Devilfish
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First Embraer "Air Force One"?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:17 am

There had been some speculations in previous threads on whether Embraer would offer a VIP version of its E170 airliner. They did early on floated the idea, but so far, only the Lineage 1000 is actively marketed as a business jet and no order for it yet is reflected in their Executive Aviation summary.

However, the June 30, 2006 Orderbook on their website lists two (2) firm Defense Market orders for E170s. The footnote indicates that those are for "government authority transportation." Embraer is unusually silent about these orders, but if not executive/shuttle types, might one of the two be the first Embraer "Air Force One" destined for a relatively smaller country's Head of State?

http://www.embraer.com/ri/english/co.../destaques/pedidos_em_carteira.asp

The range wouldn't be ideal at first glance, but with just 8 to 12 passengers or so and baggage, it could well be viable and good enough for regional trips. What do you think - who could it be?
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
PADSpot
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RE: First Embraer "Air Force One"?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:03 pm

I think most people in the 8-12pax class would refer to a Gulfstream, GlobalExpress or FalconJet 7X, mainly because they have 1000-1300nm more range. The Lineage 1000 is surely a beautiful plane and size- wise neatly fits between a A318 Elite and a GlobalExpress, that gives it its USP finally ...
 
Devilfish
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RE: First Embraer "Air Force One"?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:02 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 1):
I think most people in the 8-12pax class would refer to a Gulfstream, GlobalExpress or FalconJet 7X, mainly because they have 1000-1300nm more range.

Common practice now in VVIP aircraft is to provide for continuous conduct of state affairs even while in transit. This dictates separate office, conference, lounge and sleeping areas - aside from lavs and galley. The E170 meets those requirements at a very competitive price against the pure business jets - in which those will hardly fit. The range could be increased by adding fuel cells or tanks in unused belly space.

The Lineage 1000 is already almost as big (maybe not in interior volume) as the A318 and already approaches it in price.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
PADSpot
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RE: First Embraer "Air Force One"?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:18 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 2):
This dictates separate office, conference, lounge and sleeping areas - aside from lavs and galley.

That was my statement in the neighboring thread about the new German Government airplanes. I argued there that you cannot even squeeze that into a A319 ACJ. Head of states aren't travelling alone, how do you put 20-30 people and all that interior stuff into an E170???  crowded 
 
Devilfish
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RE: First Embraer "Air Force One"?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:28 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 3):
I argued there that you cannot even squeeze that into a A319 ACJ.

But you can, and quite easily as shown in these Airbus interior schemes.....

http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfamilies/acj/cabin_interior.html

http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfam...terior_customized_environment.html

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 3):
how do you put 20-30 people and all that interior stuff into an E170???

You don't. You just take your most important people (only key people you need for a particular trip) and have less essential staff and hangers-on take commercial flights.

It can be worked out from Embraer's Lineage 1000 cabin layout below - delete excess seating areas and replan to fit the E170's cabin lenght.

http://www.embraerexecutivejets.com/...age1000.asp?strLink=configurations

[Edited 2006-10-04 19:31:34]
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
PADSpot
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RE: First Embraer "Air Force One"?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:23 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 4):

You don't. You just take your most important people (only key people you need for a particular trip) and have less essential staff and hangers-on take commercial flights.

There is a song from German band Tocotronic called "The idea is good, but the world ain't ready yet."  Wink That is just not how it works in government travel, because the highest in rank on the airplanes decides who's important.

Lets say the head of state of a medium important country like ... ehhmm ... Denmark decides to make a 3 day visit to the US. Denmark might be a country for which most people would consider a Lineage 1000 as "appropriate".

Then you have the Head of State + secretary + assistant, at least one further minister + secretary + asisstant and 3 further staff people for organization, preparation and stuff. The delegation might have 10 different appointments and for almost each of them they have one responsible consultant/speaker what so ever. Let's say 8 people. Than add 6 journalists, 6 business people and 4 security personnel onboard (the remainder is already in the US).

That makes 33 people, who all want to sit business-class like, want to meet the President onboard and so on. AND THEN ... add all the interior. That just doesn't fit!

An Lineage 1000 might be appropriate as an "Air Force Two" for foreign ministers and people of that sort. But it is way to small for presidental travel as long we are not talking about Nepal, Cambodia or Burkina Faso.

BTW: When Chirac travels for more than just a day or two, his A319 is mostly accompanied by an A310 at least.
 
Devilfish
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RE: First Embraer "Air Force One"?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:56 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 5):
That is just not how it works in government travel, because the highest in rank on the airplanes decides who's important.

Who do you think the "you" is in this?.....

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 4):
You just take your most important people



Quoting PADSpot (Reply 5):
Then you have the Head of State + secretary + assistant, at least one further minister + secretary + asisstant and 3 further staff people for organization, preparation and stuff. Then add..... 4 security personnel onboard

The above composition is fine, and could still be expanded to 16 if need be.

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 5):
10 different appointments and for almost each of them they have one responsible consultant/speaker what so ever. Let's say 8 people. Than add 6 journalists, 6 business people

These can travel separately, or 4 businessmen/consultant/speaker added/substituted for the contingency load of 16.

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 5):
who all want to sit business-class like, want to meet the President onboard and so on. AND THEN ... add all the interior.

16 can sit business-class like with plenty of room to spare. And you don't add the "interior" - you occupy it. It is a given that on such trips, if there's more space, it will be filled.

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 5):

That makes 33 people,..... That just doesn't fit!

As long as you insist on having that many onboard, then it will really be tight. But then, how could you suggest Gulfstream, Global Express or Falcon 7x?

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 5):
An Lineage 1000 might be appropriate as an "Air Force Two" for foreign ministers and people of that sort. But it is way to small for presidental travel as long we are not talking about Nepal, Cambodia or Burkina Faso.

You forget that there is a qualifier.....

Quoting DEVILFISH (Thread starter):
destined for a relatively smaller country's Head of State?

And by that I wasn't imagining Denmark, whose economy I think merits at least an Elite.

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 5):
BTW: When Chirac travels for more than just a day or two, his A319 is mostly accompanied by an A310 at least.

Rest assured that my suspects are an order of magnitude less powerful and rich than France and would require much, much smaller entourage. Should influential people want to tag along, then they could charter their own way, use their private jets, or fund the purchase of a bigger transport - as E170 is all the Government could afford. And heck, we're not even sure if the two firm orders are really for this purpose or wouldn't get cancelled like the other E170s  Smile
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
prebennorholm
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RE: First Embraer "Air Force One"?

Fri Oct 06, 2006 6:35 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 5):
Lets say the head of state of a medium important country like ... ehhmm ... Denmark decides to make a 3 day visit to the US. Denmark might be a country for which most people would consider a Lineage 1000 as "appropriate".

...a medium important country like ... ehhmm ... Denmark... Denmark is absolutely the most important country in the world.  Wink

We have three almost new Challergers - combined sea patrol and VIP planes. So we are not buying anything like that for the next many years.

As VIP planes they are only used within Europe. For longer distances our VIPs use scheduled airliners. maybe our Queen, our prime minister and such don't regard themselves so very important persons?
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
PADSpot
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RE: First Embraer "Air Force One"?

Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:55 pm

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 7):

...a medium important country like ... ehhmm ... Denmark... Denmark is absolutely the most important country in the world. Wink

 duck   bigthumbsup 

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 7):
We have three almost new Challergers - combined sea patrol and VIP planes. So we are not buying anything like that for the next many years.

I just tried to construct a realistic example. You were just the "victim". No bad feelings, pls!

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