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B737-112
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Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Mon Dec 11, 2006 6:05 pm

I was watching a show about Area 51 and they showed a Mig-29 being put through an airshow style flight over the Nevada desert. I'm pretty sure that Russians were not granted permission to fly into Area 51 so it would seem that American pilots are in control of these jets. It seems odd to me, anyone have any idea on why this would occur?

Ryan
 
Gary2880
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:03 pm

Quoting B737-112 (Thread starter):
so it would seem that American pilots are in control of these jets



Quoting B737-112 (Thread starter):
anyone have any idea on why this would occur?

Target practice.

May have miss heard but i believe those pilots (and pilots of aggressor aircraft?) are trained to fight and fly the same way, or as close as they can, to russian/foreign pilots.

How they get hold of said aircraft in the first place i don't know?

mmmmmmmmm F-18 painted in aggressor colours   

oooooh my my my.


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[Edited 2006-12-11 11:10:24]
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kc135topboom
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:15 pm

The USAF has gotten hold of many Mig fighters. They have had the Mig-15/17/19/21/23/and 29, along with many Su fighters.

They pick them up at Saturday afternoon garage sales and flea markets.
 
PADSpot
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:34 pm

German Air Force sold some MiG-23 and Su-22 to the USAF after they got them from the former East-German air force. AFAIK the USAF MiG-29 originate from Moldavia.
 
CTR
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:38 pm

Why is Ford in possision of Hondas?

Why is Toyota in possesion of BMWs?

Same reason for the the US to own a Mig-29.

Know your competition!

Have fun,

CTR
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miamiair
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:46 pm

I remember reading something about them a while back. The US bought ex-Moldovan MiG-29s after the USSR folded its tent. These Migs had the wiring and provisions to deliver nuclear bombs. Consider it preventative maintenance.
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sphealey
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:55 pm

The USAF admitted last month what had long been suspected: that it has been keeping a small Soviet air force at Area 51 since about 1970. It was used for both research and aggressor training. I believe the article was in Aviation Leak.

They have not explained where the aircraft came from prior to 1990, and I imagine they won't for at least 50 years.

sPh
 
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:37 pm

Quoting Sphealey (Reply 6):
They have not explained where the aircraft came from prior to 1990, and I imagine they won't for at least 50 years.

Probably from deserters, non-aligned states and states whose alignment changed over time (but prior to 1990), ... like Egypt. Nothing too spectacular ... it worked the same on the other side of the curtain.

[Edited 2006-12-11 14:38:32]
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:14 am

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 5):
These Migs had the wiring and provisions to deliver nuclear bombs.

That hardly makes them more dangerous. If someone has nukes, I'm sure he'll find a way to drop them from any figher jet in his possession.

Peter
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:59 am

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 8):

That hardly makes them more dangerous. If someone has nukes, I'm sure he'll find a way to drop them from any figher jet in his possession.

I thought the situation was what ever nation was going to buy them. The U.S. bought them at a somewhat lower price, which the Moldovans accepted in order to curry favor with us.

And as far as I know, those Fulcrums were dismantled and loaded onto C-5s, and never re-assembled. We had MiG-29s through other sources that were used for dissimilar/aggressor duty, as well as deployment of Luftwaffe Fulcrums.
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Tue Dec 12, 2006 2:19 am

The German Luftwaffe has brought their Mig-29s over to the US plenty of times for dissimilar aircraft training....especially during US run execises. I had the opportunity to control fighters against such Mig-29s while out at Nellis.
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Tue Dec 12, 2006 2:22 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 9):
And as far as I know, those Fulcrums were dismantled and loaded onto C-5s, and never re-assembled.

I believe 1 is now on static display at an intellegence facility.


As far as where the US gets this birds, reportedly a few came from defectors that flew to Israel and south Korea. Some where bought from Egypt and Moldovia.
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dlednicer
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Tue Dec 12, 2006 6:05 am

Here is a list of known defections and transfers of foreign aircraft:
http://home.comcast.net/~anneled/Defections.html
 
broke
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Tue Dec 12, 2006 7:30 am

At least some of the Moldovan MiG-29's were reassembled and flown. One is currently in the restoration shops of the National Museum of the U.S. Air Force being made ready for exhibition. It's engines went to the engine test facility at Tulahoma.
 
Oroka
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Tue Dec 12, 2006 1:58 pm

Quoting Broke (Reply 13):
Here is a list of known defections and transfers of foreign aircraft:
http://home.comcast.net/~anneled/Def....html

According to that list

Moldova Six MiG-29A, one MiG-29B and fourteen MiG-29C sold to United States.

and Iraq Several MiG-29 captured in damaged condition by USA.


Sounds like the potential for a whole squadron!
 
HaveBlue
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Tue Dec 12, 2006 2:27 pm

Quoting Sphealey (Reply 6):
The USAF admitted last month what had long been suspected: that it has been keeping a small Soviet air force at Area 51 since about 1970. It was used for both research and aggressor training. I believe the article was in Aviation Leak.

They have not explained where the aircraft came from prior to 1990, and I imagine they won't for at least 50 years.

I heard this many many years, and it's been pretty well known. As stated we had most types of fighters and we've had them for a long time. Hasn't been anything near a secret imo.

I've seen a MiG-29 and MiG-23 at Tyndall AFB on a couple of occassions. They were not in flyable condition but were assembled and looked good from the outside. WPAB Museum has had the MiG 15/17/19/21 and AF Armarment Musuem at Eglin AFB, FL has the 21 as well, those are just the ones I've seen first hand.
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dispatchguy
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Tue Dec 12, 2006 8:53 pm

With that, they can keep their AFTTP 3-1 Vol II (Threat Reference Guide and Countertactics) updated, their manual on how to defeat the threat.
Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
 
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:46 pm

Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 15):
I've seen a MiG-29 and MiG-23 at Tyndall AFB on a couple of occassions.

There are also two Russian fighters on static display at Goodfellow AFB, TX.
 
broke
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:43 pm

Current Soviet aircraft that are on display or in restoration at the National Museum of the U.S. Air Force are;
On display; MiG-15bis (pilot defected from North Korea), MiG-17, MiG-19, MiG-21F, MiG-23
In restoration; MiG-21 (will replace existing exhibit), MiG-23 (will replace existing exhibit), MiG-25 (out of the Iraqi sand), MiG-29, SU-22
 
sphealey
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:25 am

> I heard this many many years, and it's been
> pretty well known.

I agree, but according to the Aviation Week article this was the first time the USAF had officially stated that these aircraft existed.

sPh
 
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:33 am

Quoting Sphealey (Reply 19):

I agree, but according to the Aviation Week article this was the first time the USAF had officially stated that these aircraft existed.

Well, some of them (MiG-15, etc...) had been acknowledge for a long time.

Now the question is: when will we see a Flanker in USAF inventory?  Wink
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
HaveBlue
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:17 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 20):
Now the question is: when will we see a Flanker in USAF inventory?

When we take over the world!

j/k  Smile
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petertenthije
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:52 am

Anyone know what aircraft Russia (USSR) managed to get from the west?
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:30 am

My first clue that there were more MiGs in the US than officially admitted came during a visit to the USAF Museum in the early 1970s. They had the North Korean defector's MiG-15 on display. Next to it, there were was a display of a MiG-15 ejection seat. It took me a minute to realize that the MiG-15 on display had an ejection seat in it, meaning that the US had its hands on at least one more MiG-15.

During the late 1970s there was at least one newspaper article claiming the existence of the "Red Hat" squadron. In other words, its been an open secret for a long time.
 
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:10 am

Quoting Aeroweanie (Reply 23):
its been an open secret for a long time

AWST published an air-to-air shot of a MiG-21 in US markings in the mid- or late-1980s.
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:17 am

Quoting Petertenthije (Reply 22):
Anyone know what aircraft Russia (USSR) managed to get from the west?

If we limit this to jet fighters, I don't know of many.

On May 29th, 1958, a Belgian RF-84F apparently violated East German airspace and it was forced to land by Russian MiG-17s at Damgarten, a Russian airfield. After two weeks the pilot was released, and after another few weeks the aircraft was given back. The Russians did not fly it as far as I know, and they also did not take it apart, although it was taken apart for road transport across the Iron Curtain back to Belgium. This story seems to be not well known. I once wrote a short article in Dutch on it, which doesn't contain much more information. I'd be interested if anyone has more.

A couple of F-5Es captured by North Vietnam were examined in Poland and Czechoslovakia. I believe I read somewhere they were not flown. One of them is now in the Cracow Museum alongside an A-37:

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[Edited 2006-12-12 19:41:55]
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:34 am

Quoting Petertenthije (Reply 22):
Anyone know what aircraft Russia (USSR) managed to get from the west?

Four B-29s, pieces of an F-117, and potentially anything in Iranian or North Vietnamese inventory. That could mean F-4s or F-14s.

It is alleged by some (but not proven) that a Pakistani F-16 found its way to China.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:01 am

I've seen all sorts of 'soviet' types flying over the ranges in Nevada while training. Some migs and also hind's. No big deal.

-Check
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:45 am

6-Sep-76 MiG-25 USSR Defection to Hakodate Japan by Lt. Victor Belenko. Aircraft returned.

I remember that one very well. It took veeeery long time to return it, and when it finally happened, then it was in a shipload of small cardboard boxes.

It was the first time "the west" had a look at the nose radar on the MiG-25 and it took a long time to investigate all its capabilities and draw up the complete design.

Sure a lot of NATO ECM hardware was re-programmed following this defection.

If memory serves me well, the Lt. Victor Belenko got a cheque valued $100,000 signed by Pentagon, and a US passport.
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LMP737
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:06 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 26):
Four B-29s, pieces of an F-117, and potentially anything in Iranian or North Vietnamese inventory. That could mean F-4s or F-14s.

I recently read the Osprey series Iranian F-14 In Action. From what the book said in interviews with Iranian pilots no F-14 ended up in Soviet hands.
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474218
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:18 am

While the United States may operate a few, captured, bought or borrowed, Russian aircraft it pales in comparison to Russian blatant stealing of the B-29. Several B-29 landed in Russia, when they had mechanical problems during raids over Japan, close to the end of WWII. At the time Russia and the US were allies. The Russians took the B-29's apart and using reverse engineering built there own fleet of B-29's, called the Tupolev B-4.

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RayPettit
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:01 am

An F-86 was captured around 1951 and taken to the Sukhoi Design Bureau.

At least one other was captured in Korea and reportedly taken to Russia too.
 
MCIGuy
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:32 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 26):
pieces of an F-117

Yeah, I'll never understand why we didn't pound the bejesus out of that wreckage in Bosnia.
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:54 pm

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 32):

Yeah, I'll never understand why we didn't pound the bejesus out of that wreckage in Bosnia.

Human shields.

While the technology loss was lamentable, the fact is that we have moved far beyond that point.
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 3:51 am

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 28):
If memory serves me well, the Lt. Victor Belenko got a cheque valued $100,000 signed by Pentagon, and a US passport.

There was a book written about Viktor Belenko, his life in the Soviet Union, his decision to defect, and his impressions of life in the U.S. Pretty good reading.
You can get the book on Amazon.
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MigFan
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 5:44 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 20):
Now the question is: when will we see a Flanker in USAF inventory?

There are two supposedly serving in Area 51. Strong sources on that one. One aircraft flies, the other is in cold storage.

/M
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474218
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:14 am

Quoting Ex52tech (Reply 34):
There was a book written about Viktor Belenko, his life in the Soviet Union, his decision to defect, and his impressions of life in the U.S. Pretty good reading.

The book was called "Mig Pilot" it is great read.
 
ex52tech
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:51 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 36):
The book was called "Mig Pilot" it is great read.

Oops..... I did forget to add the title.
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MigFan
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:50 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 36):
The book was called "Mig Pilot" it is great read.

Yes it was...
UH-60's suck!!!
 
dispatchguy
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:01 pm

I just discovered this page, it prints out to about 50 pages of analysis from someone (I assume) that is/was in the Finnish Air Force, and it is a VERY detailed analysis and history of the MiG-29

http://www.saunalahti.fi/~fta/MiG-29.htm

VERY interesting...
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eniranjanrao
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:05 am

There were a lot of Mig 29 left over from East Germany which were transfered to US, any way Pakistan has given a F-16 and a lot of western equipment to China for them to know their workings everyone knows it this is a spy game going on for ages and cannot be stopped.
 
LovesCoffee
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:55 am

As far as I know, the FAA lists 5 privately owned MiG-29s and 2 Su-27 in the US. Not sure about the military inventory/possession. I even remember somewhere here on a.net that someone was plane spotting In Everett and saw one of the Su-27s land.

And here is a a.net picture of a MiG-29 at Everett.
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checksixx
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Sat Nov 29, 2014 5:07 am

Oh my good Lord! Someone really had to revive a 8 year old thread??? And if you're going to simply repeat what your Wikipedia search revealed, at least mention:

"In 1997, the United States purchased 21 Moldovan aircraft under the Nunn–Lugar Cooperative Threat Reduction program. Fourteen were MiG-29Ss, which are equipped with an active radar jammer in its spine and are capable of being armed with nuclear weapons. Part of the United States’ motive to purchase these aircraft was to prevent them from being sold to "rogue states", especially Iran.[109] This purchase could also provide the USAF with a working evaluation and data for the MiG-29, and possibly for use in dissimilar air combat training. Such information may prove valuable in any future conflicts and can aid in the design and testing of current and future weapons platforms. In late 1997, the MiGs were delivered to the National Air and Space Intelligence Center (NASIC) at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio, though many of the former Moldovan MiG-29s are believed to have been scrapped."
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:29 am

Don't forget getting our hands on Soviet aircraft greatly aided the development of NCTR (Non Cooperative Target Recognition). With the publicly available information, with NCTR, you can use your radar, if it was capable enough to count the compressor and turbine blades to ID the motor(s), and thus derive an educated guess at the the ID of the contact. That way, you can figure out with a reasonable degree of certainty if the aircraft you've locked up is a MiG-29 vs a Su-27 vs a MiG-23. It is not infallible, it can be tricked, but it is reasonably accurate.

Having our own MiG's and Sukhoi's greatly aided the development of NCTR and refining its ability to tell the difference between different aircraft. MiG's flown by the 4477th Test and Evaluation Squadron were of great use in that regard.
 
j.mo
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Sat Nov 29, 2014 3:35 pm

I work with a guy who helped maintain the Migs. He said this book has it down pretty good;

http://www.amazon.com/Red-Eagles-Ame...cas-General-Aviation/dp/1846039703

JM
 
RetiredWeasel
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Sat Nov 29, 2014 3:48 pm

Just about every USAF Fighter/attack pilot and probably most Naval Aviators that flew in the 80's and 90's were at some point introduced to 'Constant Peg'. This was the code name for the very secret (at the time) operation of the 4477 Test and Eval Squadron. If you flew a Red Flag during that period, you might have seen or engaged a real 'bandit' aircraft. Contrary to a lot of posts here, the Squadron didn't fly out of Area 51. You can research on the internet and even read a book by a former pilot of the 'Red Eagles' on Amazon. Most everything has been declassified. Have Fun.
 
mmo
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:52 pm

Quoting RetiredWeasel (Reply 45):
Just about every USAF Fighter/attack pilot and probably most Naval Aviators that flew in the 80's and 90's were at some point introduced to 'Constant Peg'.

Did my first Red Flag in late 78 and we had a a Mig-21 trying to get us, We had been briefed about the threats in the mission pre-brief. Even then the electronic range was just amazing. To be honest, the knowledge of those aircraft, at least to the AF/Navy aircrews was nothing new.
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Beatyair
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:55 am

They also have an Su-27. Real aerodynamic aircraft, hopefully they can learn something. Rather then the A-35 Flying Brick.
 
mandala499
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:27 am

Quoting Sphealey (Reply 6):
They have not explained where the aircraft came from prior to 1990, and I imagine they won't for at least 50 years.

Indonesia sold its MiG-21s and US after the alleged coup attempt by the communists brought an end to our ties with the Soviet Union. The MiG-19s were sold to Pakistan and some (not under Constant Peg, AFAIK) to US as a threat reduction agreement with Australia (and we got.. F86 Sabres as an interim replacement)... The MiG-21Fs were sold to the US under Constant Peg "in exchange" for a cheaper price for the Aussie F-5E/F Tiger II from the US (since we keep reminding them the F86a were temporary) and also in exchange for US facilitation is our then clandestine purchase of ex Israeli A-4Es.

Our MiG-21Fs served at 447 in USAF for a looong time...  
And yes, Red Eagles is interesting. The author is also happy to talk about all the declassified stuff.
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L-188
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RE: Why Is The US In Possession Of The Mig-29?

Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:39 am

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 28):
It was the first time "the west" had a look at the nose radar on the MiG-25 and it took a long time to investigate all its capabilities and draw up the complete design.

Back a couple of years ago I was looking up Russian videos to watch for a language class I was taking (you might remember the thread where I asked for Russian movie titles to watch) anyway I found some Russian defense TV shows. One of them the guy was talking about their radar technology and was filmed in the museum at a radar factory....Anyway supposedly they had the radar out of "The traitor Belenko's" Mig and mentioned you could still see marks where US techs dismantled it for inspection.

Quoting 474218 (Reply 36):
The book was called "Mig Pilot" it is great read.

Ageed, but I haven't read it since Jr. High school

Quoting MigFan (Reply 35):
Quoting N328KF (Reply 20):Now the question is: when will we see a Flanker in USAF inventory?
There are two supposedly serving in Area 51. Strong sources on that one. One aircraft flies, the other is in cold storage.

There is at least one alleged photo of one taxing around Groom Lake
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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos