Acheron
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Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:00 am

Quote:
The Venezuelan Air Force signalled its intention to join the small club of countries that can build their own military aircraft in early December, announcing plans already under way to build a new manufacturing facility. The new facility will initially produce trainer aircraft, but an air force statement hinted at the possibility of using the manufacturing plant to build other types of aircraft, saying the facility will provide "an infrastructure, teams and indispensable tools to manufacture airplanes in the country"

Source: Jane's Defence Weekly.
 
dl021
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RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:17 pm

Yeah...this will happen....


right after the Argentines, Chileans, and Brasilians (actually the Brasilians have been selling their airplanes and should be selling them to Venezuela) sell all those airplanes they've been building.....

There's no reason for this other than Chavez is trying to institute his version of nationalist socialism by starting a military buildup and appealling to the poor of his own country by giving them someone to blame for their troubles....

[Edited 2007-01-12 04:17:54]
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DeltaGuy
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RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:39 pm

Sounds like the rise of the next hard-line communist nation. First nationalizing the utilities, now this...

I'm sure these won't be any better than the crap Iran flys.

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
Acheron
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RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Airc

Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:43 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 1):
actually the Brasilians have been selling their airplanes and should be selling them to Venezuela


We tried, but the US Goverment told Embraer to give us the finger.

So we can't build our own planes?.
And I doubt a COIN and Advanced Trainer will be a threat to anyone

Quote:
I'm sure these won't be any better than the crap Iran flys.


[Edited 2007-01-12 05:44:16]

[Edited 2007-01-12 05:45:16]
 
Lumberton
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RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:56 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 3):
We tried, but the US Goverment told Embraer to give us the finger.

Not to downplay the animosity between the US Government and President Chavez, but how can the U.S. Government dictate to Embraer? If Embraer decides not to do business with Chavez, that's their call, right?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
Lt-AWACS
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RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:05 am

Depends on the components some could be US and not allowed for export to a specific country.

Hey I used to live in Venezuela (Maracaibo) and loved it though I am sad about Chavez but that is for another thread...

I don't think this will go past the trainer stage. They can market it to Cuba and some smaller regional countries. Nothing more. Buena suerte to them Chavez can't stay around for ever.

Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
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miamiair
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RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:29 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 2):
Sounds like the rise of the next hard-line communist nation.

And it will be one of the very few if any that need to be worried about energy resources.

Let them build whatever they want, it will be better than shooting down drones in the future.
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glideslope
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RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:06 am

ROFLOL. The Hugo H1 Trainer. This guy will be lucky to be around by the time Bush leaves office.  bigthumbsup 
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:16 am

Of course this doesn't sound like a very fruitful idea, but can you really blame a country for trying to achieve a degree of technical independence in the maintenance of its air force? The replies from the US are so stereotypical.  Yeah sure US combat aircraft designs sucked until 1925 or so Big grin. Should the US have continued to buy French aircraft?

Peter
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Dougloid
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RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:45 am

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 8):
Of course this doesn't sound like a very fruitful idea, but can you really blame a country for trying to achieve a degree of technical independence in the maintenance of its air force? The replies from the US are so stereotypical. US combat aircraft designs sucked until 1925 or so . Should the US have continued to buy French aircraft?

Peter

It doesn't matter what the topic, somebody's always going to bash the US and the people in it. No matter how remote the connection or absurd the premise. I bet you're Udo in disguise.

May I say that you, sir, are as stereotypical as they come? And hardly the place to be making snotty remarks about European wars. I mean, how long did y'all last and how good was your record?

I thought so.

 talktothehand   talktothehand   talktothehand   talktothehand 
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glideslope
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RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:28 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 9):
It doesn't matter what the topic, somebody's always going to bash the US and the people in it. No matter how remote the connection or absurd the premise. I bet you're Udo in disguise.

They are not Udo. Man I miss that dude. He was like putting Mentos into Diet Coke.  Big grin

He is still here. I have a few suspects, but I'm not ready to go public. I get my daily fill of US Bashing without him.  listen 
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
dl021
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RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:47 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 3):
So we can't build our own planes?.
And I doubt a COIN and Advanced Trainer will be a threat to anyone

I never said Venezuela could not....what I said was they won't. It's a non-economically sound idea that the country really cannot afford. The Argentines and Chileans already build perfectly adequate airplanes that never sold well outside their own countries (or inside for that matter) and this won't sell outside either. The internal market is not for more than 20 or so airplanes, so why bother. They can always buy the Chinese airplanes. Not subject to US embargoes.

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 8):
The replies from the US are so stereotypical.

dude...stop the insanity

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 8):
US combat aircraft designs sucked until 1925 or so . Should the US have continued to buy French aircraft?

no, because the US could sustain an internal marketplace for aircraft construction with it's population and land size. Buying French aircraft when we had self sustaining aircraft concerns here made little sense. Economics.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 9):
May I say that you, sir, are as stereotypical as they come?

Someone should....

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 10):
He was like putting Mentos into Diet Coke.

Wow....what an image....I'm going have to work that one out of my head...
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Acheron
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RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Airc

Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:44 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
I never said Venezuela could not....what I said was they won't. It's a non-economically sound idea that the country really cannot afford. The Argentines and Chileans already build perfectly adequate airplanes that never sold well outside their own countries (or inside for that matter) and this won't sell outside either. The internal market is not for more than 20 or so airplanes, so why bother.

I could agree with you on the 20 planes if the rest of the COIN fleet was operative, but unfortunately, it isn't. Of the OV-10s, around 4 to 8(cannot give exact number)are still operative, and after the silly veto, it became a "we'll see", even though they are going through a series of modifications like adding a FLIR under a modified nose and a gunship version with a 20mm turret where the belly hardpoints used to be, but still, they can only fly for so long.

Then we have the Tucanos, slowly getting old. We tried to buy Super Tucanos to complement them but like I mentioned, DoS told Embraer to not even bother. Same for the R-99's we tried to buy. So, we can't buy from Embraer even if we tried, same for the Argentinean planes which are marketed(and owned) by Lockheed Martin. Chile probably wouldn't sell us what they build, for fear of loosing spare parts supplies for their F-16s for violating the US embargo. The russians don't make COIN Turboprops nor Advanced Trainers.
The Czech Foreign Relations Minister told Aero Vodochody not to sell us anything, because of the embargo(though they are trying to figure out a way to strip the L-159 from all the american equipment, because they want the deal). Pzl Mielec...I'd rather not ask.
Not much of a choice, as you can see, since even the P&W PT6 had to be taken out of original design because of the embargo.

The ideas in Chile and Argentina didn't work mostly because it was more profitable for the politicians' pockets to buy foreign planesss.
I believe that the idea is go the way of the Swedish, build our own planes(and maybe export it to other Mercosul countries) and don't really depend from foreign sales, and still, we are producing a vehicle similar to the HMMVW and apparently Kuwait was interested in getting a hand on several of them, so who knows.
Also, it is a civilian proyect that requested goverment funding to go ahead, and it got it, so its not an idea of the goverment itself.

Quote:
They can always buy the Chinese airplanes. Not subject to US embargoes.

We are not that desperate yet, and they don't produce turboprops either, other than Y-8/An-12 and Y-7/An-32.

It's kinda ironic, though, since the reasons for the embargo were that we weren't doing enough to fight terrorism, yet the equiment we are getting negated are mostly for COIN against the colombian guerrilla and paramilitaries and Training duties.

Quote:
They can market it to Cuba and some smaller regional countries. Nothing more. Buena suerte to them Chavez can't stay around for ever.

You never know. And I think the guy is doing a decent job, but then, depends on who you ask and where you get your info.  Silly
Nice to know you lived here, though. Part of a military agregate or family?.

[Edited 2007-01-13 07:45:15]

[Edited 2007-01-13 08:02:55]
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Sat Jan 13, 2007 6:22 pm

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 9):

Guys,

I'm not an America-basher, indeed, I deeply respect America in many ways.
I should have explained what I thought was stereotypical, and why I mentioned America in the first place. What I don't understand is why many Americans seem to feel so strong about Chavez' Venezuela. I can understand that his cheap anti-American rhetoric is annyoing, but that doesn't make him a threat in any way.

And of course starting an aircraft industry in the US in the 1920s made perfect sense, while doing it in Venezuela today doesn't sound like such a great idea. But the same was no doubt said when Embrear was set up as a Brazilian state company. IF things are done right, there's really no reason why a country like Venezuela couldn't have some sort of aircraft industry.

Peter
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Lumberton
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RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Airc

Sat Jan 13, 2007 10:34 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 12):
Pzl Mielec...I'd rather not ask.

Just as well, because:
Sikorsky Sets Up European Foothold with PZL Buy, Enters Fixed-Wing Business

[Edited 2007-01-13 14:39:07]
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
Devilfish
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RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Airc

Sun Jan 14, 2007 5:33 am

Quoting Acheron (Thread starter):
The Venezuelan Air Force signalled its intention to join the small club of countries that can build their own military aircraft in early December, announcing plans already under way to build a new manufacturing facility. The new facility will initially produce trainer aircraft,

That's intriguing since it's probably much simpler and cheaper to buy from their Russian buddies.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 12):
The russians don't make COIN Turboprops nor Advanced Trainers.

Oh, but they do. Surprising that they neglected to offer their LIFT aircraft after selling Venezuela the Su-30s.....

View Large View Medium
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Photo © Fyodor Borisov - Russian AviaPhoto Team
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Photo © Mariusz Siecinski


But one is not likely to see series production.

And they're trying to pass this off as a COIN platform.....

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Photo © Fyodor Borisov - Russian AviaPhoto Team


http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...or+counter-terrorism+missions.html

Although this looks a more promising replacement for the OV-10s.....

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Photo © Martin Rosenkranz


http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...0+for+Malaysia's+MPA+contest.html

As to the unwanted PZL Mielec, the maritime patrol and surveillance versions of the M-28 Bryza may be poor subtitutes for the R-99 especially without the PT-6 and Western avionics.....

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Photo © Ramon Berk - BerkAviation
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Photo © Piotr Marek (EPGD Spotters)


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Photo © Radoslaw Idaszak


.....but with the buyout by Sikorsky are now doubly unlikely to be a supplier. They have better chances with Beriev's 50I - provided a Russian alternate could be found for the Phalcon sensor suite.

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...gh+Business+aviation+in+brief.html

Quote:
"Russia's Beriev expects to deliver the first of three customised A-50I airborne early warning (AEW) aircraft to the Indian air force in July 2007. The Indian version incorporates Israel's Phalcon active-array radar, replacing the Russian Vega radar used on previous versions. Beriev general director Victor Kobzev says the company has won a Russian air force order for a major upgrade of in-service A-50s. Beriev is also working on an all-new aircraft, Kobzev says."


All in all, the only rationale I could think of why Venezuela plan to take this more difficult path is that their Russian friends had become merchants first, and ideological brothers last.

[Edited 2007-01-13 22:00:17]
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Acheron
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RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Sun Jan 14, 2007 9:27 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 15):
Oh, but they do. Surprising that they neglected to offer their LIFT aircraft after selling Venezuela the Su-30s.....

I meant a Turboprop Advanced Trainer. The Yak-130 is beeing studied to replace the F-5 which had to undertake improvised LIFT duties when the T-2D were retired.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 15):
Although this looks a more promising replacement for the OV-10s.....

A bit too big for an OV-10 replacement, but would be a good budget gunship, and replacement for the Arava's, denied C-295 and dishonorable retired G222.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 15):
All in all, the only rationale I could think of why Venezuela plan to take this more difficult path is that their Russian friends had become merchants first, and ideological brothers last.

No, this is not really based on ideology, but who is willing to transfer the most tech. Deals a la India.
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:23 am

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 6):
Let them build whatever they want, it will be better than shooting down drones in the future.

:D Big grin Open day in the skies and free oil to come  Wink

DeltaGuy
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Devilfish
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RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:16 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 16):

I meant a Turboprop Advanced Trainer.

Unfortunately, most turboprop advanced trainers are of the Pilatus, Socata or American persuasion.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 16):
and replacement for the Arava's,

This could also work as replacement for the Arava's.....

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Photo © Felix Goetting



Quoting Acheron (Reply 16):
denied C-295 and dishonorable retired G222.

For a good alternative to CASA's C-295 and replacement for the Alenia G222, the FAV might have to wait for this.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...A_Irkut-HAL_Takeoff_Concept_lg.jpg
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...A_Irkut-HAL_Frontal_Concept_lg.jpg
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...ctical-transport-project/index.php

Quoting Acheron (Reply 16):
but who is willing to transfer the most tech. Deals a la India.

Then the Russians had been businessmen first indeed, and the deal a commercial transaction for the most part.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Acheron
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RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:39 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 18):
This could also work as replacement for the Arava's.....

We have the shorter, PZL Mielec M-28 with PT6 engines version...yup... crying 
But then, the Arava's operate with the Army so their replacement is not that urgent.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 18):
For a good alternative to CASA's C-295 and replacement for the Alenia G222, the FAV might have to wait for this.....

The last operative G222 was lost a months ago when the left main landing gear collapsed during the take-off roll in CCS. This leaves the air force without a "medium" airlifter other than the Shorts 360, so the C-295 were urgently needed, to the point that Coaler is being considered. So not much of a time to waste.
Looks interesting, nonetheless.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 18):
Then the Russians had been businessmen first indeed, and the deal a commercial transaction for the most part.

Yes. A deal was signed with Mi so they would install a mayor maintenance and training center in the country which would do maintenance for all the Mi choppers in LatAm, with the possibility of installing a factory in the future.
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:16 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 18):
Unfortunately, most turboprop advanced trainers are of the Pilatus, Socata or American persuasion.

The PZL Orlik is pretty bad ass but then again..

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 14):
Just as well, because:
Sikorsky Sets Up European Foothold with PZL Buy, Enters Fixed-Wing Business

 Wow!  Wow!

First I've heard that. The Orlik is impressive as a 300 knot, 750shp, fully acrobatic trainer. But then again it has a PT6-25C and Hertzell prop which couldn't be imported.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:26 pm

I did some research and found that the military versions of the Orlik previously had a Motorlet Walter M601T turboprop engine with 560kW of power but has since switched to the PT-6.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
Acheron
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RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:58 am

Now that I remember, wasn't PZL part of EADS?.
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:26 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 22):
Now that I remember, wasn't PZL part of EADS?.

After a fall of communist system in 1989, the factory was renamed with its traditional name PZL "Warszawa-Okêcie". In 2001 it was bought by Spanish EADS CASA and since then is known as EADS PZL "Warszawa-Okêcie".

On January 4th 2007 Sikorsky Aircraft Corporation, a unit of United Technologies Corp. (UTX) announced plans to purchase PZL-Mielec. Papers will be signed on January 10th, 2007.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL-130_Orlik

This is the Mielec version..
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/PZL-130_Orlik_2b.jpg

And the PT-6 version..


It should be noted that the PC-7 has the same engine but is considerably heavier and conversely under 50 knots slower.

The PC-9 is just a bit faster then the Orlik as is the Texan II.

The Orlik is certainly in the same league as these others.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
TheCol
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RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:39 pm

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 2):
I'm sure these won't be any better than the crap Iran flys.

You think? Big grin

Quoting Acheron (Reply 3):
And I doubt a COIN and Advanced Trainer will be a threat to anyone

Only to the pilots that fly them.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 12):
We are not that desperate yet

Wait until the Chineese start laughing at the crap that rolls out of Hugo's factory.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 12):
It's kinda ironic, though, since the reasons for the embargo were that we weren't doing enough to fight terrorism

Pouring gas on the fire doesn't help either.  Yeah sure
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
Acheron
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RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:48 am

Quoting TheCol (Reply 24):

Such a constructive post from someone inside the project, right?.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 23):

Not much of a chance now, regardless of the engine, unless someone at Sikorsky wants to piss off someone in the US.
 
TheCol
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RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:21 am

I don't think you have thought about all the resources that are needed to get this project started. Even if Hugo can come up with the initial funds, you need a crap load of aerospace engineers to design and build these planes. Now given the fact that Chavez has totally alienated your country, chances of attracting or retaining people of the above professions to work for a federally owned corporation, is quite slim. Especially when you got a well renowned aerospace corporation, which is growing very rapidly, right beside you. Even if you guys can pull it off, your products wouldn't be good enough for markets outside of South America.

[Edited 2007-01-19 21:22:10]
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
Acheron
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RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Airc

Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:05 am

Quoting TheCol (Reply 26):
I don't think you have thought about all the resources that are needed to get this project started. Even if Hugo can come up with the initial funds, you need a crap load of aerospace engineers to design and build these planes.

Two colleges offer the Aeronautical Engineering career, and have been doing so for the last 30 years, so we do have the engineers. Most of them enlisted the Air Force, anyway.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 26):
Now given the fact that Chavez has totally alienated your country, chances of attracting or retaining people of the above professions to work for a federally owned corporation, is quite slim.

Alienated? hardly. And as a sidenote, this project was started as private what-if, which was presented to the Air Force personel and they liked the idea. So they just asked the goverment for funding which was granted through the Air Force. But most of the people working in it are civilians with no relation to the goverment nor the armed forces.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 26):
Especially when you got a well renowned aerospace corporation, which is growing very rapidly, right beside you.

If we didn't have the DoS trying to torpedo each deal we tried to get with them, perhaps.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 26):
Even if you guys can pull it off, your products wouldn't be good enough for markets outside of South America.

And who said that the point was to become a market leader of some sort?. The idea is to supply internal market and the South American market as you stated.

And one of the prototypes is being built at the moment.

[Edited 2007-01-19 23:15:10]
 
Devilfish
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RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Sun Jan 21, 2007 5:57 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 19):

We have the shorter, PZL Mielec M-28 with PT6 engines version...yup...

Ironic that the engines and avionics which probably made the Skytruck more attractive in the first place could now be the cause of its woes and why it is shunned so.

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Photo © Juan Ponce



Quoting Acheron (Reply 19):
But then, the Arava's operate with the Army so their replacement is not that urgent.

I note from the photo that the M-28 too, is operated by the Army so it must also be doing the Arava's work. What's that pannier under the belly - it's quite unique. This only picture on the database is less than a year old, so the Skytrucks, if there're more of them, must be fairly new.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 16):
but would be a good budget gunship, and replacement for the Arava's,

That would fit the Su-80 as well as the other missions mentioned in the link.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 12):
Same for the R-99's we tried to buy. So, we can't buy from Embraer even if we tried,

One possibility is to modify the An-38 and fit it with CIS sensor suites for the surveillance and ELINT roles. It could also do supplemental airlift for the Hercs, but the FAV may have to resort to older Antonovs for heavier interim lift.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 19):

Yes. A deal was signed with Mi so they would install a mayor maintenance and training center in the country which would do maintenance for all the Mi choppers in LatAm, with the possibility of installing a factory in the future.



Quoting Acheron (Reply 27):
And one of the prototypes is being built at the moment.

Interesting that they chose Mil for the venture. Of course, building turboprop trainers could be child's play for a manufacturer renowned for advanced rotorcraft.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Acheron
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RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:53 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 28):
Ironic that the engines and avionics which probably made the Skytruck more attractive in the first place could now be the cause of its woes and why it is shunned so.

Indeed, but as far as I know, the Skytrucks are doing fine, for now.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 28):
I note from the photo that the M-28 too, is operated by the Army so it must also be doing the Arava's work. What's that pannier under the belly - it's quite unique. This only picture on the database is less than a year old, so the Skytrucks, if there're more of them, must be fairly new.

Its cargo bin for lugage(present in the units that do most of the logistical activities) but can easily be converted for paradropping, and yes, it was originally meant to replace the Arava's but they realized it would reduce paradropping capabilities.
They were bought in 1997-1998, but under shady circumstances. It was later found out that they were bought with an overprice of 100%.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 28):
That would fit the Su-80 as well as the other missions mentioned in the link.

Yes, would be a matter of asking the russians if its capable of carrying the necesary equipment and if they are willing to do it.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 28):
One possibility is to modify the An-38 and fit it with CIS sensor suites for the surveillance and ELINT roles. It could also do supplemental airlift for the Hercs, but the FAV may have to resort to older Antonovs for heavier interim lift.

Interesting idea, but don't know how the Russians are in ELINT and CIS material, any thoughts?.
As for the Hercs, they still have some life in them. 3 of them were upgraded by SAGEM(MFD's, FDC, wiring, etc. Until SAGEM was told to stop working on them because of the embargo). There has been some strong rumors that we were going to provide the necesary funding(and revive, heh) to complete the R&D of the An-70, but haven't heard anything else.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 28):
Interesting that they chose Mil for the venture.

Seeing the decent amounts of Mil material in South America(and more to come in the shape of Mi-17 and Mi-35M for Brazil, and Mi-35 for Argentina), not that surprising.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 28):
Of course, building turboprop trainers could be child's play for a manufacturer renowned for advanced rotorcraft.

No, Mil is not building the prototype  Silly, but the company I mentioned before. I'll try to get a snap of one of the designs. They are not pretty, but its what one could call "form following function".
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:17 am

The key to the success or failure of this project is going to be 1) will the aircraft be certified as a civilian model and 2) is it going to have Russian engines?

In all probability if the project ever gets going it'll start with kit built or license built something or others....perhaps Russian or otherwise....something that already has an FAA TC would be nice, such as the Harbin Y12. We need Twin Otter clones.

There's the relationship with Iran to consider as well. I mean, I like Hugo as well as anyone else but he's terribly naive and mad for power...Venezuela may just be trading one 800 pound gorilla for another....

We've recently heard that there's a package of legislation pending that would give him plenary power to make law himself and institute it without the advice and consent of anyone....that can't be good. It sounds like Germany all over again.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
CTR
Posts: 299
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:57 am

RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:20 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
Of the OV-10s, around 4 to 8(cannot give exact number)are still operative, and after the silly veto, it became a "we'll see", even though they are going through a series of modifications like adding a FLIR under a modified nose and a gunship version with a 20mm turret where the belly hardpoints used to be, but still, they can only fly for so long.

If Hugo was truly serious about building an infrastructure in Venezuela capable of producing aircraft, he would be willing to take baby steps first.

Why not reverse engineer the OV-10s? It worked for Russia with the Boeing B-29 and is currently being done by Iran with the Bell 204. This would provide a low risk logical first step to designing and building more advanced aircraft in the future. There is also the financial possibility of selling spares to other countries still flying the OV-10.

Hugo however would rather brag about a capability that won't exist for a decade or more, than give the impression to the world that Venezuela can only copy a 20 year old US aircraft design.

Not that politicians in any other country are any smarter when it comes to developing their aerospace capability.

Have fun,

CTR
Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
 
Acheron
Topic Author
Posts: 1832
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:59 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 30):
The key to the success or failure of this project is going to be 1) will the aircraft be certified as a civilian model and 2) is it going to have Russian engines?

The only civilian model I've seen so far is a single-engine turboprop(similar to the Tucano, but with a twin tail) for civilian Flight schools.
Russian and European engines are in the mix.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 30):
There's the relationship with Iran to consider as well. I mean, I like Hugo as well as anyone else but he's terribly naive and mad for power...Venezuela may just be trading one 800 pound gorilla for another....

I agree that he can be very naive and trust people too much, but mad for power?. Hardly.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 30):
We've recently heard that there's a package of legislation pending that would give him plenary power to make law himself and institute it without the advice and consent of anyone....that can't be good. It sounds like Germany all over again.

Not really. The only power that the "Ley Habilitante" gives is to aprove laws that are already in discussion(they must be already aproved for discussion) in the congress but got put in the backburner(i.e the actual discussion and aproval of them is a few years away). Most of the laws that are going to get aproved by this method are related to nationalizacions already mentioned in the news and some related to the military service(disciplanary actions, an updated version of the old Armed Forces law, social security related stuff, etc).

Quoting CTR (Reply 31):
If Hugo was truly serious about building an infrastructure in Venezuela capable of producing aircraft, he would be willing to take baby steps first.

Not really his idea. This one started as a private project and was presented to several Air Force officers. That's how it got the funding and the go-ahead.

Quoting CTR (Reply 31):
Why not reverse engineer the OV-10s? It worked for Russia with the Boeing B-29 and is currently being done by Iran with the Bell 204. This would provide a low risk logical first step to designing and building more advanced aircraft in the future. There is also the financial possibility of selling spares to other countries still flying the OV-10.

One of the planes is similar to the OV-10, but with a gull wing and a B-25-like tail. And at the moment the remaining OV-10's are too valuable to be taken out of service just to be disassembled, and that requires Air Force aproval, and they are not very kind of the idea of giving their planes away like that.
 
Devilfish
Posts: 5220
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Airc

Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:15 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 29):

No, Mil is not building the prototype, but the company I mentioned before.

Could it be this one...or someone else? Chinese?

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Photo © Sergey Riabsev - Russian AviaPhoto Team


http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=255

"The Il-103 is one of the Russian aerospace industry's first attempts at designing and building a light aircraft for both eastern and western certification. ..... The Il-103 was originally conceived in response to a Russian requirement for 500 military and civil basic trainers."

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Photo © Carlos F

tandem seat, piston, aerobatic

So, they're also making them, after all. It's likely that they also have Russian engines and avionics for those.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 32):
Russian and European engines are in the mix.



Quoting Acheron (Reply 29):
Interesting idea, but don't know how the Russians are in ELINT and CIS material, any thoughts?.

They may not even have to go to all that trouble because there's this.....

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Photo © Fyodor Borisov - Russian AviaPhoto Team



http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=256

Quote:
"The Il-114P is a military maritime patrol variant while the Il-114FK is designed for elint, reconnaissance and cartographic work and would feature a glazed nose and raised flightdeck. ..... The Il-114T is a freighter developed for Uzbekistan Airlines. It is fitted with a 3.31 x 1.78m (10ft 10in x 5ft 10in) freight door in the rear port fuselage and a removable roller floor. ..... The Il-114M will feature more powerful TV7M117 engines and increased max takeoff weight allowing a payload of 7000kg (15,430lb) to be carried."


Considering the advanced state of the Russian aviation industry, there's little reason that their ISR platforms should lag behind.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
PPVRA
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RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:48 am

I think we went for Mil choppers to off-set our trade deficit with Russia. Trade negotiations with Russia are always on the table.

Also, they are cheaper, and afaik there is at least one Russian chopper in operation in Brazil. . . private company I think.

They (or at least that model) were certified a couple years ago, iirc.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Dougloid
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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:38 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 32):
Not really. The only power that the "Ley Habilitante" gives is to aprove laws that are already in discussion(they must be already aproved for discussion) in the congress but got put in the backburner(i.e the actual discussion and aproval of them is a few years away). Most of the laws that are going to get aproved by this method are related to nationalizacions already mentioned in the news and some related to the military service(disciplanary actions, an updated version of the old Armed Forces law, social security related stuff, etc).

Sorry, sir. That's a grant of unlimited, unregulated, and uncontrollable power to enact anything he's got a mind to do. What if Hugo decrees "Anyone who disagrees with me gets life in prison!"

where's your protection from governmental abuses of power?

that is what we call putting the fox in charge of the henhouse. Have you not heard as Lord Acton says, "Absolute power corrupts absolutely"?

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=2187

Says the following.

"1. Enabling law (ley habilitante), which Chavez referred to as the “mother law” of the project. This law would allow Chavez, over the period of one year, to pass laws on specified issues as decrees. This type of law has been given to Venezuelan presidents on several occasions before, such as during the first presidency of Carlos Andrés Perez (1974-1979) and early in Chavez’s presidency, following the passage of the 1999 constitution, to bring the country’s laws up to date to the new constitution.

Chavez said that part of this enabling law would be the nationalization of key industries that had been privatized under previous governments, such as the telecommunications company CANTV and the electricity companies. “All of that which was privatized, let it be nationalized,” said Chavez.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
TheCol
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Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:30 am

RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:36 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 27):

Two colleges offer the Aeronautical Engineering career, and have been doing so for the last 30 years, so we do have the engineers. Most of them enlisted the Air Force, anyway.

Yeah, but the best and brightest of these bunch will demand competitive wages and benefits to work there. That would be difficult due to what other aerospace companies pay.

Keep in mind that those other companies will try everything in the book to choke out their new competition. I imagine that would be rather easy for them, especially if initial funds are coming from taxpayers.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
AerospaceFan
Posts: 6990
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RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Tue Jan 23, 2007 2:23 pm

I wonder how long Chavez thinks he's going to be in power. As long as Castro? I don't think so.

If he's still President of Venezuela ten years from now, I'd be a bit surprised. But this is the timescale that a serious aircraft industry would take even to begin to take off.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it's quite possible that Venezuelan initiatives of today under Chavez will fizzle out once the economics of the matter regain their sway.

If it's cheaper for a large and advanced country like Canada to buy F-18's from the United States, it seems to make sense that Venezuela eventually will do so, as well.

That's just from my layman's point of view.
What's fair is fair.
 
Devilfish
Posts: 5220
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Airc

Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:20 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 32):

The only civilian model I've seen so far is a single-engine turboprop(similar to the Tucano, but with a twin tail) for civilian Flight schools.

Yakovlev used to talk about a Yak-152 prop trainer but it seems to have fizzled out. Iran has advanced jet trainer prototypes with butterfly tail fins.....

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iran/shafaq.htm

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 30):

There's the relationship with Iran to consider as well.

With the current warm relations between the two countries, is it possible that the butterfly tail configuration found its way to a turboprop trainer version in Venezuela?

Quoting Acheron (Reply 19):
so the C-295 were urgently needed, to the point that Coaler is being considered.

The situation must be serious indeed for this to be considered.....

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Photo © Stefan Welsch


But the following is a consummation devoutly to be avoided.....

Quoting Acheron (Reply 29):
There has been some strong rumors that we were going to provide the necesary funding(and revive, heh) to complete the R&D of the An-70,


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Photo © Oleg V. Belyakov


If four industrialised nations who have a leading aerospace company are hard pressed to put a very similar airlifter in service, Venezuela, even with its oil production, would just as soon find that commiting to that project is like sinking into a bottomless money pit.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 29):
but haven't heard anything else.

Just as well, for it's something you'd wish only on your worst enemies.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 19):
So not much of a time to waste.

Better invest in a derivative of this.....

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Photo © Anton Dovbush

or this
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Photo © Trevor Thornton


if they couldn't wait for this.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...23/211661/india-closes-on-mta.html

[Edited 2007-01-23 09:44:32]
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Acheron
Topic Author
Posts: 1832
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:06 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 34):
I think we went for Mil choppers to off-set our trade deficit with Russia. Trade negotiations with Russia are always on the table.

Also, they are cheaper, and afaik there is at least one Russian chopper in operation in Brazil. . . private company I think.

Well, someone has to do the maintenance, and would be cheaper to send them across the border than put them on a ship and send them on a trip to Russia.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 35):
Sorry, sir. That's a grant of unlimited, unregulated, and uncontrollable power to enact anything he's got a mind to do.

Eh, the National Assembly its working to put limitations to it and remove any possible ambiguety.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 35):
What if Hugo decrees "Anyone who disagrees with me gets life in prison!"

where's your protection from governmental abuses of power?

If he really wanted to do so, there are more efficient and quicker ways and would have been taken a long time ago. Why bother going through all the trouble of a coup, a general strike that made the economy lose billions, several electoral procedures against him and riots that caused large sums in damage?.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 36):
Yeah, but the best and brightest of these bunch will demand competitive wages and benefits to work there. That would be difficult due to what other aerospace companies pay.

Problem is that for you to go work overseas on your own, you must validate your courses, and if they require a subject you didn't take back home, you must go back to college to see that particular course, and not many are willing to do so. And for a project like this, I presume the company will pay good money.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 36):
Keep in mind that those other companies will try everything in the book to choke out their new competition. I imagine that would be rather easy for them, especially if initial funds are coming from taxpayers.

Tax money is really small part of the goverment income(actually, most of it never goes to the central goverment) and they are not that high and not that many.
Most of it will probably come from the excess income in oil revenue(national budget is calculated with a reference oil price of $24 per barrel to minimize the economic effect of a sudden crash in oil prices).

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 37):
wonder how long Chavez thinks he's going to be in power. As long as Castro? I don't think so.

Until the people decide to vote him out of office for a succesor different from his line or when the opposition manages to put out a decent candidate with actual offers and solutions, and is capable of dragging Chavez' suporters.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 37):
Maybe I'm wrong, but it's quite possible that Venezuelan initiatives of today under Chavez will fizzle out once the economics of the matter regain their sway.

They might fizzle but not because of economic matters but because of the little interest of developing a national industry of any kind inside the opposition.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 37):
If it's cheaper for a large and advanced country like Canada to buy F-18's from the United States, it seems to make sense that Venezuela eventually will do so, as well.

Yes, but the problem comes when your likely candidates are not for sale to you.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 38):
Iran has advanced jet trainer prototypes with butterfly tail fins.....

I don't know about that one, looks interesting but not fond with the idea of Iranian planes...

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 38):
If four industrialised nations who have a leading aerospace company are hard pressed to put a very similar airlifter in service, Venezuela, even with its oil production, would just as soon find that commiting to that project is like sinking into a bottomless money pit.

Indeed, thats why I said it was rumour...hopefully...

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 38):
Better invest in a derivative of this.....
or this

Heard something about an MPA version of the An-140. Problem is the lack of rear ramp.

This should give you a rough(early concept drawing) idea of how one of the designs looks like.
 
Devilfish
Posts: 5220
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Airc

Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:46 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 39):
Heard something about an MPA version of the An-140. Problem is the lack of rear ramp.

The database mentions a future An-142 version with a rear freight ramp that could be the basis for an MPA. A 1996 agreement for license-assembly of an Iranian version of the An-140 is also mentioned.....

http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=405

Quote:
"and the An-142 with a rear loading freight ramp. Military versions are also planned."


The An-148 could work as an ISR platform.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 39):

This should give you a rough(early concept drawing) idea of how one of the designs looks like.

That's a mean looking (COIN?) turboprop.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Acheron
Topic Author
Posts: 1832
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Airc

Sun Feb 11, 2007 8:36 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 40):

Well, now the rumours switched to Il-76 and Il-78, the latter make more sense since we only have two KC-707 and one of them its maintenance.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 40):
That's a mean looking (COIN?) turboprop.

That one is for Maritime Patrol, but there are several versions, since the plan is a single basic design to cover several roles.









This is an advanced trainer/COIN a la Tucano.



 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Sun Feb 11, 2007 8:43 am

I think I like the designs, but they seem to be straying a bit from the "KISS" principal with the design of the wing.

I would think a nice Hersey Bar wing and tailsurfaces interchangeable from left to right would be more appropriate.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
TheCol
Posts: 1857
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:30 am

RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:26 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 39):
Problem is that for you to go work overseas on your own, you must validate your courses, and if they require a subject you didn't take back home, you must go back to college to see that particular course, and not many are willing to do so.

That's why most people plan ahead for that, considering that there are more lucrative employers internationally. I doubt a local company like Embraer would be any different.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 39):
Most of it will probably come from the excess income in oil revenue

In the grand scheme of things, only a portion of that revenue will fund this venture. Plus there's the issue of turning a profit to make such funding viable.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 39):
I presume the company will pay good money.

Possibly, but until they make a substantial profit, the company will not be able to be as flexible in the budget.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
Devilfish
Posts: 5220
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Airc

Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:23 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 41):
and Il-78, the latter make more sense since we only have two KC-707 and one of them its maintenance.

The Il-78 Midas would surely make a huge difference.....

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I could have sworn I read in Defense Industry Daily yesterday about another batch of 10 or so Mil Mi-35 Caribe attack helos destined for Venezuela with accompanying pictures. But the news item seems to have been pulled out as I can't find it now.

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Photo © Jorge Oppenheimer



Quoting L-188 (Reply 42):
I think I like the designs, but they seem to be straying a bit from the "KISS" principal with the design of the wing.

I think so too. Is the bent wing configuration absolutely necessary?

[Edited 2007-02-11 03:28:07]
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Acheron
Topic Author
Posts: 1832
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RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:06 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 42):
but they seem to be straying a bit from the "KISS" principal with the design of the wing.

Well, the designs are bit old now, who knows if they have kept the shape of the wings.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 44):
The Il-78 Midas would surely make a huge difference.....

Indeed. And the rumour mill keeps spinning, now about An-140's and An-74(in numbers as insane as +30, so take it with a grain of salt) with a large chunk of them going to the Army.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 44):
I could have sworn I read in Defense Industry Daily yesterday about another batch of 10 or so Mil Mi-35 Caribe attack helos destined for Venezuela with accompanying pictures. But the news item seems to have been pulled out as I can't find it now.

When the deal was signed, besides the current 10 in service, there was the option to buy more(10-20 more) to be used in the next few years. A source(this one is quite reliable) mentioned that the Army is studying to acquire a compliment for the Hinds of 10 Mi-28N once the production starts in a year.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 43):
In the grand scheme of things, only a portion of that revenue will fund this venture. Plus there's the issue of turning a profit to make such funding viable.

Yeah, but we would need to find out of if they really expect to make a profit on international sales on these earlies models.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 43):
Possibly, but until they make a substantial profit, the company will not be able to be as flexible in the budget.

We would also need to see the budget assigned to it, but its handed with so much secrecy, its hard to gey any info on it, other than the concept drawings you see.
 
Devilfish
Posts: 5220
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Airc

Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:35 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 45):
And the rumour mill keeps spinning, now about An-140's

Variants of the An-140 would make sense, but Ukraine might require huge financing to develop the designs. If anything, it could be a toss-up with the proposed Il-112V (which was selected by Russia.)

Quoting Acheron (Reply 45):
When the deal was signed, besides the current 10 in service, there was the option to buy more(10-20 more) to be used in the next few years.

Now I remember reading the news in AFM. The Jan 07 Air International also reported that in addition to the Mi-17 Parane, another two Mi-26 Perom (Halo) heavylift helos are planned after the first.....

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.....which also has a tanker version under study.....

http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=281

Quote:
"versions have been developed or proposed. These include the basic freighter Mi26T, Mi26A with automated approach and descent avionics, Mi26MS medevac version, Mi26P 63 passenger airliner, Mi26TM flying crane with undernose gondola to allow supervision of sling operations, and Mi26TZ fuel tanker."


Quoting Acheron (Reply 45):
A source(this one is quite reliable) mentioned that the Army is studying to acquire a compliment for the Hinds of 10 Mi-28N once the production starts in a year.

However, this as much as the rest, are all plans.

But with the above and the 23 Skytrucks, the long-serving Aravas may be given a rest.....

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"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Acheron
Topic Author
Posts: 1832
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RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:50 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 46):
Variants of the An-140 would make sense, but Ukraine might require huge financing to develop the designs. If anything, it could be a toss-up with the proposed Il-112V (which was selected by Russia.)

As unexpected it might be, there is an An-140 at the moment in La Carlota. I didn't see that one coming...

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 46):
Now I remember reading the news in AFM. The Jan 07 Air International also reported that in addition to the Mi-17 Parane, another two Mi-26 Perom (Halo) heavylift helos are planned after the first

The original order was of 30 something helos, 19 Mi-17V5, 10 Mi-35M2 and 1 Mi-26 with options to several more. Then it was expanded to 53 with more Mi-17, Mi-35 and 2 or 3 extra Mi-26's.
And the names are Panare for the Mi-17, Caribe for the Mi-35 and Pemon for the Mi-26.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 46):

.....which also has a tanker version under study....

Thats interesting, but what kind of tanker since the only pics I seem to find are of fuel tanks inside the cargo bay.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 46):

But with the above and the 23 Skytrucks, the long-serving Aravas may be given a rest....

The Aravas might be used for some experimentation.
 
Devilfish
Posts: 5220
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Airc

Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:50 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 45):
the Army is studying to acquire a compliment for the Hinds of 10 Mi-28N once the production starts in a year.

The night attack helo Mi-28N would provide serious firepower if that pushes through.....

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.....although it might be a little overkill given the Mi-35 Caribes already in FAV service.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 47):
As unexpected it might be, there is an An-140 at the moment in La Carlota.

For a demonstration? What variant? Is it this aircraft?.....

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Photo © Alexandr Zhukov


Here is an airliner cockpit photo.....

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Photo © Youri Kabernik



Quoting Acheron (Reply 47):
And the names are Panare for the Mi-17, Caribe for the Mi-35 and Pemon for the Mi-26.

My bad. I'm not familiar with the regions or their "idiomas".

Quoting Acheron (Reply 47):
but what kind of tanker since the only pics I seem to find are of fuel tanks inside the cargo bay

Sorry, I'm also searching.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 47):
The Aravas might be used for some experimentation.

ELINT, gunship, recon or patrol?
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Acheron
Topic Author
Posts: 1832
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RE: Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft

Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:46 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 48):
The night attack helo Mi-28N would provide serious firepower if that pushes through.....

Indeed, would look cool with the Army colours, though.  bigthumbsup 

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 48):


.....although it might be a little overkill given the Mi-35 Caribes already in FAV service.

It's the Army, not the Air Force who operates the Hinds.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 48):
For a demonstration? What variant? Is it this aircraft?...

Probably a demo flight, yes, I'll try to get more info, though.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 48):
Here is an airliner cockpit photo...

So far, apparently Thales will be the one to equip the cockpits of whatever plane is selected(at least for the FAV).
The rumour speaks of 35 An-140(most of them for the Army, I think) and 35 An-74(thats why I said of taking it with a grain of salt, since that's quite a lot of airplanes), and he An-74 part might include several MPA for the Navy.
Seems that the plan is to phase out Aravas, Skytrucks, G222(they phased themselves out, anyway) and Aviocars(including the ASW versions) with a single supplier to reduce costs and logistic issues across the armed forces.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 48):
My bad. I'm not familiar with the regions or their "idiomas"

They are not really regions nor languages(per se), those are the name of local indian tribes(only the Pemon still exists, I believe). Sort of like how the US names helos as Kiowa, Apache, Comanche, etc. Wink

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 48):

Gunship.

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