Lumberton
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Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Tue May 01, 2007 10:44 pm

This is from Kieran Daly's blog on Flight.
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...nd-you-thought-the-airbus-a38.html

Quote:
And you thought the Airbus A380 wiring was bad...

A comforting story for the poor guys at Airbus in Hamburg who found the A380 wiring coming up a metre or so short. Things could be much worse - as the Indian Navy has reportedly just been told by the folks refitting the Russian aircraft carrier Gorshokov for sale to them.
Seems the engineers underestimated the quantity of wiring required by about, oh, 70% or so. Result - a two year delay and 10% cost hike. India, unsurprisingly, is "sending a senior officer to Moscow to assess the situation".

Here's the link to the article:
http://www.india-defence.com/reports/3084
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
BarfBag
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Wed May 02, 2007 1:46 am

The Indian Navy already issued a press release rubbishing the original unsubstantiated report.
 
dl021
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Wed May 02, 2007 12:32 pm

Yeah...but there's some smoke here....what's the real story?

I don't believe the initial rubbishing any more completely than I believe the massive error reported in the initial trashing.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
BarfBag
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Wed May 02, 2007 2:27 pm

Oh, the delivery of the carrier has slipped a few months, as the Navy release itself acknowledged in its rebuttal. They claim late 2008 instead of mid 2008 for delivery now. But the notion of wiring gone so drastically wrong is just bizarre. Its not like the Russians don't know how to fix a ship, or that the Indian Navy doesn't know enough about carriers to direct specific refits; we've been operating them continuously for 46 years, since we acquired the INS Vikrant in 1961.
 
Lumberton
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:46 am

Back in the news! This article in today's Flight Global says 2011.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...y-grounds-indian-mig-fighters.html

Quote:
India is unlikely to take delivery of the refitted Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov until 2011, three years after the due delivery date.
Russian shipbuilder Sevmash admitted on 1 August, that India was unlikely to take delivery of the refitted aircraft carrier, adding that director general Vladimir Pastukhov has been fired over the handling of the refit contract.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:54 am

Another Three years when Everyone was thinking 2008.
regds
MEL
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Lumberton
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:43 am

Defense Industry Daily has provided an update. Note the use of "commitment trap".
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...t-delay-cost-increases-03283/#more

Quote:
Nov 6/07: A top-level Indian Navy delegation is heading for Moscow to discuss the delay and price escalation in the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier deal. A detailed financial and technical plan outlining the specific justifications and amounts will be presented to the Indian side, who is there to listen rather than to negotiate.

The report pegs the original price quoted for refurbishing the carrier was just under $980 million, adding that the Russians are insisting on cost increases of at least $350 million. Indian officials reportedly fear that the final escalation may end up being much more once they are deep enough into the commitment trap of having paid for work. The report also adds that the Navy "had reconciled itself to the fact that the delivery of the ship would be delayed from the original deadline of August 2008 by a few years," a surprising development given the limited service life of India's remaining carrier. If the government is indeed prioritizing cost containment over delivery dates, reconciliation of the INS Viraat's service life with Gorshkov's entry may prove difficult. IDRW.

So the Indian side is going to Moscow to "listen, rather than negotiate"? I suspect they will not like what they hear.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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Revelation
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:18 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 6):
Note the use of "commitment trap".

Kind of reminds one of the ex-USSR work on the International Space Station.
Inspiration, move me brightly!
 
michlis
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:52 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
Kind of reminds one of the ex-USSR work on the International Space Station.

Agreed. 'Show me the money...so I can spend it on other things except what it was intended for.'
If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the outcome of a hundred battles.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:18 am

Des the Indian Navy have another Option on hand or only the Russian one.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:47 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
Kind of reminds one of the ex-USSR work on the International Space Station.

just mind that the Russians actually saved the whole ISS when the shuttle got grounded. Also the US MADE them ditch the MIR spacestation.
 
Lumberton
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:12 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 9):
Des the Indian Navy have another Option on hand or only the Russian one.
regds

They could start from scratch and order on elsewhere, or try to build it themselves. However, they most likely would say good bye to all the money paid to date. I don't see the Indian Navy with many good options here.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:16 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 11):
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 9):
Des the Indian Navy have another Option on hand or only the Russian one.
regds

They could start from scratch and order on elsewhere, or try to build it themselves. However, they most likely would say good bye to all the money paid to date. I don't see the Indian Navy with many good options here.

What about taking the ship as it is and finishing it in an Indian ship yard? After all India has good engineers as well.

Jan
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Lumberton
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:31 pm

Does India actually hold title (i.e., own) to the ship at this point? If not, the Russians would most likely demand they pay through the nose. If that were the case, they might want to order one of the new Brit/French CVs.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
Devilfish
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Sat Nov 10, 2007 2:18 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 13):
If that were the case, they might want to order one of the new Brit/French CVs.

Swallow the bitter pill you warned of?.....

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 11):
However, they most likely would say good bye to all the money paid to date.

That might spell the end of a lot of political and military carreers, not to mention those quietly working on the sidelines.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
michlis
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:43 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 12):
What about taking the ship as it is and finishing it in an Indian ship yard?

Or perhaps drive it onto the beaches of Alang.  stirthepot 
If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the outcome of a hundred battles.
 
Lumberton
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:42 pm

Update. If this is what the Indian Navy is saying in public, they must be extraordinarily unhappy behind the scenes. I thought there was a "special relationship" between the Indian armed forces and the Russians?
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=3224309&C=asiapac

Quote:
he strain in Indo-Russian defense ties is showing, and the delay in Russia’s delivery of the aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov could make India “ponder where our defense relations are going” with Moscow, the Indian Navy chief, Adm. Sureesh Mehta, said Dec. 3 during an annual Navy Day news conference here.
In a standoff that began early this year, Moscow is demanding price escalations on several deals with India, some still under negotiation and some agreed upon years ago.
Russia had sought a $650 million increase for the refit of the Admiral Gorshkov, a retired Russian Navy carrier, Indian Defence Ministry sources said.
“We have paid more than $400 million for the carrier and we own it now,” Mehta said. “The government should not get into price renegotiations. We expect that the fixed-price contract [under which the deal was negotiated] should be honored by the Russian government.”

"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:21 pm



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 16):
a "special relationship" between the Indian armed forces and the Russians

Is this related to the Growing proximity of India to the US.If so sounds childish.
regds
MEL
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Lumberton
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:15 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 17):
Is this related to the Growing proximity of India to the US.If so sounds childish.

Huh? It's a simple fact that the Indian Navy has sourced a great deal of their equipment from Russia. Nothing more, nothing less.  Yeah sure
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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Tugger
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:38 am

Two things have happened here:
1. The price of copper has skyrocketed over the last few years so what was budgeted for wiring for the refit is now substantially deficient. Over the last 6 years the price of copper has gone from 60 cents a pound in 2001 to about $3.50 today.

2. Theft. A lot of it. Since the price has gone up copper thefts have increased and though I don't how much has been stolen in this instance it has been a major issue for many construction projects. So a lot of what was ordered or on hand, if it wasn't properly supervised, has found its way into to other hands.

Tug
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Lumberton
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:59 pm

Interesting comments on the carrier deal with Russia.
http://www.upi.com/International_Sec...alysis_indias_defense_sector/6269/

Quote:
By KRISHNADEV CALAMUR
UPI International Security Editor
Indian minister chides navy chief over Russia remarks

India's defense minister has chided the navy chief over suggestions that the country should take another look at its defense ties with Russia.

"The relationship with Russia is a time-tested one," Defense Minister A.K. Antony said. "Problems will be overcome."

The comments, which were reported by the private IBS news channel, came following comments by navy chief Adm. Sureesh Mehta.

In comments last week, Mehta said Russia should honor the contract it signed for the aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov. Russia is seeking more money from India to refurbish the vessel.

"It is a fixed price contract and they should honor it," Mehta said.

He also ruled out withdrawing from the deal, despite some suggestions to do just that, because India has already paid $500 million for the vessel. But it is his remarks on defense ties with Moscow that got the most scrutiny.

"Where is our relationship with Russia going?" he said, noting the deal was signed when Russia needed it the most.

"They said give us work. I would like to believe we helped them in their time of need."

"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:22 am



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 18):
Huh? It's a simple fact that the Indian Navy has sourced a great deal of their equipment from Russia. Nothing more, nothing less.

The recent events Smell of a Growing Annoyance by the Russians towards the India US proximity.
regds
MEL
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Tue Dec 25, 2007 12:01 pm

What about India buying the USS Kitty Hawk? This conventionally powered aircraft carrier is going to be decomissioned soon.

Jan
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Lumberton
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Tue Dec 25, 2007 1:00 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 22):
What about India buying the USS Kitty Hawk? This conventionally powered aircraft carrier is going to be decomissioned soon.

Then that would be a first. No U.S. carrier of post-WWII construction has been sold to another country. I can safely say this also: the U.S. Navy extracts every ounce of service out of these ships, so if one were sold, it would require at least as extensive (and expensive) a refit as the Russian ship,maybe more.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:10 pm



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 23):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 22):
What about India buying the USS Kitty Hawk? This conventionally powered aircraft carrier is going to be decomissioned soon.

Then that would be a first. No U.S. carrier of post-WWII construction has been sold to another country. I can safely say this also: the U.S. Navy extracts every ounce of service out of these ships, so if one were sold, it would require at least as extensive (and expensive) a refit as the Russian ship,maybe more.

But I doubt that the US would push the price up, like the Russians do. And, with the current proximity between India and the US, it might be politically wise, like having another friend there, especially with the Chinese opening deep water ports (superficially for commercial shipping, but can be used for military purposes) in Sri Lanka and Pakistan.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
halls120
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:43 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 24):
But I doubt that the US would push the price up, like the Russians do. And, with the current proximity between India and the US, it might be politically wise, like having another friend there, especially with the Chinese opening deep water ports (superficially for commercial shipping, but can be used for military purposes) in Sri Lanka and Pakistan.

Lumberton is correct - India is better off with a Russian hull than an old tired US aircraft carrier. By was of comparison, the USS Independence (decommissioned in 1998) is in such poor condition that the Navy is going to sink it as a target.

No one can make a legitimate claim that the US Navy doesn't get its money's worth out of its capital ships.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Tue Dec 25, 2007 5:30 pm



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 10):
just mind that the Russians actually saved the whole ISS when the shuttle got grounded. Also the US MADE them ditch the MIR spacestation.

Saved it from what? Burning up in the atmosphere? I don't think so.

It would have been no major trouble to leave the station in a dormant state for a period of time. It's nice that we didn't have to, but Russia did no more than continue to fly Soyuz and Progress (partially American funded at that), which they were obligated to do prior to the loss of Columbia anyway.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Wed Dec 26, 2007 4:55 am

any purchase would require Retrfit & upgrades to the latest standards which will cost $$$.
regds
MEL
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Lumberton
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:02 pm

Update from Defense Industry Daily and some speculation that the Russians may (repeat "may", nothing confirmed) link the ship's completion to other defense purchases.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...p=newsletter&src=did&type=textlink

Quote:
Feb 7/08: Zeenews quotes an unnamed “Russian official” with interesting and somewhat unsettling arguments, in advance of a high-level delegation’s arrival led by Indian Defence Secretary Vijay Singh:

“Moscow feels that the agreement for supply of the 45,000 tonne warship was signed at a time when the Russian ship-building company was in bad shape and India “used” the situation to sign the contract at lower price. The ship-building company was facing closure and was ready to sign any kind of contract when the contract was signed.”

Defense Industry Daily needs to look up the exact definitions to be certain, but we believe this process is known as “shrewd negotiation,” followed by “a deal.” Indian Naval Chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta appears to be using the same lexicon, and has publicly said that there should be no revision to the Goshkov contract. Still, India cannot receive the carrier she wants if the shipyard goes bankrupt, and Russia is holding the carrier. This gives the Russians considerable leverage in negotiations, unless India can find an alternate provider. There may be a way out, however:

“But Russia is willing to “compensate” for the cost of Gorshkov if it gets more military orders, which Moscow insists is not linked to 126 fighter planes that India is planning to buy but other defence purchases.”

"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
A342
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:51 pm



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 26):
Saved it from what? Burning up in the atmosphere? I don't think so.

Yes, they did exactly that. The ISS needs regular fuel supplies in order to stay in its orbit.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
astuteman
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:52 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 2):
Yeah...but there's some smoke here....what's the real story?

I don't believe the initial rubbishing any more completely than I believe the massive error reported in the initial trashing.

Pushed to hazard a guess, I'd say that the condition of the original wiring was found to be far worse than was originally envisaged, resulting in a dramatic increase in the amounts required.

(either that, or someone missed the LFH clause the Indians built into the contract  Wink )

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 13):
If that were the case, they might want to order one of the new Brit/French CVs.

 checkmark 
They used to take ours off us, in the days when we had them.....  Smile

Shame Barrow stopped building fixed-wing carriers, isn't it?

Regards
 
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zeke
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:15 pm

What aircraft would India operate off this carrier ?
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A342
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:58 pm



Quoting Zeke (Reply 31):
What aircraft would India operate off this carrier ?

Brand-new MiG-29Ks/KUBs, the first of which, IIRC, have already started flight testing. Further in the future, maybe a naval variant of its indigenous, problem-plagued HAL Tejas fighter.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
desertjets
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:02 pm



Quoting Zeke (Reply 31):
What aircraft would India operate off this carrier ?

The INS Vikramaditya will most likely operate a mix of Mig-29Ks and Sea Harriers.


Honestly as the delays continue why not just bail out on the refit program and proceed with a second Vikrant class at this point. I just see no reason to continue with the refit on a now 30+ year old hull when it looks like it will enter service near around the same time as the new build ship. Granted the Viraat isn't getting any younger, but its replacement is well behind schedule.

The only other option I see would be to somehow get in on the CVF program. Though I don't see how they could get one before 2020 at this point as the design would need to be altered to meet the needs of the Indian Navy. The major issue is that the QE is a considerably larger ship than either the Vikramaditya or the Vikrant.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
Lumberton
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:16 pm

Some more news. The costs has gone up. (surprise!)

Will Russia cancel aircraft carrier deal with India?

Quote:
Russia is significantly toughening conditions for the sales of the vessel, which originally was to be handed over the Indian Navy in 2008. A contract on the sales of the Admiral Gorskov was signed in 2004. However, the Russian shipyard has been unable to complete the vessel in line with contract time period and contract price.

Now, the Russians demand more time and 2 billion USD extra money for the job. The new contract conditions spark speculations that Russia might actually try to keep the vessel in its own fleet.

According to Russian defence plans, the country will need to build several aircraft carriers over the next ten years. The sales of the Admiral Gorshkov to India come highly inconvenient for the current Russian defence establishment.

The Russians "might actually try to keep the vessel in [its] own fleet"? Hollow threat or real?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
nomadd22
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Thu Nov 20, 2008 1:32 pm

There's a reason old ships almost inevitably turn into nightmares when someone tries to restore them. The degree of wiring and plumbing and all other sytems work isn't apparent until you start ripping things out, and the initial estimates are almost always extremely low because they're made by someone trying to sell the deal.
By the time you bring a poorly maintained older vessel back to spec you've almost stripped it down to the hull and replaced most of the systems. Usually a much harder procedure than installing them in a new build. The result tends to turn out costing more than building a new vessel, and you still have an old boat.
If India signed a contract with someone who feels free to tack on 50% or stop working while keeping the money, they just got a valueable lesson in dealing with countries who don't consider themselves bound by the legal system. Maybe Russia needs to figure out how much business screwing over India will cost them in the future.
Anon
 
PP705
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:39 pm

I think its time we called off this deal and looked around for another carrier. The Russians are no longer dependable as a supplier. They have increased the price after the contract was signed and using their position as the main supplier of arms to the Indian armed forces to make India agree to their demands.
BOM...call it a dump.....but it's changing.....
 
trex8
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:56 am



Quoting PP705 (Reply 36):
They have increased the price after the contract was signed and using their position as the main supplier of arms to the Indian armed forces to make India agree to their demands.

and you think any of the other major arms suppliers on the world market don't do the same???
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:50 am

Ideally.What India currently is doing,is gradually moving away from one supplier nation & looking out for options.
regds
MEL
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osiris30
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:57 am

I failed to see why India doesn't just build their own carrier.

Any nation which can do lunar shots should be more than capable of building their own aircraft carriers.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
nomadd22
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:45 pm



Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 39):
I failed to see why India doesn't just build their own carrier.

Any nation which can do lunar shots should be more than capable of building their own aircraft carriers.

Building a 1,000 foot long floating airport is a little different scale than sticking a turbo pump and a nozzle on the bottom of a fuel tank.
Anon
 
osiris30
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:03 pm



Quoting Nomadd22 (Reply 40):
Building a 1,000 foot long floating airport is a little different scale than sticking a turbo pump and a nozzle on the bottom of a fuel tank.

Sure, not disputing that, but it is sounding like all that India is *really* getting from Russia in their deal is a hull since everything else is being replaced anyway. Sure India can build a hull and stuff it full of things just as well. I still think they would have been better off building their own. I'm sure there would be some learning curve, but sooner or later you take that learning curve on or you are forever beholden to another (in this case Russia).
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
nomadd22
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:31 pm

India's technical skills are certainly second to none. I wouldn't be surprised to see them become the next Hundai if they decided to get into the humongous ship building business.
I imagine some of them are regretting not putting the money they gave the Russians into a shipyard. They probably could have built the faciliites and most of the first carrier for the money Russia is trying to extort from them.
Hopefully they didn't front too much money for the Migs. The threat of losing those sales might put a little pressure on Russia to honor their contracts. Maybe the US should send them an F-18 brochure.
Anon
 
desertjets
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:09 pm



Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 39):
I failed to see why India doesn't just build their own carrier.

Well the INS Vikrant is already under construction. Which would be the first home built aircraft carrier. If the Russians can't finish the current ship there has to be a point when the Indians need to say screw it and stick with their own design. I think the original hope was to use the former Gorshkov as a stop gap/build up ship to replace the aging Viraat and train up on more conventional carrier ops. Though at this point both the Vikramaditya and Vikrant may enter service around the same time.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
osiris30
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:48 am



Quoting Nomadd22 (Reply 42):
I imagine some of them are regretting not putting the money they gave the Russians into a shipyard.

That's kind of where my thought process is at, at the moment.

Quoting Nomadd22 (Reply 42):
They probably could have built the faciliites and most of the first carrier for the money Russia is trying to extort from them.

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Quoting DesertJets (Reply 43):
Though at this point both the Vikramaditya and Vikrant may enter service around the same time.

Wouldn't surprise me at all, and if the funds had been redirected one can only imagine the Vikrant would be earlier yet.
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PP705
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:56 am

The delay has a lot to do with the present geo-political situations. The Russians are clearly not happy with the the increasing closeness between the US and India. In fact the Russian have been pressurizing the Tajik to cancel the lease for the Farkhor airforce base.
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Lumberton
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:18 pm

This is turning into a horror show for the IN. Price is now expected to be USD$2.9 billion--with a "b". Sounds like the Russians are doing a shake down here.

Indian Navy Stunned By Latest Russian Demand For Gorschkov

Quote:
The Indian Navy has been stunned by a Russian demand for an additional $700 million payment for the completion of the reconstruction of the aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov. This brings the total demanded by the Russians to $2.9 billion, more than three times the originally-contracted price and a truly outrageous sum by any international standards.

In addition to this latest demand, the Russians have confirmed that the ship will not be completed until 2012, four years later than originally planned.

These latest demands come as a savage blow to the Indian delegation that was planning to negotiate over the original Russian demand for an additional $1.2 billion.

India is left with few options here. I have read where they are building a 40000 ton carrier, but it won't be ready for many years. They could order one from the French, but that would take...many years. They could just tell the Russians to kiss off and forego the whole carrier thing.

Or...they could work a deal with the USG for a Nimitz class carrier from the USN's inventory? I would have never suggested this a couple of years ago, but we are in very, very interesting times right now.

[Edited 2009-02-23 14:19:57]
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
osiris30
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:29 pm



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 46):
This is turning into a horror show for the IN. Price is now expected to be USD$2.9 billion--with a "b". Sounds like the Russians are doing a shake down here.

Man between this and the A400M, US Military contractors are beginning to look down right cheap by comparison!! (You know, the same military contractors of $1,000 hammer fame)
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Devilfish
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:58 am



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 46):
They could order one from the French, but that would take...many years.

With the US$ and economy where they are now, maybe they could even order a brand-new, competitively priced carrier from US shipbuilders!

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 46):

Or...they could work a deal with the USG for a Nimitz class carrier from the USN's inventory? I would have never suggested this a couple of years ago, but we are in very, very interesting times right now.

Any ballpark figure available on how much it would cost to refurbish one?
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JoeCanuck
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RE: Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!

Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:30 am

India should just pull the pin. They are completely screwed in this deal. The final price will be significantly more than 2.9 billion. Screw the carrier, forget the migs, take your lumps and go shopping elsewhere.

There is nothing Russia makes that India can't do or buy better elsewhere...and probably for less.

Sadly, military procurement shakedowns are becoming more normal than not. Typhoon, C-17, A400...and the list goes on.

At least if the Indians go elsewhere, they might have a chance at negotiations. The Russians will keep pushing until the Indians are in way too deep to get out.

It's probably the only negotiating tool the Indians have left...threaten to drop all contracts with Russia...which would depend on how much India needs Russian oil and gas.
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