Blackbird1331
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F22 Foreign Sales?

Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:48 am

I just read an article in Aviation Week about the F22 Raptor. What a fantastic plane. In a recent wargame they had a 144-0 kill rate. How many nations would we sell this to? Will there come a time when the United States comes up with a plane that we will not sell, even to our closest allies? Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think we sold the U2 or SR71 to other nations,and I think the SR71 was classifed as a fighter, but not used for conventional warfare as the Raptor would be.
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atmx2000
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:51 am

Quoting Blackbird1331 (Thread starter):
I just read an article in Aviation Week about the F22 Raptor. What a fantastic plane. In a recent wargame they had a 144-0 kill rate. How many nations would we sell this to? Will there come a time when the United States comes up with a plane that we will not sell, even to our closest allies? Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think we sold the U2 or SR71 to other nations,and I think the SR71 was classifed as a fighter, but not used for conventional warfare as the Raptor would be.

Currently the US has no plans on selling it to anyone, and many in Congress and the Pentagon are opposed to such sales. But the concept of selling it to a limited number of countries like Japan keeps coming up.
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Spacepope
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:56 am

I doubt it will be offered for export to anyone other than the Japanese, and whether or not they place an order is a big if.

The SR-71 was developed from the YF-12A, which was an interceptor. Not very manouverable, but when you are firing nuke-tipped AAMs, you really just have to launch in the general direction.

As for recent aircraft not exported, we also have the A-10, A-6, RA-5, and so far S-3, though there is an attempt to place the newly retired ones with Brazil.
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Thorny
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:29 am

Quoting Blackbird1331 (Thread starter):
Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think we sold the U2 or SR71 to other nations,and I think the SR71 was classifed as a fighter, but not used for conventional warfare as the Raptor would be.

The YF-12 fighter and SR-71 reconnaissance plane both emerged from the Lockheed A-12 (sometimes A-11) Oxcart reconnaissance aircraft built for the CIA.
 
Lumberton
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:52 am

Yes, I agree Japan will be the most likely first customer--if indeed there are any foreign sales. IIRC, we've had this discussion before. It's not just a question of who wants to buy, or who can afford it, but what countries will be cleared for the purchase. My shortlist:
Japan
UK
Australia
Singapore

Many will include Israel, but I sincerely hope not. Not only will it significantly de-stabilize the status quo in the Mideast, but we are perfectly capable of transferring the technology to China ourselves. Thank you very much.  duck 
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Ozair
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:21 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 4):
Singapore

I am not sure whether Singapore should be on the list, they really are the whores of the intelligence community and sell to anyone for a price. I do not think they would be a wise choice for export.

It is no secret on these boards regarding my feelings on the Raptor; it still remains the best choice as a replacement for our ageing F-18s and F-111s and to maintain the capability edge of the RAAF in the region. I would even be happy to take a slightly reduced stealth version that is designed for export as this would still provide a much greater capability and endurance to the JSF and F-18Fs that are being considered.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 1):
Currently the US has no plans on selling it to anyone, and many in Congress and the Pentagon are opposed to such sales. But the concept of selling it to a limited number of countries like Japan keeps coming up.

As I have said previously the Raptor was offered to the RAAF in the late 90s but was flatly rejected. The position of congress has since changed and it is no longer offered for foreign sale but I still believe this could be changed in a matter of months should a formal request from the United States most committed ally emerge.

Its price and timeframe seem to be converging as a perfect fit for the RAAF, especially as delays and price overruns to the JSF look inevitable.
 
Blackbird1331
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:16 am

I hope Australia,Japan and the UK are offered the F22. I think Israel is a good friend, but, they have a tendency to overreact, unilaterally, and the US is associated with their actions in the end. With that in mind, I do not think they should be sold the F22. Given their global position and the military capabilities of their proven enimies, they do not need such a potent weapon. Besides, if it ever should become necessary for them to have it, they will.
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Zkpilot
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:34 am

Quoting Blackbird1331 (Thread starter):
In a recent wargame they had a 144-0 kill rate.

and this was against F-15s and F-16s! 4 enemies on 1 F-22 at a time too!

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 4):
Japan
UK
Australia
Singapore

UK - yes of course... but unlikely considering they are getting the EF and the F-35.
Japan would be right up there with Australia... difference being that Japan can afford such an aircraft and with China and North Korea being close by this aircraft would be ideal for Japan.
Australia - would love to see it and I'm sure the US would not have a problem with Australia getting them (Australia is a loyal allie, a secure 1st world nation, and is the US's watchdog in South-East Asia). Only problem being that they are way too expensive for Australia... If the US decided to subsidise them..or offer them at cost to Australia that may be a more attractive proposition... and it would benefit the US also... would extend the production run allowing the US to get more aircraft themselves if they wanted as well as reducing some of the overall costs of the program.
Singapore? no way... Sure Singapore is a great (small) nation and friendly, but it has too many influences on it, and from a security point of view having Singapore with the aircraft would provide an opportunity for the likes of China and nations surrounding Singapore to get valuable info about the aircraft.
Israel... I don't think Israel will be offered the F-22.... they just can't be trusted enough by the US with it... (ie selling technology onto the likes of China). The F-35 is more likely for Israel.
Besides Israel doesn't need an aircraft like the F-22...Its such a small country that is surrounded... Stealth? any combat would be closein that the aircraft would be spotted, it doesn't need big range or supercruise... the F-35 is much more suited... more aircraft for your dollar, more suited to the shorter range missions. The only mission for Israel conceivable for the F-22 would be a mission to Iran. All the other middle east nations are close enough to Israel for other aircraft.
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474218
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:01 am

Quoting Blackbird1331 (Thread starter):
Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think we sold the U2 or SR71 to other nations,and I think the SR71 was classifed as a fighter, but not used for conventional warfare as the Raptor would be.

The SR-71 was not a fighter (S=Strategic R=Reconnaissance). The U-2's were sold to the Nationalist Chinese (Taiwan).
 
Ozair
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:44 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 7):
Only problem being that they are way too expensive for Australia... If the US decided to subsidise them..or offer them at cost to Australia that may be a more attractive proposition... and it would benefit the US also... would extend the production run allowing the US to get more aircraft themselves if they wanted as well as reducing some of the overall costs of the program.

The cost is not as prohibitive as you might think. The buy would be for about 60-70 aircraft at the lowest point of the F-22 price curve. Compare this to the JSF buy of 100 which will occur at the highest point in the price curve, we will be the first export customer and hence be paying for that privilege.

It is worth reading the following to give you a good idea of why the F-22 is the better choice for the next 30 years for the RAAF and (we will be protecting you anyway) RNZAF  Wink

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...ink-power-australias-jsf/index.php
 
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:07 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 4):
Yes, I agree Japan will be the most likely first customer--if indeed there are any foreign sales. IIRC, we've had this discussion before. It's not just a question of who wants to buy, or who can afford it, but what countries will be cleared for the purchase. My shortlist:
Japan
UK
Australia
Singapore

Japan, perhaps. UK not likely given their introduction of the new Typhoon. Australia not likely. I believe it's more airplane than they need or can afford. Singapore, not likely either as I don't know that they need it even if they could afford it.
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STT757
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:49 pm

There is strong opposition to selling the F-22 abroad, the only possible sales would be to Japan and or Australia. The reason being they would be able to help buffer against the substantial Chinese military build up.

The US will not sell the F-22 to Israel for two reasons, first it's not needed as the F-15s, F-16s and future F-35 is more than enough capability for Israel to defend itself against anything currently fielded by countries such as Iran or Syria. Second Israel's less than stellar history of protecting US military technology, several technologies have passed from the US to China via Israel.

The UK would love to have it too, but I don't think there's a threat substantial enough to justify it's price tag.

The US, Japan and Australia to buffer Chinese military expansion.
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Venus6971
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:07 pm

Quoting Blackbird1331 (Thread starter):
Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think we sold the U2

I believe the U-2 was sold to Taiwan in which a couple have been shot down by the Chicoms.
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baroque
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:09 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 4):
but we are perfectly capable of transferring the technology to China ourselves. Thank you very much.

 rotfl  Very funny, but bearing in mind the AWACS stories, all too true. Then again, as you perhaps indicate, the Chinese may well already have all they need through other channels. Makes you wonder why the Russians never figured out that allowing "migration" out of Russia could have helped spying no end.
 
Oroka
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:40 am

IMO the US should sell, finance, barter, trade, loan as many F-22s to her allies as possible. Come time, and the sh!t hits the fan, and the now puny USAF faces a huge Chinese air force, the world will need as many F-22s in the air as possible.
 
Blackbird1331
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Thu Jan 25, 2007 8:53 am

Orka: Sorry Canada was left off of the list. Canada has always been on my favorites list. If we sell any to foreign coutries, Canada should be first. It should be noted that Canada has has always been considered by me as a friend, not a foreign country.
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Zkpilot
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:50 pm

Quoting Blackbird1331 (Reply 15):
Orka: Sorry Canada was left off of the list. Canada has always been on my favorites list. If we sell any to foreign coutries, Canada should be first. It should be noted that Canada has has always been considered by me as a friend, not a foreign country.

Just a few extra states North of you that are polite and talk funny eh?  Wink

Yeah Canada is the other option....
There really are only 3 countries that America would sell the F-22 to... Canada, Australia, Japan. I doubt that Canada would get them however... Canada's operations are of the more defensive rather than offensive nature... Whilst the F-22 can be defensive (and is very good at it), it is an offensive aircraft designed to own the skies. Not just air superiority, but air supremacy.
The F/A-18E/F is more suited to Canada, or the F-35 unless Canada decides it wants to get more involved in foreign conflicts such as Afghanistan, NATO/UN ops.
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T773ER
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 6:24 am

I read somewhere that Japan was a likely candiate for the F-22, but it would be a washed down version of the Raptor we have in the USAF.
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TheSonntag
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:12 pm

I really wonder whether there will be training exercises one day with EF2000 vs F-22... No doubt the F-22 will do better, but it would be interesting to see how the performance really is of both planes...
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Sat Jan 27, 2007 12:11 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 18):
I really wonder whether there will be training exercises one day with EF2000 vs F-22... No doubt the F-22 will do better, but it would be interesting to see how the performance really is of both planes...

"In March 2005, Chief of Staff General Jumper, then the only person to have flown both the Typhoon and the Raptor, gave a verbal comparison on the two aircraft. He said that "the Eurofighter is both agile and sophisticated, but is still difficult to compare to the F-22 Raptor." "They are different kinds of airplanes to start with," the general said. "It's like asking us to compare a NASCAR car with a Formula 1 car. They are both exciting in different ways, but they are designed for different levels of performance." http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...news/2005/03/mil-050322-afpn02.htm
The F-22 is faster, more manoeuverable, has longer range and endurance, stealth, supercruise, larger payload. Still the Eurofighter is pretty cool  Smile
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Oroka
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:34 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 16):
Orka: Sorry Canada was left off of the list.

I wasn't implying you left us off... or purpose or otherwise, just that there should be as many F-22s in the air, no matter who owns them (obviously not China or Iran).

I dont see Canada buying any F-22s... not our cup of tea. We would never be in the opening wave of a air war. I am confident that we will order F-35s, maybe around 2015-2020... gotta wring every drop of use out of those CF-18s  Yeah sure

In the case of a country that has had a history of letting some secrets slip, like Israel, F-22s could be lease only, and part of the contract, there would be a USAF maintenance unit to maintain the aircraft. The F-22s are Israeli, Israeli pilots, at Israeli bases, fueled and armed by Israeli personal, but any sensitive work is done by Americans.
 
CF188A
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:37 am

I noticed the threat was getting a little wild.... therefore I am just going to give my two cents. The F-22 for one is the bloodiest damn expensive fighter aircraft ever designed and why would anyone want to purchase the F-22 when the F-35 is just around the corner? I mean it is still stealth, LESS than half the price, has VTOL capability... and congress has accepted the possibilities of sales to foreign nations including Canada i mean for any country to purchase the F-22 .... I dont believe it is a wise decision. The F-22 is also now the worlds most advanced when it comes to maneuvering etc etc. I am still a firm believer its whose behind the controls ... however if its a F-22 vs a MIG-21 then obviously ,but i would love to see the US put the F-22 and the F-35 head to head.... I bet the results would be humorous as the F-35 has X/Y axis thrust vectoring not just Y axis , both are stealth, both can supercruise, I mean lol, sure the F-22 can carry more ordanance but hey, I still believe it is the most efficient decision to purchase F-35s. My two cents
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Zkpilot
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:24 am

Quoting CF188A (Reply 21):
I noticed the threat was getting a little wild.... therefore I am just going to give my two cents. The F-22 for one is the bloodiest damn expensive fighter aircraft ever designed and why would anyone want to purchase the F-22 when the F-35 is just around the corner? I mean it is still stealth, LESS than half the price, has VTOL capability... and congress has accepted the possibilities of sales to foreign nations including Canada i mean for any country to purchase the F-22 .... I dont believe it is a wise decision. The F-22 is also now the worlds most advanced when it comes to maneuvering etc etc. I am still a firm believer its whose behind the controls ... however if its a F-22 vs a MIG-21 then obviously ,but i would love to see the US put the F-22 and the F-35 head to head.... I bet the results would be humorous as the F-35 has X/Y axis thrust vectoring not just Y axis , both are stealth, both can supercruise, I mean lol, sure the F-22 can carry more ordanance but hey, I still believe it is the most efficient decision to purchase F-35s. My two cents

The F-35 is not as cheap as you think... its costs are spiralling all the time and it is a less capable aircraft than the F-22... F-22 costs can only come down with time.. ie if another country (Canada, Japan, Australia) was to buy the F-22 they would get a pretty good deal for it, whereas they have to pay full list price for the F-35.
So far as F-22 vs F-35 maneuvering, the F-22 is a larger aircraft, but it has more thrust available to it and has larger control surfaces. In either case the whole point of the F-22 is that it should never need to get into a dogfight in the first place due to its stealth (which is more than what the F-35 will have). The F-22 also works with conventional fighter aircraft well in that it can operate as a mini-AWACS platform... because it is stealth and has advanced computers etc it can use passive radar to pick up threats and then relay the information via secure links to other aircraft who can attack without being seen by the enemy... the F-22 is a force-multiplier...
F-35 supercruise is not going to be anywhere near the F-22 supercruise... the difference in thrust between the two aircraft is so massive... The F-22 can supercruise not just at over mach 1, but well above it... its classified, but it is thought that it can supercruise somewhere between mach 1.4 and mach 1.8. I doubt the F-35 will do much more than mach 1.2 without burner.
And of course the final argument is that the F-22 is already in service and is a known quantity... the F-35 is unknown and won't be in service for some time yet.  Wink
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CF188A
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:33 am

awesome info.. thank you
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Blackbird1331
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:09 am

Zkpilot:Good post. As I see it, then, the F22 would make a good squadron- mom. Dump most of the ordnance and add fuel tanks so they could stay on station as the F35s come and go. And, with some weaponry, they could act as a last resort defensive weapon.
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KevinSmith
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:01 pm

Anybody see Future Weapons recently? One of the pilots was talking about how they need to have 5 F-15s vs 1 F-22 to make it a challenge for the Raptor pilot. Considering the air-to-air record of the F-15 is something like 144-0 that's saying something. I don't think that the US will let a plane with that kind of power be sold to anyone but the US military.
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Oroka
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:47 am

I would call the F-35 the F-22's little brother. It has stealth (it is almost the same as a F-117), super cruise, high tech integrated sensors, just not to the level and degree of refinement of the F-22. The F-22 takes out all the high risk targets in the opening shots of a war, then the F-35 plays bomb truck which can hold its own in a tough situation.
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:42 am

Quoting KevinSmith (Reply 25):
Anybody see Future Weapons recently? One of the pilots was talking about how they need to have 5 F-15s vs 1 F-22 to make it a challenge for the Raptor pilot. Considering the air-to-air record of the F-15 is something like 144-0 that's saying something. I don't think that the US will let a plane with that kind of power be sold to anyone but the US military.

Well Australia is about as friendly a country to the USA as you can get. Australia poses no threat to the USA, and were Australia to be invaded in future then THAT would pose a threat to the USA so it is in the USA best interesting to have a strong Allie and Friend in Australia... ie offer them the F-22 if they want it.
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KevinSmith
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:15 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 27):
Australia poses no threat to the USA

Your reverse psychology won't work on the US my friend. Ha Ha. Only joking of course.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 27):
have a strong Allie and Friend in Australia... ie offer them the F-22 if they want it.

Very good point. But unfortunately for the Aussies, I don't think they will get the F-22 until after its replacement is in the hands of the US military. I could be wrong though, time will tell.
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NoUFO
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:35 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 19):
The F-22 is faster

How much? But yes, you're probably right.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 19):
more manoeuverable

Questionable, at least if you wait for the T3 Typhoons which will come with thrust vectoring noozles.
Typhoon can fly maneuvers such as Cobra, I have heard, pilots are however forced not to fly them. Plus, Typoon is apparently the only fighter that is flown with 2 AIM-9/Iris-T and 4 AMRAAMs, during displays. All those competing Rafales, F-16s and what not only carry 2 AIM-9.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 19):
has longer range and endurance

Longer range: yes. As for the endurance: If that's the life-time of the airframe - how do you know?

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 19):
stealth

True. However, Typhoon is apparently really difficult to detect.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 19):
supercruise

Both have supercruise. I have heard it's Mach 1.2 vs. Mach 1.6. The idea of supercruise is that the plane can continue to fly at supersonic speed without the use of afterburners. Wheter it's Mach 1.2 or 1.4 or 1.6 is not that important.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 19):
larger payload

Only if you add the external hardpoints to the internal weapon bays.


The F-22a is certainly the more capable a/a fighter, but it's a bit pointless to compare it to the Eurofighter, since they will likely never battle against each other.
Both should be compared the Su-27, Su-30 or Mig-29, and in this case results will probably be very similar, with Typhoon being a lot cheaper and probably being the better multi-role aircraft.

Quoting CF188A (Reply 21):
F-35 is (...) LESS than half the price

Guess, we will have to wait until the plane is in service.
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Zkpilot
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Sun Feb 04, 2007 8:09 pm

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 29):
Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 19):
The F-22 is faster

How much? But yes, you're probably right.

"Former Lockheed Raptor chief test pilot Paul Metz stated that the Raptor has a fixed inlet. Metz has also stated that the F-22 has a top speed greater than 1600 mph (Mach 2.42)"
Eurofighter maximum speed is Mach 2.0

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 29):
Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 19):
more manoeuverable

Questionable, at least if you wait for the T3 Typhoons which will come with thrust vectoring noozles.
Typhoon can fly maneuvers such as Cobra, I have heard, pilots are however forced not to fly them. Plus, Typoon is apparently the only fighter that is flown with 2 AIM-9/Iris-T and 4 AMRAAMs, during displays. All those competing Rafales, F-16s and what not only carry 2 AIM-9.

The F-22 can do those manoeuvers with a normal payload also. It has the highest thrust-weight ratio of any fighter jet - higher than 1.26:1 with standard load Vs 1.18:1 for the Eurofighter (with 40,500lbs thrust).The F22 has 70,000lbs of thrust afterall!

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 29):
Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 19):
has longer range and endurance

Longer range: yes. As for the endurance: If that's the life-time of the airframe - how do you know?

Endurance... as in the vital fact of Air Supremacy...the ability to remain on or near station for a length of time if necessary... or time to hold whilst waiting for a refuel enroute to somewhere longhaul.
As for airframe life-time no-one knows how they compare... The F-22 does appear to have been designed very strongly and at its price you would think it would be designed to last! Then again for the price you could buy 2 Typhoons!

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 29):
Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 19):
stealth

True. However, Typhoon is apparently really difficult to detect.

The F-22 not only has high levels of stealth, but also low-observability...
the Typhoon has had low-observability included in the design... but at the range the F-22 is going to be attacking from... no enemy is going to see it anyway be it Russian, Chinese or whatever.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 29):
Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 19):
supercruise

Both have supercruise. I have heard it's Mach 1.2 vs. Mach 1.6. The idea of supercruise is that the plane can continue to fly at supersonic speed without the use of afterburners. Wheter it's Mach 1.2 or 1.4 or 1.6 is not that important.

I've heard Mach 1.2-1.3 for the Typhoon... with an air-air only armament...with a typical mix it would barely be able to make supercruise and would probably require afterburner to get supersonic to start with.
The F-22 can supercruise faster than Mach 1.7 with a typical armament

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 29):
Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 19):
larger payload

Only if you add the external hardpoints to the internal weapon bays.


The F-22a is certainly the more capable a/a fighter, but it's a bit pointless to compare it to the Eurofighter, since they will likely never battle against each other.
Both should be compared the Su-27, Su-30 or Mig-29, and in this case results will probably be very similar, with Typhoon being a lot cheaper and probably being the better multi-role aircraft.

Yes the F-22 does carry a lesser internal payload than the Typhoon can carry in total, the USAF is aparently looking at developing a external pack capable of holding external weapons stealthily if so many weapons were required. The fact is that the Typhoon would not normally carry that many stores in any case as it would reduce its range massively (unless those stores were droptanks), and it would give it a huge radar cross-section.
But yes the Typhoon is considered to be the best Fighter in the world currently after the Raptor  Smile
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Ozair
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:56 am

Quoting KevinSmith (Reply 28):
Very good point. But unfortunately for the Aussies, I don't think they will get the F-22 until after its replacement is in the hands of the US military. I could be wrong though, time will tell.

The next year of JSF development is key to any RAAF F-22 procurement. If the aircraft begins to suffer program delays of a couple of years then the F-22 will have a great chance of stealing the entire order.

A delay in the JSF might also allow a greater F-22 buy by the USAF thus extending production and opening the door for export orders.

The F-22 has been offered to us previously and we need only ask for it to be offered again.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 29):
True. However, Typhoon is apparently really difficult to detect.

There is difficult to detect and invisible. As ZKpilot states the F-22 can engage from a distance that renders it undetectable to current system including the Typhoon.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 30):
I've heard Mach 1.2-1.3 for the Typhoon... with an air-air only armament...with a typical mix it would barely be able to make supercruise and would probably require afterburner to get supersonic to start with.
The F-22 can supercruise faster than Mach 1.7 with a typical armament

The most under-rated element of the F-22. The ability to cruise to your station at close to twice normal aircraft speeds increases not only your time on station but the time it takes to travel back to tanker assets etc. Hence why two F-22 will accomplish the missions of at least 4 and more like 6 F-35 and I hazard 4 Typhoons as well.
 
Blackbird1331
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:30 am

Lockheed Martin has delivered 82F-22's and has an order for 49 more. All going to the USAF.
As a note: The Joint Strike Fighter System Design and Develope stage partners are: The U.K. the only level one, Italy and the Netherlands at level two, Demark, Norway,Canada,Turkey and Australia at level three, with Sigapore and Israel at level four.
The JSF will will not be ready as promised. Maybe the F22 will be offered to partners who cancel F35 orders.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:03 am

Quoting Blackbird1331 (Reply 32):
The U.K. the only level one, Italy and the Netherlands at level two, Demark, Norway,Canada,Turkey and Australia at level three, with Sigapore and Israel at level four.

Australia is only there at that level because they haven't gotten themselves as involved as the other countries. Australia and the UK are the USAs closest allies and friends, Canada is there also but not so much in a military context.
56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
 
Venus6971
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:16 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 33):
Canada is there also but not so much in a military context.

Being from the AWACS community I would say your comment about Canada is wrong, they are very much tide to the hip with our E-3 mission and Norad/Space command plus the air defense of North America. Ground forces with us is in Iraq they were not there but are in force with us in Afganistan. 2nd largest country in the world with one of the smallest populations for its size. Their governmant has finally relized that the military has a purpose than UN peace keeping in Cyprus and the balkans.
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
Legs
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:24 pm

If Australia did pull out of the JSF program in favour of Raptors, however unlikely that may be, will the Australian government incur any penalties? Or will we just forfeit monies already spent?
 
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autothrust
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:34 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 29):
Questionable, at least if you wait for the T3 Typhoons which will come with thrust vectoring noozles.
Typhoon can fly maneuvers such as Cobra, I have heard, pilots are however forced not to fly them. Plus, Typoon is apparently the only fighter that is flown with 2 AIM-9/Iris-T and 4 AMRAAMs, during displays.

 checkmark  Indeed, btw the Typhoons doesnt really need the thrust vectoring noozles wich are already developed.The differences are marginal.
Also we should mention the Eurofighter needs only 300meters of runway to takeoff and is in less then 170sec to reach 14000meters.(world record)
Also it can do higher g(up to 9g) manouvers at supersonic speed then the F-22.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 30):
've heard Mach 1.2-1.3 for the Typhoon... with an air-air only armament

The T3 Thypoons will supercruise at 1.5 and with full armament at 1.3.

About stealth : Some sources say the RCS of the Thypoon is 0.35~0.4 wich is about 4 times lower then the superhornet.
Also T3 Thypoons will get new AESA Radar wich will be able to detect steahlt planes at a limited range.

Sure the F-22 is in most aspects superior, however the Eurofighter is still a impressive interceptor wich is better then the F-15,F-16,F-18,Su-35.(source wikipedia,EF.com)
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
Ozair
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:18 am

Quoting Legs (Reply 35):
If Australia did pull out of the JSF program in favour of Raptors, however unlikely that may be, will the Australian government incur any penalties? Or will we just forfeit monies already spent?

We have not actually spent any money on purchasing the JSF (well not any direct money, I am sure there are plenty of studies etc which has consumed dollars). What we have spent is on the research and production phases. This allows Australian companies to compete for contracts and develop systems for the aircraft. As several Australian companies have already been selected to provide parts for the aircraft I don't believe this has any direct correlation to purchase.
 
Legs
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:48 pm

Quoting Ozair (Reply 37):
esearch and production phases.

Now you mention it, i do recall a bunch of companies successful in bidding for contracts, Hawker de Havilland being the first that springs to mind. Which brings me to my next question, could the RAAF pull out of the program, or would they be penalised?
 
deskflier
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:06 am

Two points. First, don´t get too blinded by a wargame result. The operative word here is game, not war. In Korea 1950-53 the F-86 slugged it out with the roughly equal MiG-15. The US training produced a 15:1 kill ratio. In Vietnam the Commies were still flying the MiG-17, which could be described as a souped up MiG-15, while the USAF and USNavy had moved on to the F-4 Phantom II. You would have expected even better kill ratios, but until the F-4 was fitted with a gun and new tactics training was implemented the kill ratio F-4 vs MiG-17 were about equal (1:1). My assumption is that not only were the F-22´s opponents in said wargames other older US types, but they were using standard US tactics as well. Unorthodox tactics used by Su-35s, MiG-29s, or even Xian Airguards (PRC MiG-21), could change the scoreboard more than anyone in the free world would like. And, before Vietnam, who would have thought the Cessna A-37 "Tweet" to be the best attack aircraft of that conflict?
My second point regards stealth. What use is a nonexistent RCS once you light up your own radar? The F-22 is as described in some previous posts best used in BVR combat. So it absolutely has to use radar, both to acquire targets and to guide its weapons. And while it is doing things that require the use of radar, it´s no more stealthy than any other plane using radar. Probably less so, since I assume that the radar in the F-22 is quite powerful, given the Raptors emphasis on BVR combat.
How can anyone not fly, when we live at a time when we can fly?
 
KevinSmith
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:16 am

Quoting Deskflier (Reply 39):
What use is a nonexistent RCS once you light up your own radar? The F-22 is as described in some previous posts best used in BVR combat. So it absolutely has to use radar, both to acquire targets and to guide its weapons. And while it is doing things that require the use of radar, it�s no more stealthy than any other plane using radar. Probably less so, since I assume that the radar in the F-22 is quite powerful, given the Raptors emphasis on BVR combat.

The F-22 uses a low observable radar, the AN/APG-77.

I know your point was with regard to BVR combat, but say the radar doesn't work as advertised. That's what AWACS are for. YES their radar would be detected by the enemy. However you could vector in the F-22s, with out them having to fire up their radar henceforth preserving their stealth. Once the F-22s have sneaked up on said boogies its AIM-9s (guns) away.
Learning to fly, but I ain't got wings.
 
Ozair
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:22 am

Quoting KevinSmith (Reply 40):
I know your point was with regard to BVR combat, but say the radar doesn't work as advertised. That's what AWACS are for. YES their radar would be detected by the enemy. However you could vector in the F-22s, with out them having to fire up their radar henceforth preserving their stealth. Once the F-22s have sneaked up on said boogies its AIM-9s (guns) away.

Much of the cost (and length) of development for the F-22 has been in sensor fusion. It can seamlessly receive data from many different platforms, processes and displays on the aircraft's systems.

Quoting Legs (Reply 38):
Now you mention it, i do recall a bunch of companies successful in bidding for contracts, Hawker de Havilland being the first that springs to mind. Which brings me to my next question, could the RAAF pull out of the program, or would they be penalised?

Up to now the RAAF has not ordered anything. As such we are not financially burdened where we would lose deposits etc if we were to pull out. The decision on the JSF is being postponed until after the next Federal election by both major political parties.

That being said, it would be unlike the RAAF (or really the DMO) to not lose money on a defence contract. The recent history of procurement for this government agency is nothing short of appalling.

On topic Australian media are again reporting on the offer of F/A-18E/F aircraft as bridging units until the JSF arrive. I can't find the specific article but it appears Defence Minister Nelson is intent on carrying through with this proposal.

This does not bode well for any RAAF F-22 purchase.  Sad
 
Legs
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:46 pm

Quoting Ozair (Reply 41):
on the offer of F/A-18E/F aircraft

This has been floating around at work as well, but we've been told that theres been no tender let, nor has there been an official submission from Boeing US.

Having said that, its a pretty reasonable idea, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, and probably foremost, to fill the gap between F-111 retirement and the F-35s IOC, which wont get any smaller, and more likely to get larger.

Secondly, (and this is more a personal opinion), the F/A-18E/F will probably be a great stepping stone towards the JSF, with a sensors and equipment levels above whats currently operated, and similar performance, allowing the RAAF to develop SOP's for the F-35s strike capability in the future.
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:14 am

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 34):
Canada is there also but not so much in a military context.

Being from the AWACS community I would say your comment about Canada is wrong, they are very much tide to the hip with our E-3 mission and Norad/Space command plus the air defense of North America. Ground forces with us is in Iraq they were not there but are in force with us in Afganistan. 2nd largest country in the world with one of the smallest populations for its size. Their governmant has finally relized that the military has a purpose than UN peace keeping in Cyprus and the balkans.

I should clarify by military I meant in the combat sense rather than the in-your-own-backyard Norad type situation. Many countries are in Afghanistan... New Zealand (my country) included! Whilst it is a battlezone etc it is also very much a peacekeeping type mission in many aspects... Canada does not get involved in the dirtywork with the USA so much as say Australia or the UK is what I mean. The RCAF is not exactly well known for deploying its aircraft overseas!

Quoting Legs (Reply 35):
If Australia did pull out of the JSF program in favour of Raptors, however unlikely that may be, will the Australian government incur any penalties? Or will we just forfeit monies already spent?

They have only spent some initial funds to be included in the project...they would most likely lose these but then again they would most likely get a good deal for the F-22.

Speaking of which I just saw an article today (not sure how old it is) that the US is cutting the number of F35s its ordering by 2/3 from the original number and by 1/2 of the previous number. Reducing to purchasing something like 40ish per year.
This will invariably increase the costs of the programme massively.
56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
 
Venus6971
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:25 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 43):
Canada does not get involved in the dirtywork with the USA so much as say Australia or the UK is what I mean.

The Canadians have gotten their hands very dirty in Afghanistan under NATO command and have taken losses plus given the taliban a bloody nose or two. During air operations with E-3's in support many Canucks were flying with U.S crews in OEF and OIF.
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
Blackbird1331
Topic Author
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:32 am

These weapons are about protecting the people of the free world. I doubt the level is based on a level of friendship, but based on an expected level of partisipation. The more a country is expected to provide parts and technology, the more access it would need to have to the big picture for the purpose of intergration. If all you were supplying is the tires, what do you need to know about the cockpit configueration? It's all about the mission. Why buy a Caddilac if all you want to do is deliver pizza?
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
Ozair
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:35 am

Quoting Legs (Reply 42):
Secondly, (and this is more a personal opinion), the F/A-18E/F will probably be a great stepping stone towards the JSF, with a sensors and equipment levels above whats currently operated, and similar performance, allowing the RAAF to develop SOP's for the F-35s strike capability in the future.

I'm not convinced that the Super Hornet is a wise decision as a bridging aircraft. It does not have the range, payload or capability of the aircraft it is replacing. The only attraction is a swift conversion of aircrew from current hornet squadrons and even then your losing the strike experience gained by the F-111 crews until they can be fully trained for F-18 flight ops.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 43):

Speaking of which I just saw an article today (not sure how old it is) that the US is cutting the number of F35s its ordering by 2/3 from the original number and by 1/2 of the previous number. Reducing to purchasing something like 40ish per year.
This will invariably increase the costs of the programme massively.

I haven't seen this story yet but it does not point to a bright future. If costs go up too much further an outright cancel looms. It would end up being far more cost worthy to increase the Raptor buy and replace the older F-16s, 18s etc with new build updated models. The Raptor handles the first 5 days of conflict clearing the skies and the subsequent F-16NGs etc come in with the bombs to mop up.

It does leave a big hole with regards to VSTOL platforms though and I can't see a way around this as both the Marines and UK require this capability.

Quoting Blackbird1331 (Reply 45):
These weapons are about protecting the people of the free world. I doubt the level is based on a level of friendship, but based on an expected level of partisipation. The more a country is expected to provide parts and technology, the more access it would need to have to the big picture for the purpose of intergration. If all you were supplying is the tires, what do you need to know about the cockpit configueration? It's all about the mission.

I'm not sure what you mean by this? Are you talking about allied nations having access to source code for their own integration efforts (on either the JSF or F-22) or buying a more capable aircraft than a nation requires?

Looking at the possible export nations, Australia has maintained a clear lead in strike capability with the F-111 for the last twenty years in the Asia/Pac region; I cannot see them wanting to remove this capability. Japan has a clear threat in an emerging China that continues to build and expand their military. The UK doesn't really need it, the Typhoon will be sufficient for their needs. For South Korea it would be a bit too much aircraft for their intended purpose, the only advantage would be commonality with US forces should any conflict occur and Israel for the reasons already mentioned above.

Quoting Blackbird1331 (Reply 45):
Why buy a Caddilac if all you want to do is deliver pizza?

Because on Friday night when you pick up the lady and show off to the boys a bit of size, room and style actually make a difference. I'd rather drag with a Caddy than a Corsa!
 
Blackbird1331
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:46 am

Ozair: I was refering to reply number 32. The JSF design and development partners were assigned levels. Subsequent posts seemed to infer the assigned levels were based on a level of friendship.
Rule number one: Do not give to others technology that can render you defensless. It is simply a matter of the U.S. making it easier for our friends not to be pressured to give up secrets they do not have.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
Ozair
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:07 pm

Quoting Blackbird1331 (Reply 47):
Ozair: I was refering to reply number 32. The JSF design and development partners were assigned levels. Subsequent posts seemed to infer the assigned levels were based on a level of friendship.

Okay I understand.

Interesting though as the RAAF was/are talking about full source code access to allow them to integrate their own weapons and sensors as a LVL 3 partner while the UK at LVL 1 were also struggling to gain access to the source code. My understanding was LVL access was more about industrial participation/risk-sharing than systems access?
 
Legs
Posts: 246
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RE: F22 Foreign Sales?

Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:26 pm

Quoting Ozair (Reply 46):
Because on Friday night when you pick up the lady and show off to the boys a bit of size, room and style actually make a difference. I'd rather drag with a Caddy than a Corsa!

Amen to that! He who has the biggest and best toys wins, especially in our neck of the woods, with all the neighbours to the north buying hotrods as well

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