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TK787
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Turkey Suspends Purchase Of 30 F-16s

Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:34 am

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=106289

The article says it all. In a matter of 4 years, because of the current administrations policies US-Turkey relations went down the drain. It is unbelievable that only 18% of Turkish citizens have favorbale views of US today. Hopefully it doesn't get any worse.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Turkey Suspends Purchase Of 30 F-16s

Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:40 am

I think this is posturing on Turkey's part. The Cyprus Island issue is not very important to the US interest. But, letting Turkish enter Iraq to solve the PKK issue with the Kurds, is a big US issue. The TAF will be shooting themselves in the foot on the F-16C/D Block 50 issue, and again on the F-35A issue. They really need both types of these airplanes, with Iran in the area beginning to rattle sabers. Perhaps they can place a quickie order with the EU for Eurofighters?
 
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RE: Turkey Suspends Purchase Of 30 F-16s

Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:10 pm

"According to well-informed military sources, the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) have been attaching great importance on the attitude of the US over Turkey's outlawed terrorist organization the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), reported to have been preparing for attacks inside Turkey in their bases in neighboring northern Iraq.“Rather than Armenian genocide bill, the PKK issue has the potential to turn upside down Turkish-US strategic relations on the part of Ankara. If the US does not take action against the PKK in northern Iraq or allow the Turkish military to stage a cross-border operation, the THK may even consider to abandon the idea of buying around 100 JSF fighters from the US,” stated one air force source."

If I read the above right, the U.S. is against the cross border raids Turkey feels it needs to make to curb the activities of the PKK. Am I to understand the Turkish government is convinced the U. S. forces in Iraq aren't taking any action against the PKK or is Turkey not happy that enough action is being taken?

As to the suspension of the F-16 purchase, where is the Turkish government likely to go that it can buy comparable or better airplanes soon? Eurofighter and Dassault would need lead time to prepare for production of Typhoons or Rafales while Lockheed Martin has already set the wheels in motion to produce the 30 F-16s.
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kc135topboom
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RE: Turkey Suspends Purchase Of 30 F-16s

Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:01 am

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 2):
If I read the above right, the U.S. is against the cross border raids Turkey feels it needs to make to curb the activities of the PKK. Am I to understand the Turkish government is convinced the U. S. forces in Iraq aren't taking any action against the PKK or is Turkey not happy that enough action is being taken?

No, the US will not allow the TSK to enter Iraq to hunt down the PKK. That is the issue. I do not know if US Forces are actively hunting the PKK for Turkey, on the Iraqi side of the boarder, or not.

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 2):
As to the suspension of the F-16 purchase, where is the Turkish government likely to go that it can buy comparable or better airplanes soon? Eurofighter and Dassault would need lead time to prepare for production of Typhoons or Rafales while Lockheed Martin has already set the wheels in motion to produce the 30 F-16s.

There is also Russia and China they can buy airplanes from. But, you are correct, like the two aero companies in the EU, the Chinese and Russians will need time to spin up production, too.
 
bahadir
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RE: Turkey Suspends Purchase Of 30 F-16s

Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:00 pm

Those additional F16s are not that much needed, even though they would be nice to have as they will have better avionics and weapon systems. This kind of "friendly" chess game was played when the first block of F16s were being produced. US was reluctant to pass the code into the Turkish Armed Forces. This was in early 80s when US-Turkish relations couldn't have been better.

Now with the hatred against US in Turkey being in highest levels of all times, I don't think this news will create any more surprise in public eye.
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TK787
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RE: Turkey Suspends Purchase Of 30 F-16s

Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:26 pm

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=107382

Typhoon looses no time, and revisits last week Turkey to sell 30 of its fighters. Civilians like the idea, but the airforce wants T-3 apperantly not even in production.
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Turkey Suspends Purchase Of 30 F-16s

Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:10 pm

Quoting TK787 (Reply 5):
the airforce wants T-3 apperantly not even in production.

No sh*t - even the partner nations havent received anything other than Tranche 1 at the moment.
 
PADSpot
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RE: Turkey Suspends Purchase Of 30 F-16s

Thu Apr 05, 2007 1:34 am

I think the EU's position on Turkey's actions against the PKK is much stricter than that of the US, who just don't want them to become active in northern Iraq. Any major military operation against the PKK be it within or beyond Turkey's borders, would immediately lead to an abrupt end of arms sales to Turkey (including hundreds of Leopard 2s, Tiger helos and potential EFs) and would nullify Turkey's prospect on EU membership for the foreseeable future.

In fighting the PKK the US are a much better partner than the EU, although they might not allow them to enter Iraq. Exerting pressure over the F-16 or F-35 deal is a pretty myopic idea from from a Turkish perspective ...
 
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RE: Turkey Suspends Purchase Of 30 F-16s

Thu Apr 05, 2007 5:01 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 6):
No sh*t - even the partner nations havent received anything other than Tranche 1 at the moment.

If I were a taxpayer in one of the Typhoon countries I would be outrageous.

More then 20 yrs after the EFA first flight & 10 yrs after the cold war, a enormous sum of money later & we are introducing a fighter without serious stealth, thrust vectoring & ground capabilities (much more important then AA these days..) but hey, it looks good at airshows..

What went wrong?
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Turkey Suspends Purchase Of 30 F-16s

Thu Apr 05, 2007 5:58 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 8):
If I were a taxpayer in one of the Typhoon countries I would be outrageous.

More then 20 yrs after the EFA first flight & 10 yrs after the cold war, a enormous sum of money later & we are introducing a fighter without serious stealth, thrust vectoring & ground capabilities (much more important then AA these days..) but hey, it looks good at airshows..

What went wrong?

Nothing went wrong, we are still proceeding by the plan orginally set out.

The plan was always for there to be multi Tranche development phases, each with their own block standards phased in.

Ground attack capabilities will come with Tranche 1, Block 5 models later this year, with Block 1, 2 and 2B models being upgraded to Block 5 between now and 2009.

Thrust vectoring is still an unknown, with many being of the opinion that it isnt really needed due to the high agility of the aircraft in its current state. BVR capabilities are much much more important in todays arenas than close in dogfighting - pilots are trained to avoid dogfights whereever possible, a long range kill is still a kill, albeit a safer one.

Stealth has been incorporated into the design, but it has never been the most important design feature - all conflicts in the past 20 years by NATO countries have resulted in 'prestealth era aircraft' being highly effective in air dominance, so why spend the mega bucks required to go all out on such a design?

In short, while it is based on a design bed that heavily leant toward an anti-USSR role, its still a very highly capable aircraft that will serve us extremely well for the next 20 to 30 years.
 
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RE: Turkey Suspends Purchase Of 30 F-16s

Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:33 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 7):
In fighting the PKK the US are a much better partner than the EU, although they might not allow them to enter Iraq. Exerting pressure over the F-16 or F-35 deal is a pretty myopic idea from from a Turkish perspective ...

And I'm not sure that the EU would be any less restrictive with regards to Cyprus.
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MCIGuy
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RE: Turkey Suspends Purchase Of 30 F-16s

Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:18 pm

I really couldn't care less. I've always considered them a questionable partner in F-35 anyway, so I think it will be a good thing if they don't get them. Sure, the cost would be higher for the USAF, but chances are someone else will want them if TAF doesn't. We don't need the money but they do need the jets, so let them fly MiGs.  Smile
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bahadir
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RE: Turkey Suspends Purchase Of 30 F-16s

Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:43 pm

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 11):
I really couldn't care less. I've always considered them a questionable partner in F-35 anyway

Questionable partner in what sense? The feeling is mutual when US Army arrested Turkish military officials in Northern Iraq and treated them like Al-Qaida.
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PADSpot
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RE: Turkey Suspends Purchase Of 30 F-16s

Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:59 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 10):
And I'm not sure that the EU would be any less restrictive with regards to Cyprus.

The Cyprus problem is more a problem of pigheadedness on the Greek-cypriotic and mainland-turkish side, with Turkey not willing to withdraw its troops entirely from a unified Cyprus and Greek-cypriots rather inflexible on couple of minor matters. The EU is taking a rather lax position on this, by unilaterally treating North-Cyprus as a de-facto part of the EU. They only became angry when Turkey did the opposite thing and even intensified the boycott against South-Cyprus (by not letting their ships into Turkish harbors etc...).

The PKK problem on the other hand is a real thread to the territorial integrity of Turkey, Iraq and Iran and a entirely different dimension. The EUs position here is that they just not tolerate a EU-candidate to take military action against parts of its population, which was the case in the mid-nineties. If Turkey is seeking for support on this, the US currently guaranteeing Iraq's security, as well as the other neighbors are natural partners. They cannot expect much from the EU here so why tick off the US?
 
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RE: Turkey Suspends Purchase Of 30 F-16s

Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:15 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 13):
The EU is taking a rather lax position on this, by unilaterally treating North-Cyprus as a de-facto part of the EU.

The EU consider SOUTHERN Cyprus (Greek Cyprus) as admissable to the EU, but not North Cyprus (Turkish Cyprus). This has always been the case, since it was Turkey that invaded, not Greece.

Southern Cyprus entered the EU in May 2004, and since the EU and UN consider Northern Cyprus an occupied land of the Republic of Cyprus (represented by the Southern Cypriot government), Turkish Cypriots are considered citizens of the Republic of Cyprus, giving them status as EU citizens - although the Northern Cypriot government has no status in the EU and infact is not recognised internationally.

Quote:

They only became angry when Turkey did the opposite thing and even intensified the boycott against South-Cyprus (by not letting their ships into Turkish harbors etc...).

Turkey has never let Southern Cypriot ships into its harbours, as it doesnt recognise the state.
 
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RE: Turkey Suspends Purchase Of 30 F-16s

Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:01 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 14):
The EU consider SOUTHERN Cyprus (Greek Cyprus) as admissable to the EU, but not North Cyprus (Turkish Cyprus). This has always been the case, since it was Turkey that invaded, not Greece.

Off topic though, but I keep it short: The EU does net see a North and South. In the eyes of the EU there is ONE Cyprus that is legally represented by what we call the Greek-speaking part. Because of that there is no official EU external border between the two parts of Cyprus which normally would have stricter protection. There are no EU tariffs in place and no special Visas are required by the EU. That's was I meant with "lax position". From the Turkish everything is highly regulated.

IIRC this threads was about the Turkish suspension of a 30 aircraft F-16 deal ... let's get back to that!
 
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RE: Turkey Suspends Purchase Of 30 F-16s

Sun Apr 08, 2007 12:33 pm

Quoting Bahadir (Reply 12):
Questionable partner in what sense? The feeling is mutual when US Army arrested Turkish military officials in Northern Iraq and treated them like Al-Qaida.

Questionable in the sense of trusting them not to "share" the technology. Don't feel bad, I feel the same way about Israel. I don't think IDFAF should have the F-35 either, for the same reasons.
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TK787
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RE: Turkey Suspends Purchase Of 30 F-16s

Sun Apr 08, 2007 10:02 pm

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 16):
Questionable in the sense of trusting them not to "share" the technology.

Nobody questioned Turkey's partnership when more Turkish troops died than any other European country defending against communism in the Korean War.
Israel will have the F-35s, why not? Just look at Iran, how did they get the Tomcats?
 
GDB
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RE: Turkey Suspends Purchase Of 30 F-16s

Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:08 am

While a Turkish Typhoon might not be that likely, it cannot be ruled out.

So what if it's only Tranche 1 so far? That is how it is with this generation of combat aircraft.
Tranche 2 is on the way, the Tranch 1's look, for the RAF at least, to get a basic air to ground fit too, basically intergrating designation/targetting pods with smart bombs.

The Rafale entered French Naval service with only an air to air capability-a pretty basic one at that, adding on other capabilites is preceeding no faster, relatively speaking, than Typhoon.
Then the F-22, although in this case politics may have forced an early basic air to ground capability sooner than maybe planned originally.

The truth of all of these are that they are expensive and sophisticated, all those millions of lines of software code, you don't just bolt a pod here, a bomb there, on to them.
 
MCIGuy
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RE: Turkey Suspends Purchase Of 30 F-16s

Mon Apr 09, 2007 12:09 pm

Quoting TK787 (Reply 17):
Nobody questioned Turkey's partnership when more Turkish troops died than any other European country defending against communism in the Korean War.

I know, my dad fought right along side them, at Chosin.

Quoting TK787 (Reply 17):
Israel will have the F-35s, why not?

Because anit-missile tech we sold them ended up in China.
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art
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RE: Turkey Suspends Purchase Of 30 F-16s

Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:14 am

Extract from the thread starter's link:

"around 300 F-16s already in Turkey's inventory"

I'm baffled as to why Turkey needs such a number of fighters. Can anyone explain, please?
 
atmx2000
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RE: Turkey Suspends Purchase Of 30 F-16s

Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:57 pm

Quoting Art (Reply 20):
Extract from the thread starter's link:

"around 300 F-16s already in Turkey's inventory"

I'm baffled as to why Turkey needs such a number of fighters. Can anyone explain, please?

They are in a dangerous part of the world.
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LAXintl
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RE: Turkey Suspends Purchase Of 30 F-16s

Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:37 pm

Quoting Art (Reply 20):
I'm baffled as to why Turkey needs such a number of fighters. Can anyone explain, please?



Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 21):
They are in a dangerous part of the world.

 checkmark  Turkey sits smack in the middle of a rough neighborhood.

During cold war days it bordered the USSR. Today it sits in a unstable region with neighbors such as Iran, Iraq, Syria, its own difficult relations with Armenia, Greece and Cyprus. Basically Turkey is surrounded by potential hot spots.

Also dont forget Turkey maintains the 2nd largest armed forces in NATO after the US and maintains overseas deployments to Afghanistan (currently leads ISAF force), Lebanon and Bosnia.
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Devilfish
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RE: Turkey Suspends Purchase Of 30 F-16s

Sat May 12, 2007 1:53 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 15):
IIRC this threads was about the Turkish suspension of a 30 aircraft F-16 deal ... let's get back to that!

Getting back to it gives us this.....

http://www.f-16.net/news_article2325.html

Turkey signs contract to buy 30 F-16 block 50+ jets

Quote:
"May 11, 2007 (by Lieven Dewitte) - Turkey signed a $1.78 billion deal today to buy 30 F-16 Fighting Falcons from Lockheed Martin.

Under the deal, part of a wider program to modernise NATO member Turkey's military, the aircraft will be produced, assembled and tested by Turkish aerospace firm Tusas in Ankara. Turkish Engine Industries (TEI) will be conducting the assembly, test and delivery of 42 F110 turbofan engines in Eskişehir.

There were some disagreements earlier on over the price and delivery schedule of the F-16s and over operational restrictions the US imposed on the use of the jets."


It seems the "disagreements" were resolved.
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