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kc135topboom
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Boeing Has A Usaf KC-767 Stored?

Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:11 am

Apparently Boeing has a KC-767 already built for the USAF. It is stored at PAE without engines. Is this an aircraft from the original USAF KC-767 lease deal from 2003?

Will it become the prototype test airplane? The airplane is listed as a B-767-200EZC, indicating it is a combi version. Since it is not the new B-767-200LRF Boeing is now offering to the USAF, it can become a USAF test aircraft later, and not part of the USAF 179 tanker order.

http://www.seattle-deliveries.com/767deliveries800-999.htm

It is the first B-767 listed.
 
Oroka
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RE: Boeing Has A Usaf KC-767 Stored?

Sat Apr 21, 2007 2:34 pm

They wouldnt need to use it as a prototype as the KC-767 is already flying, for other countries. USAF will be getting the KC-767Adv (dont think that is the actual name), with alot of upgrades and improvements to the basic 767.

::edit::

You already know all that jive Big grin

[Edited 2007-04-21 07:37:02]
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Boeing Has A Usaf KC-767 Stored?

Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:17 am

Even though the USAF will use a lot of data from the Italian and Japanese KC-767 testing, I think they will still plan their own test program.

It could become the test to break example. Or perminately become a YKC-767 and used in other USAF test programs, too, much like the NC/NKC-135s are now.
 
aeroweanie
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RE: Boeing Has A Usaf KC-767 Stored?

Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:29 am

Boeing has announced that the KC-767 now being offered to the USAF is sufficiently different from the 767-200EZ built for the lease deal that they won't finish the -200EZ airframe. For one thing, KC-767 specific structural mods will be performed on the Everett line and the -200EZ lacks them, as they were planning on doing the mods in Wichita, much like the Italian and Japanese airframes. My bet is that the -200EZ will be scrapped. A similar question hangs over the 767-400ER airframe ordered by the USAF for the E-10A program. Now that the E-10A is cancelled and the airframe is in production, it too might be scrapped or flown directly to AMARC upon completion.
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Boeing Has A Usaf KC-767 Stored?

Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:35 am

It would be silly to scrap a mostly complete airframe that is new, its very possible to convert it to something useful given the high resale for any low hour used frame, much less a new build. Even 767's are worth a fair bit.

767F's are the cats meow in their class even after the A330F if you have lower density cargo. Its a good bit more efficient as long as you cargo is 8 lbs per cubic foot or less even high density cargo the 767 is a champ with its higher % of MTOW as payload.
 
aeroweanie
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RE: Boeing Has A Usaf KC-767 Stored?

Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:32 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4):
It would be silly to scrap a mostly complete airframe that is new, its very possible to convert it to something useful given the high resale for any low hour used frame, much less a new build. Even 767's are worth a fair bit.

For starters, it was built with a -400ER flight deck, which is not civil certified on the -200. A one-off certification would be very expensive and ripping it all out and putting in a -200 flight deck would also be very expensive. While it might seem simple to find a use for the airframe, the reality is far different.

-200 and -400:

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Photo © Josh Akbar



Boeing was faced with a similar problem regarding 747 line number 400. It was on order for the Imperial Iran Air Force when the Iranian Revolution happened. The airframe was stored at Everett for four years. There were too many IIAF specific systems in the aircraft to allow it to easily be sold commercially. Finally, Boeing swung a deal with Northwest Airlines and the aircraft was rebuilt as N630US, a freighter. I have been told by a friend who has crewed on it that internally it is non-standard.

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Photo © Brendan Vanderwerf


[Edited 2007-04-23 02:36:49]
 
flynavy
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RE: Boeing Has A Usaf KC-767 Stored?

Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:39 pm

Actually, a -400 style flight deck has been retrofitted into the 767-200's that ABX aquired from Delta.


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Devilfish
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RE: Boeing Has A Usaf KC-767 Stored?

Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:36 pm

Quoting Aeroweanie (Reply 3):
For one thing, KC-767 specific structural mods will be performed on the Everett line and the -200EZ lacks them, as they were planning on doing the mods in Wichita,

Isn't it that a development frame doesn't have to be the exact same specifications as the final product. Couldn't they do the structural mods and fly it as a systems testbed on a test registration?

Quoting Aeroweanie (Reply 5):

For starters, it was built with a -400ER flight deck, which is not civil certified on the -200. A one-off certification would be very expensive

Would those still apply if the frame is to be converted to a private business jet? The certification costs could be offset a bit if the frame is bought at a substantial discount.

Quoting Aeroweanie (Reply 3):
A similar question hangs over the 767-400ER airframe ordered by the USAF for the E-10A program. Now that the E-10A is cancelled and the airframe is in production, it too might be scrapped or flown directly to AMARC upon completion.

It is conceivable that it could be part of the technology demonstrator which received the $256M funding last December.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/.../e10a-shes-dead-jim/index.php#more

Quote:
"Back in December 2006, Northrop Grumman received a $256 million contract covering design and analysis of the E-10A Technology Development Program (TDP) through Initial Design Review."


Thread here.....
E-10A (767-400) To Be Delivered At End Of '07 (by NYC777 Feb 2 2007 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)
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Devilfish
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RE: Boeing Has A Usaf KC-767 Stored?

Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:14 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Thread starter):
Apparently Boeing has a KC-767 already built for the USAF. It is stored at PAE without engines.

A photo turns-up.....

http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/aerospace/index.asp

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4):
its very possible to convert it to something useful given the high resale for any low hour used frame, much less a new build

For now, it will be used as a stand-in in the rehearsal for the 787 rollout.  Smile
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
cancidas
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RE: Boeing Has A Usaf KC-767 Stored?

Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:08 am

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 6):
Actually, a -400 style flight deck has been retrofitted into the 767-200's that ABX aquired from Delta.

was that conversion done by ABX or DAL?
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
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solnabo
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RE: Boeing Has A Usaf KC-767 Stored?

Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:48 am

A 767 Tanker as dress rehearsal for 787...

With Trent 1000 engines I guess?

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kc135topboom
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RE: Boeing Has A Usaf KC-767 Stored?

Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:23 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 10):
A 767 Tanker as dress rehearsal for 787...

With Trent 1000 engines I guess?

Isn't it (the KC-767, or B-767-200C) a lot shorter than a B-787-800?
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Boeing Has A Usaf KC-767 Stored?

Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:34 pm

dress rehearsals are more about not running the director of engineering over with the plane or other "social" concerns than with working out the physical details. 767 seems like a good choice given that I doubt there is any 777 laying around to play with, and a 737 would just not be remotely correct for scale. One hopes they got some interns with tapemeasures out to check that the 787 fits through the doors and the like... years ago.
 
YANQUI67
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RE: Boeing Has A Usaf KC-767 Stored?

Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:37 pm

Quoting Cancidas (Reply 9):
was that conversion done by ABX or DAL?

Those conversions were done in Israel by Israel Aerospace Industries. They do a great job on those ex DAL 767-200s.
 
cancidas
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RE: Boeing Has A Usaf KC-767 Stored?

Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:02 am

Quoting Yanqui67 (Reply 13):
Those conversions were done in Israel by Israel Aerospace Industries. They do a great job on those ex DAL 767-200s.

i actually meant who desired the conversion done. by what you said i take to mean that the conversion was done after ABX aquired the airplane.
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Boeing Has A Usaf KC-767 Stored?

Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:37 pm

Quoting Cancidas (Reply 14):
i actually meant who desired the conversion done. by what you said i take to mean that the conversion was done after ABX aquired the airplane.

I believe that conversion (converting the B-767-200 avionics to the B-767-400 standard) was done by DL as part of the purchase contract. The question is, did this modification require an FAA Flight check and certification? I believe DL provides B-767-400 training to the ABX crews in thei B-767-400 simulator, too.

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