anthonyspider
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Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:46 pm

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,21336251-662,00.html

News today of the RAAF decision to buy 24 Super Hornets as a stop-gap measure before JSF is ready.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:42 am

Damn, Boeing must love the RAAF as a customer. Other than Keesje's Delightthe A330 MRTT, the RAAF has spent a ton with Boeing.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
columba
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:16 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 1):
Damn, Boeing must love the RAAF as a customer. Other than Keesje's Delightthe A330 MRTT, the RAAF has spent a ton with Boeing.

I don´t think that EADS can not complain with Australia as a customer either. The Australian military has ordered the NH 90 and the Tiger from Eurocopter as well as the A330 MRTT. Granted I would have love to see Australia buying the A400M but I guess they needed the aircraft earlier as Airbus could deliever and the C 17 is a fabulous aircraft which will serve Australia well.
The Super Hornet is also the perfect aircraft for Australia needs the only sad thing regarding this decision is that it will mean the end of the F-111s in service.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:40 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 2):
The Super Hornet is also the perfect aircraft for Australia needs the only sad thing regarding this decision is that it will mean the end of the F-111s in service.

The SuperBug, or the F-35, is not a very good F-111 replacement, the F-15E is a much closer match to the Aardvarks (Pig's) capabilities.

Yes, I am not a big fan of the F/A-18E/F. Even though the RAAF already has F/A-18A/Bs those are totally different airplanes from the SuperBug.
 
KevinSmith
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Wed Mar 07, 2007 5:39 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 3):

Yes, I am not a big fan of the F/A-18E/F

Agreed. No offense to the old F-4 drivers but I'm getting the sense the the Super Hornets have of case of the Phantoms. That is they are becomming a jack of all trades and masters at none.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 3):
F-15E is a much closer match to the Aardvarks (Pig's) capabilities.

Agreed again. I think though that the Vark has the edge over the Mud Hen in the air-to-ground role, being that it was designed as a low level bomber from the outset. The Varks were also so stinking fast at low level.
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Stealthz
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:08 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 3):
Yes, I am not a big fan of the F/A-18E/F. Even though the RAAF already has F/A-18A/Bs those are totally different airplanes from the SuperBug.

Agreed,
I don't think the F-15E ever stood a real chance, IMHO we got the SuperBug for some of the same reasons the USN did.
The perception is that it is an upgrade to the F/A-18A/B we already operate, I think trying to introduce a completely different type(which in reality the 18F is) would have not have been so easy.

Also I believe the F-15E is not currently in production.(although with the SG & K models still being built this is unlikely a showstopper)

One of the smart things about this decision is, like the C-17 purchase, we are not trying to reinvent the wheel and are buying pretty much the same aircraft as the USN.

Cheers

PS, coupla dozen MudHens with kangaroos on the side would look real good tho
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
dl021
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:02 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 2):
the only sad thing regarding this decision is that it will mean the end of the F-111s in service.

It's like putting the Tomcat out to pasture.....one hell of an airplane that we airplane lovers wish would keep flying. But, it's that old story of the jacked up Mustang GT that is finally unable to compete in anything other than a straightline dragstrip race, and takes too much maintenance even then. The MudHen will serve well, and cost less to keep flying (unless Australia decides to have their own software package that requires new integration).

Quoting KevinSmith (Reply 4):
The Varks were also so stinking fast at low level.

Damn skippy. Awesome sight when two fly 200 feet over you at full throttle......noise is unforgettable....
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:21 am

Quoting KevinSmith (Reply 4):
I think though that the Vark has the edge over the Mud Hen in the air-to-ground role, being that it was designed as a low level bomber from the outset. The Varks were also so stinking fast at low level.

Yes, the 'vark is better than the MudHen at long range interdiction low level mission. The FB-111s were the best of all F-111s at that. Fortunately the RAAF picked up about 15 FB-111As after they were redesignated F-111Gs.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 5):
One of the smart things about this decision is, like the C-17 purchase, we are not trying to reinvent the wheel and are buying pretty much the same aircraft as the USN.

I have wondered about that. Why copy the USN? It seems to me the USAF fighters are much closer to the RAAF needs.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 5):
don't think the F-15E ever stood a real chance, IMHO we got the SuperBug for some of the same reasons the USN did.
The perception is that it is an upgrade to the F/A-18A/B we already operate, I think trying to introduce a completely different type(which in reality the 18F is) would have not have been so easy.

Also I believe the F-15E is not currently in production.(although with the SG & K models still being built this is unlikely a showstopper)

But the F/A-18E/F really is a totally different aircraft than the F/A-18A/B. If the RAAF wanted F-15Es tomorrow, Boeing would build them. It may be called the F-15R (for RAAF).
 
AirRyan
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:07 am

I think the F/A-18F block II is a great aircraft - but I'd rather have my GE powered F-14D or a similarly powered F-15K IF I had a choice. I think it would be neat if the RAAF will buy the exact same F/A-18F as the USN is as I think they will, because they want the option of being able to sell them down the road back to the USN and go with 4 squdrons of JSF's. Personally, I don't like putting all my eggs in one basket and thereby I think the USN and every other jSF operator needs to have at least one additional aircraft type.

Now if the RAAF never had any inclination of using their Super Hornets on either US or the future British carriers, than I cannot help but wonder if why if your going to spend $6B than why wouldn't you spend $500m more and get the F-15K?

One advantage I can see in the F/A-18F is it's ability to sling what, 11 AMRAAM's? Given that the new AMRAAM's will soon be gong out to 100 miles that's a pretty potent platform especially when combined with a powerful AESA radar as it is. And if it needs close in action, AIM-9X on JHMCS works pretty damned skippy, too.

I like the F/A-18F block II and it's got to be an even easier and cost beneficial aircraft to maintain than even a new F-15K, but I sure hope the RAAF A-330 tankers can get the Super Bugs where they need to go.
 
Stealthz
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:08 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 7):
Why copy the USN? It seems to me the USAF fighters are much closer to the RAAF needs.

I think I agree there, asked the same questions back when we first bought the Hornets, IIRC the other US contender was the F-16 and our decision makers had their heart set on 2 engines.
This time around they did a lot of the sales pitch (the Aus DOD not Boeing) based on the easy integration of an "upgraded" Hornet so nothing else was realistically on the table.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 7):
But the F/A-18E/F really is a totally different aircraft than the F/A-18A/B

You know that, I know that, most here know that, I am sure Dr Nelson knows that, but the perception is it is later model of the A/B. That perception, perhaps has not been actively promoted but certainly no real attempt has been made to discourage it.
Realistically it was the Super Bug or nothing, and nothing was going to be a bad choice. Whilst the Pig may have been able(forced) to soldier on for a few more years, a fleet grounding issue would have left us badly exposed.
Getting what is also virtually identical to the USN version also leaves open the option of trading them back in favour of an extra F-35 squadron.. and also a measure of insurance in case the Lightning hits any snags..

Cheers
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KevinSmith
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:10 am

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 5):

Also I believe the F-15E is not currently in production.

As of two years ago this time I know they were still in production. Granted a lot can change in two years.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 5):

PS, coupla dozen MudHens with kangaroos on the side would look real good tho

Whatever they are wearing, if you ever get a chance to go see one in action and you haven't before GO!!! You won't be disappointed. I've seen them viking climb to the point where they were making contrails. Unreal.
Learning to fly, but I ain't got wings.
 
Legs
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:36 pm

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 5):
The perception is that it is an upgrade to the F/A-18A/B we already operate, I think trying to introduce a completely different type(which in reality the 18F is) would have not have been so easy.

What makes that argument even less credible, is the fact the 18F's will be operated from a completely separate airbase (Amberley), and the weapon system managed as a strike platform by 82WG, as opposed to a fighter.
 
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SAS A340
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:42 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 8):
but I sure hope the RAAF A-330 tankers can get the Super Bugs where they need to go.

Is there a thing ore two that,s talk against it?
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:04 am

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 12):
Quoting AirRyan (Reply 8):
but I sure hope the RAAF A-330 tankers can get the Super Bugs where they need to go.

Is there a thing ore two that,s talk against it?

No, the RAAF KC-30Bs should be easily able to refuel the SuperBug.
 
Devilfish
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:19 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 7):
If the RAAF wanted F-15Es tomorrow, Boeing would build them. It may be called the F-15R (for RAAF).



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 8):
but I'd rather have my GE powered F-14D or a similarly powered F-15K IF I had a choice.

Or they could be the launch customer for the F-15E+ Super Eagle if the choice weren't "Superbug or nothing." I'm sure Boeing wouldn't mind the upgrade, and might even be cajoled into quoting a very good price. The RAAF could also benefit through the availability of spares common with the F-15K and F-15SG.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...icleID=209633&PrinterFriendly=true

However, LockMart wouldn't be too happy with that idea.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 5):
PS, coupla dozen MudHens with kangaroos on the side would look real good tho

Won't a cassowary, emu, kiwi or an ostrich be more apt?

[Edited 2007-03-08 03:49:00]
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Stealthz
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:51 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 14):
Superbug or nothing."

I think politically in Australia it was, not so much about what is available.

Certainly not a Kiwi that is a New Zealand Airforce symbol .. and an increasingly appropriate one!
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
Devilfish
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:58 pm

Flightglobal's take on the matter.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...s-given-go-ahead-no-effect-on.html

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 15):
I think politically in Australia it was, not so much about what is available.

IMHO, that point is adequately illustrated in this DID coverage of the issues.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...super-hornets-under-fire/index.php

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 15):
Certainly not a Kiwi that is a New Zealand Airforce symbol

My bad!  footinmouth 
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
AirRyan
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:32 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 16):
IMHO, that point is adequately illustrated in this DID coverage of the issues.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...x.php

I cannot believe that the Aussies use the argument that there are financial savings by utilizing a Super Hornet from a legacy hornet operators perspective - the Super Hornet is an almost completely new build aircraft by Boeing that just happened to resemble a legacy Hornet so they could justify bypassing Congressional approval and not have to submit to a fighter jet competition!

The Super Hornet has some pros and cons, but go ask the South Koreans why they selected the F-15K with GE engines over the Super Hornet, hell go ask our USAF which one they would buy - this is a Boeing sweetheart deal but Boeing is in that posistion to market whatever suits them best at the time and that's just the way it is.

And that part about economics of the JSF versus a Super Hornet - there is just no way that given simple value of the dollar today versus what it will be like in 5 to 10 years via inflation alone that the Super Hornets are and will always be less expensive than the JSF, an aircraft who is NOT in production right and subject to all sorts of further price increases (i.e. it's not going down in price!)
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:25 pm

The words of Austrailian Defense Minister Nelson;

About the F-15E

"The reality is the F-15 is about 30 to $40 million more expensive than the Super Hornet. It is approaching the end of its life. It also has a low observable profile which is not attractive to our country's needs. It also has limited transferability in terms of weapons. We are a Hornet country."

About the F-22A

"...We still expect the US military however to acquire about two and a half thousand of the aircraft in contrast to the 183, or thereabouts, F-22s that they will have. We are not prepared as a country of 20 million people requiring a hundred aircraft to sign on for 20 per cent of the global on costs of an F-22, and knowing that as brilliant an air-to-air combat aircraft that it is, that it is not specifically the right aircraft for Australia."


About the F-35A

"The Joint Strike Fighter has a wider range of sensors. It can carry larger weapons, a wider range of weapons and a total carriage of more weapons than the F-22.

I guess those who ask the question... there's been discussion in the press again about why shouldn't we just have an all F-22 fleet. I think it's pretty obvious if the F-22 could do everything, the USAF wouldn't need the JSF as well. So they recognise the F-22 can't do everything."

I would hope my Defense Minister actually knew something about defense.  Yeah sure
 
Devilfish
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:05 pm

The Super Hornet buy is being touted as underpinning Australia's aerospace industrial capabilities, and that it could lead to a wider industrial involvement in the JSF program.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...tralias-super-hornet-purchase.html

Quote:
"Australia's A$6 billion ($4.7 billion) purchase of 24 Boeing F/A-18F Block II Super Hornets, announced last week, will underpin the country's aerospace industrial capabilities and could help lead to wider industrial involvement in the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) project."


A similar environment could be in place, especially with the Boeing equipment already in service with the ADF and the civilian sector, where a buy back of the Super Hornets might be arranged with an F-15E+ Super Eagle deal. However, I agree that Australia has to leverage its investments in the JSF (a longer future, barring F-22 acquisition - in which Boeing also has an interest.)
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
KevinSmith
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Wed Mar 14, 2007 4:21 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 18):
...We still expect the US military however to acquire about two and a half thousand of the aircraft in contrast to the 183, or thereabouts, F-22s

Am I reading that correctly? The Aussie's think we are going to get 2,500 F-22s?  confused 
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Stealthz
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:34 am

Quoting KevinSmith (Reply 20):
Am I reading that correctly? The Aussie's think we are going to get 2,500 F-22s?

I don't think so, whilst I have not seen the full release that quote is from it appears Dr Nelson is quoting the projected JSF purchase compared to the relatively few F-22 that even the USAF is getting.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 17):
I cannot believe that the Aussies use the argument that there are financial savings by utilizing a Super Hornet from a legacy hornet operators perspective - the Super Hornet is an almost completely new build aircraft by Boeing that just happened to resemble a legacy Hornet so they could justify bypassing Congressional approval and not have to submit to a fighter jet competition!

I think you answered your own comment here, I think the ability to pass the SuperBug off as an upgraded Hornet was not lost on the Australian buyers either. It allowedthe perception that this was really a stopgap plan and not intended to be permanent (Doubt those aircraft will ever have US livery painted on them though)
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:48 pm

Quoting KevinSmith (Reply 20):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 18):
...We still expect the US military however to acquire about two and a half thousand of the aircraft in contrast to the 183, or thereabouts, F-22s

Am I reading that correctly? The Aussie's think we are going to get 2,500 F-22s?

If he is confusing the USAF F-22A buy with the USAF, USN, and USMC buy of the F-35A/B/Cs, then I really have to question why this guy is the Aussie Defense Minister.


Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 19):
A similar environment could be in place, especially with the Boeing equipment already in service with the ADF and the civilian sector, where a buy back of the Super Hornets might be arranged with an F-15E+ Super Eagle deal. However, I agree that Australia has to leverage its investments in the JSF (a longer future, barring F-22 acquisition - in which Boeing also has an interest.)

Who does Australia think will be interested in Block 2 F/A-18E/Fs in 2020? These airplanes are going to eventually replace the RAAF F/A-18A/Bs. An F-15E+ deal is better for them now.
 
Stealthz
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:35 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 22):
If he is confusing the USAF F-22A buy with the USAF, USN, and USMC buy of the F-35A/B/Cs, then I really have to question why this guy is the Aussie Defense Minister

As I said earlier, I believe he is comparing NOT confusing the F-35 buy with the with the F-22 program.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 22):
Who does Australia think will be interested in Block 2 F/A-18E/Fs in 2020? These airplanes are going to eventually replace the RAAF F/A-18A/Bs.

IMHO, no one. We will buy and keep these F-18/F(wouldn't surprise if we buy more!)
In an ideal world some F-15x would be a good thing but we are getting SuperBugs for the same reason the USN did... it was that or nothing.

Having had little faith in Defense Ministers of late and with all due respect to the good Dr, he seems to have a better grasp of the big picture than his recent predecessors.
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
baroque
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:25 pm

How does the Super Hornet handle turbulent air? To judge from the 7.30 report of 15 March 2007, it has a few opponents lined up. And the department seems willing to leak that it did not want the plane. Sounds like a problem. Nelson still has to explain what he is going to do with the Super Sprites. The Hornets might in the end sting the nice Dr Nelson.
 
Devilfish
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:26 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 24):
How does the Super Hornet handle turbulent air? To judge from the 7.30 report of 15 March 2007, it has a few opponents lined up.

Are those the same people who were against Oz's involvement in and purchase of, the JSF? IMO, the Superbug's tenacity would only be as good as the steadfastness of those backing it within Australia. To be fair, the F/A-18E/F looks to be the most pragmatic choice as a pinch hitter for the ADF.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...007/03/13/212600/ultra-hornet.html

Even LockMart's putative "F-16F Block 70" on offer to India may not clear the critical time hurdle, not to mention the commonality factor with in-service equipment - should they be given a chance to propose a solution.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...hter-competition-changes/index.php

Quote:
"F-16 Fighting Falcon (Lockheed, USA). Presumably, Lockheed's "Block 70" offering would be an upgraded version of the F-16E Block 60 "Desert Falcon" currently serving with the UAE."


AIR_F-16F_Block_60_UAE.jpg
F-16F "Desert Falcon"
(click to view full) http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...ages/AIR_F-16F_Block_60_UAE_lg.jpg

Although we may quickly see the Superbug in a trade-in arrangement or disappear altogether if Australia commits to an early F-35 order, or a Super Eagle buy (provided Boeing could deliver it at roughly comparable costs and in the same time it would take them to complete the F/A-18E/F stopgap measure.)

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...offer-jsf-partners-price-deal.html

And of course, one cannot discount the Eurofighter, Gripen and Rafale challenges.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
baroque
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:32 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 25):
And of course, one cannot discount the Eurofighter, Gripen and Rafale challenges.

From the interest shown to date, it would appear that each of these has difficulty flying in the reverse gravity fields that are found in Australia!  Big grin It is difficult to see that any non US front line fighter or bomber has been seriously considered, well possibly since the Mirage.

The shuffling over the JSF dates and prices are not doing the project any favours in the general view although the Minister seems totally enamoured. One might even wonder if the JSF is making buying new planes from Airbus look easy.  stirthepot 
 
Devilfish
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Sun Apr 22, 2007 1:36 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 26):
The shuffling over the JSF dates and prices are not doing the project any favours in the general view although the Minister seems totally enamoured.

Especially when one sees reports such as this.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...imates-us-aircraft-costs/index.php

Quote:
"Some examples of PCU and numbers for aircraft DID has covered include:

* $ 5.6M UH-145 Light Utility Helicopter (322)
* $ 10.5M ARH-70 Advanced Reconnaissance Helicopter (512)
* $ 26.6M CH-47F Chinook heavy lift helicopter - low R&D (512)
* $ 29.6M MH-60S Naval helicopter (267)
* $ 46.1M MH-60R Multi-mission naval helicopter (254)
* $119.2M MV-22B Osprey tilt-rotor (458)
* $121.1M CH-53K Naval heavy lift helicopter (156)
* $219.5M VH-71 "Marine One" Presidential helicopters (28)

* $ 93.9M F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet (494)
* $ 98.4M C-130J Hercules transport (82)
* $102.1M C-5M RERP refurbish/re-engining (111)
* $104.6M EA-18G Growler (80)
* $111.1M RQ-4 Global Hawk UAV (54)
* $122.0M F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (2,458)
* $233.2M E-2D Advanced Hawkeye naval AWACS (75)
* $286.6M P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft (114)
* $328.8M C-17A Globemaster III (190)
* $354.9M F-22 Raptor (184)

Note that all production numbers represent US purchases only."


Although proponents were quick to point out that export prices were closer to production costs.

So the debate continues.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...nveils-airpower-doctrine/index.php

Quote:
"Australia's Liberal Party government has begun to respond to its detractors, which include a number of unaffiliated critics, foreign policy/defense think tanks, and the opposition Labor Party, who are demanding 'an immediate review of the Government's air capability plan.... and... press the US Administration for access to the F-22 Raptor to expand our air capability options....'"


I thought of posting this on the IASF F-22 thread, but this seemed to be the more proper venue as discussion there had already veered off the topic of Israel.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
baroque
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:36 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 27):
Especially when one sees reports such as this.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...imates-us-aircraft-costs/index.php



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 27):
* $ 93.9M F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet (494)

Bloody hell, and ouch and similar noises!! But our eager beaver Min Def is still hot on the trail to get stung by the Super Hornet. In an av thread Lightsaber was noting that an engine that seems to be the Hornets is suffering woes, if I interpreted it correctly. If that is so, another reason for making haste slowly.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 27):
So the debate continues.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...nveils-airpower-doctrine/index.php

Quote:
"Australia's Liberal Party government has begun to respond to its detractors, which include a number of unaffiliated critics, foreign policy/defense think tanks, and the opposition Labor Party, who are demanding 'an immediate review of the Government's air capability plan.... and... press the US Administration for access to the F-22 Raptor to expand our air capability options....'"

We have an election soon, and while the predictions at this stage for the last three were inaccurate, the indication are there might be a change in the guard in Canberra. Nobody has asked Rudd what flights of fancy he has for defence, although when he was in Washington last week I dare say a couple of folk might have raised the issue.
I suspect the fat lady has yet to sing.
 
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:02 am

Is the F-18 F Block II the Rhino with 25000 LB of thurst in each of it's engines?
 
Devilfish
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Sat May 05, 2007 2:04 am

Done deal.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...gns-super-hornet-fighter-deal.html

Quote:
"Australia has signed US foreign military sales contracts worth approximately AUD$2.9 billion ($2.4 billion) for its acquisition of 24 Boeing F/A-18F Block II Super Hornet fighters. The deal, first announced in March, will see the new fighter enter operational service with the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) from 2010 as a replacement for its ageing General Dynamics F-111 strike fighters."


Quoting Baroque (Reply 28):
If that is so, another reason for making haste slowly.

I guess they made haste the usual way.  Smile
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
LY744
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Sun May 06, 2007 12:03 am

I hope this purchase works out better for the Aussies than the ASRAAM deal.



LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
baroque
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:10 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 28):
But our eager beaver Min Def is still hot on the trail to get stung by the Super Hornet.

The eager beaver was part of a losing government and now heads the opposition. It has been commented since the election, that the Super Hornet purchase must be about the only major purchase to have been made against the wishes of the military.

As the ex minister heads the opposition, stand by for a close examination of the contracts. Faulkner was a possibility for Min Def, but has an oversight role and it will be surprising if he is not overseeing this issue. A formidable performer in committee settings.
 
AirRyan
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:14 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 32):
It has been commented since the election, that the Super Hornet purchase must be about the only major purchase to have been made against the wishes of the military.

It's the best bang for the buck with what is available for purchase - think about it - you don't hear the USN complaining about the 400+ Super Hornets they are operating do you?
 
Devilfish
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:07 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 32):
As the ex minister heads the opposition, stand by for a close examination of the contracts.

Is there a realistic chance of the F/A-18E/F contract being modified/rescinded or would this just be an ammo gathering exercise by the Raptor proponents? As it is, the good doctor might well say he had been right pushing for the Super Bug given these latest issues with the JSF.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...-by-serious-design-problems-04311/

Perhaps the new administration has gained some inroads regarding U.S. ITAR prohibitions during its trip to Washington - but what about legislation specifically banning export of the Raptor?
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
baroque
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:52 am



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 34):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 32):
As the ex minister heads the opposition, stand by for a close examination of the contracts.

Is there a realistic chance of the F/A-18E/F contract being modified/rescinded or would this just be an ammo gathering exercise by the Raptor proponents? As it is, the good doctor might well say he had been right pushing for the Super Bug given these latest issues with the JSF.....

Well there are a few others you might need to convince, I am just a messenger.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/11/30/2105721.htm
New Defence Minister questions jet fighter purchase
And this from one of Nelson's own party
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/nationalinterest/stories/2007/2112502.htm
"The opposition leader, Brendan Nelson, may be keen to make a break with the past, but his previous role as Defence Minister may yet come back to haunt him. The new defence minister, Joel Fitzgibbon, has promised to review the previous government's decision to spend $6.6 billion on 24 jet fighters for the Airforce. The Super Hornets are intended to fill gaps which may emerge in Australia's air power, until the commissioned, bells-and-whistles, fifth generation JSF gets off the drawing board. Both the purchase of the Super Hornets and the JSF have been hotly contested in defence circles, with many arguing Australia has been sold a pup. Among Nelson's critics is a Liberal Party backbencher and former defence scientist who has chosen to remain silent on the issue... until now."
Dr Dennis Jensen
Liberal MP for Tangney
Dr Jensen is a former research scientist. The whole of the interview is available on a podcast at the above link.

It ain't over until it is over as they say. He thinks there will be a termination by convenience clause in the contract.
 
AirRyan
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Sun Dec 09, 2007 4:43 pm

The Aussie government is just being foolish here - I bet the RAAF will be happier in the long run with the F/A-18F's than they ever will be with the F-35A's...
 
Devilfish
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Sun Dec 09, 2007 4:45 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 35):
Well there are a few others you might need to convince, I am just a messenger.

Not trying to convince anybody - I have no horse in this race (err, my favored longshot, the Super Eagle - seems to be a non-starter). Just asking if the hurdles could easily be surmounted. Maybe a way out was written in the fine print for this agreement that could benefit a potential switch to the Raptor.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...se-trade-agreement-with-usa-03758/

Quote:
"On Sept 5/07, The Australia-United States Treaty on Defense Trade Cooperation was signed by Australian Prime Minister John Howard and US President George W. Bush. The USA and Canada have had a special agreement for several decades, designed to remove many defense export restrictions on US-Canadian industrial cooperation. In June 2007, Britain and the USA also agreed to a treaty framework.

The new agreements with Britain and Australia were not fully defined when signed, however, and have not been formally ratified.

[.....]

.....Mutually determined security and defence projects where the Commonwealth of Australia is the end-user (which will not include the F-35, since that's a multinational project with its own agreements);



Quoting Baroque (Reply 35):
It ain't over until it is over as they say. He thinks there will be a termination by convenience clause in the contract.

It will be very interesting (to say the least) to see how this plays out.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...bandon-f35-buy-f22s-updated-02681/
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
AirRyan
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:20 pm



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 37):
It will be very interesting (to say the least) to see how this plays out.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...2681/

That argument I could understand - an F/A-18F and potential EA-18G mix combined with an F-22 fleet would be a lot more potent and wise than the F-35A added into the F/A-18F's - just can't revoke the Super Hornet buy at this point with the contracts just being signed, I'm big on the RAAF Super Hornets!
 
ebj1248650
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:05 pm



Quoting KevinSmith (Reply 20):
Am I reading that correctly? The Aussie's think we are going to get 2,500 F-22s?

The point seems to be we're buying more of the Hornet/Super Hornet family( total of about 2,500 airplanes) than we are of F-22As.
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
baroque
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:43 am



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 36):
The Aussie government is just being foolish here - I bet the RAAF will be happier in the long run with the F/A-18F's than they ever will be with the F-35A's...

I would very much like for it to stop being so foolish! You don't want me to list the doubtful programs we have had in the last 10 to 15 years do you. The Kaman S Sprites will do for a start.

Question, how would Super Hornets go against Sukhois with well trained crews on both sides? Not well seems to be the answer.
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:17 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 40):
Question, how would Super Hornets go against Sukhois with well trained crews on both sides? Not well seems to be the answer.

it is a myth that Australia's neighbours our packing more airpower than Australia has. Your not talking about the 4 frames the indonesians have do you?!
 
high_flyr69
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:35 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 40):
Question, how would Super Hornets go against Sukhois with well trained crews on both sides? Not well seems to be the answer.


What you must ask is if the Australian government and ADF are even concerned about such a situation, It seems to me that Australia is far more concerned about whats in our own backyard. Not to mention the RAAF is part of the DEFENCE force, unlike the USA the chances of ANY Australian frontline fighter coming up against Sukhois in an Air to Air is almost nil. We have Navy with Surface to Air and AA to look after that, I can assure you they do a very, very good job after just being part of one of the latest excercises.

Cheers
High_flyr69
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice Doggy' until you find the shot gun
 
baroque
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:56 am



Quoting High_flyr69 (Reply 42):
What you must ask is if the Australian government and ADF are even concerned about such a situation, It seems to me that Australia is far more concerned about whats in our own backyard. Not to mention the RAAF is part of the DEFENCE force, unlike the USA the chances of ANY Australian frontline fighter coming up against Sukhois in an Air to Air is almost nil. We have Navy with Surface to Air and AA to look after that, I can assure you they do a very, very good job after just being part of one of the latest excercises.

At face value, that would mean we do not need anything at all. Way to go with the NZ approach. I rather doubt if the Aus navy presents a credible defence when you look at the length of coastline to be defended, assuming you think that fast jets are the way to defend it. Slow ships are even less credible.
 
AirRyan
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:00 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 40):
Question, how would Super Hornets go against Sukhois with well trained crews on both sides? Not well seems to be the answer.

Thee who sees the other first is usually going to win the fight and with the AESA radars I'd give the edge to the Super Hornets; and if they do come in close I like the NFO's JMHCS and AIM-9X to take care of any possible shortcomings some may assert in the Super Hornet's "dogfighting" capabilities...
 
baroque
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:14 pm



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 41):
it is a myth that Australia's neighbours our packing more airpower than Australia has. Your not talking about the 4 frames the indonesians have do you?!

I had heard a rumour that the Chinese were faintly interested in this plane, but I expect it is just another myth. But you are right, PNGs air force has been greatly diminished of late, well apart from planes flying in supplies of drugs that is.
 
baroque
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RE: Raaf To Buy 24 Super Hornets

Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:14 am

This subject has opened up again under:
Australian Government To Scrap S/H Order... (by QANTAS077 Dec 30 2007 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)

Australian Government To Scrap S/H Order...

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