army15p
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:37 am

It Sure Is Different In The Air Force

Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:08 pm

We had a few Mountain Home F-15E overnight last night due to an inflight, and they departed this morning. Since they were new faces to the area I did a little research into their home station and I came across this little tidbit of fact

http://www.mountainhome.af.mil/photos/index.asp?page=6

I've never heard of this practice, was wondering if anybody could shed some light on it.
From the MO website

Quote:
General Seip is the 12th Air Force commander and chose Mountain Home Air Force Base to house his jet. The jet recently underwent a week-long process to install the necessary Federal Aviation Administration markings following the aircraft being repainted.

Is life that good in the Air Force that Generals are assigned their own personal F-15E? I mean I know that basically Army Generals are assigned Hawks, but I've never heard of one being personalized. What rank does one need to achieve to get tasked a multi-million dollar attack aircraft, brigadier general at the least, or is it only reserved for the top echelon generals? And what is the need for the addition of FAA markings? Would anyone with better knowledge be able to provide a picture of an aircraft like this paint scheme.
 
f4wso
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RE: It Sure Is Different In The Air Force

Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:57 pm

It is more an airframe with his personal markings, ie. his name on the canopy rail, 12th AF emblem, etc, selected from all of the units assigned to 12th Air Force. It will not be for his exclusive use. I am not sure what the "addition of FAA markings" involves since it should have the standard serial and national markings. This may be a disconnect between the Public Affairs person and interviewee.

Gary
Cottage Grove, MN, USA
Seeking an honest week's pay for an honest day's work
 
wingnut135
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RE: It Sure Is Different In The Air Force

Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:18 pm

At least it's an E model on a base where they have E models. When Gen Folgesong was USAFE commander he had his private F-16 moved to Ramstien. A couple of C-130 crew chiefs from Ramstein were trained on how to be F-16 crew chiefs so they could take care of his aircraft. He and his vice both had F-16s there. That man used his F-16 to fly everywhere. I know RHIP, but damn, can you say fraud waste and abuse? Oh wait, they're Generals.  irked 

Wingnut
A good friend will get you out of jail. A real friend will be there with you saying, "Damn that was fun!"
 
SlamClick
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RE: It Sure Is Different In The Air Force

Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:46 am

A select few flag officer positions in the services permit the occupant to stay on flying status. If you are on flying status you must fly to maintain currency and your hazardous duty (flight) pay. If the man, as a major, light colonel, and colonel flew F-15s then gets his star(s) and retains flight status to command large numbers of F-15s what would you suggest he keep his currency in? A C-12?

Quoting F4wso (Reply 1):
This may be a disconnect between the Public Affairs person and interviewee.

Right. I'm pretty sure they didn't give it an N-number and register it in his name. I don't expect to see it in the Air Races in Reno this September.

Quoting Wingnut135 (Reply 2):
That man used his F-16 to fly everywhere.

If you have some evidence that he took it on fishing trips that is one thing. Flag officers do have to attend meetings.

Quoting Wingnut135 (Reply 2):
can you say fraud waste and abuse?

More to the point, can you prove fraud, waste or abuse?

Fraud: Was the person in question actually the general he claimed to be?

Waste: If the general needed to be in Madrid and needed to maintain proficiency and currency in an airplane for which he was a qualified pilot (as required by AFRegs), why not combine these two things. Otherwise it is an airline ticket (wasteful when we have our own planes) or taking some other officer (or two or more) and some other airplane away from other duties to fly him down there - billet them, feed them, pay them per diem task some other person with covering their duties while they are away and so on.

Abuse: Only if the trip in question was not in the interest of the United States. I'd hazard a guess that most of the travel a general in Europe does begins with an interest in our State Department, migrates over to DoD, then the Air Force and finally our representative in the area is selected.

Quoting Wingnut135 (Reply 2):
Oh wait, they're Generals.

Yes, and we are not. I can recall an Army 4-star flying around in a C-54 that took a crew of about 7 people to support, plus a small Army of local station personnel. It dripped oil all over the ramp too! I've seen a California Senator and famous anti-smoking activist being flown around in Phillip Morris tobacco company's Gulfstream II. I think that might come closer to the accusations you sling than an Air Force general flying an Air Force jet for which he is a rated pilot.

Even when I was an enlisted man I was pretty sure that most enlisted gripes have very little basis in fact.

edit: And YES it IS very different in the Air Force.

[Edited 2007-01-11 17:47:39]
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
2H4
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RE: It Sure Is Different In The Air Force

Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:22 am




Quoting SlamClick (Reply 3):
I don't expect to see it in the Air Races in Reno this September.

Pity....  Wink

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 3):
If you have some evidence that he took it on fishing trips that is one thing.

======================================================

NASA Chief Under Fire For Personal Shuttle Use

CAPE CANAVERAL, FL—NASA Administrator Michael Griffin has yet to respond to recent allegations that he used NASA space shuttles on as many as one dozen unauthorized outings to such destinations as New York City, the French Riviera, and his vacation home near Ketchum, ID.


Griffin plays the Pebble Beach course minutes after blasting off from his Idaho vacation home.


Full text at http://www.theonion.com/content/node/41904

======================================================

 Wink


2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
army15p
Posts: 25
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RE: It Sure Is Different In The Air Force

Fri Jan 12, 2007 5:11 am

I'd like to just make a point that I'm not objecting to the Generals aircraft at all, just that I was curious about the practice, and what it detailed. I have no problem at all with providing an aviator the means to stay current in his preferred airframe. I'm quite familiar with Army units that support the VIP mission, its just that as I said we do it differently.
 
wingnut135
Posts: 124
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RE: It Sure Is Different In The Air Force

Fri Jan 12, 2007 5:50 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 3):
Flag officers do have to attend meetings.

Sorry if I didn't put it that way, but that is what I meant.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 3):
Even when I was an enlisted man I was pretty sure that most enlisted gripes have very little basis in fact.

And yes, I do have issues with what privileges generals do get, and no, this isn't an enlisted man's baseless gripe. A flag officer at that level lives in government housing, has a staff car at his disposal (yes, for official use only), and has everything he needs and then some to do his job (my wife worked for a two star, so there is my basis). "Should I waste my gas going to work today or should I use my GOV?" And he receives a salary that all he does is invest with, he doesn't need to spend it on himself for necessities. That's all provided by Joe Taxpayer trying to make ends meet. Millions unemployed ( http://www.bls.gov/cps/ ), uninsured Americans can't get government help because the money isn't there. Social Security? Like I'll see it. The AF is cutting over 50,000 people due to budget constraints; for 2007 almost AF wide housing pay dropped only for junior enlisted, it went up for SNCOs and officers; and we can't get parts for airplanes because there isn't money to get a contract for someone to manufacture it. I can't get a desk calendar, but someone can take a war asset out of play so he can go fly it once a month to a meeting? That's why we have C-20s, -21s, -37s, far cheaper to maintain and operate. On the plus side it will keep the FMC rate up for MOs F-15Es.

So you're right, it isn't FWA, because they're generals. Want to save money in the military, trim the fat off the top.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 4):
NASA Chief Under Fire For Personal Shuttle Use

Fantastic!!!  bigthumbsup 

Wingnut
A good friend will get you out of jail. A real friend will be there with you saying, "Damn that was fun!"
 
SlamClick
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RE: It Sure Is Different In The Air Force

Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:16 am

Quoting Wingnut135 (Reply 6):
And he receives a salary that all he does is invest with, he doesn't need to spend it on himself for necessities.

Do you think that is confined to the military? Hey, it sucks being poor anywhere. That is why some people go to college and learn to do things that 98% of the population cannot do. The rest accept it or gripe about it.

My brother spent 26 years on active duty and retired a master sergeant. He'd turned down promotion to E-9 because it is outside the AFSC he had cultured for his entire career. He was good at what he did and he enjoyed it. At 26 years he retired and took an Air Force civil service job. It was like an instant promotion to three-star pay and a real eye--opener for him.

He suddenly realized that the generals he'd known made less money than the GS' he'd known.

Man Commands fifteen thousand personnel and a few billion in assets in the military and makes $150K a year. Same amount of responsibilty in the private sector and they might make that much a month. As an airline pilot I made more than an Air Force general commanding a thousand men like me. Oh, I invested a huge percentage of it too. Wouldn't you?

Did you catch the executive getting fired last week and getting $210 million as a firing bonus?

Military is a bargain by comparison.

The only thing I ever got chap-assed about was flight pay. As a warrant it was my job to keep the colonel from killing himself. I flew 110 hours a month and got $110 a month in flight pay. $1 per hour. He flew four hours a month with me hovering over the controls and got $240 a month in flight pay. $1 a minute! I never begrudge his base pay, his perks or his staff car but the flight pay pissed me right off.

my gripe
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
Devilfish
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RE: It Sure Is Different In The Air Force

Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:46 am

Quoting Wingnut135 (Reply 6):
(yes, for official use only)

I'd seen some of those with the word "only" crossed out, and "also" scrawled on top.  Wink and not necessarily in the Air Force.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
FlyUSCG
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RE: It Sure Is Different In The Air Force

Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:33 am

Guy I tailgate with at USC games is a professional artist. Did all the ninja turtle toy boxes, cover from "Island of the blue dolphins" and a ton other. But once a year, he makes a trip to an AFB to take photos and such and then he does paintings for the Air Force. Well one year he got to see the CO's personal F-16 (or -15, i dont remember). And he had had the CANNON CHROME PLATED!!
Go Trojans! Fight On!
 
Ozair
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RE: It Sure Is Different In The Air Force

Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 7):
Man Commands fifteen thousand personnel and a few billion in assets in the military and makes $150K a year. Same amount of responsibilty in the private sector and they might make that much a month. As an airline pilot I made more than an Air Force general commanding a thousand men like me. Oh, I invested a huge percentage of it too. Wouldn't you?

Listening to a news story on NPR the other day it spoke of generals getting approx 9 times the wage of a private. Compared to the private sector where the minimum for a similar position of leadership was 33 times the base wage and certainly a lot higher than that in most places!

As a soon to be RAAF officer I am not too unhappy with the propect of my own plane either  Wink (of course we would need to buy a few more before that happened!)
 
wingnut135
Posts: 124
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RE: It Sure Is Different In The Air Force

Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:48 am

Ok, this got off topic, sorry Army15P.

My point is that just because he's a general he should not be able to pull an operational war asset just so he can go fly to meetings or whatever a couple times a month. Which is cheaper? The couple thousand pounds of fuel and man hours to maintain the aircraft, or two tanks of gas and a couple hundred miles on the Ford? That is why I personally see it as a FWA issue. We (maintenance) had issues with our wing king taking the wing flagship to go to a meeting a couple of months ago. From Seymour Johnson to Pope, about an hour by car, with traffic.

If his time and distance are an issue, the call AMC and get a ride.

If he needs to keep his hours up then he can take a slot in the regular flying schedule. I'm sure scheduling will make a slot for him.

Wingnut
A good friend will get you out of jail. A real friend will be there with you saying, "Damn that was fun!"
 
AFHokie
Posts: 220
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 3:29 am

RE: It Sure Is Different In The Air Force

Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:19 am

Quoting Wingnut135 (Reply 6):
AF wide housing pay dropped only for junior enlisted, it went up for SNCOs and officers;

I'm an officer and for my location it went down. BTW BAH is not set by the AF.

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 9):
Guy I tailgate with at USC games is a professional artist. Did all the ninja turtle toy boxes, cover from "Island of the blue dolphins" and a ton other. But once a year, he makes a trip to an AFB to take photos and such and then he does paintings for the Air Force. Well one year he got to see the CO's personal F-16 (or -15, i dont remember). And he had had the CANNON CHROME PLATED!!

The A-10 demo team birds have their cannon's chromed. From your location I'm guessing he was at Davis-Mothan in AZ. The west coast A-10 demo team is from there.

Quoting Wingnut135 (Reply 11):
If he needs to keep his hours up then he can take a slot in the regular flying schedule. I'm sure scheduling will make a slot for him.

I think they did...
 
FlyUSCG
Posts: 520
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:29 pm

RE: It Sure Is Different In The Air Force

Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:05 am

Quoting AFHokie (Reply 12):
From your location I'm guessing he was at Davis-Mothan in AZ.

He said it was an F-16. The Air Force sends him to random bases anywhere in the country once a year. So it could have been anywhere. And he said it was the Wing Commanders (or someone high up enough to have their "own" plane) plane.
Go Trojans! Fight On!
 
bhill
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RE: It Sure Is Different In The Air Force

Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:27 am

Slam...spot on, I don't know about you folks, but would you want to sign for 15,000 men and all to the TO&E to keep them operational? If the CO wants to stay combat effective..and willing to put himself in harms way when live ammo starts flying AND setting an example for his junior officers to "walk the talk" good for him/her..rather than being chairborne in the Puzzle Palace, at least he will have his "side arm" handy when he is away if the need arises. For 150K a year? At Ease!!
Carpe Pices
 
jutes85
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RE: It Sure Is Different In The Air Force

Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:22 pm

What is the ratio for aircraft to pilots in the USAF? I'm guessing it is pretty close to 1:1.
nothing
 
f4wso
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RE: It Sure Is Different In The Air Force

Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:30 am

It is closer to 1.5 to 2.0 ratio depending on the unit's manning document.

Gary
Cottage Grove, MN, USA
Seeking an honest week's pay for an honest day's work

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