papoose
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Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:16 am

I don't know if somebody has already spoken about this:

USMC looks to revive OV-10s for use in Iraq
BY: Joshua Kucera, Jane's Defence Weekly*
04/12/2006

http://aimpoints.hq.af.mil/display.cfm?id=10607&printer=yes

I don't have found nothing searching the forum.

Since the article is six month old, is there any news about this very intriguing topic.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:50 am

Another aircraft in the category of the A-10. Low 5's on attractiveness, high 9's on effectiveness.


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Good idea though IMO.
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Devilfish
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:57 am

Quote:
"We've got dozens of systems operating over there but there's a big logjam in the [intelligence] pipeline, and everyone knows it."


It certainly won't do acknowledging the effectiveness of boneyard relics when there are billion $ being spent on "state-of-the-art" and "leading-edge" ISR platforms. Besides, battlefield commanders would think several times before committing such high-value assets in high-attrition environments.

Makes one wonder what is more dispensable in their view.
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TedTAce
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Sun Oct 15, 2006 2:45 am

OV-010. Probably the only prop airplane I'd LIKE to own instead of a jet.
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Spacepope
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Sun Oct 15, 2006 2:51 am

I love the OV-10, however besides weapons payload, what exactly does the OV-10 bring to the table that a Predator or two can't?
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L-188
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:04 am

Quoting Papoose (Thread starter):
USMC looks to revive OV-10s for use in Iraq

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it...Amazing how all the lessons about troop support learned in Vietnam have been forgotten. It is an old enough article I wonder if it happened or happening.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 2):
It certainly won't do acknowledging the effectiveness of boneyard relics when there are billion $ being spent on "state-of-the-art" and "leading-edge" ISR platforms. Besides, battlefield commanders would think several times before committing such high-value assets in high-attrition environments.

The irony is striking.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 3):
I love the OV-10, however besides weapons payload, what exactly does the OV-10 bring to the table that a Predator or two can't?

Fly low, decend itself, carrry a small cargo load, and I am pretty sure the weapons load is heavier.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:06 am

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 1):
Another aircraft in the category of the A-10.

Well, not exactly. The OV-10 is a great airplane, but it certinetly is not in the same category as the A/OA-10.

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 4):
I love the OV-10, however besides weapons payload, what exactly does the OV-10 bring to the table that a Predator or two can't?

An exposed flight crew.
 
AirRyan
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:01 am

I always thought the Marines were the ones who should have been flying the A-10 even if they couldn't get it on deck of an amphib assault carrier...



Screw the OV-10, bring back the Corsair to the tune of the F2G or some new turbine powered example!

http://www.air-and-space.com/20060521%20Chino/DSC_6300%20F4U-1A%20NX83782%20F2G-1%20N5588N%2057%20right%20side%20in%20flight%20l.jpg

F7F Tigercat

http://www.air-and-space.com/20060521%20Chino/DSC_6215%20F7F-3N%20N805MB%20Big%20Bossman%20left%20side%20taxiing%20l.jpg


AD-6 Skyraider

 
papoose
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:21 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 7):
always thought the Marines were the ones who should have been flying the A-10 even if they couldn't get it on deck of an amphib assault carrier...

Me too, but when it enters service was the US Army in Europe that had need.

I think that when the Marines put their boots in some place, they would prefer to have the warthog over their head intsead of the AV-8.
I'm wrong?
 
dl021
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:39 am

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 1):
Another aircraft in the category of the A-10. Low 5's on attractiveness, high 9's on effectiveness.

The problem with the OV-10s in Iraq back in 1991 was that they were fairly easy targets for MANPADS and the squadron commander of the Marine Reserve OV-10 sqn from NAS Atlanta even got shot down. They are useful when they are able to fly at low levels outside of useful machine gun range, but they can't fly above missile range, nor can they outrun a Strela or anything else.

They are tough airplanes and if used correctly they are excellent spotting/patrol airplanes as long as we're willing to take casualties. We're really not willing to do that. The only reason they were armed during Vietnam was that the Destroyers got worn out and there was not yet a real attack helo until the Snake came online.

An armed OV-10 is better than an unarmed 0V-10, but not much better than anything else available. UAV's can do the spotting job better for less casualties and they can also carry weapons for precision attacks. If we're going to bring back old airplanes for ground attack, let's bring back the Scooters and really do some damage....4 20mm cannon plus the bomb load....speed and maneuverability. They're sitting in the desert waiting to be cannibalized or scrapped...but they work. THey'd be perfect for this job.

Quoting Papoose (Reply 8):
I think that when the Marines put their boots in some place, they would prefer to have the warthog over their head intsead of the AV-8.
I'm wrong?

Probably, but it's a moot point since it's not designed to operate off of carriers. The AV-8B+ is capable of amphibious operations and is the right tool for that mission. Joint operability allows the Marines to have USAF air on call when available and needed.
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:50 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
Another aircraft in the category of the A-10.

Well, not exactly. The OV-10 is a great airplane, but it certinetly is not in the same category as the A/OA-10.

I was referring to the OV-10 and A-10's "beauty".  slaphappy 
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:54 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
An exposed flight crew.

That's exactly what I was getting at...

Quoting DL021 (Reply 9):
let's bring back the Scooters and really do some damage....4 20mm cannon plus the bomb load....speed and maneuverability

A-4s only had 2 20mm cannon internally. Did they carry a supplemental cannon pod?

I like that idea better than the OV-10, maybe we can borrow a few from Argentina!


Is the MANPAD threat in Iraq really so great today? One would think if it were, there would be a lot fewer helis US, coalition and contractor) operating there.
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FBU 4EVER!
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:11 am

OV-10's were great planes when invented,even during their early operational carreer.They were overtaken by armed helos and almost everything else,unfortunately. Nowadays,they make excellent warbirds in civilian hands,though
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Devilfish
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:56 am

Quoting FBU 4EVER! (Reply 12):
Nowadays,they make excellent warbirds in civilian hands,though

They are still proving their worth in my country's south against the Abu Sayyaf. Admittedly, they are all the PAF could afford (military aid), as even A.net does not have the Philippine Air Force on its list when you do a photo search.  Sad They list Papua New Guinea though, but no photos.


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TedTAce
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:06 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):
Quoting TedTAce (Reply 3):
I love the OV-10, however besides weapons payload, what exactly does the OV-10 bring to the table that a Predator or two can't?

Fly low, decend itself, carrry a small cargo load, and I am pretty sure the weapons load is heavier.

thanks for the mis-quote; I think you meant:

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 4):
I love the OV-10, however besides weapons payload, what exactly does the OV-10 bring to the table that a Predator or two can't?

And I agree; why send a man in to do what a machine can do better?
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kc135topboom
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:08 pm

What would be even more effective for the Marines would be a version of the USAF RQ-1A/B Predator carrying either 2 20mm cannons, or 1 30mm cannon (from the A-10), instead of Hellfires. Isn't the USAF now flight testing the RQ-9A Preditor II that is a larger version of the RQ-1 that carries some 4X the RQ-1's payload?
 
jwenting
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:15 pm

The OV-10 can carry small strike force in back, could be handy at times.

The tendency to use machines for everything is part of the problem the US armed forces have today, they've become TOO reliant on technology.
In a low intensity conflict it's often better to have a man on the ground with eyes and ears than an eye in the sky.
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MigFan
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:50 pm

Bring the OV-10 back!!! That would be great.

The A-10 will never be flown by a US Army pilot, just as an AH-64 will never see USAF service. Military politics.

The idea of a turboprop, WWII-style FAC aircraft is not totally new. They tried...


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LimaNiner
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Mon Oct 16, 2006 6:50 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 15):
Predator carrying either 2 20mm cannons, or 1 30mm cannon (from the A-10), instead of Hellfires

The GAU-8 weighs 1,830kg, but the RQ-9/MQ-9 has a payload of about 1,700kg. I imagine that the sensor package takes up a good chunk of that payload, so even if it were possible to shave a couple hundred kgs in weight off the GAU-8, it'd be a really tight fit at best...

Also, the GAU-8 has some serious kick! Its recoil force is 9,000 lb. I seem to remember reading somewhere once that the recoil is so strong that a prolonged burst of fire can actually slow down an A-10! (I don't have a quote for that, though, so it could be 100% bogus -- sorry.)

I don't know how well the RQ-9/MQ-9's frame could deal with such a strong kick -- it kinda seems like you'd be giving a .454 Casull to a 2-year-old kid to fire...

I'd sure love to see video of a GAU-8-armed MQ-9, though!  Smile
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:18 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 9):
If we're going to bring back old airplanes for ground attack, let's bring back the Scooters and really do some damage

I'm with you....John McCain would be proud to see the day.

DeltaGuy
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:49 pm

Quoting LimaNiner (Reply 18):
I seem to remember reading somewhere once that the recoil is so strong that a prolonged burst of fire can actually slow down an A-10!

I've heard this as well. In addition, the amount of heat generated during firing would melt the gun if it were not limited to short bursts.
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Devilfish
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Thu Oct 19, 2006 12:40 pm

Quoting MigFan (Reply 17):
The idea of a turboprop, WWII-style FAC aircraft is not totally new. They tried...

And it looks like they're trying again...and hard!

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...+aircraft+quietly+makes+first.html
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dl021
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:46 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 16):
The OV-10 can carry small strike force in back

The ability of the OV-10 to carry personnel is very limited to say the least. Two OV-10s can carry a 6 man LRS team on a jump, but it's not in any way convenient or safe. The pilot is the jumpmaster, and unless that guy really knows what he's doing as regards parachuting it can suck.

As far as taking troops in by airlanding it's pointless, because there are other more practical aircraft for that purpose.

The stated purpose of oil pipeline surveillance is probably a useful one for the OV-10, as long as they travel in pairs and conduct armed overwatch for each other.
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TedTAce
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:33 pm

Quoting LimaNiner (Reply 18):
I seem to remember reading somewhere once that the recoil is so strong that a prolonged burst of fire can actually slow down an A-10! (I don't have a quote for that, though, so it could be 100% bogus -- sorry.)

I have heard this too, namely an issue when flying @ MCA. I recall stories of gun firing induced stalls. I also heard of gun exhaust flame outs.. Which lead to the fixed inboard slats.
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kc135topboom
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:41 pm

Wouldn't the former USAF/USN A-1Es make more sense? They carried a hell of a lot more ordanace than former USAF/USMC two OV-10A/Ds could.
 
mandala499
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:44 pm

OV10s? My fav COIN aircraft!
In my opinion, it'll do a good COIN mission as good as if not better than the predator.

A-1s was another mean machine... but piston engined... radial too!  Sad But a mean look nonetheless... besides, not good visibility...

The A-10 is primarily a tank buster...
The OV10 is a "classical meatmincer"... It's designed to pin down troops or make them run, and fast swooping low passes with guns blazing (Hollywood stuff eh?)... damn effective against guerillas. It's a cheap platform too comparing with the jets...

The Scooter? Now that's a GOOD all rounder for light attack/fast observation...

OV10s and A-4s were to be retired years back, replaced by Hawk100/200s, but they proved so effective (and cost effective) that we kept them till today (they had better battle effectiveness in Aceh and Timor comparing with Hawks). These planes in my opinion are excellent for pounding soft and "low value" targets ("pest control" as one officer put it).

Now, anyone want the OV-4 Mohawks back instead? LOL

Mandala499
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atct
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:27 am

Yea if you could revamp the Mohawk that would be sweet. I love the bug-eyed beast. Id like to see the bronco back too though.

ATCT
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Devilfish
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:02 am

As the A-67 is still in development and someways off, wouldn't potential customers be also better served by Embraer's Super Tucano?

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...+specialist+flies+A-67+Dragon.html


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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:12 pm




Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 25):
A-1s was another mean machine... but piston engined...

Details, details......






 Wink


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mandala499
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Wed Oct 25, 2006 3:02 pm

Now that's not a Skyraider *fake deny!*

One hell of a machine eh? And a Turbine-Contrarotating prop?  Smile I last heard about this 10 years ago in a book somewhere.

But man, that's a HUGE machine (very shootable... albeit requiring a LOT of ammo! LOL)

What's look-down visibility like on those, or the SuperTucano COIN and the A67?

Mandala499
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Devilfish
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:53 am

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 29):
And a Turbine-Contrarotating prop? Smile I last heard about this 10 years ago in a book somewhere.

There was the single-seat, Kamov Ka-50 'Hokum' attack helicopter with co-axial, contra-rotating rotors which eliminated the need for a tail rotor. However, the single-seat attack helo idea never caught on.

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Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 29):

What's look-down visibility like on those, or the SuperTucano COIN and the A67?

No idea on the look-down aspect of the Tucano and A-67, but I bet it's not too great on that huge a/c above.  Smile
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RAPCON
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:26 am

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 4):
I love the OV-10, however besides weapons payload, what exactly does the OV-10 bring to the table that a Predator or two can't?

Why don't you ask the crew that got shot down back in Desert Storm--an action which mightily expedited the retirement of these obsolete airplanes.
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luisde8cd
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:18 pm

Two OV-10s, flown by rebel pilots during a coup d' etat in Venezuela in 1992, were shot down by AAA from a military fort in Caracas.

The OV-10s were being chased by F-16s that had missile lock on them but the F16 pilots didn't want to blow up their friends and co-workers so the army took care and brought them down. Easy preys they were.

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis
 
mandala499
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Sat Oct 28, 2006 8:08 pm

Devilfish,
I was referring to the Skyraider with contra-rotating props... Not just any single seater with contra rotating props... Hokum does look mean though? But for a single seater contra-rotating prop, I'd prefer a Spit "mark God Knows which one!" (yes it's a Piston)...

So anyways, how many OV10s are there that can be reflown?

Mandala499
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N911ME
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Sat Oct 28, 2006 10:55 pm

That's not a Skyraider with contra-rotating props - it's the A2D Skyshark.....began as a turboprop version of the SPAD, but a different airplane.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/a2d.htm

There was an article in Aviation Week two weeks ago (I believe) about a new COIN aircraft from a company in Ohio: a light, single turboprop that somewhat resembled a "WWII fighter aircraft". Didn't look as agile as the PA-48 above, but could probably do some damage. I'll post a link as soon as I find one.
 
dl021
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:25 pm

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 31):
Why don't you ask the crew that got shot down back in Desert Storm--an action which mightily expedited the retirement of these obsolete airplanes.

LTC (now Col ret) Acree could tell you a thing or two about their modern battlefield survivability. SAM took away their lease on life.
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Devilfish
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:47 am

Quoting N911ME (Reply 34):
I'll post a link as soon as I find one.

Check the links in Replies 21 and 27.  Smile
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RAPCON
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:04 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 35):
LTC (now Col ret) Acree could tell you a thing or two about their modern battlefield survivability. SAM took away their lease on life.

Excatly my point.
The OV-10 belongs in only two places:
(1) Third World AF with minimal SAM threat, or
(2) A museum.
That's it!
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Devilfish
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:00 am

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 37):
The OV-10 belongs in only two places:
(1) Third World AF with minimal SAM threat, or
(2) A museum.
That's it!

You forgot one - the boneyard.  Smile
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Devilfish
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:15 pm

Quoting MigFan (Reply 17):

The idea of a turboprop, WWII-style FAC aircraft is not totally new.

Sukhoi came up with a further bizarre interpretation of that idea.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...or+counter-terrorism+missions.html
Quote:
"The six-seater was equipped with a Kalashnikov PKT 7.62mm machine gun, attached to the starboard side of the fuselage. The package includes a gunsight to be fitted to the cockpit, which is a derivative of the device used on the Su-15 interceptor, and can be supplied as a kit to be bolted on to a production-standard Be-103.

Following successful trials with the PKT gun, Beriev and KnAAPO are planning similar tests with a higher-power 12.7mm Kord machine gun."


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How tough and fitting would an amphibian be for COIN and counter-terrorism?

[Edited 2006-11-28 06:43:49]
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Devilfish
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:11 am

Quoting N911ME (Reply 34):

There was an article in Aviation Week two weeks ago (I believe) about a new COIN aircraft from a company in Ohio:

An update on this. It seems US Aircraft of Ohio has not given up after the false start, and has now engaged Brazil's Geometra to work on an aircraft based on a design of the former Tucano chief designer.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...dragon-borrows-from-design-of.html

It is not clear if the emphasis will now be for the production of a trainer.
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Devilfish
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:04 am

In a new development, Hawker Beechcraft AT-6s are being pushed for this mission.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...may-prosper-in-iraq-draw-down.html

Quote:
"The idea would be to free up US and coalition air assets and manpower by training Iraqi pilots for light-attack work using the relatively low-cost AT-6. He expects as many as 20 of the $8-10 million aircraft to be needed by 2009, rising to 50 aircraft, enough for three squadrons. The AT-6 is a derivative of the T-6 turboprop trainer.

Weapons will be carried on six hardpoints under the wing, with an ISR sensor carried on the belly. Hess says a typical combat load will be two 250lb (113kg) laser-guided bombs, two to four Hellfire missiles and two external tanks that boost fuel capacity to 7,600 litres (2,000USgal), enough for a loiter time of 4.5h. The Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-68-powered aircraft can also carry 0.50 calibre machine guns on the wing. The engine will be limited to 1,250shp (933kW), rather than its maximum of 1,600shp, to extend overhaul intervals and reduce maintenance costs."
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par13del
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RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Wed Apr 25, 2007 7:33 pm

Experts can correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think we are overlooking the real problem and looking at the symptons.
In Desert Storm I we had a Marine UAV watching the Iraqi march into Saudi Arabia the entire time and no one did anything about it. The predators with all their greateness in obtaining information is a tool for who exactly?
If an a/c is flying overhead doing observation with a human onboard, who exactly will they be talking to on the ground and keeping abreast of what they see, how fast can they do that and will they need approval to let the grunts know?
If a predator is flying overhead, the technology exist to have the operator - miles away - talking to the soldiers below the a/c and keeping them up to date, however, it begs the question, what pressure is the operator sitting miles away under, the strain of the combat situation or the political environment where his commanding officer is. I know the Marines have smaller UAV's, are Predators controlled by operators anywhere close to the battle front?

I guess after all that I'm probably trying to say, are the troops in the field crying out for more real time intel which is not filtered and sanitized by the upper echelon, why we keep hearing these attempts to have more manned a/c over the battlefield?
 
KevinSmith
Posts: 626
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:08 am

RE: Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq

Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:33 pm

Quoting MigFan (Reply 17):

The idea of a turboprop, WWII-style FAC aircraft is not totally new. They tried...

Here is info on the one that is at the USAF Museum.
http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=614
Learning to fly, but I ain't got wings.

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