CF188A
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Your Favorite Military Fighter!

Thu May 03, 2007 4:18 am

Once in a blue moon this topic comes up. As the title says, what is your favorite Military Jet Fighter/Attack aircraft?

Mine is a three way tie. I have always found the Harrier to be one of the most amazing pieces of aviation technology. Perhaps because it was the first full scale production VTOL capability aircraft.

The F-16 , at any airshow, in any video, has always remained a thrill. That tiny aircraft with all that power, going over the top with a constant accelerating speed unlike the FA/18 Hornet which pushes itself through the vertical. The F-16 , being one of if not the cheapest and simplistic fighter aircraft ever designed.

The FA/18 Hornet, through the last 20+ years, is the runner up next to the F-16s success. The advanced derivative desired by larger countries such as Canada, the necessity of two powerplants, satisfactory payloads , and unbelievable maneuverability.

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WrenchBender
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RE: Your Favorite Military Fighter!

Thu May 03, 2007 8:45 am

Quoting CF188A (Thread starter):
As the title says, what is your favorite Military Jet Fighter/Attack aircraft?

That is not what the title asks....
But here are my prefernces
1. Sea Fury

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2. Mosquito (fighter variant)

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3. Firefly

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WrenchBender
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LY744
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RE: Your Favorite Military Fighter!

Thu May 03, 2007 9:00 am

Quoting CF188A (Thread starter):
The F-16 , being one of if not the cheapest and simplistic fighter aircraft ever designed.

You can't be serious...


LY744.
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Scooter01
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RE: Your Favorite Military Fighter!

Thu May 03, 2007 9:02 am

Need I say more?


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CF188A
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RE: Your Favorite Military Fighter!

Thu May 03, 2007 9:55 am

Quoting LY744 (Reply 2):
You can't be serious...

go research and talk first hand with pilots before you try and crucify me. Beyond the flyby wire system, it really is VERY simplistic. Thanks though !

[Edited 2007-05-03 02:57:57]
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bilgerat
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RE: Your Favorite Military Fighter!

Thu May 03, 2007 11:10 am

I'm not sure if the F-16 can be described as "cheap and simplistic". I think the original YF-16 was a very cheap and simple fighter, with absolutely first rate dogfighting abilities. However, the production models have become progressively heavier, more complex, and more expensive. Perhaps it's cheap and simple compared to its other Western contemporaries... For cheap and simple you will find no finer examples than the MiG-21 and F-5.

As for my favourites, there are three that really stand out IMO.....

Supermarine Spitfire - quite simply the most beautiful aeroplane ever built. The only Allied fighter that was in production for the entire war, continually updated to keep it competitive with the latest Luftwaffe types. By all acounts a delightful aircraft to fly and a deadly adversary throughout the war.

English Electric Lightning - there's something about a bare metal Lightning adorned in the bright squadron colours thundering down the runway and straight up into the sky. For sheer power and performance it was second to none.

Sukhoi Su-27 - big, powerful, and certainly looks the part. This is the fighter that gave NATO pilots nightmares.
 
LY744
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RE: Your Favorite Military Fighter!

Thu May 03, 2007 11:11 am

Quoting CF188A (Reply 4):
go research and talk first hand with pilots

Take it easy buddy, and don't say things you can't take back.

Now read this sentence:

"The XXX, being one of if not the cheapest and simplistic fighter aircraft ever designed."

If you poll a bunch of people, who have done their research, and talked first hand with pilots, engineers, ground crew etc., as to what 'XXX' should be, you will get a lot of different answers, depending on how old the person is, and what country they are from. 'F-16' will NOT even be on the list. Radar? Afterburner? FBW? HUD? MFDs? Blasphemy.

The F-16 is indeed a remarkable airplane, and is truly one of the more beautifully simple designs as far as 4th generation fighters go. However, your characteristic is better suited for such fighters as the A-4, the MiG-21, the F-5 etc. ...and that's just from the jet age.

Don't take it so hard, especially if you're planning on pursuing a career in military aviation, there's plenty of ego to go around in that business as it is.


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CF188A
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RE: Your Favorite Military Fighter!

Thu May 03, 2007 11:33 am

Quoting LY744 (Reply 6):
Take it easy buddy, and don't say things you can't take back.

would not think of it. But to not attempt to hijack my thread without giving a possible explanation to your egotistical (how it came off) claims.

Quoting LY744 (Reply 6):
If you poll a bunch of people, who have done their research,

A.NET does not really count

Quoting LY744 (Reply 6):
and talked first hand with pilots

3 years in a row now at the Joint Services Open House at Andrews AFB. My aunt asked the pilot , what is so special and so remarkable, what separates it from everything else, and my response is exactly what he said. Perhaps I should have placed "Modern" in front of my title. I also typed "one of " and in today's military aircraft world, aircraft ranging from 20 million to 2 billion, a 25 million dollar fighter jet it remarkable.

Quoting LY744 (Reply 6):
engineers, ground crew etc.,

done that. JSOH

Quoting LY744 (Reply 6):
'F-16' will NOT even be on the list. Radar? Afterburner? FBW? HUD? MFDs? Blasphemy.



Quoting LY744 (Reply 6):
A-4, the MiG-21, the F-5 etc. ...and that's just from the jet age.

I would not consider those in today's terms of modern fighter jet aircraft. You are absolutely right they are cheaper to produce. But the whole point here is that you did not need to say that I was wrong. The F-16 is still one of if not the cheapest modern, present day, fighter being built.

Quoting LY744 (Reply 6):
Don't take it so hard, especially if you're planning on pursuing a career in military aviation, there's plenty of ego to go around in that business as it is.

Does this include hijacking forums and telling people they are wrong with no claims:P . Do you want to pursue a career in military aviation?
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LY744
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RE: Your Favorite Military Fighter!

Thu May 03, 2007 11:51 am

Quoting CF188A (Reply 7):
would not think of it. But to not attempt to hijack my thread without giving a possible explanation to your egotistical (how it came off) claims.

Skipping the part where you call me an egoist ("Whoa whoa whoa. I'm just trying to get in, I'm not running for Jesus!"), I believe I clearly stated the reasons why I was surprised to see you say what you said.

Quoting CF188A (Reply 7):
Quoting LY744 (Reply 6):
If you poll a bunch of people, who have done their research,

A.NET does not really count

I most certainly didn't mean people on a.net.

Quoting CF188A (Reply 7):
But the whole point here is that you did not need to say that I was wrong.

Well you were, and I felt like it.

Quoting CF188A (Reply 7):
Does this include hijacking forums and telling people they are wrong with no claims:P

Let's keep things in perspective, I haven't hijacked anything.

Quoting CF188A (Reply 7):
Do you want to pursue a career in military aviation?

Hey maybe I'll argue my way into a flight training spot. But seriously, there's many things I want to do and I don't know which one(s) I will be lucky enough to pursue successfully. For now, being a bum is keeping me occupied, although as this thread evidently suggests, not occupied enough.  Wink


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RE: Your Favorite Military Fighter!

Thu May 03, 2007 1:31 pm

This is a little piece I'd like to call......

Beauty and The Beast.


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RE: Your Favorite Military Fighter!

Thu May 03, 2007 2:27 pm

Do I have to pick just one?

I rather put my top 3.

The F4U Corsair

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F-86 Sabre

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P-51 Mustang

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CF188A
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RE: Your Favorite Military Fighter!

Thu May 03, 2007 9:27 pm

Quoting LY744 (Reply 8):
Well you were, and I felt like it.

( let that ego shine ! .. shine ! shine! shine ! )

First things first. It is unbelievable that you dismissed my experience and interest on the topic, which is why my relative asked the pilot's directly. You totally dismissed that . So to be honest boy, you were wrong, and I really do not feel like making you out to be a child who talks like an adult. My words came from an F-16 pilot. I told you I should have added "modern fighter" in my original post. You ALSO dismissed the obvious point, how cheap it is to produce compared to fighters like the F-15, Eurofighter, F-22, ETC. Lets not forget your profile is similar to mine  Smile

Quoting LY744 (Reply 8):
Let's keep things in perspective, I haven't hijacked anything.

If I know I am not right, I would not at all type it, YET ALONE start a forum topic about it.

Quoting LY744 (Reply 8):
Hey maybe I'll argue my way into a flight training spot. But seriously, there's many things I want to do and I don't know which one(s) I will be lucky enough to pursue successfully. For now, being a bum is keeping me occupied, although as this thread evidently suggests, not occupied enough.

don't know what to say to that
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RE: Your Favorite Military Fighter!

Thu May 03, 2007 10:14 pm

F-14. Just because it's big and impressive yet sleek and beautiful. I love twin engined aircrafts in general but the sweep wings together with the characteristic design that makes the F-14 so unique results in a one of a kind aircraft that I can't resist to love. And no, it's not because of a certain movie (even though there's certainly some eye candy in it). Speaking of which... I prefer Fighter Fling if I feel the need for eye candy... Never the less, F-14 as my favorite is based solely on looks and attitude.


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Saab 37 Viggen has a special place in my heart. This is based on everything but the looks I guess (even though the Viggen truly is something special when it comes to looks and appearance). No, I'm from Sweden and I'm not only proud of Sweden's achievement but I have also had the opportunity to work with Viggen a little, seeing it from up close. As a matter of fact, I have a little role in the development of the only working Viggen simulator there is. I can't help loving the very special characteristics of Viggen, from the unique configuration to the thrust reversing abilities and much more. (During my military service, which itself did not had anything to do with the air force, I got to watch Viggen land and take off from an ordinary road strip. We stood... well, close. (Think aircraft carrier close). Since then I am completely hooked...

Saab JAS 39 Gripen is something else I just can't help admire and love. I am not a professional when it comes to aircrafts (especially considering the company I'm in here) but I am an enthusiast and from what I know I consider the Gripen on of the most competent fighter there is. This is *my* personal opinion and I do know that If compared with other fighters there are possibly many things they will excel Gripen in. I consider "fighter X is better than Y" comparisons useless and do not want to get into that here. I just personally consider Gripen impressive in many aspects.

While the Viggen and the F-14 has a sixties look and both are heavy and impressive, I just love the small size of Gripen. It looks rather cool and slim too.

Yes. I am into the looks of aircrafts. Then again, I am just an enthusiast and do not fly aircrafts nor do I build or maintain them. I just have to settle for looking at them. So what makes more sense than judging them for their looks?

edit note: tried to add pics

[Edited 2007-05-03 15:30:05]
[Edited 2007-05-03 15:41:54]

[Edited 2007-05-03 15:43:01]
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MCIGuy
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RE: Your Favorite Military Fighter!

Fri May 04, 2007 8:00 am

My heart wants me to say the Viper (F-16), but in honesty I'd have to say the world's current best fighter:

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RE: Your Favorite Military Fighter!

Fri May 04, 2007 8:15 am

F-22A and F-15 baby! Loud and fast, the way a fighter should be. Big grin

If it was still in service, the F-14 tomcat would be top on the list. But then it would be harder to get over it being gone.  Sad
 
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RE: Your Favorite Military Fighter!

Fri May 04, 2007 10:13 pm

My Top 3:

F-101B Voodoo

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F-104

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Hawker Hunter

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RE: Your Favorite Military Fighter!

Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:01 am

P-26 Peashooter

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RE: Your Favorite Military Fighter!

Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:10 pm

Quoting BilgeRat (Reply 5):
The only Allied fighter that was in production for the entire war,

I believe the P-40 was also produced throughout out the war, as was the Spitfire, as you mentioned. IIRC there were over 13,700 P-40s produced.

Now for my personal favorites;

F-105 Thud (did a great job at missions it was not designed to do, in Vietnam)

F-4 Phantom II

F-15 (any questions)

A-10 (any questions)

AC-130 (the USAF flying Battleship)

P-40, P-38, P-51, Bf-109, Me-262, A6M, Hurricane, F6F, & F4F
 
keesje
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RE: Your Favorite Military Fighter!

Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:36 pm

All have their unique looks.



Wath about the Siberian TU-128s, protecting the cold war USSR from the evil USA aggressors.

http://airwar.ru/image/idop/fighter/tu128/tu128-5.jpg

Large, elegant long range interceptors replaced by Mig Foxhounds in the late eighties
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RE: Your Favorite Military Fighter!

Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:49 am

F-14D Super Tomcat, with GE power of course!

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Dassault F-1; does anything look more predatory?

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RE: Your Favorite Military Fighter!

Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:23 am


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[Edited 2007-07-04 01:27:46]
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RE: Your Favorite Military Fighter!

Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:12 am

In my OPINION (Just to exclude myself from any abuse!) the best fighter is the Panavia Tornado F.3, or the Eurofighter Typhoon F.2, i say these though because i only really know about them as fighter jets. Many American jet that are mentioned i have never read into  Smile


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RE: Your Favorite Military Fighter!

Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:06 am

Quoting Tom12 (Reply 22):
Eurofighter Typhoon F.2,

If we're talking favorites then that's up to you....and the Typhoon is a beautiful airplane. But I'd say that you should read up on the F-22 before declaring anything else the best. Just my opinion......


that said....a Tornado flying overhead at 100 ft is pretty awesome looking.
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MCIGuy
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RE: Your Favorite Military Fighter!

Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:24 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 23):
If we're talking favorites then that's up to you....and the Typhoon is a beautiful airplane. But I'd say that you should read up on the F-22 before declaring anything else the best. Just my opinion......

I couldn't have said it better. The Raptor has more tricks up her sleeve than most are aware of. Most are published if you dig and read enough, some aren't. I'll never have the pleasure of strapping on a Raptor but I've talked to a couple of Raptor drivers. The F-22A dominates all engagements, period.  Wink
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HanginOut
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RE: Your Favorite Military Fighter!

Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:54 am

I am so torn, there are so many fighter out there that I like, but if I can only pick one (and since you said fighter and not attack/bomber, I would have to say that the Typhoon is my current favourite. What a beauty!


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RE: Your Favorite Military Fighter!

Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:34 am

Quoting BilgeRat (Reply 5):
Supermarine Spitfire - quite simply the most beautiful aeroplane ever built.

Nop, sorry, that honor has got to go to my all-time favorite, the gorgeous Dassault Rafale.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 18):
All have their unique looks.

Wow, great picture. You can really see the size differences in there.
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RE: Your Favorite Military Fighter!

Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:14 pm

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 24):
The F-22A dominates all engagements, period.

No, it hasn´t proven itself in combat. Stealth is grossly over rated.

I guess there are faster aircraft that have bigger radars, more warload & more agility.



So if you can have several of these for the price of one F22 I don´t know what´s better value.

The F22 has eighties technology and hardly surveyed budget cuts.

 stirthepot 

 Wink
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dl021
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RE: Your Favorite Military Fighter!

Sat Jul 07, 2007 12:30 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 27):
No, it hasn´t proven itself in combat. Stealth is grossly over rated.



Quoting Keesje (Reply 27):
I guess there are faster aircraft that have bigger radars, more warload & more agility.



Quoting Keesje (Reply 27):
So if you can have several of these for the price of one F22 I don´t know what´s better value.

The F22 has eighties technology and hardly surveyed budget cuts.

Dude...stop it. You know as well as anyone else that the F-22 is unsurpassed in it's role of air-dominance. With the kill ratios it's achieving against arguably the most qualified air force in the world (undeniably in the top 5 in terms of skill and experience) a small force of F-22's will kill a much larger force of pretty much anything else without taking significant losses (recent exercises had one being killed at point blank range when the aggressor pilot was closed for a gunshot resulting in both airplanes being killed).

Stealth that allows you to get close enough to use your stuff before the enemy uses his is a world beater.

Speed that allows you to close and escape after firing is a world beater.

Radar that allows you to individually target multiple bogeys for maximum range shots to increase the effectiveness of your stealth and speed is a world beater.

The airplane is powered by engines that have to be governed in order to avoid tearing the wings off. The radar is fairly unmatched. The stealth is the best anywhere. Eighties technology constantly upgraded into an airframe designed for modular upgrades to it's electronics. Shape and material improvements over the last 20 years of design work since first flight of prototypes (advantage to computer design). Stop the jealous sniping. It's a better airplane than anything out there, and just because most of Europes air forces can't afford it doesn't mean that what they have is better. It's just what they can afford. Tell me they wouldn't all buy F--22's if we subsidized them to make them cost the same as Typhoons.

Budget cuts are the biggest enemy it has. We'll probably end up with less than 300 of them, when we really need 400 or so, but those 275 or 300 we'll end up with can handle any potential enemy force when backed up by the legacy force we possess or the future F-35 force we'll bring to back it up.

Sometimes you just talk shit to stir the pot, which you acknowledge, but it would be funnier if there was potential for you being right.
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MCIGuy
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RE: Your Favorite Military Fighter!

Sat Jul 07, 2007 11:02 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 28):
So if you can have several of these for the price of one F22 I don´t know what´s better value.

{i]Very[/i] well said.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 27):
So if you can have several of these for the price of one F22 I don´t know what´s better value.

I do. Maybe you're not familiar with the term "force mulitiplier"?
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RE: Your Favorite Military Fighter!

Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:27 am

YF-12A / F-12B



The YF-12A actually flew, the F-12B would have been built had McNamara not axed it.

The YF-12A was an outgrowth of the CIA's A-12 high-speed interceptor design. The YF-12A was different in a number of ways. For one, it did not feature composite tailfins, using more conventional titanium pieces, and featured no RCS-specialized-technology including RAM wedges. The aircraft featured a two-seat cockpit with the fire-control-officer occupying the rear seat situated which quite simply did not exist on the A-12, with the cockpit raised somewhat to improve visibility as part of USAF specifications (even though it actually didn't make much of a difference as the plane didn't feature a clear-bubble canopy) a larger nose to house the massive AN/ASG-18 radar system and the associated heat-shield to go with it, and IRST-scanners to work with the radar and cutback chines since the radar and IRST's in their initial configuration couldn't see through the chines properly. Three of the chine bays were fitted to carry the GAR-9/AIM-47 long-range air-to-air missile with the forward right chine bay carrying some of the equipment associated with the fire-control-system, and the camera bay and some additional area cut out of the fuselage behind the landing gear to carry a fourth missile bay. Because the different nose configuration and raised cockpit reduced directional stability, the aircraft was fitted with two fixed fins under each engine-nacelle and one extendable/retractable fin under the centerline which extends out when the gears go up. The AN/ASG-18 with it's look-down/shoot-down and look-up/shoot-up capabilities made it extrordinarily effective at not just shooting down ordinary bombers, or even high-speed bombers, but low altitude aircraft flying low over the deck, and was even tested to evaluate it's capabilities against shooting down ICBM's. Using the look-down/shoot-down capability the AN/ASG-18 and AIM-47 pair shot down targets from 40,000 feet all the way down to 500 feet, coming in opposite directions with enormous closure rates with only one miss, which was chalked down to a missile failure rather than the target successfully evading the missile. The success rate against ICBM's were and are classified.

To enable the YF-12A to be rapidly started in a hurry to be able to start it and get it to the runway and into the air in a reasonable ammount of time, a chemical-start system which uses a chemical reaction to spin the J-58's rapidly up to speed.

The F-12B would have been a production model of the YF-12A. It would have looked more like the SR-71, featuring chines, as the radar-design was modified, featuring a new flat antenna that could now see through the chines, with all the large fire-control hardware equipment inside the plane's nose and fitted with properly profiled IRST scanners. The plane to my knowledge would have still featured a slightly raised cockpit as before, and was to still mount ventral fins under the engine-pods, but the central fin was deleted. The airplane was also to carry a fuel capacity that would have more closely reflected that of the SR-71. To my knowledge the plane also would have also, likely, featured a bob-tail like the SR-71, and may have been fitted with systems that would have allowed the plane to start at least one engine on it's own. The central missile-bay was to have been deleted with all four missiles carried in chine-bays. To reduce size, the new AIM-47B was to have been fitted with folding fins to allow it to fit in a slightly smaller bay.

There is some data to suggest that the F-12B had been considered for ground-attack roles, as it's radar could look down and shoot-down. To my knowledge, the idea of using the AN/ASG-18 radar for hitting ground targets had been thought of before the YF-12 was even built, when the radar platform was to have been part of the F-108 Rapier design, which in addition to being a two-man interceptor capable of operating outside of the SAGE network, was also to have been used as an XB-70 escort, carrying a modified AIM-47A with a neutron-kill warhead to neutralize nukes (I checked, it's not classified-- it's in a book I have), and also an AIM-47 derivative using a different seeker, but the same warhead, engine and airframe known as the AGM-76A. The AN/ASG-18 would have been programmed with additional modes for this to work, but to my knowledge was deemed do-able even when the F-108A Rapier was around. It is only logical to conclude that the F-12A could have been fitted with the AGM-76A variant and used for ground attacks during the war of it's time, Vietnam, in addition to it's interceptor role. The AIM-47 to the best of my knowledge was originally designed with a 250-kt thermonuclear warhead, but during the YF-12A program was re-fitted with a conventional warhead. Had the design entered service, I'm not sure if it would have had the nuclear-tipped variant as an option in an "end of the world" intercept scenario with a swarm of bombers coming in over the pole.

Unfortunately a number of factors contributed to the YF-12/F-12B, and even the whole A-12/SR-71 program's demise . One was the fact that interceptors were considered outdated as ICBM's were unstoppable and many people chose to believe that ICBM's would completely replace bombers. The other was Robert McNamara and the fact that the YF-12 program revealed how vulnerable the TFX program would be if the Russians developed a counterpart. Rather than realize the error of his ways, and either find another purpose for the F-111, replace it, modify it etc, he decided to simply take out the F-12 program. After all, the F-111 was his wet dream, lots of parts commonality, cheaper than building two or three specialized fighters which would be far more effective, and it looked good on graphs and charts. First he, selected the F-106X, which by most purposes was a pretty impressive outgrowth of the F-106. I'm pretty sure if it entered service it would have been given another designation as it was dramatically different than the regular F-106X... it featured bigger, more powerful engines, a pretty much completely re-designed inlet-system, complete titanium structure, the AN/ASG-18 radar system, with a modified weapons bay (featuring a single AIM-47A in the center bay, and 2 x AIM-26's in the left and right bay), a canard, a raised cockpit with better visibility, and fuel-bladders in the wings. To my knowledge the real thing that made this design work was the use of mass-injection pre-compressor-cooling (MIPCC) which is actually not all that different from water-injection, except in this case, it's not to boost thrust, it's to keep the engine from melting at high Mach numbers -- the F-106X was capable of Mach 5, although I'm not sure for how long it could hold that speed for. The design would cost a cool billion to build, while the YF-12A already had been built and been tested, and money spent already, the F-12B would only cost 360 million to get it into service. Quite accurately showing McNamara's flawed judgement as a result of his sheer desire to get rid of the F-12B. In McNamara's final act of vindictive stupidity, he ordered *ALL* the large-scale tooling on not just the YF-12A, but the A-12, the M-21, and the SR-71 (He also may have had it in for Kelly Johnson, also accounting for such actions), essentially killing every single blackbird program in one fell-swoop and making it impossible to build a new variant, or a better version (at least, not easily-- you theoretically COULD take one plane apart, and measure each part and make molds and tooling based on it)


Andrea Kent
 
A320ajm
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RE: Your Favorite Military Fighter!

Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:50 pm

My favourite of all time has to be:


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kmh1956
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RE: Your Favorite Military Fighter!

Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:15 pm

For me, it's always going to be the F-14.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 17):
F-105 Thud (did a great job at missions it was not designed to do, in Vietnam)

Did you ever read 'Thud Ridge' by Jack Broughton? I read it many years ago....brilliant!!
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FBU 4EVER!
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RE: Your Favorite Military Fighter!

Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:04 pm

WW2. Hawker Tempest Mk. V and Spitfire Mk.XIVe with teardrop canopy.

Postwar: Convair F-106 Delta Dart.It did Mach 1+ just standing on the tarmac! Big grin
"Luck and superstition wins all the time"!
 
GBOAE
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RE: Your Favorite Military Fighter!

Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:44 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 28):
Stop the jealous sniping. It's a better airplane than anything out there, and just because most of Europes air forces can't afford it doesn't mean that what they have is better. It's just what they can afford. Tell me they wouldn't all buy F--22's if we subsidized them to make them cost the same as Typhoons.

I read somewhere that a single RAF eurofighter was jumped by two USAF F15s in a training flight over england and evaded attacks by both the F15s and managed to get a missile lock on both. Hardly sounds like a poor mans aircraft does it?

The F22 isnt proven in combat so you cant say its better then anything out there. And by the sounds of it the USA will not have many more F22s then the UK will have typhoons. Alot of the features on the F22 arent all that new and can be mathced by that of other next generation fighters, for example the super cruise ability.

Your way too far up your own arse sometimes

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