keesje
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Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:46 pm

Israel has approached the USA about acquiring Lockheed Martin F-22s as concern mounts about new threats to the country’s regional air superiority.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...lks-with-usa-over-f-22-orders.html

I think Russia soo far did not export SU34/35 mig29M to the Middle east, but who knows what happening in the back ground, oil dollars are available. The same thing might happen in the Far East. between Japan, India and China..

http://www.ausairpower.net/000-B004-ESA-Su-32FN-1S.jpg
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PADSpot
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:23 pm

Wouldn't it be a double standard if the US deny F-22 sales to Australia, but allows them to Israel. In the end Australia is a far safer place in terms of un-wanted technology transfer than the middle east. Or is it just that Australia has not enought lobby in congress, which Israel indisputably has ... ?
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:59 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 1):
Wouldn't it be a double standard if the US deny F-22 sales to Australia, but allows them to Israel. In the end Australia is a far safer place in terms of un-wanted technology transfer than the middle east.

True... But then I don't think the US is really denying a F-22 sale to Australia? Given Australia's staunch support of US policies, that would be a really strange decision... especially as Australia might actually pay for the aicraft itself

Peter
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Stealthz
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Fri Apr 20, 2007 10:28 pm

Why would they bother selling to Isreal?
Wouldn't it be more efficient to fly them directly to China?

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 1):
Wouldn't it be a double standard if the US deny F-22 sales to Australia,

Of monumental proportions. It would be a gigantic slap on the face and one that I am positive the Australian Govt or people would not take lightly.

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 1):
Or is it just that Australia has not enought lobby in congress, which Israel indisputably has ... ?

That would be the key!,
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Stealthz
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Fri Apr 20, 2007 10:31 pm

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 2):
True... But then I don't think the US is really denying a F-22 sale to Australia?

Peter, despite our staunch support they did officially deny the sale of Raptors to Australia.
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deltadc9
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:21 pm

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 4):
Peter, despite our staunch support they did officially deny the sale of Raptors to Australia.

Not completely true, the current position of the US Government is:

"Regarding the F-22, our current position is that the airplane will not be made available to foreign military sales"

Which was the exact response to Austria, and not specific to Australia by The US Deputy Defence Secretary, Gordon England.

The position is an all or nothing, black and white stand for all allies. If that position changes it will be for ALL our closest allies, I will bet money on that.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
Lumberton
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sat Apr 21, 2007 12:25 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 1):
Wouldn't it be a double standard if the US deny F-22 sales to Australia, but allows them to Israel.

Yes, but such considerations go out the window with all things Israel.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 3):
Why would they bother selling to Isreal?
Wouldn't it be more efficient to fly them directly to China?

Many of us have noted this in the past. Of course the answer is Yes.

Frankly, given the absolute rancor in the Congress at the moment, I can't see it happening. After the next round of elections, who knows?

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 4):
Peter, despite our staunch support they did officially deny the sale of Raptors to Australia.

Did the Howard government officially request the F-22? I know there is a very vocal minority in Australia lobbying for this aircraft, but AFAIK the Australian government hasn't officially requested. Do you have information indicating that it has?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sat Apr 21, 2007 1:12 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 5):
Which was the exact response to Austria, and not specific to Australia by The US Deputy Defence Secretary, Gordon England.

14-02-2007 - Australia -- The US Deputy Defence Secretary, Gordon England, has written to Defence Minister Brendan Nelson saying the US will not export the world's most deadly warplane - the F-22 Raptor - to Australia. The US statement ends a growing debate among defence experts about which plane should replace the RAAF's ageing F-111 strike bombers and form the front line of the nation's future air force.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 6):
Did the Howard government officially request the F-22? I know there is a very vocal minority in Australia lobbying for this aircraft, but AFAIK the Australian government hasn't officially requested. Do you have information indicating that it has?

Funnily enough, rather than requesting the F-22 there is some suggestion that some in the government used "back channels" to get the US to refuse sales so as to defuse the "vocal minority" that wanted the Raptor.
Personally, at the price, I don't think it would be viable for the RAAF. Nice to have the best there is, but hardly useful if you can't afford enough to have a viable force.
Kind of interesting how there are some that think that replacing the worlds best strike/attack aircraft(likely the best ever)with an air supremacy fighter makes sense!
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sat Apr 21, 2007 1:22 am

Directed principally to our Australian members but I would welcome's anyone's comment on the matter -

Pardon my ignorance but who or what does Australia consider its biggest potential military threat? Obviously a country has a need to defend itself against all possible agression but whom specifically, if anyone, does Australia gear its military to fight against?

Thanks,

Mike
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ptrjong
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sat Apr 21, 2007 1:52 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 8):
whom specifically, if anyone, does Australia gear its military to fight against?

Good question, but the unlikeliness of Australian F-22s ever getting close to a war zone (since the Taliban don't have an air force) makes the reported US refusal to sell them for good money even more amazing to me. That's xenophobia. The attitude that the F-22's secrets would be any less safe in Australia than in the hands of the likes of Lt Col Ollie North...  Wow!

Peter
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Stitch
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sat Apr 21, 2007 2:50 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 8):
Pardon my ignorance but who or what does Australia consider its biggest potential military threat? Obviously a country has a need to defend itself against all possible agression but whom specifically, if anyone, does Australia gear its military to fight against?

Pure speculation on my part, but should China makes a play for the Spratly Islands (for their oil), Australia could conceivably be drawn into a regional conflict in support of the "allies" [US, Taiwan, the Phillipines, perhaps even Vietnam] as a forward base.

Also, Australia and Indonesia have had their ups and downs in relations, so if Al-Qaeda's operations in Indonesia bear fruit, Australia might feel the need to take action.
 
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:23 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
I think Russia soo far did not export SU34/35 mig29M to the Middle east, but who knows what happening in the back ground, oil dollars are available.

No, but Saudi Arabia is buying Eurofighters.

Israel has successfully lobbied against sales of fighters to SA in the past I believe.
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Beta
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:31 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):
Pure speculation on my part, but should China makes a play for the Spratly Islands (for their oil), Australia could conceivably be drawn into a regional conflict in support of the "allies" [US, Taiwan, the Phillipines, perhaps even Vietnam] as a forward base.

No conceivable scenario in which Australia gets invloved in Spratly Island dispute. It's difficult to imagine even the US gets involved militarily, let alone Australia.
Back to topic, there is no country in the ME could challenge the Isreali Airforce dominance in the air in any serious way. Lebanon? Syria? Iran? Saudi Arabia? Egypt? I think not. I know Saudi Arabia is buying the Typhoon, but historically The Saudis have never proven to be able uitilize their fancy weapon systems to their fullest potential due to shortfall in training, maintenance, poor tactics and the political nature of the regime. Air dominance as someone mentioned involved more training and tactics than just the airplane itself. Besides there is a huge USAF presence in the ME theater. No need for Isreal to operate the F22. I think the argument of qualitative military edge is just a negotiation tactic to lobby for Isreali Aircraft Industry to participate in avionics, and weaponry development for the F22. However, I could be wrong and ready to hear discussion.

[Edited 2007-04-20 20:36:43]
 
deltadc9
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:56 am

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 7):
14-02-2007 - Australia -- The US Deputy Defence Secretary, Gordon England, has written to Defence Minister Brendan Nelson saying the US will not export the world's most deadly warplane - the F-22 Raptor - to Australia. The US statement ends a growing debate among defence experts about which plane should replace the RAAF's ageing F-111 strike bombers and form the front line of the nation's future air force.

You simply do not get it, Congress and the Pentegon have not agreed to export it PERIOD. It has nothing to do with Austrailia.

The quote below is what was said. No exports period untill an agreement is reached INTERNALLY in DC.

You seem to think that if you asked GM to sell you a Camaro and they said "no, we are not even making them" that they singled YOU out. Wrong, no Camaros for anyone, and no F-22s either until we can internally come to an agreement.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 5):
"Regarding the F-22, our current position is that the airplane will not be made available to foreign military sales"

Austrailia was never singled out, that is in your head. This may change in the future, it may not. If it does, South Korea, Japan, Israel, and others like Austrailia will be reevaluated of those countries are still interested.
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Lumberton
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:42 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 6):
Did the Howard government officially request the F-22? I know there is a very vocal minority in Australia lobbying for this aircraft, but AFAIK the Australian government hasn't officially requested. Do you have information indicating that it has?



Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 13):
You simply do not get it, Congress and the Pentegon have not agreed to export it PERIOD. It has nothing to do with Austrailia.



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 7):
Funnily enough, rather than requesting the F-22 there is some suggestion that some in the government used "back channels" to get the US to refuse sales so as to defuse the "vocal minority" that wanted the Raptor.

I'm going to conclude from all of this that there was never an official request by Australia to purchase the Raptor. So why the indignation?

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 9):
Good question, but the unlikeliness of Australian F-22s ever getting close to a war zone (since the Taliban don't have an air force) makes the reported US refusal to sell them for good money even more amazing to me. That's xenophobia. The attitude that the F-22's secrets would be any less safe in Australia than in the hands of the likes of Lt Col Ollie North... Wow!
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
deltadc9
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:21 am

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 9):
makes the reported US refusal to sell them for good money even more amazing to me. That's xenophobia. The attitude that the F-22's secrets would be any less safe in Australia than in the hands of the likes of Lt Col Ollie North...

Why is everyone making this SO complicated?

To export military equipment, the US government must come to an agreement internally to export it, and under what conditions. Until the yes position is agreed upon, then the answer is no due to the laws that cover this sort of thing.

If you remember, in the past we have taken a while to make these decisions, and this is no different. We have exported fighters with less capability than the corresponding USAF and Navy models, and recently more capability. The fact that South Korea has more advanced F-15s than the USAF has some people pissed off, and caused many to take a closer look with regards to the F-22 and F-35.

The F-35 was a victim of this internal rift in DC, which almost led to several partners throwing in the towel. Anyone familiar with the internal battle compares it to a divorce/child custody war.

This has nothing to do with the relationship with one of, or any of our greatest allies, it is simply against US policy to export this plane at this time, to anyone.
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keesje
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:30 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 11):
Israel has successfully lobbied against sales of fighters to SA in the past I believe.

Still they got F15s yrs ago.

What about the sale of Su-30 fighter jets and S-300V anti-aircraft ballistic missiles to Syria and Iran? Rumours are non MKI SU-30 versions were confortable with F15s in recent execises.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/F-15_Su30_Mir2000.jpg/744px-F-15_Su30_Mir2000.jpg
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Blackbird
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:40 am

It would be logical that we are selling to Israel because of their powerful lobby, AIPAC which has a heavy influence in our country (To put it lightly)


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TeamAmerica
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:44 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 6):
Yes, but such considerations go out the window with all things Israel.

Really? Is there a case where the US exported equipment to Israel that was denied to everyone else?

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 9):
The attitude that the F-22's secrets would be any less safe in Australia than in the hands of the likes of Lt Col Ollie North...

 confused You may need to re-read your history. Ollie North was involved in some bizarre activities, but he did not give away any secrets.
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deltadc9
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sat Apr 21, 2007 6:03 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 18):
Is there a case where the US exported equipment to Israel that was denied to everyone else?

In a way. For example, we used to strip down the export models of fighter jets for most countries, but Israel got theirs with all the bells and whistles the USAF had.

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 18):
You may need to re-read your history. Ollie North was involved in some bizarre activities, but he did not give away any secrets.

I did not even want to ask...

Never saw what the big deal was. We had been doing that stuff for decades, and still do.
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checksixx
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sat Apr 21, 2007 6:14 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 19):
In a way. For example, we used to strip down the export models of fighter jets for most countries, but Israel got theirs with all the bells and whistles the USAF had.

No not really...all the advanced stuff was Israeli specific, no secret about that...Check
 
keesje
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sat Apr 21, 2007 6:34 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 19):
For example, we used to strip down the export models of fighter jets for most countries, but Israel got theirs with all the bells and whistles the USAF had.

Both the Russians and US used to do that, keeping the best for themselves (mostly in term of radars, missiles and ECM equipment). Even for the Israelis sometimes, who upgraded them themselves..

I think with Iran an dother countries seen as a thread and some of those countries buying high tech equipment the situation could get uncomfortable.

(Equivalent)
Radar Cross Section F22: 0.0001m^2,
F15 RCS ~7-8 m^2.

RCS_dBSM.gif" width="567" height="514" border=0>
Su30 radar dectation range. RCS.htm" target=_blank>http://www.f22totalairwar.de/F-22_To...tealth_Radar_Cross_Section_RCS.htm
For modern SA radars (like the S-300V) this is a little different (more powerfull) but you get the picture.

The Su-30 MKI active radar detects the F-22 at like 7.5 nm, an F15 at about 100nm.

For close air combat the current NATO doctrine tactic for encountering Mig29´s & Su Flankers is to avoid engagements unless there are clear tactical advantages.

So if significant numbers of Su-30Mki enter the middle east, there is possibly a new situation for Israel; having the second best fighter.

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Lumberton
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:25 am

Keesje, could you check out the link? I couldn't get it to work. Very intriguing data.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
keesje
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:44 am

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:25 am

The US really needs to sell the F-22 to Australia, Isreal, and Japan.
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:40 am

Okay, of course the US has every right not to sell a weapon system if it doesn't like to. And I don't really think Australia would fork out the money for the F-22. But if it wanted to, I think it would be kind of rude and counter productive to refuse this request by just saying 'not for sale', because Australia is such a staunch, stable ally. I guess the program could use an export sale, too. Hence my surprise. But I guess there isn't a serious Australian request.

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 18):
You may need to re-read your history. Ollie North was involved in some bizarre activities, but he did not give away any secrets.

Okay, I will, thanks.

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 18):
Is there a case where the US exported equipment to Israel that was denied to everyone else?

Maybe the AH-64, when nobody else got it? Or did nobody else want to buy it initially?
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Beta
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:57 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 24):
The US really needs to sell the F-22 to Australia, Isreal, and Japan

Why would the US "really needs" to sell the F-22 to Australia and Isreal? I can understand it makes sense for Japan given its proximity and need for territorial defense against a fast modernizing PLA. As for Australia, why would it need the F-22? Against who? Indonesia? That'd be an expensive overkill. With regard to Isreal, who in the region could seriously challenge the Isreali airforce dominance in the air both in quality and quantity, and especially now being backed up by the presence of the USAF? Sure, Iran could buy 2-3 squadron of latest Sukhoi, but lacks airborne radar capability, no refueling capability, no experience in integrating these assets into an effective package, while the IAF has these and some more in terms of training and experience, tactics.
Maybe for economic and financial consideration, foreign sales may reduce the cost of the F-22 to the USAF?
 
Stealthz
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:44 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 13):
You simply do not get it, Congress and the Pentegon have not agreed to export it PERIOD. It has nothing to do with Austrailia.



Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 13):
Austrailia was never singled out, that is in your head. This may change in the future, it may not. If it does, South Korea, Japan, Israel, and others like Austrailia will be reevaluated of those countries are still interested.



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 14):
So why the indignation?

Gentlemen, you ascribe to me much more indignation than I actually feel.
DeltaDC9, the release I saw of Asst Sec. England's communication was addressed to Australia and specifically said "Australia", I accept that an identical communication was likely sent to his counterparts in many other partner nations at the same time. That was all I was saying.
The indignation may become more palpable if the USA turns around and sells them to Israel.(If still refusing sales to others)

Although I will reiterate, I agree with Dr Nelson that the F-22 is not the right plane for Australia, even if, and that is a very big if, we could afford enough of them.
Even if hypothetically we obtained F-22 in enough numbers to perform the air supremacy role(against who??), we would still likely need nearly as many F-35 as currently planned to perform the strike role that is and likely to be for some time the main RAAF tasking.

This ministerial release from Dr Brendan Nelson, Minister for defence should clear things up.
http://www.minister.defence.gov.au/NelsonMintpl.cfm?CurrentId=6374

Having said all that I am not convinced an all F-35 air force is a brilliant move either, but I guess with 24 bright shiny new F/A-18F it won't be!

Cheers

[Edited 2007-04-21 03:08:10]
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echster
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:48 am

F-22 Attractive To Japan As Missile Threats Grow

"I'm aware the Japanese are interested in the F-22," Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said last week in response to an Aviation Week question. "I'm also aware of our concerns about what we export and don't export of our high technologies. The Japanese are very close friends. We're committed to protecting Japan, so we'll work our way through it. We all need to be concerned about both ballistic and cruise missile defense. It's something that we...need to work on."

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...an%20as%20missile%20threats%20grow
 
Lumberton
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:09 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 23):
Something went wrong, here you are

http://www.f22totalairwar.de/F-22_To...tealth_Radar_Cross_Section_RCS.htm

Thanks for fixing the link, but what exactly is this site? It looks like one of the "war game" sites.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
Devilfish
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:42 am

Did Israel decide that they no longer want or need 100 F-35As? .....
Israel Wants 100 F-35A And 24 F-22A... (by AirRyan Jun 30 2006 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)

I think most of the views expressed in the above thread still apply.

It's interesting how threads about IASF matters quickly evolve into discussions of Raptor export to Japan and Australia. It could be most likely due to the lack of input from an Israeli viewpoint.
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Boeing4ever
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:00 am

Japan, yes.

Australia, yes.

Israel...F*#k no.

Easy question. Don't sell to nations that sell our Tech to our enemies.

F-22 is our toy and we don't have to share. If they want, they can go buy some Eurofighters or something.

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TheSonntag
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:11 am

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 31):
F-22 is our toy and we don't have to share. If they want, they can go buy some Eurofighters or something.

Actually I think it is not unlikely that they might order the Eurofighter. Germany always had a policy of delivering high-tech equipment to Israel, like these new, very good subs.
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:46 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 32):

Israel hasn't bought a European warplane in 40 years (Mirage 5, embargoed by France)
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
LMP737
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sun Apr 22, 2007 5:57 am

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 31):
Japan, yes.

Australia, yes.

Israel...F*#k no.

Easy question. Don't sell to nations that sell our Tech to our enemies.

F-22 is our toy and we don't have to share. If they want, they can go buy some Eurofighters or something.

It was twenty years ago that Toshiba sold milling equipment to the USSR. The equipment was used to make quieter propellers for the Soviet sub fleet.
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MCIGuy
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:02 am

The government reinstated the FMS ban last summer and AFAIK, have no plans to repeal it soon. As of now, Israel will not and should not get Raptors. IMO, it'll take several years for Israel to prove that the tech we sell them won't end up in Chinese hands just so they can make a few bucks.  Wink
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Stitch
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:19 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 21):
The Su-30 MKI active radar detects the F-22 at like 7.5 nm, an F15 at about 100nm...So if significant numbers of Su-30Mki enter the middle east, there is possibly a new situation for Israel; having the second best fighter.

At 7.5nm, the Su-30 would already be about to be snuffed by a Sidewinder/ASRAAM, assuming it was not already downed by an AMRAAM tens of nautical miles earlier. Plus Israeli C&C and AWACS capabilities are superior to any of their neighbors, since I don't believe Russia is exporting the Il-76 AWACS nor China the KJ-2000.
 
keesje
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sun Apr 22, 2007 7:47 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 36):
At 7.5nm, the Su-30 would already be about to be snuffed by a Sidewinder/ASRAAM, assuming it was not already downed by an AMRAAM tens of nautical miles earlier. Plus Israeli C&C and AWACS capabilities are superior to any of their neighbors, since I don't believe Russia is exporting the Il-76 AWACS nor China the KJ-2000.

A su30 can track & fire on a F15I from 100nm.


For Awacs like targets something is under devlopment with India (Novator KS-172). Standard AA are R-77/RVV-AE - up to 6 (Range: Head-On 100 kms, ARH), R-27RE1/TE1/EP - up to 6 (Range: Head-On 70-130 kms, SARH/ IR/ Passive) and R-73RDM1/2 - up to 6 (Range: 30 kms, IR).

Close range combat: http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircra..._Untitled_Aviation_Video-8176.html
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Boeing4ever
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:28 am

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 34):
It was twenty years ago that Toshiba sold milling equipment to the USSR. The equipment was used to make quieter propellers for the Soviet sub fleet.

Toshiba isn't an American company beholden to Washington DC and our nation's national security. Lockheed Martin is. America did not sell milling equipment to Toshiba, Toshiba makes it.

When Israel buys military equipment from us that contains sensitive technology, their part of the agreement is to not stab us (their ONLY real ally) in the back by selling it to our enemy. That they did is brazen and stupid...especially considering what kind of punishment we're capable of handing them economically and militarily. The IDF doesn't look so tough when it goes up against us.

Without us, Israel would be bankrupt and toothless. Perhaps this sounds like an "Ugly American" talking, but think about it. If we put a weapons embargo on Israel...

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LMP737
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:42 am

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 38):
Toshiba isn't an American company beholden to Washington DC and our nation's national security. Lockheed Martin is. America did not sell milling equipment to Toshiba, Toshiba makes it.

Are you saying that if the equipment was ingeniously produced by Israel then it would be okay? When comes right down to it it's irrelevant who produced the milling equipment. What is relevant is that it was sold to the Soviets at the height of the cold war. If, god forbid, the cold war had gone hot the USN would have been facing subs made quieter thanks to that milling equipment.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 38):
That they did is brazen and stupid...especially considering what kind of punishment we're capable of handing them economically and militarily. The IDF doesn't look so tough when it goes up against us.

So are you advocating attacking Israel militarily? If you are may I remind you the US military is stretched thin right now.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 38):
Without us, Israel would be bankrupt and toothless. Perhaps this sounds like an "Ugly American" talking, but think about it. If we put a weapons embargo on Israel...

You said it not me.
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ptrjong
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:02 am

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 38):
The IDF doesn't look so tough when it goes up against us.

I think the US government should be extremely upset about Israel selling its technology to a third power...
But I can't believe my eyes here...
If I'm reading this correctly, and I think I am, you're not saying, 'Isarel, watch out, you may need our millitary support one day,' no, you are, in fact, raising the possibility of US military action against Israel. crazy 

This is obviously only one person's flawed view, but it's so absurd at this point that I still want to point out that the sabre-rattling by some of the would-be commanders-in-chief in this forum is disgusting. talktothehand 

I'm not saying this because I'm affiliated with Israel in any way, but because I feel that civilized people just don't talk like this.

By the way, I think the IDF is very tough... You're confusing quality and quantity.

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 39):
So are you advocating attacking Israel militarily? If you are may I remind you the US military is stretched thin right now.

You read it too... and you're dismissing it only for military reasons? crazy 

Peter
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
LMP737
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:05 am

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 40):
You read it too... and you're dismissing it only for military reasons?

No I'm not dismissing it on just military reasons alone. The thought of attacking another country over something like this makes no sense to me.
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atmx2000
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:11 am

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 38):
Toshiba isn't an American company beholden to Washington DC and our nation's national security. Lockheed Martin is. America did not sell milling equipment to Toshiba, Toshiba makes it.



Quoting LMP737 (Reply 39):
Are you saying that if the equipment was ingeniously produced by Israel then it would be okay? When comes right down to it it's irrelevant who produced the milling equipment. What is relevant is that it was sold to the Soviets at the height of the cold war. If, god forbid, the cold war had gone hot the USN would have been facing subs made quieter thanks to that milling equipment.

Given that the US bears significant material responsibility for Japan's defense, anything that they do that jeopardises us and our military forces makes our job more difficult. So what Toshiba did was actually worse.
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Confuscius
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:24 am

It was twenty years ago that Toshiba sold milling equipment to the USSR. The equipment was used to make quieter propellers for the Soviet sub fleet.


But it didn't help the Russians to make the best televisions in the world.  

[Edited 2007-04-22 04:26:24]
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SCAT15F
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:29 pm

I thought Australia already decided on the F-18E/F as the F-111 replacement?
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:52 pm

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 41):

Glad to hear Smile
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Stealthz
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:05 pm

Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 44):
I thought Australia already decided on the F-18E/F as the F-111 replacement?

Well the JSF is actually the planned F-111(& F/A18A-B) replacement but we have ordered 24 F/A-81F as an "interim" solution to cover any potential delay in F-35 deliveries. My guess is they will turn into a long term asset, whether the JSF is delayed or not I do not see these Rhinos being returned or traded in.

Cheers
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Lumberton
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:17 am

Reuters is reporting that the Japanese are considering the F-22.

http://yahoo.reuters.com/news/articl...2-37_T328235&type=comktNews&rpc=44

Quote:
TOKYO, April 22 (Reuters) - Japan's defence ministry is considering U.S. F-22A stealth fighters and F-15FX fighters as replacements for some of its ageing fighter jets, Kyodo news agency reported on Sunday quoting sources close to the matter.

The ministry was unavailable for comment, but an official said last month that it was examining options as it plans to start replacing its fleet of 60 F-4 fighters as training aircraft in the next couple of years.

A U.S. Congress ban on exports of its most advanced and most expensive fighter jet, the F-22A Raptor built by Lockheed Martin (LMT.N: Quote, Profile , Research) and Boeing (BA.N: Quote, Profile , Research), had raised the possibility that Japan would seek other options, including European jets.

But Kyodo said Japanese defence officials believe the ban will be lifted in the future.

Quoting sources, Kyodo said Japan was considering buying the F-15FX first and then buying the F-22A after the export ban is lifted.

Hopefully, the "ban" will be lifted and stifle all the righteous indignation here. But be prepared to dig deep....
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:06 am

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 39):
Are you saying that if the equipment was ingeniously produced by Israel then it would be okay? When comes right down to it it's irrelevant who produced the milling equipment. What is relevant is that it was sold to the Soviets at the height of the cold war. If, god forbid, the cold war had gone hot the USN would have been facing subs made quieter thanks to that milling equipment.

Toshiba didn't "stab us in the back". It's their technology, they can do with it as they please.

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 39):
So are you advocating attacking Israel militarily? If you are may I remind you the US military is stretched thin right now.

No, but I do believe Israel should respect it's only true ally more.

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 40):
I think the US government should be extremely upset about Israel selling its technology to a third power...
But I can't believe my eyes here...
If I'm reading this correctly, and I think I am, you're not saying, 'Isarel, watch out, you may need our millitary support one day,' no, you are, in fact, raising the possibility of US military action against Israel.

This is obviously only one person's flawed view, but it's so absurd at this point that I still want to point out that the sabre-rattling by some of the would-be commanders-in-chief in this forum is disgusting.

I'm not saying this because I'm affiliated with Israel in any way, but because I feel that civilized people just don't talk like this.

I'm not advocating bombing them back to the stoneage...but a stronger word or two should go against them. They have gone unpunished for selling off our technology.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 42):
Given that the US bears significant material responsibility for Japan's defense, anything that they do that jeopardises us and our military forces makes our job more difficult. So what Toshiba did was actually worse.

In the end, it's Toshiba's milling equipment, not a piece of high tech weaponry sold off indiscriminately.

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 40):
By the way, I think the IDF is very tough... You're confusing quality and quantity.

Am I? Their quality comes from us. We know their weaponry, their tactics, their doctrine, etc. Heck we make their weaponry. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

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Blackbird
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RE: Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders

Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:26 pm

Boeing4Ever,

You don't get it. We don't have a choice in selling our technology to Israel. If the US refused, they would start with character assasination, make us out to be anti-semitic nazis. Should we continue to refuse, they would start with actual assasination, on anybody that was involved in refusing Israel their money.

The Israeli government knows no bounds, they believe they are superior breed of man destined to rule the world one day. They also know how to manipulate, take control of things, and coerce people. They are so ruthless that I speculate they would be willing to assasinate american politicians, even leaders, knowing that that's all that it would take to get us to submit and start giving them their money and supplies again. After all, we have no spine, and would not continue to resist giving them supplies as they kept whacking our politicians!


To whatever the nut that said the US should bomb Israel back to the stone-age is obviously not a very knowledgeable individual. Our military is stretched thin, the Israeli's have all the technology we have, and have even better technology than ours. Every single Israeli has to serve, meaning all their population know how to fight. And America has a lot of Jews, and almost all Jews have a loyalty to Israel on a religious level, which by nature makes them Jews/Israel-First, America-Second. If our government tried that, Jews in our government, in our society would quickly undermine that effort in every single way.


BTW: I think it's logical to conclude that if I disappear, get some bizarre illness, or cancer, die under suspicious circumstances, have a heart-attack, "commit-suicide" or who knows, it's probably for posting this message!


Andrea Kent

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