7474ever
Topic Author
Posts: 367
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:16 am

Indonesia - UAV's From Israel?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:45 am

According to a local newspaper's (HaAretz) website, Indonesia is intrested in buying israeli made UAV's. Here's the link :

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/777565.html

Interesting news, since Israel has no official connection with Indonesia wich is the largest muslim country in the world.
 
Devilfish
Posts: 5212
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

RE: Indonesia - UAV's From Israel?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:54 am

Refusal by Israeli sources to comment on the matter could reflect official wariness for such a delicate arrangement.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
mandala499
Posts: 6458
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Indonesia - UAV's From Israel?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:39 pm

7474ever,
Well, our military officer ranking system is derived from Israel.
We've had various Israeli military connections in the past, one being the A-4E Skyhawks we have are ex IDF-AF, and initial support was given by USMC/USN and IDF-AF... And yes, we love those extended jet tailpipes  Smile

Our intelligence does have Mossad influence to, I am told that some aspects are directly derived from Mossad. This is especially true in intelligence against religious fanatics, which have been continuously cracked down between 1970 and 1998... and since 2001, we reportedly peeved off the US by reverting to Israeli methods instead of US methods... so I am told.

We selected the UZI as our standard SMG years back, but for political reasons we had to have it made in Belgium... the even the Galil was considered for our army.

The list goes further... but our military and intelligence has been in contact with Israel since 1970. Singapore is the place for them to meet.

Of course, our members of parliament doesn't know much of this.

Anyways, many Indonesians do go to Israel... Christians and Muslims to visit Jerusalem, as well as business connections (IT in particular)...

Selection of Israeli equipment isn't new here. We're looking for similar solutions to what Israel is using.

I wonder if ppl in Israel sees this as a surprise?  Smile

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
7474ever
Topic Author
Posts: 367
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:16 am

RE: Indonesia - UAV's From Israel?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:35 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 1):
And yes, we love those extended jet tailpipes

OMG...That was the first thing I thought of when I saw the article...those extended tailpipes...how funny...  Wink

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 2):
We selected the UZI as our standard SMG years back,

Well, I have to say, it wasn't a good choice, was it ?  Smile

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 2):
Of course, our members of parliament doesn't know much of this.

Really ? Don't they have to approve these kind of things ?

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 2):
I wonder if ppl in Israel sees this as a surprise?

I guess so. Since we don't have any (official) connection with Indonesia (unfortunatly) most people simply don't now anything about the issue. Travelling to Indonesia for israelis is not easy, but I know a few people who went to Bali. I don't think israelis can freely travel there, but more likely to certain parts of the country (Bali) through organised groups.

Still don't understand the policy...Why would the largest muslim country in the world buy israeli weaponry ?!
 
mandala499
Posts: 6458
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Indonesia - UAV's From Israel?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:23 pm

7474ever,
The UZIs were never popular with the regular units... The Galil (under South African manufacturing) lost to the assault rifle contest to replace the M16A1, the derivative of the FN-CAL won. Then it lost the police assault rifle contest to the Steyr AUG, and now the AKS74 is the standard for counter terrorist units for assault rifles. The Uzis were long replaced by MP5s...

Our military and intelligence links date back to the Suharto era, when the Parliament didn't hold any real power, let alone with military matters. So they have been by-passed largely until the reforms came after Suharto stepped down. Our use of the military on policing have largely been unsuccessful and caused a lot of grievances, hence it is now reformed and is causing a mess due to the Parliament wanting to dabble into it.

The problem with this UAV purchase, is that it comes under the military's jurisdiction to get them... hence need to be reviewed by the parliament for budgetary approval before it goes to the President. As democratic as it is or not, our parliament is clueless on defence and intelligence, no civilian in public office has experience on these unless they're in BIN, because for over 30 years, this was the realm of the CANS, and NSIS directly under the military.

This is causing a mess, 2 - 3 years back I was discussing this with someone from our Air Force Recconaissance office with regards to UAVs. They clearly see the benefit but they had serious doubts even then that the Parliament would understand. I was given the amounts offered by Israel, the US, Italy, and some other countries, and let's just say Israel provided one of the best options in terms of price, capability, and battlefield support requirements. The US offer was the best in capability, but unfortunately is dependent on the availability of large mobile support infrastructure, and/or the use of US comms assets, which was, out of the question.

This need comes from the lack of airborne surveillance capability in hotspots, and its dissemination of battle assessment to commanders. We devised an alternative (using crude methods) to the UAV and then current methods. The UAV was urgently needed for the conclusion of the Aceh campaign and quelling the sectarian violence in Central Sulawesi, which was feared to attract radicals and terrorists if it was allowed to continue.

Unfortunately, but not surprisingly, not enough details were given in that discussion as it was mainly aimed at finding solutions on "what if" the UAVs don't make it.

As to Indonesian-Israeli relations, until 1980, Indonesians needed a special passport if one was to travel to Israel for whatever purpose. I still remember the "Valid for all countries except Israel" stamped on one of the pages. Since 1986, that was gone. Going there nowadays is pretty easy I hear, but needs patience to get the paperwork done. I still don't know how Israelis arrange their travels here though.

Foreigners do not have free travel in this country anyways... Israeli or not. There are regions closed to foreigners (Aceh until 2005), Timor (before it seceded), and Papua are /were classified as "restricted", requiring special permits, other areas are semi-restricted, ie. only tourists are allowed freely, but business visas require further permits... However, the whole of Java, Bali is free for all visas... A lot of Israelis come here under their second passports... it's much easier.

(Hmm, I guess our peacekeeping deployment to Sinai in the 80s was a ploy! LOL)

Coming back to the UAVs, I am not surprised that this time the military wants Israeli equipment and not British or American, I guess this is also because our Military Commander is currently from the Air Force, the branch with a history of Israeli, South African and Soviet links for years.

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
Devilfish
Posts: 5212
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

RE: Indonesia - UAV's From Israel?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:31 am

Quoting 7474ever (Reply 3):
how funny...

Not as much as quoting the wrong guy.  Smile
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
7474ever
Topic Author
Posts: 367
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:16 am

RE: Indonesia - UAV's From Israel?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:05 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 5):
Quoting 7474ever (Reply 3):
how funny...

Not as much as quoting the wrong guy.

Erm...sorry about that...  blush 
 
LY744
Posts: 5185
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 11:55 pm

RE: Indonesia - UAV's From Israel?

Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:14 am

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 2):
We selected the UZI as our standard SMG years back, but for political reasons we had to have it made in Belgium...

It seems that most Israeli firearms end up being manufactured primarily outside of Israel (the Uzi, Galil, and Jericho come to mind), not sure whether the reasons are political or something else.


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4962
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: Indonesia - UAV's From Israel?

Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:53 am

Hmm, I wonder how important the manufacturing of UAVs in Indonesia is
will part of them be manufactured locally?
India seem to be another major customer for IDI UAVs, will part of them come
from there?
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
Devilfish
Posts: 5212
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

RE: Indonesia - UAV's From Israel?

Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:51 am

It looks as if the deal would push through. And the company, in an interesting, convenient twist, happen to be based in the Philippines.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...Israeli+UAVs+despite+protests.html

I wouldn't mind if the Philippine Air Force also acquire a couple or so of said UAVs.  Smile
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: Indonesia - UAV's From Israel?

Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:20 am

Quoting LY744 (Reply 7):
Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 2):
We selected the UZI as our standard SMG years back, but for political reasons we had to have it made in Belgium...

It seems that most Israeli firearms end up being manufactured primarily outside of Israel (the Uzi, Galil, and Jericho come to mind), not sure whether the reasons are political or something else.

I used to know a guy who was a tech rep in Saudi Arabia for Northrop, supporting F5s. He said a good part of his time was spent removing the Hebraic letters on parts from Israel and relabeling so that they could be turned over to the Saudis for their use.

That would come under the heading of a political reason.

The Galil's a nice piece of gear, by the way.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn

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