747400sp
Topic Author
Posts: 3889
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 7:27 pm

Why The USN Do Not Have Block C Engines Rhinos?

Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:09 am

I realize the Tomcats are gone, and the Rhinos are going to be around for a long time. But I recently saw a perposal for a block C vertion of the F-414, that is able to produce 29000 lb of thrust. With these engines the Rhino counld be the first F/A-18 model to reach mach 2, also it give us on the flight deck, something to talk about. I may be able to see why the USN replaced the Tomcat with Rhino ( eventhough it is hard, (and I mean hard! ) as can be). I may be able to see why the USN did not order a all new super fighter, but not re-engining the Rhino with the most powerful engines that can go on it. I can not see that!



PS: Maybe I just a power nut! Big grin
 
Venus6971
Posts: 1415
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:55 pm

RE: Why The USN Do Not Have Block C Engines Rhinos?

Thu Apr 26, 2007 4:07 am

Hate to break it to you, but you put the uprated 414's in it you still have to add extra drop tanks for a mach 2 dash, but to add something you also lose something, Bigger engine more fuel, more fuel more drop tanks, more drop tanks more drag, more drag more fuel fuel consumptition . The Rhino internal load of fuel is small, more than the hornet but not that much.
Face it dude you guys have a bomb/misslie truck, if they would have designed it with the thought of GE 110's or PW 229's it would have probably been the size of a F-14 with plenty of internal fuel to make a mach 2 run feasible. F-18E/F is a good airplane , jack of all trades master of none. But the brass have made it a ploding workhorse by putting something on every hard point making it bigger and slower than the C/D. Wait for the F-35 with the F119.
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
FlyUSCG
Posts: 520
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:29 pm

RE: Why The USN Do Not Have Block C Engines Rhinos?

Thu Apr 26, 2007 4:12 am

Perhaps you have the Tim Taylor mentality and are ignoring practicality?  Silly There are many things to be considered and it may just not be worth the effort. But you said it's also a proposal, so that could mean a lot of different things too.
Go Trojans! Fight On!
 
747400sp
Topic Author
Posts: 3889
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 7:27 pm

RE: Why The USN Do Not Have Block C Engines Rhinos?

Thu Apr 26, 2007 4:31 am

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 1):
Wait for the F-35 with the F119

That is to long away.

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 1):
F-18E/F is a good airplane , jack of all trades master of none.

And just a down right borning aircraft. Look I am in the USN and it is sad to have a plane that I can not brag about working with.
 
User avatar
ptrjong
Posts: 4121
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 9:38 am

RE: Why The USN Do Not Have Block C Engines Rhinos?

Thu Apr 26, 2007 4:38 am

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
Rhino


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © John Bartels


I know that this is being missed, and I oviously missed something here, but since when does everybody call the F-18 the Rhino?
I have nothing against the F-18 personally, but this seems inappropriate. Rhino is dead.

Peter Smile
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
747400sp
Topic Author
Posts: 3889
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 7:27 pm

RE: Why The USN Do Not Have Block C Engines Rhinos?

Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:06 am

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 4):
I know that this is being missed, and I oviously missed something here, but since when does everybody call the F-18 the Rhino?

The  vomit  Super Hornet nick name is Rhino.
 
User avatar
ptrjong
Posts: 4121
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 9:38 am

RE: Why The USN Do Not Have Block C Engines Rhinos?

Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:30 am

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 5):
The Super Hornet nick name is Rhino.

Ah, thanks. Oh well - nicknames happen.

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 3):
And just a down right borning aircraft. Look I am in the USN and it is sad to have a plane that I can not brag about working with.

Maybe if you fork out a few billion, they'll uprate the engines for you Wink
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
747400sp
Topic Author
Posts: 3889
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 7:27 pm

RE: Why The USN Do Not Have Block C Engines Rhinos?

Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:44 am

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 6):
Maybe if you fork out a few billion, they'll uprate the engines for you

Ok you may have a point, but it is sad that USN top jet, is so under powered. A F-22A at military power (non-afterburing) produce as much power as a  vomit  Super Hornet at combat power ( full afterburner).
 
flynavy
Posts: 2177
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: Why The USN Do Not Have Block C Engines Rhinos?

Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:11 am

It's more meant to tell the difference between aircraft for flight deck personnel. When a Hornet's on approach, the air boss refers to it as a "Hornet" but when a Super Hornet's on approach (both E's and F's) it's referred to as a "Rhino." Otherwise, especially at night, they'd be hard to tell apart to the ground pounders on deck. Obviously, the guys down in CATCC would be able to tell regardless.

"Our first aircraft is a RHINO now at 4 miles, 102 on Alpha, 102 on Alpha now at 4 miles."
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
ebj1248650
Posts: 1517
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:17 am

RE: Why The USN Do Not Have Block C Engines Rhinos?

Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:39 am

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
I realize the Tomcats are gone, and the Rhinos are going to be around for a long time. But I recently saw a perposal for a block C vertion of the F-414, that is able to produce 29000 lb of thrust. With these engines the Rhino counld be the first F/A-18 model to reach mach 2, also it give us on the flight deck, something to talk about. I may be able to see why the USN replaced the Tomcat with Rhino ( eventhough it is hard, (and I mean hard! ) as can be). I may be able to see why the USN did not order a all new super fighter, but not re-engining the Rhino with the most powerful engines that can go on it. I can not see that!

Current engines produce 22,000 lbs of thrust in afterburner. 44,000 lbs of thrust total. The additional 7,000 lbs of thrust per engine would indeed give the airplane a significant boost in performance, but bear in mind the Navy isn't looking for an air superiority fighter. They want Super Hornet to be a multi-role fighter. It would appear the Navy is quite satisfied with Super Hornet's current air-to-air capability. Will it need enhanced performance in the future? I guess that remains to be seen.
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
Oroka
Posts: 1079
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:37 am

RE: Why The USN Do Not Have Block C Engines Rhinos?

Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:04 am

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 9):
Will it need enhanced performance in the future? I guess that remains to be seen.

Who knows, but the option is there if it is needed.

The Tomcat was moving closer and closer to being turned into a bombtruck, and needed less and less for air defence. The Tomcat was a great aircraft, but its role is being taken over by other technologys. Same with the battleship, nothing out there is more powerful, but its role is no longer needed. If there is a threat that the F/A-18E/F or F-35 cant handle, the F-22 is just a call away.

If there was a major conflict, say vs China, I would expect a loss of 1 or 2 battle groups, then they will get thier asses handed to them. Kinda a 'better make your first hit a good one, cause you wont get another' kind of thing.
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11022
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Why The USN Do Not Have Block C Engines Rhinos?

Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:50 pm

Quoting Oroka (Reply 10):
The Tomcat was moving closer and closer to being turned into a bombtruck, and needed less and less for air defence. The Tomcat was a great aircraft, but its role is being taken over by other technologys. Same with the battleship, nothing out there is more powerful, but its role is no longer needed. If there is a threat that the F/A-18E/F or F-35 cant handle, the F-22 is just a call away.

If there was a major conflict, say vs China, I would expect a loss of 1 or 2 battle groups, then they will get thier asses handed to them. Kinda a 'better make your first hit a good one, cause you wont get another' kind of thing.

Maybe that is why the USN has an F-15N study now?
 
zanl188
Posts: 3454
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:05 pm

RE: Why The USN Do Not Have Block C Engines Rhinos?

Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:48 am

Quoting Oroka (Reply 10):
If there was a major conflict, say vs China, I would expect a loss of 1 or 2 battle groups, then they will get thier asses handed to them. Kinda a 'better make your first hit a good one, cause you wont get another' kind of thing.

Pearl Harbor 2.0 Sad
Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
 
SCAT15F
Posts: 477
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:34 am

RE: Why The USN Do Not Have Block C Engines Rhinos?

Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:12 am

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 9):
It would appear the Navy is quite satisfied with Super Hornet's current air-to-air capability.

It certainly does appear that way, probably because the guys in charge of the program are former A-6 and A-7 pilots, and compared to those aircraft the Rhino does have good air to air capability  rotfl 
 
MissedApproach
Posts: 678
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:12 am

RE: Why The USN Do Not Have Block C Engines Rhinos?

Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:13 am

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 9):
Will it need enhanced performance in the future?

If anything I expect they would want to improve range/combat radius rather than speed. The -E's got longer legs than the Hornet, but it's no A-6. In the most recent conflicts tanker availability has been at a premium.
Can you hear me now?
 
LMP737
Posts: 4923
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: Why The USN Do Not Have Block C Engines Rhinos?

Fri May 18, 2007 8:43 am

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
But I recently saw a perposal for a block C vertion of the F-414, that is able to produce 29000 lb of thrust. With these engines the Rhino counld be the first F/A-18 model to reach mach 2, also it give us on the flight deck, something to talk about.

Do you have more info on this? So far all I have been able to find is this GE press release from 2002.

< http://www.geae.com/aboutgeae/pressc...r/military/military_20020722i.html >

The question is if this engine ever does make it to the fleet what's the cost going to be and what sort of structural changes will occur. When I was still in the Navy the EPE version of the F404 hit the fleet. All that was required was a software change. However that's becasue the the increase in thrust was only about 1500lbs. When the F110 was put in the F-14 Grumman had to beef up the airframe becasue the airframe had to handle an additional 16000lbs of thrust. My guess is that the same would ahve to happen with the Super Hornet.

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 1):
Hate to break it to you, but you put the uprated 414's in it you still have to add extra drop tanks for a mach 2 dash, but to add something you also lose something, Bigger engine more fuel, more fuel more drop tanks, more drop tanks more drag, more drag more fuel fuel consumptition . The Rhino internal load of fuel is small, more than the hornet but not that much.

Yes and no. Using the TF-30 and F110 as an example while the F110 had a higher fuel consumption at mil it had a lower fuel consumption at full burner. With the F110 the F-14 only needed mil in the cats where the A version needed full burner. The B/D was also able to the same thing as the A at a lower throttle setting. This all translated in an increase in range and on sation time. With the Super Hornet/F414 we would probaably see the same thing. From what I have read the E/F could use a boost in the thrust to wieght ratio department.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
Maybe that is why the USN has an F-15N study now?

The only study is here on the A.net forums.  Wink
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2398
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: Why The USN Do Not Have Block C Engines Rhinos?

Fri May 18, 2007 12:14 pm

I read a few years ago when they were first talking about these upgraded engines was that the tech being applied to obtain the gains were more so designed to improve the reliability and maintainability of the engines and that the power increases were simply byproducts of those moves. GE said that in time the initial costs would be paid for and offset by the maintenance savings.

No doubt, a Block II F/A-18F with these upgraded F-414's would be sweet!
 
DeltaGuy
Posts: 3965
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 5:25 am

RE: Why The USN Do Not Have Block C Engines Rhinos?

Fri May 18, 2007 11:00 pm

Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 13):
are former A-6 and A-7 pilots

The light attack mafia still runs the joint  Wink

It's a classic case of jack of all trades, master of none. The airwing composed of the F-14, A-6, and A-7 covered the load pretty well, in the aspects of a striking platform. Then again, the threat from Soviet Bears flocking on the battlegroup has diminished so the F-14's extreme BVR role seemed to melt away. The A-6 and A-7's tremendous punch could still be used though...that capability is sorely missed.

I wish the A-6F went through....it'd be a JDAM truck.

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos