Alabama.pdf

"The KC-30 Tanker aircraft will be assembled in Mobile, Ala., and the KC-30 team will employ 25,000 American workers at 230 U.S. companies. It will be built by a world-class industrial team led by Northrop Grumman, and includes EADS North America, General Electric Aviation and Sargent Fletcher."

Also watch the KC30 video below as well, you can see how they truck in the subassumblies into the factory and talk about how the parts will arrive by ship.

And to clarify assembly, this is the A330-MRTT assembly which would be mirrored in the USA. http://www.northropgrumman.com/kc30/video/Airbus_Timelapse_256kbps.asf

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 44):

I'll believe that when I see it.

Here you go.....explains it all to you so you can see it ...... http://www.northropgrumman.com/kc30/video/kc30.wmv
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
bigjku
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:49 am

http://www.governmentexecutive.com/s...icleid=36554&printerfriendlyvers=1

Food for thought

"On any given mission, where you want to take the cargo is not where you need to take the fuel," said Loren Thompson, an analyst at the Lexington Institute, a defense think tank, who is also a Lockheed Martin consultant (although not involved in the aircraft programs discussed in this article). Even the current KC-135 has some cargo capacity, but in practice, demand for tankers is so high that the plane is rarely used as a dry-cargo transport."

"A study by Thompson and colleague Rebecca Grant showed that KC-135s usually returned to base with fuel to spare: The average fuel offloaded per tanker per flight ranged from under 50,000 pounds in the 1991 Persian Gulf War and the 1999 Kosovo conflict -- in which the combat planes' targets were relatively close to their bases -- to 60,000 pounds in the 2003 invasion of Iraq, and 75,000 in the 2001-02 invasion of Afghanistan, where the targets were far from U.S. airfields."

"All of these figures are handily within the 200,000 pound capacity of the current KC-135 and Boeing's proposed KC-767, even after accounting for the tanker's own fuel needs. In this context, the Northrop KC-30's 250,000 pounds of fuel just looks like overkill."

Those are the three big problems with the KC-30 vs the KC-767.
 
texfly101
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:54 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
The attititude of the French can not be changed by trade or dollars.

Nicely put and so true. Trade only goes so far with the French. Their attitude is one of profit for France, not service to the US.
Lets face it, the KC-30 is only an attempt to penetrate the US defense market to keep Airbus viable as an economic entity in the aerospace industry. They have stated that in bold plain English. Why? Because the European market is not big enough. Until Airbus is divorced from being a politically directed entity, it will serve at the behest of their masters, the French government. I, for one, do not feel it is in the best interests of our military and fighting forces to put anyone in the military at the mercy of a foreign government. This is not to say that I don't like the French, only that our national interests are best served by national firms that have a vested interest in serving the US government.
I, for one, would be very irate if our government chose to give this contract to Airbus. I would hazard a guess that the normal voting citizen would consider the same. The pols know this. Try and pitch the KC-30 in terms of best value, larger cargo capability, etc will only fall on deaf ears of the public that has no interests in the technical aspects of airplanes and will only hear that the French were given billions of dollars and that American jobs were denied. That is the 30 second sound bite that will be heard if that happened. So no way Jose will that be taken in any positive manner by the voting public. Its death to any politician not from the state of Alabama to agree to the KC-30. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
 
Lumberton
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:30 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 45):
Yes been in many many press releases....e.g. http://www.northropgrumman.com/kc30/media_center/data/KC30_Alabama.pdf

"The KC-30 Tanker aircraft will be assembled in Mobile, Ala., and the KC-30 team will employ 25,000 American workers at 230 U.S. companies. It will be built by a world-class industrial team led by Northrop Grumman, and includes EADS North America, General Electric Aviation and Sargent Fletcher."

Also watch the KC30 video below as well, you can see how they truck in the subassumblies into the factory and talk about how the parts will arrive by ship.

Good stuff, Zeke. Thanks for providing it. I wonder at what point in the process this would happen in Mobile?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
AirRyan
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RE: Politics And The KC330

Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:58 am

Quoting Greggarious (Reply 40):
I think that the question begs to be asked: Which tanker would prove to be more capable for the USAF? The KC-767 or the KC-30? There's a huge amound of background noise regarding the subject, but I haven't really heard an answer to the most important question of all. Can anyone help?

A lot of variable there, with prices/operating costs being a big variable. The real reason as to why Boeing is playing down the cargo capability is because that capability would directly take away from any future C-17 sales.

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 46):
Those are the three big problems with the KC-30 vs the KC-767.

OR... there were too many "booms" in the theater and/or they didn't plan well enough! I'm just throwing it out there!  crazy 

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