L-188
Topic Author
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

Uscg Needs Larger Helicopters.

Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:44 pm

I have had this rant for a while but today on the TV I saw footage that confirms one of my suspicions.

The USCG operates helicopters that are too small for the rescue mission, especially those that conducted over cold northern waters.

Growing up on the Alaska coast, the USCG operated two primary helicopters The HH-3 and the HH-52.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Willam W. Sierra
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © George Canciani



These are the two helicopters that replaced them, the HH-65 Dolphin and the HH-60J Jayhawk.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Shawn Miller
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Shawn Miller



As you can see their is a pretty decent decrease in cabin space from the HH-52 to the HH-65 and from the HH-3 to the HH60J. And that is where my complaints come in. The lack of cabin space limits the number of surviors you can have on board, the space available to triage, and the ablility to carry equipment to work on the people you hoist.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Gerhard Plomitzer



This viewpoint of mine was reinforced watching the premier of seaons III of "Deadliest Catch" on Discovery Channel tonight. The second half of the episode was filmed from a USCG Jayhawk conducting S&R work south of the Alaska Pennisula. I thought the footage itself was pretty good because the helo lanched from my old haunt at Cold Bay (I took both the HH-60 and HH-65 photos earlier at this town, I consider it my hometown). Anyway the show ends with one of the four fisherment being winched on-board after 40 minutes in the water, and very hypothermic. The which operate has just started to cut the survival suit off the guy, There is no sign of the rescue swimmer, I assume he is still in the water at this point.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Michael Durning



If the USCG had a large cabin sized helicopter, like a EH-101 Comerant or a S-92, there would be plenty of room for the crew to work on survivors have all the equipment needed for cold water recussitation., and still conduct lifts. It would be able to have enough room that a swimmer, a winch operater, and a medic could be carriered, so hoists could be ongoing while the surviors are being worked on. There is no room for an extra person in a Jayhawk, and no way in hell you could pull that off in a Dolphin, Hell the damm basic is half the size of the chopper.

I call for the USCG procurement genuises to equip the USCG with the proper helicopters for the job.
Lives do depend on it.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
User avatar
N328KF
Posts: 5807
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

RE: Uscg Needs Larger Helicopters.

Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:52 pm

I dunno, they probably need a mix. Today, I saw a Jayhawk here at San Diego dropping guys onto a cutter via fastrope because it didn't have room to land. I don't know if the Jayhawk is the smallest thing in the area. They were right by NAS North Island, but everything I've seen from the Navy here are Seahawks, so they wouldn't have been able to help. Not sure why they had to get those guys onto that tiny cutter that badly, but they did for some reason.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
ZBBYLW
Posts: 1612
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:17 am

RE: Uscg Needs Larger Helicopters.

Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:16 pm

HAHA wow I looks like us Canucks have something right for a change for our military/coast guard vs the USofA. In all seriousness however, I do agree that a big helicopter is needed for some of the more challenging rescues. The shear size of the CH-149 makes it much more capable then what you guys are using. Hopefully the brass will smarten up and amend this problem.
Keep the shinny side up!
 
FlyUSCG
Posts: 520
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:29 pm

RE: Uscg Needs Larger Helicopters.

Thu Apr 05, 2007 1:42 am

Well I can't speak for all their reasons, but I do know that getting larger helo's isn't always practical. The HH-60 as it is already produces hurricane force winds in a hover. At a certain point, the rotor wash just becomes too great and will hinder the rescue. And then I'm sure economics come into factor. The USCG doing more than most with less than everyone.
Go Trojans! Fight On!
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 10997
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Uscg Needs Larger Helicopters.

Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:14 am

There are, and have been larger helo choices for the USCG to use. But, the problem, for the USCG is it is not part of DOD, thus cannot get all the money it needs. The USCG needs a lot of helos, so they budget for smaller, less costly ones. You can but almost 3 HH-60Js for the cost of one (of the new) CH-53Ks the USMC ordered.

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 3):
The USCG doing more than most with less than everyone.

Oh, how I hated that term when I was in the USAF, "doing more with less". That is a political catch phrase left over from the '70s. What everyone forgets about that type of policy, is you rapidly reach a point of deminishing returns. It easily goes into cutting capabilities, instead of waste. The USAF, USN, USMC, nad US Army learned that under the Carter Administration. The USCG needs to learn that now. Perhaps they need to reevaluate the "Deep Water" program and funnel some of that money into buying already proven systems, from cutters to helos.
 
StevenL
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:13 am

RE: Uscg Needs Larger Helicopters.

Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:45 am

I was talking to a guy in the Coast Guard and he said the HH-65 doesn't have a lot of weight lifting capability.

If they reached there max weight or filled up the cabin space they would have to leave the diver in the water until the Helo went back to base dropped off the rescuees and go back to get the diver. This true?

Also the Jayhawk to my understanding is a fantastic aircraft. Its fairly new and varients of it are used in the USA, USAF, and USN. (Blackhawk, Pavehawk, etc.) Isn't the CAF Comerant an old helo that is no longer in production?
Nikon D70s. Nikkor 18-70; Nikkor 70-300G; SB-600. KBFI, KSEA, KPAE Spotter
 
WrenchBender
Posts: 1662
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 5:59 am

RE: Uscg Needs Larger Helicopters.

Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:39 am

Quoting StevenL (Reply 5):
Isn't the CAF Comerant an old helo that is no longer in production?

No, first delivery 2002. It is the same A/C chosen to replace the S61 for the Marines Presidential flight. It replaced the early sixties era Labrador and Voyagers (CH46's)

L-188
If the USCG is going to try and stay with a multirole platform capable of going to sea on the cutters, they pretty well have to stay with the Dolphin and Jayhawk or go to a bigger platformed cutter to handle something the size of the CH149/EH(US)101 which BTW is a 35K Lb helo.


WrenchBender
Silly Pilot, Tricks are for kids.......
 
StevenL
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:13 am

RE: Uscg Needs Larger Helicopters.

Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:27 am

Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 6):
No, first delivery 2002. It is the same A/C chosen to replace the S61 for the Marines Presidential flight. It replaced the early sixties era Labrador and Voyagers (CH46's)

Learn something new everyday.

Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 6):
If the USCG is going to try and stay with a multirole platform capable of going to sea on the cutters, they pretty well have to stay with the Dolphin and Jayhawk or go to a bigger platformed cutter to handle something the size of the CH149/EH(US)101 which BTW is a 35K Lb helo.

But what I stated above, isn't the Dolphin an obsolete aircraft compared to the Jayhawk?
Nikon D70s. Nikkor 18-70; Nikkor 70-300G; SB-600. KBFI, KSEA, KPAE Spotter
 
WrenchBender
Posts: 1662
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 5:59 am

RE: Uscg Needs Larger Helicopters.

Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:01 am

Yes the Dolphin is a little older design but were bought new in the early eighties for the CG and the Jayhawk came on line mid eighties. I agree the J is the superior A/C, but it is too large for the cutters as currently operating. I have worked blue water ops with the USCG ships and A/C, and the Cutter flight decks are tiny in comparison to ours.

WrenchBender
Silly Pilot, Tricks are for kids.......
 
FlyUSCG
Posts: 520
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:29 pm

RE: Uscg Needs Larger Helicopters.

Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:20 am

Quoting StevenL (Reply 7):
But what I stated above, isn't the Dolphin an obsolete aircraft compared to the Jayhawk?

I dont think obsolete is the correct word. They can't really be compared to each other as the Daulphin is short-range and the Jayhawk is medium range (I guess the H-3's were long range?). The Jayhawk can do more just because of the nature of it's creation while the Daulphin is more a a civil turned military helo (I think it was initally a civilian design). Plus all of the Daulphins were just upgraded to HH-65C's and based on what I've heard from pilots, it is a "completely different aircraft". It got new more powerful engines, an almost entirely new cockpit and some other things. The HH-60's are also just beginning to go in for conversion to MH-60T's. The major change there will be an all glass cockpit and MUCH better visibility. Go to www.uscg.mil/deepwater for all the info on the HH-65 re-engining and the MH-60T's. The HH-60 is listed under "MRR-Medium Range Recovery" and the HH-65's are listed as "MCH-Multi-mission Cutter Helicopter". Go to the fact sheets on the left side of the homepage for all the Deepwater assets info.
Go Trojans! Fight On!
 
L-188
Topic Author
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Uscg Needs Larger Helicopters.

Thu Apr 05, 2007 12:16 pm

Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 6):
If the USCG is going to try and stay with a multirole platform capable of going to sea on the cutters, they pretty well have to stay with the Dolphin and Jayhawk

Agree completely, Before the 80's the only cutters that had hangers where the Hamiliton Class and the Icebreakers. All the cutters that have followed have pretty much been designed with the dolphin in mind.

I am not sure about the Haley, She might be able to take a Jayhawk, I am pretty sure that all the Bears can't----What an f'ing lemon.

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 3):
The HH-60 as it is already produces hurricane force winds in a hover. At a certain point, the rotor wash just becomes too great and will hinder the rescue.

Legitimate point, I would point out that the USCG, USAF, and CDNCG, have done lifts with much larger helicopters including the CH-53, CH-46, HH-3 and EH-101.

Quoting StevenL (Reply 5):
Also the Jayhawk to my understanding is a fantastic aircraft.

Agreed and I wouldn't be having this concern if the HH-60 had been around to replace the HH-53. But that aircraft didn't happen.

Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 8):
Yes the Dolphin is a little older design but were bought new in the early eighties for the CG and the Jayhawk came on line mid eighties

Jayhawks are acutally a bit newer, they didn't replace the HH-3 up here until the early 1990's.

Just a bit of a side note, the Dolphin was the best of two bad choices at the time, The two helo finalists from what I have been told where the Dolphin and the Bell 222, which was powered by the same lousy engines.

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 9):
Plus all of the Daulphins were just upgraded to HH-65C's and based on what I've heard from pilots, it is a "completely different aircraft". It got new more powerful engines, an almost entirely new cockpit and some other things.

They only had what? 3 of them go down with engine troubles over the years? I think there was a family that made a serious run at sueing the USCG over the deaths of their family crewmembers. They needed to be upgraded 10 years ago, and then they could have the helicopter that they should have had in the first place.

Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 8):
I agree the J is the superior A/C, but it is too large for the cutters as currently operating.

I have a dirty little secret, most of these rescue missions aren't being flown from ships, they are being flown from either Air Station Kodiak or Sitka, or from a forward land based civilian airfield. About the last time I can think of a helo launched from a USCG ship making the news during a rescue was during the Saleydang-Ayu (SPL) wreck-the USCG lost a Jayhawk on that run. It was making runs to the Alex Haley and winching surviors down to her helo deck. The HH-65 from the Haley was also flying in that operation.

So since these missions are being flow from land based fields, I don't think the ability to land on ship is a major consideration in this case.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Uscg Needs Larger Helicopters.

Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:51 pm

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 3):
Well I can't speak for all their reasons, but I do know that getting larger helo's isn't always practical. The HH-60 as it is already produces hurricane force winds in a hover. At a certain point, the rotor wash just becomes too great and will hinder the rescue. And then I'm sure economics come into factor. The USCG doing more than most with less than everyone.

Lack of funding is the major hindrance of all Coast Guard capital spending. It's been that way since the 1970's, and it probably was a major driver before then as well.

When you take lack of funding with incompetent leadership, you have a recipe for disaster.

The Bear class cutters are a disgrace. The Coast Guard was given a choice - get the cutter with the capabilities you really need but fewer of them in number versus a less capable cutter in the quantities you want, and the Coast Guard predictably took the latter, leaving them with a cutter that can't operate in the north Pacific or Bering Sea. Really stupid, but that was just one of a long line of stupid procurement/engineering decisions.

Don't want to forget the 1980's midlife rebuild of the the existing High Endurance Cutters. Some really brilliant people said "let's upgrade the weapons systems, the electronics, and the habitability of these cutters, and leave the main engines alone." Which has turned out to be a serious blunder, as there is at least one 378 cutter that hasn't been able to complete a patrol for over 2 years owing to serious problems with the main propulsion plant, and every one of the other 11 cutters has experienced significant problems over the last decade.

Next let's consider the Dauphin and the Falcon. When it was delivered, the crews immediately complained about the lack of power, and shortly thereafter, had to contend with serious corrosion problems because "surprise," the aircraft actually got wet! The CG should have gone to Congress immediately and asked for money to install proper engines on the Falcon, but didn't. The Falcon was so unreliable - again, because of a shortsighted engine choice - that we used to joke that the CG version of the missing man formation was one plane and three empty slots, because most of the Falcon air stations in the 80's were lucky to have one of their birds out four in a operating condition. A/S Sacramento in particular had some notorious hangar queens.

Back to ships. the 110 patrol boat is an amazing cutter, but early on, crews noted that the structural integrity was less than ideal when compared to the 82' and 95' class they replaced. In other words, they simply weren't going to last as long. So what did the mental giants in CGHQ decide to do as part of Deepwater? Cut them in half and add 13 feet! And the result? Every one of the converted cutters have been ordered to remain at the dock until the serious hull fracture problem is solved.

And of course we have the spectacle of the new National Security Cutter being delivered with - oh yes, structural integrity problems! Problems that the Coast Guard engineers noted almost 3 years ago. And the response of the Coast Guard leadership? Let's just keep giving Lockheed Martin more money.

My sources tell me that more Congressional oversight is on the way, and not a moment too soon.

The sad part is, someone ought to be court martialled, but most likely no one will be held accountable.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
There are, and have been larger helo choices for the USCG to use. But, the problem, for the USCG is it is not part of DOD, thus cannot get all the money it needs.

True. But the problem is, the Coast Guard rarely asks for the money it needs.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 10):
I am not sure about the Haley, She might be able to take a Jayhawk, I am pretty sure that all the Bears can't----What an f'ing lemon.

See above. You actually have a good idea. We should paint the entire Bear class a pleasing shade of lemon yellow.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 10):
I have a dirty little secret, most of these rescue missions aren't being flown from ships, they are being flown from either Air Station Kodiak or Sitka, or from a forward land based civilian airfield. About the last time I can think of a helo launched from a USCG ship making the news during a rescue was during the Saleydang-Ayu (SPL) wreck-the USCG lost a Jayhawk on that run. It was making runs to the Alex Haley and winching surviors down to her helo deck. The HH-65 from the Haley was also flying in that operation.

So since these missions are being flow from land based fields, I don't think the ability to land on ship is a major consideration in this case.

Bingo. CG helos routinely hopscotch the Aleutians and the Bering Sea from Kodiak.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
60Mech
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:51 am

RE: Uscg Needs Larger Helicopters.

Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:46 am

As a Flight Mechanic, I would love to work out of a larger helicopter. The Jayhawk is a fine and sturdy platform. It is difficult to bring a litter in with a patient that is not ambulatory. There have been cases where many people have been brought on board the helo. The record for the Jayhawk is 26 survivors in late 200 or early 2001 (helo from Elizabeth City NC). A lot of the "Old Guard" lament about the H-3's and how much better they were, the 60 and the 65C both do a very good job. The 60 has fairly good legs, back in February I ferried a 60 to Bermuda for a SAR case 200 miles West of Bermuda (800 miles West of Elizabeth City). Within eight hours of the SAR alarm going off the survivors were picked out of the water and on dry land. The Tango model 60 promises to bring new capabilities regarding avionics but most of the remaining systems remain the same. Having looked at the prototype this afternoon, it will be a while before it flies. It is many months behind schedule but I am looking forward to seeing it fly. It promises us new navigation, communication and sensing capabilities in the cabin in addition to what the pilot's have. While it would be nice to have larger helos, what we have are very capable and will serve the Coast Guard for many years.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Uscg Needs Larger Helicopters.

Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:19 am

Quoting 60mech (Reply 12):
It is many months behind schedule but I am looking forward to seeing it fly.

Of course it's late. It's a "Deepwater" project.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
MissedApproach
Posts: 678
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:12 am

RE: Uscg Needs Larger Helicopters.

Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:37 am

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 3):
The HH-60 as it is already produces hurricane force winds in a hover.

AFAIK, the 'hawk family is known for severe rotor wash. EH-101/Cormorant alleviates this through the use of an advanced rotor design. Suffice to say there is more to the rotor wash problem than just aircraft weight.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 10):
most of these rescue missions aren't being flown from ships

I would think a larger, & more importantly longer ranged helicopter would be a better choice in the far North. Aside from the obvious advantages of rescuing more people, you can also carry more equipment, which offers a lot more mission flexibility.
The Canadian military has always chosen large helicopters for over water operations- most navies still don't fly something as large as a Sea King from something as small as a Frigate. The Canadian Coast Guard...not so much. Their Helicopter fleet numbers 27, composed of BO-105, Bell 206, Bell 212, & S-61N.
Can you hear me now?
 
L-188
Topic Author
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Uscg Needs Larger Helicopters.

Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:55 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 13):
Of course it's late. It's a "Deepwater" project

No kidding,

I am one that things the USCG has let it's rescue and fisheries enforcement roles go To S#!t since 9/11.

Hell just look what happened at St. Paul this year.

Five boats got caught in the harbor ice, and there is currently no vessel that can handle those conditions.

Sedge and the 180 footers are all retired, they where the ones that where ice strengthened. Hell, the Mackinaw is the only icebreakter that has actually done real work in the last 20 years. The others are just expensive cruise ships for scientists.

Here is a video of the "Top 10 USCG rescue videos" Note how little room there is in the Dolphin in the first video.

<>
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
L-188
Topic Author
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Uscg Needs Larger Helicopters.

Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:27 pm

Here you go, a complete video of the Alaskan Monarch rescue.

Illustrates a time when the USCG had the proper equipment to operate in the ice. The larger HH-3 Pelican, and the Storis.

I think you can see Halls120 waving from the bridge.

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Uscg Needs Larger Helicopters.

Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:38 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 16):
Here you go, a complete video of the Alaskan Monarch rescue.

Illustrates a time when the USCG had the proper equipment to operate in the ice. The larger HH-3 Pelican, and the Storis.

I think you can see Halls120 waving from the bridge.

 blush 
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2398
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: Uscg Needs Larger Helicopters.

Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:03 am

I still yet to hear any logical explanation (money doesn't cut it given the USCG mission and the way our government pisses it away anyways) as to why the V-22 Osprey is not ideally suited for the USCG mission? Not the smaller BA609 that I think is too small, but the regular full sized V-22 - if you strategically placed them throughout their speed and range I would think would pay dividends for the mission of the USCG.

The V-22 can perform the role of the C-130 and the new CASA combined with the ability to dip down and actually peform a rescue can it not?

There is an aft hoist that appears to work just fine - combined with the V-22's auto-hover/auto-pilot I don't see a problem there, am I wrong?



http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w2/rdrebers/USCGV22fifty.jpg

[Edited 2007-04-12 01:05:31]
 
FlyUSCG
Posts: 520
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:29 pm

RE: Uscg Needs Larger Helicopters.

Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:12 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 18):
The V-22 can perform the role of the C-130

I really doubt the V-22 has a 13 hour endurance or can carry as much equipment as the C-130 does. I also can't imagine it having an AOR from Alaska, to Hawaii, to Central America (if based at Sacramento).
Go Trojans! Fight On!
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Uscg Needs Larger Helicopters.

Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:55 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 18):
I still yet to hear any logical explanation (money doesn't cut it given the USCG mission and the way our government pisses it away anyways)

Money IS an issue. Not just the acquisition costs, but O&M as well. The simple fact is, the Coast Guard never will have a budget the size necessary to support leading edge - and arguably unproven at this point - technology, which is what the V-22 represents. And the Coast Guard mission would be better served by continued purchases of C-130's instead of the less capable CASA, and the purchase of long range heavy lift helicopters to complement the makeover of of the H-60's and H-65's.

Until the Coast Guard becomes part of DoD - which will never happen - they will be captives of a less well funded department.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
MissedApproach
Posts: 678
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:12 am

RE: Uscg Needs Larger Helicopters.

Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:37 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 20):
Money IS an issue.

As a matter of fact, I believe an earlier thread on the CASA aquisition made a point that it was driven in large part by thinly spread budgets, in that C-130's were not affordable- First Flight Of U.S.C.G. HC-235A (by FlyUSCG Nov 10 2006 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)
Can you hear me now?
 
L-188
Topic Author
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Uscg Needs Larger Helicopters.

Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:04 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 18):
I still yet to hear any logical explanation (money doesn't cut it given the USCG mission and the way our government pisses it away anyways) as to why the V-22 Osprey is not ideally suited for the USCG mission

I think it is ideally suited, I know if I was in the water I would sure as hell prefer the rescue bird to be comming at be a 300kts rather then 140kts.

And to that the USCG's tendency to be somewhat conservative, it took them a good 10 years after the Seahawk entered service before they decided to go ahead an field the Jayhawk.

I can't blame them for not wanting to be on the bleeding edge of technology.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 20):
Until the Coast Guard becomes part of DoD - which will never happen

They would have to give up their law enforcment mission.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 20):
and the purchase of long range heavy lift helicopters to complement the makeover of of the H-60's and H-65's.

Agreed, S-92's with commonality to the Jayhawks would be ideal. EH-101's proably the runner up, although withe the USAF getting those Pave-CH-47's those might not be a bad choice either. They definately want to be attached to somebody else's support network.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 20):
And the Coast Guard mission would be better served by continued purchases of C-130's

I hate to say that I don't think the C-235's are going to be that bad of a choice-FOR THE LOWER 48. But they definately don't have the legs for Alaska.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Uscg Needs Larger Helicopters.

Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:31 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 22):
And to that the USCG's tendency to be somewhat conservative, it took them a good 10 years after the Seahawk entered service before they decided to go ahead an field the Jayhawk.

That gap was driven more by the fact that the H-3's were still viable airframes when the Jayhawk entered service, and the more pressing need to replace the wonderful but tired H-52's.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 22):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 20):And the Coast Guard mission would be better served by continued purchases of C-130's
I hate to say that I don't think the C-235's are going to be that bad of a choice-FOR THE LOWER 48. But they definately don't have the legs for Alaska

Nor do they have the legs for the maritime patrol mission in the Eastern Pacific. If we had more MPA today, we'd be seizing more cocaine today.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
L-188
Topic Author
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Uscg Needs Larger Helicopters.

Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:43 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 23):
Nor do they have the legs for the maritime patrol mission in the Eastern Pacific. If we had more MPA today, we'd be seizing more cocaine today.

Agreed, but I don't know if the Herk is the best platform for that sort of patrol. Herks are great aircraft but they are slow and they don't have 360 degree radar coverage.

We put a lot of P-3's out in the desert, those seem to be better platforms for that mission. And they could task out heavy maint, training and spares to the Navy. Shoot, it doesn't matter what branch you are end, every pilot regardless of service learns to fly herks at Little Rock AFB.

But I give them credit for at least buying an aircraft that has a rear ramp for dropping pumps and other supplies.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 23):
That gap was driven more by the fact that the H-3's were still viable airframes when the Jayhawk entered service, and the more pressing need to replace the wonderful but tired H-52's

Too bad they couldn't have sped up the Jayhawk entry to replace the H-52 instead of HH-65.

Seriously without consideration for money, it would be nice to take the remaining Dolphins and go ahead and assign them permentaly to the hangered ships (Hamiltons, Haley, Healy, the Polars and the Bears). Any extra ones just rotate them out of depot, kind of like the Canadians are doing with their Hornets now.

And then a mix of Jayhawks and Cormerants for the heavy duty rescue work.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Uscg Needs Larger Helicopters.

Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:56 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 24):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 23):
Nor do they have the legs for the maritime patrol mission in the Eastern Pacific. If we had more MPA today, we'd be seizing more cocaine today.

Agreed, but I don't know if the Herk is the best platform for that sort of patrol. Herks are great aircraft but they are slow and they don't have 360 degree radar coverage.

We put a lot of P-3's out in the desert, those seem to be better platforms for that mission. And they could task out heavy maint, training and spares to the Navy. Shoot, it doesn't matter what branch you are end, every pilot regardless of service learns to fly herks at Little Rock AFB.

While the 130's aren't optimal, they are better than nothing. The MPA out there right now is the Nimrod - it has an excellent ability to spot small fast movers. More P-3's would be nice, but Customs doesn't have the money, and the Navy is moving away from the P-3 as fast as they can.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 24):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 23):
That gap was driven more by the fact that the H-3's were still viable airframes when the Jayhawk entered service, and the more pressing need to replace the wonderful but tired H-52's

Too bad they couldn't have sped up the Jayhawk entry to replace the H-52 instead of HH-65.

Seriously without consideration for money, it would be nice to take the remaining Dolphins and go ahead and assign them permentaly to the hangered ships (Hamiltons, Haley, Healy, the Polars and the Bears). Any extra ones just rotate them out of depot, kind of like the Canadians are doing with their Hornets now.

And then a mix of Jayhawks and Cormerants for the heavy duty rescue work

I wouldn't want to have a Dolphin assigned to a Bear class permanently if I was CO of one of those ships. Those ships are tender enough without the extra added topside weight.

Another outstanding Coast Guard procurement fu*k-up.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
FlyUSCG
Posts: 520
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:29 pm

RE: Uscg Needs Larger Helicopters.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:55 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 24):
We put a lot of P-3's out in the desert, those seem to be better platforms for that mission.

I dont think a P-3 would make a good C-130 replacement. Perhaps a supplement, but even that would be pushing it. They have no cargo loading door and thus can't drop or even simply haul large, oversized cargo. I would love to see a P-3 in USCG colors, but it seems it's limited ability to perform the CG missions would keep it from ever wearing them.
Go Trojans! Fight On!
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Uscg Needs Larger Helicopters.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:42 am

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 26):
Quoting L-188 (Reply 24):We put a lot of P-3's out in the desert, those seem to be better platforms for that mission.
I dont think a P-3 would make a good C-130 replacement. Perhaps a supplement, but even that would be pushing it. They have no cargo loading door and thus can't drop or even simply haul large, oversized cargo. I would love to see a P-3 in USCG colors, but it seems it's limited ability to perform the CG missions would keep it from ever wearing them.

We are talking about the C-130's ability to perform a P-3 mission, not the other way around.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
L-188
Topic Author
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Uscg Needs Larger Helicopters.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:16 pm

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 26):
I dont think a P-3 would make a good C-130 replacement.

I was speaking only of using the Orions on long range drug patrols. You are correct it isn't as flexable as a Herk, and from what I have seen, that rear ramp is a godsend in that role for dropping materials.

Another option would be to pull some of the Falcons out of the desert, and send them back to France to be retrofitted for the TPE-731 engines. Dassault already has an SB to replace engines on civilian Falcon 20 with this mill and has been doing it for years, so the engineering work is done and it works.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 25):
I wouldn't want to have a Dolphin assigned to a Bear class permanently if I was CO of one of those ships. Those ships are tender enough without the extra added topside weight.

Now that is just sad.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Devilfish
Posts: 5181
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

RE: Uscg Needs Larger Helicopters.

Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:23 pm

Update:

Lockheed and Northrop just got the boot.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...Wn8AAAEAAHsmTY8AAAAB&modele=jdc_34

Quote:
"The failures of the Coast Guard Deepwater program may signal a long overdue acknowledgment in some quarters that defense contractors can not and should not be put in charge of running major government programs worth billions of dollars without adequate oversight. The primary goal of major companies like Lockheed and Northrop Grumman is to make money – a motivation that has repeatedly led to billions of dollars in cost overruns on almost any major venture undertaken by the private sector on behalf of government in recent years."
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
L-188
Topic Author
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Uscg Needs Larger Helicopters.

Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:34 pm

I put up a thread over in non-aviation about the scraping of the 123 foot cutters.

Frankly thought I wonder if the critisims of the LM/Northrop companies is entirely deserved, some of the flack needs to go to the USCG leadership for their procurement decisions.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
bingo
Posts: 278
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 11:08 am

RE: Uscg Needs Larger Helicopters.

Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:33 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 30):
Frankly thought I wonder if the critisims of the LM/Northrop companies is entirely deserved, some of the flack needs to go to the USCG leadership for their procurement decisions.

The Washington Post has had a field day tearing up Deepwater and it's leadership. Search the Post's site for some of the stories...good reading...
 
60Mech
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:51 am

RE: Uscg Needs Larger Helicopters.

Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:15 am

Correcting my earlier post, I meant that the survivors were 200 miles East of Bermuda. Whether or not the Tango model has been delayed due to Deepwater I don't know. AFAIK it has been delayed b/c of technical problems. The rotor wash in a 60 can be a problem. there is a "sweet spot" though. Once you maneuver the helo to that spot (approx. 2-5 feet behind the cabin door) it is quiet. I don't believe that an MV-22 would be able to perform the same missions that a HH-60 would be able to perform. The CASA will be a fine aircraft once they work the bugs out. The CASA will replace the Falcon and some of the C-130's. The C-130J's that the CG has will be stationed out of Elizabeth City.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: mats01776, SXI899 and 14 guests