vanguard737
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UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:17 am

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2497741,00.html

Summary:

"Britain has threatened to pull out of a planned £10 billion purchase of the new fighters if the US refused to share secret computer technology needed to maintain operational sovereignty over the Armed Forces."

"Lord Drayson has considered a number of “Plan B” options for replacing Britain’s ageing Harrier ground-attack aircraft if the deal for buying about 150 Joint Strike Fighters falls apart. These are thought to include buying French Rafale jets, which can fly from aircraft carriers, or more Eurofighter Typhoons."

-----------------------------------------

What do you think is more likely, should the deal fail? I would think Eurofighter to be the most logical option, as Britain has significant investments in the program, not to mention current orders.

However, the Royal Navy is in need of a carrier-born aircraft. As of now, only the Rafale would be able to fulfill that need. Could the Typhoon be modified into a carrier-born version?

Will be very interesting to see what happens, any which way!
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zanl188
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RE: UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:23 am

Yawn... Old news...

RAF has what.. A billion USD invested in this program so far? They're not going to pull out, it's a bargaining tactic. A compromise will be reached - no doubt.
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vanguard737
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RE: UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:29 am

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 1):
A compromise will be reached - no doubt.

Then it had better be reached quick - Britain has to sign its next-stage continuation in 20 days.
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baroque
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RE: UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:51 am

The UK are not the only ones worried, but for the time being Aus seems to be accepting the crumbs from the rich man's table.

Nice rewards for being all the way with LB... ooops it was not him was it!

Does the UK keep some of the intellectual property it must have invested in this soap opera? If it does, that might make the negotiations a little more balanced. How will the fans be if the UK withdraws and takes its ball and goes home in the same way the ISG suggests for the US in Iraq?
 
Devilfish
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RE: UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Tue Dec 12, 2006 1:15 pm

This would likely be settled during the Washington meeting. Both sides stand to lose should the UK decide to back out - the UK its $1.1B investment, and the US the potential sale of 138 frames at an estimated $60M a copy. But more than this, the long, close cooperation on political and defence issues would suffer.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Oroka
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RE: UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Tue Dec 12, 2006 1:42 pm

OMG not again!!!1!!1one!!1shitf+1!!

They are just rattling the American's tree... again. There is too much money invested in this program for them to just walk away, then dump more cash on another inferior plane.

This isn't the first time, it wont be the last time they threaten to back out.
 
Devilfish
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RE: UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:17 am

As RP has posted in another thread, an agreement has been reached paving the way for the UK's continued participation in the program.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...llow+Lockheed+Martin+F-35+JSF.html

The report goes on to say that the MoU might embolden other non-Level One partners to press for the same privileges.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Lumberton
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RE: UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:54 am

Thanks for posting, DEVILFISH. Expect this story to recur every six months or so, only instead of UK substitute Australia, Norway, Canada, etc.

So, the most recent "outrage" detailed in the UK press seems to have been timed to coincide with Drayson's visit? Unless that MOU was feverishly drafted in the last few hours (virtually impossible on a project of this magnitude IMO), I suspect this had been worked out well in advance.... Or, maybe I'm being too cynical here?  Wink

[Edited 2006-12-12 18:57:25]
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
GDB
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RE: UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:44 am

As stated an ongoing issue, but one which Drayson was optimistic about.
This latest 'news' is from a committee of cross party MP's.
Not to be confused with the actual machinery of government itself, being recommendations rather than policy.

However, to answer the question, no Typhoon would not likely be modded for carrier ops, this idea is 15, or even 20 years, too late.
Requiring major software and some structual changes.
The history of modding land based types for carrier use is not a happy one, all the back to the Spitfire/Seafire.

So if the worst happened, it would be Rafale.
More likely however, would be the cancellation of the whole CVF project, since though it has the potential to be changed for CTOL ops, in reality, the design has no provision for steam catapults, though France is likely to build it's own CTOL CVF version, but to a later timescale to the already delayed RN plans.
This RN 'future proofing' of CVF, has electromagnetic catapults, decades ahead, in mind.
After the USN had proven this technology on their CVNs.

The extra costs/delays of this would likely doom it anyway, likely in this event the RN would get the 12 Type 45 Destroyers originally planned with it's PAAMS anti air system, some later batches using the space provision in the design for 16 VLS tubes for either Tomahawks-using the Mk.41 VLS, or the planned ship launched version of the Storm Shadow air launched cruise missile, from the existing design of VLS tubes.
And/or potentially longer 'cruiser' Type 45 versions, with many more VLS tubes.
 
bilgerat
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RE: UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:39 am

Interestingly enough, I was on a course at HMS Collingwood a couple of weeks ago and I was involved in a discussion with a Lieutenant Commander who is part of the organisation that ensures the Royal Navy's equipment is actually suitable for the job.

He was very scathing about the "Smart Procurement" policy in general. He believes the Type 45 is nothing more than a white elephant and totally unsuited and unnecessary for the defence commitments the UK faces today. He pointed out that each Type 45 will cost eight times as much to procure as a Type 23 frigate. I should probably point out this guy was an ex-frigate WEO and is probably a bit biased in his views of destroyers. He also mentioned there are problems finding someone to actually manufacture the machinery for the Type 45s, as the suppliers are far more attracted to commercial shipping contracts where they can make more money.

He also mentioned the CVF - again he was a little scathing of this project, saying the huge amounts of money invested in these ships are hardly justified seeing as they are only likely to be "used in anger" very infrequently. He also said there are serious doubts as to whether anyone will actually want the contract to make the propellers for these ships, for similar reasons to the problems the Type 45 is having.

He also made a very valid point - if the CVF programme is cancelled then the Royal Fleet Auxiliary's MARS programme will become very unnecessary and will be cancelled as well. Which will probably mean I will end up sailing around on the same tired old ships....

Just a few things I thought you might find interesting!
 
Lumberton
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RE: UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:43 am

Quoting BilgeRat (Reply 9):
He also mentioned the CVF - again he was a little scathing of this project, saying the huge amounts of money invested in these ships are hardly justified seeing as they are only likely to be "used in anger" very infrequently.

With all due respect to the LCDR, it's kind of like having 4 wheel drive; when you really need it, nothing else will do. Wouldn't it have been handy to have had ARK ROYAL (pre-Invincible) around for the Falklands?

[Edited 2006-12-13 00:43:43]
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
bilgerat
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RE: UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:52 am

I agree totally, it's very difficult to predict what type of war we will be fighting 10-15 years from now. I do support the CVF in principle, as I think if and when the time comes they will be worth their weight in gold. I think the point he was trying to make is spending vast amounts of money on prestige projects such as Type 45 and CVF is a little pointless when the defence procurement system in the UK gets even the most basic and simple things wrong.
 
baroque
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RE: UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:33 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 10):
Wouldn't it have been handy to have had ARK ROYAL (pre-Invincible) around for the Falklands?

If that Ark R had been around with its Phantoms, there would not have been a war in the first place.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 7):
Thanks for posting, DEVILFISH. Expect this story to recur every six months or so, only instead of UK substitute Australia, Norway, Canada, etc.

That is rather a difference slant to the story compared with the news release from the Committee. It will be interesting to see where the actual happening are. In the face of the Committee view, the Aus Def minister's actions at about the same time seemed very odd, but not in the light of alternate view.

But then again, the Aus Defence dept has been a tad accident prone of late, so nothing would surprise!
 
GDB
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RE: UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:28 am

Fact is, the Type 42's and their aging Sea Darts need urgent replacement.
At least T45 has room for more equipment, unlike most previous RN ships.
The PAAMS system could maybe have been installed on a longer, modified Type 23, but would be a tight squeeze with no margins for future growth.
And PAAMS looks to an extremely potent system.

Imagine a similar situation to the Lebanon evacution this year, but this time with a potentially hostile air threat, and no Cyprus nearby for RAF aircover.
If the Falklands taught us anything............
And that includes assuming a CVF is around too, even the mighty USN carrier groups have anti air escorts.
 
TSV
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RE: UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:43 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 7):
Thanks for posting, DEVILFISH. Expect this story to recur every six months or so, only instead of UK substitute Australia

Unfortunately not. As usual we rolled over pretty easily and our grandstanding wanker Politicians got their high profile Washington Press Conference :

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=170445

Oh well just have to hope this lot get voted out next year and the other lot review the position and then buy Raptors instead.
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eniranjanrao
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RE: UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:15 am

The biggest mistake the British did was to stop aircraft reasearch
they have made some the best Mil aircraft the world has seen from Spitfire,Lancaster,Hudson,Vampire,Hunter,Canberra,Harrier so they should not crib about transfer of technology.
 
GDB
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RE: UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:53 pm

Still do aircraft research, what we now call the Typhoon came out of the UK EAP programme.
The extensive-far more than ever before, UK presence on a US type in the shape of the F-35, did not come about just by doing some metal bashing, reference the 'Replica' project of the late 90's, to demonstrate that BAE had the competance to do major structures with advanced materials for a low observeable airframe.

It has been reported in the last few days that agreement has been reached between the US and UK on the F-35 issue.
 
Stealthz
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RE: UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:05 pm

Quoting BilgeRat (Reply 9):
saying the huge amounts of money invested in these ships are hardly justified seeing as they are only likely to be "used in anger" very infrequently.

Isn't the money invested in a weapon system considered well spent if it is NEVER used in anger?
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Lt-AWACS
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RE: UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:30 pm

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123034897

DOD, U.K. sign next stage Joint Strike Fighter agreement

12/12/2006 - WASHINGTON (AFPN) -- United States and United Kingdom officials signed a memorandum of understanding Dec. 12 to begin future cooperation in the production, sustainment and follow-on development, called PSFD, phase of the Joint Strike Fighter program.

Deputy Secretary of Defense Gordon R. England and United Kingdom Minister for Defense Procurement Lord Paul R. Drayson signed the MOU as England joins Australia, Canada, the Netherlands and the United States as nations that have signed the JSF PSFD agreement.

Denmark, Italy, Norway, and Turkey are scheduled to sign in the near future.

This new MOU will expand cooperation among the nine JSF partner nations beyond the ongoing JSF system development and demonstration phase, providing a framework for future JSF program efforts in production and beyond.

The United Kingdom was the first JSF partner, and is committing over $2 billion to the development phase of the overall JSF program. The U.K. plans to acquire up to 150 short take-off and vertical landing versions of the JSF, and...


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baroque
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RE: UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Sun Dec 17, 2006 1:50 am

Quoting TSV (Reply 14):
Unfortunately not. As usual we rolled over pretty easily and our grandstanding wanker Politicians got their high profile Washington Press Conference :

That was one of the most nauseating performances ever, at least as bad as the AWB efforts. The scene is reminiscent of 1995 and the truly awfulness of the Keating hubris. At least if the Augean stables are cleared out again, there MIGHT be a different decision on future fighters. With Raptors, they should not need an interim type??
 
Stealthz
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RE: UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Sun Dec 17, 2006 10:08 am

Quoting TSV (Reply 14):
Oh well just have to hope this lot get voted out next year and the other lot review the position and then buy Raptors instead

And have a boutique air force that is no good to anyone.
Not criticising the Raptor, it is an awesome aircraft but it costs too damn much. Australia could never afford to buy enough of them to be meaningful and would still require a strike capability that the Raptor does not possses at this time.
Having said that I am not convinced building an entire air force around a single type is wise either, my feeling is that the F-35 in trying to be all things for everybody will not excel at any of them.. the old "Jack of all trades, Master of none" thing!
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baroque
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RE: UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Sun Dec 17, 2006 10:52 pm

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 20):
Not criticising the Raptor, it is an awesome aircraft but it costs too damn much. Australia could never afford to buy enough of them to be meaningful and would still require a strike capability that the Raptor does not possses at this time.

Does it actually cost more than the F35s and their extra tankers and palaver? Not to mention how far an F35 can go compared with a Raptor? And how will an F35 fare if it comes across an SU29 or like type at the end of its journey?
 
GDB
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RE: UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:21 am

If the F-35, even allowing for the inevitable cost increases, even approached the price of a F-22, the programme would have been long axed.
F-22/F-35 is a bit like the F-15/F-16 mix arguments of the 70's, but now no Cold War budgets so the limitations on the F-22 buy, are so much greater, plus the very 'gold standard' (or should that be 'gold plated') nature of the aircraft.
But, that was the mission it was designed for.

'Jack Of All Trades, Master Of None', has been right in the past, but it's been as wrong as many times too.
Mosquito was a famous WW2 example, but in more recent times, F-16, F-18, Harrier to a degree, Mirage III, F-4 Phantom.
Most of these were designed for a a specific role, but were good enough to undertake other roles too, being effective in them too.

A F-111 would always be a much more effective strike aircraft than a F-4, but F-111 could not do anything else.
Making it unaffordable for most air forces-Australia had recently got the relatively cheap Mirage III, but had the RAAF for example brought F-4's instead of Mirages, they never would have been able to buy the F-111.

The F-22, would be very poor value for the RAAF, doubtful more than 30-40 could have been brought, without large, unbalancing, cuts elsewhere.
F-35C is probably the best bet, the longest range of the versions, basically the most potent of the F-35 range.

If still unhappy with terms and conditions of F-35 procurement, support and operation, and we in the UK can understand this perfectly, then some nice people at Eurofighter, likely the Warton UK branch, would be happy to talk.
BAE Australia have developed the planned fuselage confirmal fuel tanks, for Tranche 3 aircraft, along with the other improvements to the engines, and electrically scanned radar.
If F-35 could not be procured to Australia's satisfaction, then Tranche 3 Typhoon, great increases in Australian industrial involvement-no strings attached, could fit the bill.

Not a real F-111 replacement, though a good F-18 one, but what aircraft is? RAAF are not going to buy a previous generation type-no matter how improved, like F-15, not for the next 30 years, not when it will be the single RAAF combat type.
But a system like Storm Shadow, or similar, could partly undertake the role, along with Tomahawk for RAN subs and/or future surface ships.
 
Stealthz
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RE: UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:42 am

GDB,
An interesting and insightful post,

Quoting GDB (Reply 22):
A F-111 would always be a much more effective strike aircraft than a F-4, but F-111 could not do anything else.
Making it unaffordable for most air forces-Australia had recently got the relatively cheap Mirage III, but had the RAAF for example brought F-4's instead of Mirages, they never would have been able to buy the F-111.

That was an interesting period in defence procurement, I was quite young at the time but do recall the newspaper stories regarding the decision to purchase TSR-2 or TFX(F-111), never really understood whether the RAAF decision to buy the F-111 was a nail in the coffin of the TSR-2 or the British cancellation of that project forced the RAAF to go with the F-111.

A side note, I recall the introduction of the Mirage III quite well as my father was a Radio Tech. at RAAF Williamtown at the time. He was with 30Sqn working on Bloodhound missiles but that is a whole different story about "interesting defence procurement"

Cheers
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Devilfish
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RE: UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Wed Dec 20, 2006 3:43 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 22):
Not a real F-111 replacement, though a good F-18 one, but what aircraft is? RAAF are not going to buy a previous generation type-no matter how improved,

Well not a real replacement, but just a stopgap - although they could be satisfied enough they might just decide to keep it and order more.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...ornet+squadron+as+JSF+stopgap.html
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
daedaeg
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RE: UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:24 am

Considering that BAE will probably become an American company over the next 5 years anyway, I don't think the US goverment should fear transfer of technology to the Brits. Glad to see an agreement though.
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GDB
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RE: UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Fri Dec 22, 2006 9:44 pm

StealthZ, my understanding is that the then Chief Of Defence Staff for the UK, one Lord Mountbatten, went to Australia in 1963 or 64, telling the RAAF not to bother with TSR.2, it would be no good and end up cancelled anyway.
(And he'd work hard to see that happen, seeing it as a threat to the CVA-01 carrier).

BAC were planning to offer extensive industrial offsets for any RAAF TSR.2 buy, seeing a RAAF buy as making the aircraft much more difficult to axe, as well as cheaper through increased production.
This would be a government to government deal, even including a RAAF lease of Buccaneers, as a stop gap and/or cover for any delays-rather like those 24 F-4E's in lieu of the F-111's that did happen.
 
RichardPrice
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RE: UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Fri Dec 22, 2006 9:50 pm

Quoting Daedaeg (Reply 25):
Considering that BAE will probably become an American company over the next 5 years anyway, I don't think the US goverment should fear transfer of technology to the Brits. Glad to see an agreement though.

How is BAE going to 'become an American company'?
 
A342
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RE: UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Sat Dec 23, 2006 12:51 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 21):
And how will an F35 fare if it comes across an SU29 or like type at the end of its journey?

Do you even know what a Su-29 is ?  biggrin 


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daedaeg
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RE: UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:24 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 27):
How is BAE going to 'become an American company'?

http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/pro...x?Feed=FT&Date=20061023&ID=6124495

BAE's CEO has been talking about it for some time as its US operations continue to grow. There was an interview with the CEO a few months ago in Aviation Week on the prospects of BAE eventually moving its headquarters to the states and becoming an American company. I can't seem to find that particular article online. BAE is already one of the top 7 suppliers of US defense and it could eventually get 60-70% of its revenue from the Pentagon. So it's really not a surprising revelation.
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TSV
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RE: UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:55 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 22):
A F-111 would always be a much more effective strike aircraft than a F-4, but F-111 could not do anything else.

Tell that to the "club" of Mirage jockeys that were called dead in exercises without even knowing a "C" was around!

Quoting GDB (Reply 22):
Making it unaffordable for most air forces-Australia had recently got the relatively cheap Mirage III, but had the RAAF for example brought F-4's instead of Mirages, they never would have been able to buy the F-111.

Different time scales. The F-4 was not in consideration at the time of the Mirage selection.
"I told you I was ill ..." Spike Milligan
 
baroque
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RE: UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Mon Dec 25, 2006 2:07 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 28):
Do you even know what a Su-29 is ?

Yes I do, but my errant mind was debating between 27s and the various 3x numbers and settled for an rather stupid compromise! But come to think of it, it is probably too slow to be easy to hit! And there is probably still a school of thought that the Wirraway is adequate. WSC thought it would do just fine. Big grin
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:02 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 21):
Does it actually cost more than the F35s and their extra tankers and palaver? Not to mention how far an F35 can go compared with a Raptor? And how will an F35 fare if it comes across an SU29 or like type at the end of its journey?

What does it matter? The tanker infrastructure will be in place well before you get your F-35s. Here's a video of your country's first KC-30 being built (yes, a lot of it is ripped from the A346 vid.)

http://www.northropgrumman.com/kc30/video/Airbus_Timelapse_256kbps.asf

The Lightning II according to the test pilot John Beesley handles as good if not better than the F-22, so I'd imagine going up against a Flanker wouldn't be too much of a problem for an F-35 pilot, so long as he's not a greenhorn. Now an Su-29...too slow for intercept, suggest your pilots get out and walk.  Wink

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Max Q
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RE: UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Mon Jan 01, 2007 1:07 pm

As an as aside, several books I have read on the Falklands conflict by Sea Harrier pilots indicate that, in the severe weather conditions often encountered in the southern Atlantic conventional aircraft simply could not have operated much of the time.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
GDB
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RE: UK May Withdrawl From F35 Project

Mon Jan 01, 2007 8:19 pm

Very true max, but not only in poor weather either.
The planned airstrike by 500lb Snakeye retard bombs, from A-4's on the Argentine carrier, was stalled on 2nd May 1982. Then the prospect was ended for good after the southern part of the Argentine attack, when the Belgrano was sunk.
It was stalled due to very low wind over deck, the old carriers catapults could not launch a fuelled, bombed up A-4 in these conditions.
Though this was of course specific to that carrier's condition, due a new catapult for future Super Etendard operation.
The RN, later RAF Harriers on board Hermes and Invincible, had 99% availability throughout.

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