gh123
Posts: 645
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:09 pm

The EH-101 Repacement For Marine One - When?

Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:53 am

I read somewhere that the Merlin Helicopter was selected over the S-92 to perform the function of Marine One.

When is this aircraft going to be made and what is going to different about it?

How do you Americans feel about this - pissed that a European ride was chosen over a Sikorsky?

Thanks in advance.
 
ChiGB1973
Posts: 1394
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:39 am

RE: The EH-101 Repacement For Marine One - When?

Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:25 am

Quoting Gh123 (Thread starter):
How do you Americans feel about this - pissed that a European ride was chosen over a Sikorsky?

Certainly wasn't pissed, I would just assume see Marine One as an S-76 or better yet, an EC-145. I realized these are not big enough, but would still be cool.

It is kind of strange that this does not really matter to me, but if Air Force One was replaced with an Airbus, it would fly all over me.

M
 
Cadet985
Posts: 1972
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2002 6:45 am

RE: The EH-101 Repacement For Marine One - When?

Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:35 am

Quoting Gh123 (Thread starter):
How do you Americans feel about this - pissed that a European ride was chosen over a Sikorsky?

I for one feel PISSED that the US Military would ever use an aircraft from another country. What's next - an Airbus as AF1? USAF MiG's? The US Government needs to support the companies we have here - not the companies of foreign countries - even if we are allies with that nation.

Marc
 
connies4ever
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:54 pm

RE: The EH-101 Repacement For Marine One - When?

Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:47 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 2):
I for one feel PISSED that the US Military would ever use an aircraft from another country. What's next - an Airbus as AF1? USAF MiG's? The US Government needs to support the companies we have here - not the companies of foreign countries - even if we are allies with that nation.

The US taxpayer (or any nations, for that matter) are best served when the government acquires goods and services that offer the best quality, reliability, and value for the dollars spent. Just as the domestic economy is best served when consumers purchase the best value for money be it a car, a boat, a TV, whatever. It isn't the governments' job to prop up inferior producers.

If domestic suppliers can't compete on value for money, on quality, on reliability, then they need to improve in all areas. If they don't, the market will squeeze them out.

Simple as that.

Something Studebaker didn't learn, or American Motors. Neither are around any more. But the Japanese manufacturers did. The early Hondas, Toyotas, Datsuns (now Nissan) all had _lots_ of problems. But these were resolved and now consumers perceive these cars to offer best value for money, and hence the Japanese companies are beating the collective Ford, GM, and Daimler-Chrysler brains in.

Same thing in aerospace.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
zanl188
Posts: 3454
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:05 pm

RE: The EH-101 Repacement For Marine One - When?

Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:51 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 2):
I for one feel PISSED that the US Military would ever use an aircraft from another country. What's next - an Airbus as AF1? USAF MiG's?

USAF already has a number of MiGs... 15s, 17s, 21s, and 29s perhaps others by now. They also had a small quantity of Antonovs and they charter the occasional AN124. Then there's the T-6 Texan II a US built variant of the swiss PC-9. A PC-12 (another Swiss aircraft) Squadron stood up recently....

Let's see what else... The Navy / Marines have US built variations of the Brits Hawk & Harrier.

I guess you're pretty pissed, huh?
Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
 
mandala499
Posts: 6460
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: The EH-101 Repacement For Marine One - When?

Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:05 am

Let's not forget the Aeritalia G222 transport (in the ANG?), the IAI Kfir's for adversary trainers...
Then as ZANL188 said...
the Hawks, Harriers, PC-9, and then the J-PATS contenders were dominated by non-US designs.

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
zanl188
Posts: 3454
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:05 pm

RE: The EH-101 Repacement For Marine One - When?

Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:12 am

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 5):
Let's not forget the Aeritalia G222 transport (in the ANG?), the IAI Kfir's for adversary trainers...

I forgot about those guys but I beleive both are out of service by now.

Another I had forgotten about was the Shorts C-23 Sherpa which at one time was inservice with both the US Army & Air Force.
Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: The EH-101 Repacement For Marine One - When?

Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:42 am

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 4):
USAF already has a number of MiGs... 15s, 17s, 21s, and 29s perhaps others by now. They also had a small quantity of Antonovs and they charter the occasional AN124.

These along with the IAI Kfir's were used for evaluation and aggressor training. Don't forget one or a few more Mi-24 Hinds.

The USAAF also had Zeros, Focke Wulfs, Me-262s and Me-109s. All captured.

The point being, is that those don't count since they aren't a mainstay of our air forces but were acquired in one way or another so that we can get a look at what our would be enemies are producing.

They're quite different from the T-6 Texan IIs and what not.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 
 
zanl188
Posts: 3454
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:05 pm

RE: The EH-101 Repacement For Marine One - When?

Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:34 am

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 7):
The USAAF also had Zeros, Focke Wulfs, Me-262s and Me-109s. All captured.

The point being, is that those don't count since they aren't a mainstay of our air forces but were acquired in one way or another so that we can get a look at what our would be enemies are producing.

Yeah that's why I didn't bring up the WWII types and in retrospect I should have left out the MiG-15s which were all captured I believe.

But the rest were bought or bartered. The MiG-29s, as I recall, were bought because they were wired for nukes and were going for bargain basement prices.

The guy said....

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 2):
USAF MiG's?

... not elaborating on bought, bartered, captured, mainline, etc...

Come to think of it I believe either the Army or USAF has some Mi-8s... and then there's the whole Slingsby (?) T-3 misadventure....
Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
 
MissedApproach
Posts: 678
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:12 am

RE: The EH-101 Repacement For Marine One - When?

Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:28 am

I doubt any President will fly in the EH/US-101 until the tail rotor half hub problem has been definitively solved.
As for "foreign" products, the very notion of this is outdated. The aerospace world is every bit as global as car manufacturing, & with some domestic production offsets there's no product that would be disqualified due to foreign content.
Can you hear me now?
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: The EH-101 Repacement For Marine One - When?

Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:54 am

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 3):
The US taxpayer (or any nations, for that matter) are best served when the government acquires goods and services that offer the best quality, reliability, and value for the dollars spent. Just as the domestic economy is best served when consumers purchase the best value for money be it a car, a boat, a TV, whatever. It isn't the governments' job to prop up inferior producers.

While I agree with you, there are many Airbus cheerleaders on Anet that will plainly express their preference that European airlines ought to be buying Airbus planes in order to provide jobs for Europeans.

Protectionism is also alive and well on the other side of the Atlantic.....
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
MigFan
Posts: 710
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:50 am

RE: The EH-101 Repacement For Marine One - When?

Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:42 am

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 4):
The Navy / Marines have US built variations of the Brits Hawk & Harrier.

Didn't McDonnell Douglas purchase the Harrier design? The Soviet types in USAF/US Army inventory are for threat simulation and analysis. Would it not be the best training to train against the real thing?

I think the VH-71 will be a good aircraft, but I think it should have been an American design. I do not think AF1 will be represented by an Airbus design.

Sorry...
UH-60's suck!!!
 
gh123
Posts: 645
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:09 pm

RE: The EH-101 Repacement For Marine One - When?

Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:47 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 2):
I for one feel PISSED that the US Military would ever use an aircraft from another country

The Harrier Jump Jet - British.

But WHEN will these Merlins be made for Pres. flight?
 
Cadet985
Posts: 1972
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2002 6:45 am

RE: The EH-101 Repacement For Marine One - When?

Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:58 am

Quoting Gh123 (Reply 12):
The Harrier Jump Jet - British.

The original design might be British, but the AV-8B is manufactured by McDonnell Douglas.

http://www.hqmc.usmc.mil/factfile.ns...024dd8525626e0048ccf7?OpenDocument
 
zanl188
Posts: 3454
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:05 pm

RE: The EH-101 Repacement For Marine One - When?

Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:00 am

Quoting MigFan (Reply 11):
The Soviet types in USAF/US Army inventory are for threat simulation and analysis

They have operational roles as well...
Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
 
CTR
Posts: 299
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:57 am

RE: The EH-101 Repacement For Marine One - When?

Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:17 am

As a show of program progress, Lockheed (Prime contractor) is scheduled to land a EH-101 in "near" VH-71 configuration on the White House lawn next month. Actual service introduction is still almost two years off. Avionics development, not airframe.

BTW GH123, the USMC AV-8A and AV-8C were basically all Brit. However the latest and greatest Harrier airframe the AV-8B (your GR-MK5) is 60% Yank.

Have fun,

CTR
Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
 
MigFan
Posts: 710
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:50 am

RE: The EH-101 Repacement For Marine One - When?

Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:01 am

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 14):
They have operational roles as well...

Care to elaborate?
UH-60's suck!!!
 
greg3322
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 3:35 pm

RE: The EH-101 Repacement For Marine One - When?

Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:31 pm

What about the US Coast Guard aircraft?

HU-25 Guardian - French
HH-65 Dolphin - French
MH-68A Stingray -Italian

Greg
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 9086
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: The EH-101 Repacement For Marine One - When?

Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:24 pm

Eurocopter also sold some UH-145 to the US Army recently. However a bit overshadowed with other news, 350 or something. http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=2310321&C=america
However all these exports are totally overshadowed by the US weapon exports to Europe.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
gh123
Posts: 645
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:09 pm

RE: The EH-101 Repacement For Marine One - When?

Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:38 pm

 
GDB
Posts: 12680
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: The EH-101 Repacement For Marine One - When?

Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:42 am

AV-8B was indeed a US spec, 2nd generation Harrier, but as a joint project with BAe-which made it's adoption-with many modifications, by the RAF inevitable.

AV-8A's were delivered straight from Hawker's factory in Kingston, West London.
Over 100 of them.

Cadet895-approve of the adoption of the Merlin engine for the P-51?

Go beyond aircraft, the current US medium machine gun is Belgium-after decades of putting up with the contempory, but inferior, M-60.
The gun on the M1 tank is a German design, the armour from British developments.
The previous 105mm gun, was British.

The current 105mm light gun is British, as is the 81mm mortar.
Both were procured in the 80's to replace US products of a similar calibre.

Some US warships have an Italian 76mm gun, the Swedish Bofors 40mm and Swiss 20mm, were mainstays on warships and other applications from WW2 onwards.
F-35 will have a Mauser developed 27mm.

20 years ago, the US Army brought a French developed battlefield C3 system.

German MP-5 weapons are maintstays of US (and just about every other) Special Forces).
The current US service pistol is an Italian design.

The LAV wheeled vehicles of the US Marines-Swiss design, Canadian built.

I could go on and on.

See the problem with 'Not Invented Here'?

My understanding of EH-101, is that in it's 'Marine One' version, will start to enter service 2012-13.
This helicopter is in daily, operational, combat zone use with the RAF in Iraq.

[Edited 2006-10-30 20:46:33]
 
gh123
Posts: 645
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:09 pm

RE: The EH-101 Repacement For Marine One - When?

Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:35 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 20):

Good post - welcome to my respected user list!
 
zanl188
Posts: 3454
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:05 pm

RE: The EH-101 Repacement For Marine One - When?

Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:18 am

Quoting MigFan (Reply 16):
Care to elaborate?

Nope, but there are sources in the media... with pix as I recall....

edit: here's a source from the horses mouth.... Note the aircraft evacing from Hurlburt AFB includes Mi-8s. Nuff said...

http://www.af.mil/news/story_print.asp?storyID=123008662

[Edited 2006-10-31 00:27:21]
Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
 
studedave
Posts: 463
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:21 am

RE: The EH-101 Repacement For Marine One - When?

Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:23 am

Quoting Gh123 (Thread starter):
How do you Americans feel about this - pissed that a European ride was chosen over a Sikorsky?

For this particular job, yes I'd say that it does indeed look bad. Maybe it'll wake up the US manufacturers and it won't happen again. As long as he's not ridin' around in a stretch (insert non-US car of your choice)... I'm okay.

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 3):
If domestic suppliers can't compete on value for money, on quality, on reliability, then they need to improve in all areas. If they don't, the market will squeeze them out.

Simple as that.

Something Studebaker didn't learn, or American Motors. Neither are around any more.

This next part is off topic a little, but a nerve was touched, and the truth needs to be known!!! I think someone needs to do some homework...
American Motors is kinda sorta still around~ maybe not in name, but in spirit- they're called JEEPs!!!
Where Studebaker is concerned~  box 
Trust me when I say that the reason that Studebaker is not around has NOTHING to do with a poor quality, unreliable product. I should know~- I own five of them! One has been a daily driver for me for the last 15, count 'em- 15 years!!! I got her when she was already 25 years old- and yet she drives on~ she looks pretty darn good for her age, too! Will your new car last that long? I say no. Try getting the parts you need for it in ten years (let alone 40)!!! It'll be cheap Hong Kong pot metal by then...  bomb 

I can't speak for AMC, but I know that Studebaker had MAJOR management and Union problems. The product was not the problem. Some of the things that are common place nowadays were pioneered by Studebaker. Oh, and by the way- the company that bought Studebaker is still around, they just didn't want to build cars anymore...
Classic planes, Classic trains, and Studebakers~~ what else is there???
 
connies4ever
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:54 pm

RE: The EH-101 Repacement For Marine One - When?

Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:46 am

Quoting StudeDave (Reply 23):
Where Studebaker is concerned~ box
Trust me when I say that the reason that Studebaker is not around has NOTHING to do with a poor quality, unreliable product. I should know~- I own five of them! One has been a daily driver for me for the last 15, count 'em- 15 years!!! I got her when she was already 25 years old- and yet she drives on~ she looks pretty darn good for her age, too! Will your new car last that long? I say no. Try getting the parts you need for it in ten years (let alone 40)!!! It'll be cheap Hong Kong pot metal by then... bomb

Hi Dave-

Sorry if I hit a nerve....my Dad owned a 47 bulletnose and a 55 Commander.
He loved them and was a lead mech at the time for AC, so he knew his stuff mechanically. I recognize that they were technically advanced in many ways: seat belts, for one thing, were available, indirect dash lighting, several other safety and tech features. Also Raymond Loewy designed some nice looks for Stude.

However, management and union culture issues are part of the overall value for money equation -- bad labour/mgmt relations hurt production, drive up costs, also parts availability, and on. That's one of the things that needs to be solved to keep going and rise to the top.

I still turn my head when I see a Stude...
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
CTR
Posts: 299
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:57 am

RE: The EH-101 Repacement For Marine One - When?

Tue Oct 31, 2006 11:05 am

GDB,

Some of the best machines ever to take to the sky (or the road) have been Anglo-American crossbreeds, P-51D, AV-8B, AC Cobra, GT40, Sunbeam Tiger.

Not to mention how many generations of USN aviators owe their lives to Martin Baker ejection seats

I view the VH-71 with the same perspective. The best of both sides of the Atlantic. Agusta-Westland airframe, Lockheed electronics system integration, all assembled by Bell Helicopter in Texas.

Carol Shelby would approve......

Have fun,

CTR
Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
 
GDB
Posts: 12680
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: The EH-101 Repacement For Marine One - When?

Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:26 am

CTR, I totally agree, international co-operation, at least from the UK perspective, does not have just to be within Europe.

I think that although many did not like it, for some in the industry who had suffered from project cancellations-understandably so, the move to international co-operation was wise and inevitable.

Though driven in the 60's from failure-(where was the UK counterpart to best sellers like the Mirage III for example?), industry here was saved by it.
Not just for production-any say US design could have been licence built, but in design/development too.

Simply put, even the Cold War strength RAF could not procure new advanced aircraft in the numbers to justify their purely national development, with just the hope of exports to make it pay.
Many projects done to UK forces requirements were hard to export anyway, France might have been willing to abandon the larger, more complex Swing Wing Mirage G, for the more basic but exportable Mirage F1-which would sell, but that was rarely the case here.
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6447
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: The EH-101 Repacement For Marine One - When?

Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:40 am

Talking about foreign products in the USAF inventory the B-57 Canberra should not be forgotten.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Alasdair
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 4:30 am

RE: The EH-101 Repacement For Marine One - When?

Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:48 am

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 27):
Talking about foreign products in the USAF inventory the B-57 Canberra should not be forgotten.

Indeed not! Good spot  Smile The original EE design served well in Vietnam if I recall correctly, and the WB-57 is still flying.

And as for the rest of the "Ohhh, it's not a US helicopter...." whingers amongst you, the EH-101 was selected as the best chopper for the job. You wouldn't want your President riding around in the 2nd-best machine, would you?  stirthepot 
Scots wha hae wi' Wallace bled.....
 
WrenchBender
Posts: 1662
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 5:59 am

RE: The EH-101 Repacement For Marine One - When?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:43 am

The first Test Vehicle was delivered to Pax River Nov 05 (leased Italian Navy)
used to train pilots and maintainers. 3 more Test Vehicles to follow in spring 07, 23 more operational a/c to follow. Lockheed Martin is basing the VH71A on its US101 as an american built variant of the Agusta-Westland EH101.
The L-M team consists of A-W (design) Bell Helicopter (a/c production) and GE (engines).

The above was gleaned from an article in Bell Helicopters 'Rotorbreeze', their quarterly news magazine, June 2006 issue.

WrenchBender
Silly Pilot, Tricks are for kids.......

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos