PPVRA
Topic Author
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Brazilian F-X 2

Sun Jun 10, 2007 3:45 am



The new rumored contenders are the Typhoon and the Rafale. The SU-35 is expected to remain as a leading contender, the Gripen as well, and I'd expect maybe a new bid coming from Lockheed for the F-16. What is the best choice for us?

Just wondering what you guys think would be the outcome of a Rafale/Typhoon v. SU-35? And as a side question, the Indian Su-30s are equipped with Israeli systems, right? What has been the experience of the IAF with the Sukhois, especially in regards to reliability?

The F-X "2" program hasn't been announced yet, but many expect it to be.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
A342
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Sun Jun 10, 2007 4:45 am

Quoting PPVRA (Thread starter):
The new rumored contenders are the Typhoon and the Rafale. The SU-35 is expected to remain as a leading contender, the Gripen as well, and I'd expect maybe a new bid coming from Lockheed for the F-16. What is the best choice for us?

Just wondering what you guys think would be the outcome of a Rafale/Typhoon v. SU-35? And as a side question, the Indian Su-30s are equipped with Israeli systems, right? What has been the experience of the IAF with the Sukhois, especially in regards to reliability?

So the Mirage 2000 is out?

Regarding the Sukhoi aircraft, one has to be careful with the designations. There are so many of them, often for the same aircraft.

Here are the pros and cons for each aircraft, IMO:

Sukhoi Flankers:
pros: very long range, not very expensive, with TVC and Canards impressive manoeuvrability, superb ejection seat, some nice AAMs, no export restrictions
cons: limited choice of precision guided air-to-ground bombs

F16:
pros: very good radar (Block 60), large choice of precision air-to-ground weapons, with CFTs good range, less expensive than Typhoon/Rafale
cons: export restrictions might apply

Rafale:
pros: good range (CFTs are planned), large weapons load
cons: limited choice of weapons yet, might be a little expensive

Typhoon:
pros: good manoeuvrability, advanced man-machine interface, set to receive some nice weapons, proven supercruise capability
cons: very expensive, IMO medicore range without CFTs, limited choice of air-to-ground weapons yet

Gripen:
pros: relatively inexpensive, good short-field capability
cons: smaller weapons load than the others, range?


Please don't flame for this, just my opinion!
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
PPVRA
Topic Author
Posts: 7867
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Sun Jun 10, 2007 6:53 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 1):
So the Mirage 2000 is out?

That I couldn't say. Nothing official yet. The FAB bought 12X (second hand) M2000s from the French as an intermediate solution for our retired Mirage-3s, and those have been delivering since almost a year ago:


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Quoting A342 (Reply 1):
Sukhoi Flankers:
pros: very long range, not very expensive, with TVC and Canards impressive manoeuvrability, superb ejection seat, some nice AAMs, no export restrictions
cons: limited choice of precision guided air-to-ground bombs

Are you familiar with reliability of these aircraft? Before the turn of the millenium, our previous president's administration qualified the Sukhoi's as too much "aggregate risk" and chose the Gripen instead, but also chose to leave the final decision for the next administration (only to then delay it and finally cancel it). I'm not sure what they meant by "aggregate risk", but I suspect reliability and/or mx support issues.

Also - out of curiosity - would it be too expensive to fit Flankers with western systems? (including radar/missiles)

Quoting A342 (Reply 1):
F16:
pros: very good radar (Block 60), large choice of precision air-to-ground weapons, with CFTs good range, less expensive than Typhoon/Rafale
cons: export restrictions might apply

The F-16 was held as an ideal choice, but export restrictions to Chile dealing with BVR AAMs turned the FAB off from that plane. Even with assurance form the U.S. government. This can always change over time, though.

Quoting A342 (Reply 1):
Rafale:
pros: good range (CFTs are planned), large weapons load
cons: limited choice of weapons yet, might be a little expensive

Indeed, plenty of rumors about the Rafale, but price is still an issue. There were hopes Dassault would win deals for the Rafale and reduce/spread-out the development cost of the aircraft so to make it a bit more affordable.

Quoting A342 (Reply 1):
Typhoon:
pros: good manoeuvrability, advanced man-machine interface, set to receive some nice weapons, proven supercruise capability
cons: very expensive, IMO medicore range without CFTs, limited choice of air-to-ground weapons yet

The Typhoon is one of my (if not the) favorite aircraft. However, between the Rafale and the Typhoon, I don't see a lot of difference between them to justify the increase in cost for us. The longer range, however, is a plus for us.



Quoting A342 (Reply 1):
Gripen:
pros: relatively inexpensive, good short-field capability
cons: smaller weapons load than the others, range?

Range was the biggest issue given. Great aircraft though.

[Edited 2007-06-09 23:58:46]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
A342
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:13 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
Are you familiar with reliability of these aircraft?

No, but I haven't heard anything negative about it.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
Also - out of curiosity - would it be too expensive to fit Flankers with western systems? (including radar/missiles)

Well, newer Flankers have nice radars, and IIRC further upgrades are planned. IMO no need to install western systems. Same with AAMs. Also the Flanker has a relatively large range of precision air-to-ground missiles, but not as many bombs. I think that's where the problem lies.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
However, between the Rafale and the Typhoon, I don't see a lot of difference between them to justify the increase in cost for us. The longer range, however, is a plus for us.

Actually, the Rafale has the longer range.  Smile


My personal favourite is the Flanker. It's just amazing.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
Devilfish
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Sun Jun 10, 2007 5:26 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Thread starter):

The F-X "2" program hasn't been announced yet, but many expect it to be.

As long as it doesn't fizzle out like the previous one, then well and good. The candidates' list encompasses a very broad band of capabilities, so selection isn't very straightforward, unlike when there is some limiting criteria like MGW or number of engines, or indeed, price range - where comparing like for like could at least be approximated. Offset requirements would likely not be defined until release of RFP, so from a hi-lo perspective:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
The Typhoon is one of my (if not the) favorite aircraft.

In terms of capabilities and future potential, the Eurofighter is definitely the pick of the crop here. Understandably, that desirability commands a very high price which could handicap its campaign.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
Indeed, plenty of rumors about the Rafale, but price is still an issue. There were hopes Dassault would win deals for the Rafale and reduce/spread-out the development cost of the aircraft so to make it a bit more affordable.

The Rafale too, is very capable and has the advantage of a maritime variant in case Brazil envisages a future carrier force. Another factor is the FAB's familiarity with French equipment and past association with Dassault. And although EADS + Embraer is no more, French and Brazilian industrial cooperation could be restored with weapons, avionics and other contracts that could come with a Rafale win. Main drawback is the Rafale's unsuccessful export attempts, thus no widely fielded base to ensure easy availability of spares. This would also inhibit a drop in per frame price.


Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
Before the turn of the millenium, our previous president's administration qualified the Sukhoi's as too much "aggregate risk"

The Sukhoi's are topnotch aerodynamic machines with very good range, and offered with a good suite of A2A weapons, and very reasonably priced given its capabilities. Not as wide a choice for A2G, but still pretty impressive. Radars and avionics may suffer in comparison to Western types, but are undergoing upgrades, and in some cases completely new ones are proposed. The reliability issues are being addressed by more stringent TBO specs for the engines, which are also, reportedly being revamped.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
I'm not sure what they meant by "aggregate risk", but I suspect reliability and/or mx support issues.

Unfortunately, the strictest after sales support could be stipulated in the contract but maintenance and spares supply still come out spotty due to situations in the exporting country. The most that could be resorted to is to withhold progress payments until services improve, but fleet readiness will have already suffered. That might also impact commitments for the offset deals.


Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
Also - out of curiosity - would it be too expensive to fit Flankers with western systems? (including radar/missiles)

IINM, the Russians are quite accommodating with these type of arrangements. The problem is if Western companies would be similarly flexible with their prices and technology release without their usual partners. If we could go by what had been posted in this forum, Thales are supposed to be supplying electronics for ISR platforms from Ukraine in Venezuela.


Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
and chose the Gripen instead,

Very logical choice too. A true fourth generation design, the Gripen's biggest selling point is its netcentric ability. This allows it to function as battlespace C&C aircraft. Teamed with the Ericsson equipped ISR assets already in FAB service, it assures a proven, seamless combination that would act as a force multiplier. Its inherent multi-role capability will provide Brazil with an effective all-around air asset which could operate from diverse locations at a very reasonable price. A welcome bonus could be the involvement in local industry of the highly regarded SAAB Microwave Systems. Weak points are the single engine which would further be taxed by the increasing payload, and as a result, speed and range. News are that the engine is being uprated and weapons choice is being expanded in efforts to land contracts in Norway and Denmark. But the most opportune thing yet is that the Flygvapnet has declared around 70 JAS-39s surplus to its requirements, and would be offering those zero-timed for export. Overall, a very tempting prospect, considering the generous terms extended to the Czech, Hungarian and South African air forces.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):

The F-16 was held as an ideal choice, but export restrictions to Chile dealing with BVR AAMs turned the FAB off from that plane. Even with assurance form the U.S. government. This can always change over time, though.

Minus the age and political issues, the Falcon arguably has the best combination of attributes to make it as the FAB's frontline fighter. A choice of proven and very reliable engines, excellent radar and avionics, a very extensive array of smart weapons, good payload and with CFTs, very good range. Fully evolved and proven in air defense and ground attack roles. All at a reasonable price. Pluses include very reliable after sales service (intervening circumstances notwithstanding  Wink), and the thousands of examples in worldwide use assuring diverse inter-operability and wide availability of spares and support. The generation issue could be tackled by incorporating features included in the F-16 Future Options list. Depending on the outcome of the IAF tender, an F-16NG could yet emerge as a longshot. If not, concerns about export restrictions could be ovecome by a mutually acceptable compromise like the Sufa on offer to India where IAI would supply the radars and avionics, as well as some of the weapons systems. IIRC, IAI's work on the FAB's F-5s went well? Another incentive is the weak dollar, though this may be gone long before a contract is signed.

To complete the list and balance the low and high choices, I will include here the MiG-35. Relatively inexpensive and well-powered, most notable feature is thrust-vectoring giving the already very aerodynamic airframe even more impressive maneuverability. Highly capable in air to air combat and ground attack roles. Wide weapons choice. Downsides are the radars and avionics, the current status of MiG in the consolidated Russian military aircraft manufacturing organization, the aforementioned infamous support service, and the progressively stronger Rouble.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
A342
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:09 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 4):
Downsides are the radars and avionics

The MiG-35 addressed just that. It has a new fully AESA radar and a new glass cockpit.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
Acheron
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:13 am

I'm aware the questions were asked to A342 but I'll chime in.

Quoting PPVRA (Thread starter):
Indian Su-30s are equipped with Israeli systems, right? What has been the experience of the IAF with the Sukhois, especially in regards to reliability?

The indian MKI use some israeli equipment and are able to use Rafael Litening pods.
The initial entry into service in 1997 with the IAF was a bit troublesome, though these were early Su-30K birds while the integration of israeli and russian avionics with indian software took place. As far as I know, there are three batches of MKI's, Mk.1 early deliveries where not all of the systems were present; Mk.2 Futher integration and Mk.3 with is the final version with all the systems are integrated. Early versions will updated to this standard and the Su-30K birds were given back as payment.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
I'm not sure what they meant by "aggregate risk", but I suspect reliability and/or mx support issues.

Also - out of curiosity - would it be too expensive to fit Flankers with western systems? (including radar/missiles)

Well, speaking for the Venezuelan MK2's the mx support has been great, as of now, the group has logged a little over 700 flight hours in a little more than 6 months(the average for a NATO group I believe is around 300 hours yearly)without any hitch other than a bird ingestion by one of the Flankers but it returned to the base safely and was up in the air again in less than a week. You don't achieve that without the help of the manufacturer and shows that Sukhoi is improving its costumer support, of course, they haven't reached LM levels of support, but they seem to be on the right track.
Also, Sukhoi send lots of spareparts to Malaysia even before the firsts MKM Flanker arrived, just as the Malaysians requested.

As for fitting western avionics to the Su-35BM, why?. The Su-35BM(which is the real deal, so to speak and will be unveiled at MAKS 2007) is better in every aspect to the MKI/MKM birds. But yes, its possible, except it would take you a few years until the first plane its delivered, specially switching the radar(don't see the point, though, since the BM will have an AESA radar). Not sure about the missiles, seeing that anchoring points in russian weapons and western weapons differ.
 
deskflier
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:51 am

Why are there single-engined types in the race for this contract? Who in their right mind would fly a single-engined aircraft that lacks any capability to land on water and is virtually unable to fly dead-stick (both control-wise and in terms of L/D), over the Amazon jungle? The only thing the twins has speaking against them is that most of them are very big (=excessively expensive).

(LOL) Oh my God, what have I done? Just hope that I won't face treason charges for this. (LOL)
How can anyone not fly, when we live at a time when we can fly?
 
Devilfish
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:24 am

For lack of photos in the database of the exact versions to be entered in the competition, can we use these instead as points of reference?.....

MiG-29OVT for MiG-35

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Photo © Sergey Krivchikov - Russian AviaPhoto Team
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Photo © Sergey Krivchikov - Russian AviaPhoto Team



Su-35

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Photo © Sergey Riabsev - Russian AviaPhoto Team
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Photo © Joseph Tonna



Quoting Deskflier (Reply 7):
Who in their right mind would fly a single-engined aircraft that lacks any capability to land on water

Yes, a twin is absolutely essential. They should go for this.....

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Photo © Eric Coeckelberghs
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Photo © Alexandr Zhukov - Russian AviaPhoto Team



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Photo © Fyodor Borisov - Russian AviaPhoto Team
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Photo © Jos Schoofs


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Photo © Fyodor Borisov - Russian AviaPhoto Team



Quoting Deskflier (Reply 7):
and is virtually unable to fly dead-stick (both control-wise and in terms of L/D), over the Amazon jungle?

In which case they could land on the Amazon River.

Quoting Deskflier (Reply 7):
Why are there single-engined types in the race for this contract? ..... The only thing the twins has speaking against them is that most of them are very big (=excessively expensive).

If you would finance the project, then I'm sure the FAB would only be too happy to oblige.

Seriously, the carrier variant of the MiG-29 would be a good candidate in case Brazil sees that for the Marinha.

[Edited 2007-06-11 03:45:23]
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
PPVRA
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Tue Jun 12, 2007 7:23 am

Wow that's alot to answer! Thanks a lot all of you!!

Quoting A342 (Reply 3):
Actually, the Rafale has the longer range.  

Wow, totally got that backwards. Really takes away much from the Typhoon for us then.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 4):
The Rafale too, is very capable and has the advantage of a maritime variant in case Brazil envisages a future carrier force.

We already have a carrier (also bought from the French, second-hand), but I'm sure the Marinha has opther priorities right now. Since the end of the dictatorships our militaries have seen a blowback and are extremely underfunded. Things are slowly changing, though.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 4):
Unfortunately, the strictest after sales support could be stipulated in the contract but maintenance and spares supply still come out spotty due to situations in the exporting country. The most that could be resorted to is to withhold progress payments until services improve, but fleet readiness will have already suffered. That might also impact commitments for the offset deals.

Indeed what I have read about the Indian AF. I remember an article claming "defense sources" saying that 30% to 40% of all IAF Sulhois were grounded due to lack of spares. This kind of thing is not taken lightly in Brazil (I'm sure latin america as well). The FAB would be seriously ridiculed if that were to happen ("billion dollar+ fighter deal that stays in the hangar").

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 4):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
and chose the Gripen instead,

Very logical choice too.

Can the Gripen be fitted with CFTs? Shouldn't be too expensive/complex. . .??

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 4):
IIRC, IAI's work on the FAB's F-5s went well?

So far so good. Embraer/IAI began delivering them back late last year IIRC. Some info on their capabilities in this link:
http://www.patricksaviation.com/wiki/F-5BR_(F-5M)_Tiger_II

Quoting Acheron (Reply 6):
You don't achieve that without the help of the manufacturer and shows that Sukhoi is improving its costumer support, of course, they haven't reached LM levels of support, but they seem to be on the right track.

Thanks for the input form the Venezuelan experience. I hope they have indeed improved as you say.



Quoting Acheron (Reply 6):
As for fitting western avionics to the Su-35BM, why?. The Su-35BM(which is the real deal, so to speak and will be unveiled at MAKS 2007) is better in every aspect to the MKI/MKM birds. But yes, its possible, except it would take you a few years until the first plane its delivered, specially switching the radar(don't see the point, though, since the BM will have an AESA radar). Not sure about the missiles, seeing that anchoring points in russian weapons and western weapons differ.

Mostly based on my readings that Russian electronics tend to lag behind somewhat, especially as far as ECMs is concerned. Also, we use many western systems and perhaps integration with those would be easier and make most/better use of what we have available.

I didn't know about the BM variant. Hard to find much info/updates of the SU-35 online.

Quoting Deskflier (Reply 7):

Most military assets are in the center/southern regions, not in the amazon. That has been changing in the past 8 years, though.


Again, thank you all for the very valuable input!
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Acheron
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:48 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 9):
Mostly based on my readings that Russian electronics tend to lag behind somewhat, especially as far as ECMs is concerned. Also, we use many western systems and perhaps integration with those would be easier and make most/better use of what we have available.

I didn't know about the BM variant. Hard to find much info/updates of the SU-35 online.

Recently the Russians released the Sorbtsiya ECM pods for export(yeah, they actually don't export some equipment
 laughing  ) and I've heard it gets the job done, precisely because it hasn't been outside Russia and its specs are not that known. Apparently the russians are confident enough about it that they permanently replaced the wingtip rails with said pods in the Su-35BM.

Some equipment has been developed with the help of western manufacturers, an example would be the GOES 342 FLIR turret present in the Mi-35M2 was developed with the help of SAGEM, same goes for the latests versions SAPSAN-E targeting pods employed in the Flanker family(The IR ball in the MiG-35 its probably one of the few devices that could track a F-22 at decent range). As far as I've heard, the last Flanker will hold its ground very well against a anything you can throw at it, except an F-22.

As for the Su-35BM per se, like I mentioned before, it will be the last of the Flanker family until the arrival of the PAK-FA. It will have an N035 Irbis-E AESA radar with a range of 400km for a target with an RCS of 3 m2(as per manufacturer), it will be able to supercruise, the structure has been modified and made more lightweight, it will probably be able to carry R-37M(range of 300km, and I say probably because the brochure only says Long Range Missile, which could be R-172 or the R-37M).
Also, quite new for the Flanker family, it will be able to carry external fuel tanks, giving more range to a plane that already had an impresive range.
Heres the brochure showed at LAAD.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b207/acheroncyc/su35_10.jpg
Yes, that's 12 medium range missiles on one go.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b207/acheroncyc/su35_01.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b207/acheroncyc/su35_02.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b207/acheroncyc/su35_08.jpg
 
Devilfish
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:34 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 9):

Can the Gripen be fitted with CFTs? Shouldn't be too expensive/complex. . .??

This is the only thing I could find, and it's dated.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles.../06/12/131212/network-fighter.html

Quote:
"Gripen has often been linked with a new or upgraded engine, which, says Brown, continues to be a longer term possibility. Range and endurance could be improved by using conformal fuel tanks or incorporating a fuselage plug in the aircraft. The latter would be the same length as the two-seater, but the rear cockpit area would be a fuel tank."

Note the bulge over the wing in the second image. The GE 414 engine was mentioned in the latest releases, but not CFT - only increased internal fuel capacity.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ipen-variants-studied-by-saab.html

http://www.gripen.com/en/GripenFighter/RemainLeadingEdge.htm

It seems CFTs are not being actively pursued.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
BarfBag
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:15 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 9):
Indeed what I have read about the Indian AF. I remember an article claming "defense sources" saying that 30% to 40% of all IAF Sulhois were grounded due to lack of spares.

Sorry, that is incorrect. We are no different from Brazil in terms of tolerating maintenance issues. The real story is that the IAF positively flogged the initial Su-30Ks, and the original plan for progressively upgrading the frames to MKI standard was changed in favour of fresh airframes. It wasn't about spares, but that the IAF put in a large number of hours *and* cycles into the original Ks, through a combination of short base runs and long IFRed 10hr missions. Spares and maintenance are not a huge issue - HAL manufactures the Su-30MKIs and parts locally now, and several locally manufactured specimens have already been in IAF service for a while now.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:12 am

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 12):
We are no different from Brazil in terms of tolerating maintenance issues.

I didn't mean to claim India is not, just that the FAB could avert serious ridicule by learning from other AFs experiences. I found an article with the claims I quoted, but its from the Malaysian National News Agency (not an Indian source and I don't know their reliability):

"In addition, according to defence sources, almost thirty to fifty per cent of IAF Russian supplied fighters remain grounded due to want of essential spares."
http://www.bernama.com.my/bernama/v3/news.php?id=263558

Quote is towards the end of the article, which is not even a month old.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 12):
Spares and maintenance are not a huge issue - HAL manufactures the Su-30MKIs and parts locally now, and several locally manufactured specimens have already been in IAF service for a while now.

That should help ensure smooth operations (if it is a problem to begin with). But while the FAB is expected to eventually order a larger number of fighters, initially, it's supposed to be only 12-24 or so. No economy of scale to justify local manufacturing yet.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 11):

Thanks for the articles. Very interesting.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 10):

Thanks for the detailed info. It's a great aircraft and one of the top contenders, no doubt.

I just hop they officially launch the program soon!  Smile
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
BarfBag
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:39 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 13):
"In addition, according to defence sources, almost thirty to fifty per cent of IAF Russian supplied fighters remain grounded due to want of essential spares."

The IAF currently operates the entire MiG-2x range, not just the Su-30 MKI. The spares issue primarily affected the Fulcrums and Fishbeds, and has since been resolved. Unnamed 'sources' aren't particularly credible; if effectively half the IAF fleet was grounded, there would have been a hell of a lot more press about it. The Defence Minister is answerable to Parliament during the publicly televised question hour, and he has at no time indicated anything of the sort. The spares and financial issues in the article you quoted pertains to the rapid rise of commodity metal prices in the last 2 years, because of which the Russians pushed to renegotiate the escalation clauses.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:24 am

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 14):

Thanks for the explanation.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
md90fan
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:25 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):

That I couldn't say. Nothing official yet. The FAB bought 12X (second hand) M2000s from the French as an intermediate solution for our retired Mirage-3s, and those have been delivering since almost a year ago:

Yes, 4are in service and are stationed around Brasilia, 8 more to go.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 6):
Indian Su-30s are equipped with Israeli systems, right? What has been the experience of the IAF with the Sukhois, especially in regards to reliability?

I've only heard them say good things about them, especially in PR's and military excersises.

The HAL built Su-30MKIs had some initial production problems, but that is being addressed and in the meantime India ordered more Irkut builds.

Also Brazil was/is interested in acquiring 50 Be-103 light amphibious airplanes and Mi-17 helicopters amongst other things  wink 

http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=11444348&PageNum=0
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
PPVRA
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:30 am

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 16):

Also Brazil was/is interested in acquiring 50 Be-103 light amphibious airplanes and Mi-17 helicopters amongst other things wink

Haven't heard anything in a while, especially about the Be-103s. Last thing I heard was about the helicopters and, IIRC the model, they also talked about the MI-34/35 as well as either the MI-17 or the MI-26 (or both?) to transport mobile radars and other equipment around the amazon (SIVAM surveillance program).

I believe both the Be-103 and the MI-17 are already certified in Brazil, but only one MI-17 in operations that I know of.


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Devilfish
Posts: 5182
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:26 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
Also - out of curiosity - would it be too expensive to fit Flankers with western systems? (including radar/missiles)

Further to this, I think the best source of information is Malaysia.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...F38AAAEAAAIR1TIAAAAO&modele=jdc_34

Quote:
"The Su-30МКМ was developed by the Sukhoi Design Bureau on basis of the super maneuverable fighter the Su-30MKI. The aircraft has the same aerodynamically perfect airframe, state-of-the-art engine with the Thrust Vector Control (TVC) and the most advanced digital fly-by-wire system. The MKM version differs from the MKI by virtue of the composition of the onboard avionics. The French company ТHALES supplies the Head-up display (HUD), navigational forward-looking IR system NAVFLIR and Laser Designation pod (LDP Damocles). Aircraft carries missile approach warning sensor (MAWS) and laser warning sensor (LWS) manufactured by the AVITRONICS company (South Africa).

The electronic warfare (EW) system, up-to-date radar (with a phased antenna array capable of simultaneously tracking 15 and attacking 4 targets), optic-location system with the laser rangefinder are all produced by leading Russian manufacturers.

Officers from the RMAF have formed a Su-30MKM Project Team which is based in Moscow; the team has actively participated in the integration of all the avionics systems."
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
md90fan
Posts: 2798
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:15 am

RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:17 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 17):
Haven't heard anything in a while, especially about the Be-103s. Last thing I heard was about the helicopters and, IIRC the model, they also talked about the MI-34/35 as well as either the MI-17 or the MI-26 (or both?) to transport mobile radars and other equipment around the amazon (SIVAM surveillance program).

All of them would suit Brasil's needs, I am just wondering when they will order some. Whatever happened with the Black Hawks?

Also, DEVILFISH, IAF's Su-30MKI's produced from the Su-30MKI-MK3 batch were supposed to have Litening pods  bouncy 

http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
PPVRA
Topic Author
Posts: 7867
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Sun Jun 17, 2007 11:26 am

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 19):
Whatever happened with the Black Hawks?

Most if not all delivered. Last year IIRC.



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 18):

Thank you again!
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Devilfish
Posts: 5182
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:35 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 20):
Thank you again!

You are welcome. And here's another tidbit about CFTs for the Gripen.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-more-payload-for-gripen-demo.html

Quote:
"The Gripen Demo aircraft will have a revised configuration, with a new forward-retracting main landing gear that frees up internal volume for extra fuel, and with distinctive bulged wingroot fairings underwing providing further increases in internal volume. The use of these fairings replaces the upper fuselage conformal tanks seen on previous studies, and will provide an extra 38% of internal fuel, taking the total to 3,130 kg."
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Devilfish
Posts: 5182
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:08 pm

Welcome news. The F-X2 competition is being revived! But this time around, the lineup is dominated by twins, except for the JSF and SAAB Gripen.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...g-upon-f-x2-fighter-program-04179/

F-X2: The Competition

Quote:
"For this second round of the FX competition, Dassault's Rafale, Eurofighter's Typhoon, Saab's JAS-39 Gripen, and Sukhoi's recently-unveiled SU-35 are all reported to be back in contention. The Air Force is also said to be interested in the Lockheed-Martin F-35, but the finalized nature of the industrial production partnership program may well get in the way. The Mirage 2000 production line is closing, however, and interest in the F-16 appears to have faded; neither has been mentioned as a contender this time around."

DID's analysis of the contenders is quite insightful. Coupled with the parallel procurement for helos, Brazil's armed forces are really looking at a serious buildup. Let's hope both push ahead.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
PPVRA
Topic Author
Posts: 7867
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:18 pm

Yeah it's good to hear. I just hope something comes out of this once and for all.

At least there seems to be more of a political will behind it this time.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Acheron
Posts: 1828
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Sat Nov 10, 2007 2:59 am

I believe the only real contender in this are the Su-35 and the Rafale. The amount of technology transfer that Brazil requires will rule out the F-35 and the french will hopefully learn from the Morocco experience.
 
wvsuperhornet
Posts: 517
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:27 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 1):
So the Mirage 2000 is out?

Regarding the Sukhoi aircraft, one has to be careful with the designations. There are so many of them, often for the same aircraft.

Here are the pros and cons for each aircraft, IMO:

Sukhoi Flankers:
pros: very long range, not very expensive, with TVC and Canards impressive manoeuvrability, superb ejection seat, some nice AAMs, no export restrictions
cons: limited choice of precision guided air-to-ground bombs

F16:
pros: very good radar (Block 60), large choice of precision air-to-ground weapons, with CFTs good range, less expensive than Typhoon/Rafale
cons: export restrictions might apply

Rafale:
pros: good range (CFTs are planned), large weapons load
cons: limited choice of weapons yet, might be a little expensive

Typhoon:
pros: good manoeuvrability, advanced man-machine interface, set to receive some nice weapons, proven supercruise capability
cons: very expensive, IMO medicore range without CFTs, limited choice of air-to-ground weapons yet

Gripen:
pros: relatively inexpensive, good short-field capability
cons: smaller weapons load than the others, range?

I happen to agree with you the only other con I would note would be on the SU-35 Since none have acually been sold yet there could become an issue with spare parts. Also I thought that the F-16 wasn't in contention any longer I thought that the US had offered the F-18 Superhornet instead? If anyone can add anything to this.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 24):
I believe the only real contender in this are the Su-35 and the Rafale. The amount of technology transfer that Brazil requires will rule out the F-35 and the french will hopefully learn from the Morocco experience.

I think your wrong on this the SU-35 hasnt been sold to anyone yet and since Brazil already has experience with French Aircraft I think that the Rafale although an expensive and very difficult aircraft to learn how to operate would probably have a little edge over Russian made equipment. Your right even though the US has been willing to transfer technology from the F-35 to some countries, its very unlikley that it will Brazil.
 
Acheron
Posts: 1828
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Sat Nov 10, 2007 7:29 am

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 25):
SU-35 Since none have acually been sold yet there could become an issue with spare parts

Not really. Sukhoi realized that to be competitive, they needed to pick up their act, specially with post-sale support. Venezuela's MK2 have logged more than 1000 hours without a hick in less than a year of service, including a bird ingestion(and the plane didn't spend more than a few days in the ground). You don't achieve those numbers if the manufacturer's support wasn't apropiate. Of course, its not on the Lockheed's level, for example, but its getting there.

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 25):
I think your wrong on this the SU-35 hasnt been sold to anyone yet

There is a rumour that there is a client already but its being kept secret. You just will have to wait until 2009 when production starts.

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 25):
and since Brazil already has experience with French Aircraft I think that the Rafale although an expensive and very difficult aircraft to learn how to operate would probably have a little edge over Russian made equipment.

Several countries that already operated french fighters such as the Mirage didn't go for the Rafale for those air forces that have replaced the previous generations, precisely because its expensive and the french stubborness, but, in my opinion, if the Rafale is picked will be mostly based on political grounds rather than technical.

In an article in spanish, some of the requirements were posted. These included it to be twin-engined(not mandatory though), being able to carry A-Darter and Derby/Alto missiles and the possibility of adapting Elbit equipment(since Brazil has a license to locally produce some of them). And the all technology transfers that Brazil requires, of course.
The Flanker has the advantage regarding adapting Israeli equiment to planes since part of the Su-30MKI's equipment(avionics, I believe) are from Elbit, all that integrated with the russian's Bars radar and Indian software.
 
wvsuperhornet
Posts: 517
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:21 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 26):
In an article in spanish, some of the requirements were posted. These included it to be twin-engined(not mandatory though), being able to carry A-Darter and Derby/Alto missiles and the possibility of adapting Elbit equipment(since Brazil has a license to locally produce some of them). And the all technology transfers that Brazil requires, of course.
The Flanker has the advantage regarding adapting Israeli equiment to planes since part of the Su-30MKI's equipment(avionics, I believe) are from Elbit, all that integrated with the russian's Bars radar and Indian software.

Yes but to my knowledge its the SU-35 that is being looked at not the SU-30 unless something has changed the SU-35 which is a new aircraft and different from the SU-30 carry's russian avaionics and russian weapons, I havent heard anyone say that it is compatable with any western weapons systems or avionics yet. I am not knocking the russian weapons but it would be a different beast to learn if they dont have any experience with their technology. As far as there being a client we will just have to wait and see the SU-35 is going to come out as expensive if not more than the F-15K or F-15SG it may even run close to costs on the Euro-fighter. My guess would be China maybe a slim maybe India would be the only ones able to afford it outside of Russia. While it may be a strong air to air fighter its ground attack seems to lack so I am still not convinced Brazil would need such an aircraft with the funds they have. My personal opinion if they want to go Russian they would be better off purchasing the MIG-35 it would be more of a reasonable aircraft for them. If they go western either the rafale or Superhornet or the block 60 F-16 would do them fine.

[Edited 2007-11-10 23:24:44]
 
Acheron
Posts: 1828
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:19 am

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 27):
Yes but to my knowledge its the SU-35 that is being looked at not the SU-30 unless something has changed the SU-35 which is a new aircraft and different from the SU-30 carry's russian avaionics and russian weapons, I havent heard anyone say that it is compatable with any western weapons systems or avionics yet.

Does it matter?. Its made by the same company and plant(both the MK2's and Su-35 are being manufactured in the KnAPPO plat at Komsomolsk-na-Amur. The MKI, MKM and MKA are manufactured at Irkut).
It can be made compatible with wetern weapons because the russians have been using MIL-STD-1553 data bus in their planes for a while, which is the same data bus used in NATO planes, so part of the job is already done.

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 27):
I am not knocking the russian weapons but it would be a different beast to learn if they dont have any experience with their technology.

Incorporating a new aircraft regardless of its origin will always require some learning. A Mirage III its not even close to a Rafale or an EF, neither the F-5E's, etc.

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 27):
As far as there being a client we will just have to wait and see the SU-35 is going to come out as expensive if not more than the F-15K or F-15SG it may even run close to costs on the Euro-fighter.

Maybe, maybe not, we might not know considering the secrecy when it comes to prices.

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 27):
My guess would be China maybe a slim maybe India would be the only ones able to afford it outside of Russia.

Neither. Try again  Silly

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 27):
While it may be a strong air to air fighter its ground attack seems to lack



Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 27):
so I am still not convinced Brazil would need such an aircraft with the funds they have.

The EF still is a mostly an A2A aircraft., so they shouldn't get it either?.

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 27):
My personal opinion if they want to go Russian they would be better off purchasing the MIG-35 it would be more of a reasonable aircraft for them.

I disagree, its a good plane but not comparable to the Flanker. Besides, Rosoboronexport is the one who represents both companies and if they decided to submit the Su-35 and not the MiG-35, there must be a good reason.

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 27):
r Superhornet or the block 60 F-16 would do them fine.

American planes are not in the run, it seems. Political risk is too high, which would mean the grounding of the fleet.
Pretty much like the Brazilian Army helicopter dontest, in which there is no american product.
 
A342
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:22 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 28):
A Mirage III its not even close to a Rafale or an EF, neither the F-5E's, etc.

BTW, the modernized Brazilian F-5s are supposed to be quite capable. Does anybody happen to know if it can now carry any medium-range AAMs (e.g. Derby)?
Buying more used F-5s and modernizing them could be an effective stop-gap measure.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
PPVRA
Topic Author
Posts: 7867
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:13 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 29):

Yup, they bought some recently. 11 of them from Jordan.

And yes the have Derbys, and also acquired SKYSHIELD and LITENING III.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Acheron
Posts: 1828
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:41 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 29):
BTW, the modernized Brazilian F-5s are supposed to be quite capable. Does anybody happen to know if it can now carry any medium-range AAMs (e.g. Derby)?

I was talking about the unmodernized F-5E, not the F-5BR. Although it is indeed a very capable platform, being able to carry Derby and using Helmet Mounted Display and other things, but I think you are still limited by the payload and design of the F-5, being as old as it is.
Admitelly, them couple with an R-99A aircraft were quite a headache during Cruzex 2006, "shooting down" a few french Mirage 2000.
 
Devilfish
Posts: 5182
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:08 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 24):
the french will hopefully learn from the Morocco experience.

Or else it might be the Rafale's Waterloo.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 26):

Several countries that already operated french fighters such as the Mirage didn't go for the Rafale for those air forces that have replaced the previous generations, precisely because its expensive

Considering that Brazil might be their last chance for a Rafale export, Dassault could be very willing to cut its profit, and the French government be less obstinate.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 28):
Incorporating a new aircraft regardless of its origin will always require some learning. A Mirage III its not even close to a Rafale or an EF, neither the F-5E's, etc.

The Mirage 2000s they're getting could reduce the amount of learning they need.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 26):
There is a rumour that there is a client already but its being kept secret.

Could that be the reason I can no longer find the new thread you started? There was another by LtAWACS though.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 153):

Basically what it says its that according to Rosoboronexport's director, Sergey Chemezov, Venezuela could become the first customer of the newest member of the Flanker family


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BTW, I notice you're now in Sweden - business with Bofors?

Quoting Acheron (Reply 28):
Neither. Try again

Iran?.....

http://www.aviationweek.com/shownews/

Quoting Acheron (Reply 28):
if they decided to submit the Su-35 and not the MiG-35, there must be a good reason.

The same reason LockMart have for switching to the JSF (BTW, is this confirmed)?

Quoting Acheron (Reply 24):
The amount of technology transfer that Brazil requires will rule out the F-35



Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 25):
Your right even though the US has been willing to transfer technology from the F-35 to some countries, its very unlikley that it will Brazil.

From the link.....

Quote:
"The Air Force is also said to be interested in the Lockheed-Martin F-35, but the finalized nature of the industrial production partnership program may well get in the way.

I wouldn't be too quick to write off the JSF as yet. Brazil is likely more interested in aerospace areas where their local industry could participate rather than the black art of stealth technology. If the US sees a JSF sale to the FAB as necessary to preserve military balance in the region, then it will work towards that end. And it isn't as if the F-35 would be much more expensive than the Eurofighter, Flanker or Rafale.

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Anyway, the Gripen remains a dark horse here and could very well spring a surprise.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 30):

Happy A.net Birthday!
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
wvsuperhornet
Posts: 517
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:18 pm

RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:58 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 28):
Neither. Try again

Just was making a judgement in my opinion but don't really care enough to put much thought into it.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 28):
I disagree, its a good plane but not comparable to the Flanker. Besides, Rosoboronexport is the one who represents both companies and if they decided to submit the Su-35 and not the MiG-35, there must be a good reason.

Really and there is a Brazillian threat out there that would mean extra millions put on their tax payers they need such a large plane. Yeah there is a good reason the SU-35's are more expensive and they can charge more.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 28):
American planes are not in the run, it seems. Political risk is too high, which would mean the grounding of the fleet.
Pretty much like the Brazilian Army helicopter dontest, in which there is no american product.

Yeah but we will have to wait and see what happens when old Hugo makes Mr. Putin mad as to how readily the spare parts come in for their aircraft. There are risks when ever you purchase any foreign military equipement the Russians are no different.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 32):
I wouldn't be too quick to write off the JSF as yet. Brazil is likely more interested in aerospace areas where their local industry could participate rather than the black art of stealth technology. If the US sees a JSF sale to the FAB as necessary to preserve military balance in the region, then it will work towards that end. And it isn't as if the F-35 would be much more expensive than the Eurofighter, Flanker or Rafale.

I agree Brazil has long wanted a relationship with US aerospace and the F-35 is a good aircraft.
 
Devilfish
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Mon Nov 12, 2007 7:25 pm

Flightglobal has picked up the story.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...to-update-brazilian-air-force.html

Quote:
"But Brazil is far more concerned about neighbouring Venezuela's rapid purchase of large amounts of defence equipment, including fixed-wing aircraft and helicopters. The country is now negotiating the purchase of 10 medium transport helicopters for its army, with the Eurocopter AS532 Cougar and Mil Mi-171V on its shortlist."
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
PPVRA
Topic Author
Posts: 7867
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:53 pm

Any guesses on the helicopters? Any knowledge of their cost? I think the Cougars are good helis but maybe its time for an upgrade. I like the Merlin.

As for the attack ones, I like the AW129s.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 32):

Happy A.net Birthday!

Thanks! It's crazy, three years already!
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
baron95
Posts: 1106
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:43 am

Why the heck don't the Brazilians just go for the F-35? I mean the way they take so long to make a decision, F35 slots will be available. The price is right and they'll get a true G5 multirole fighter. Since they tend to keep their fighters for 30+ years, that is the only sane option.

Why the FAB has a penchant for second rate fighters like the F-5 (err T38 trainer) or the range/load/systems restricted Mirages of the 70s is beyond me.

Maybe now that Chavez is getting SUs  Smile perhaps they'll get their senses and order some decent HW. Sell all the just they've got, get 24xF16-B60 to get up to speed with EASA radars and single-engine tactics with permission to re-sell once they get the F35s - they'd need 48 of those.

Station 12 in Rio Grande do Sul, 12 in Rio, 12 in Amazon (north), 12 in Mato Grosso (west). Get 8 tankers and 8 AWACS and they are in business for 40 years.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
Acheron
Posts: 1828
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:59 am



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 32):
BTW, I notice you're now in Sweden - business with Bofors?

Lol, no. Has to do with the sale of a.net to Demand Media. Besides, Bofors joined the veto, so no much to look for in there.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 32):

Iran?.....

Nope. Big grin

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 32):

Anyway, the Gripen remains a dark horse here and could very well spring a surprise.

It could very well be indeed

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 33):
Yeah there is a good reason the SU-35's are more expensive and they can charge more.

Or maybe the Su-35 its the better plane with more chances of winning, which is not surprising considering that both aircrafts are in different categories.

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 33):
Yeah but we will have to wait and see what happens when old Hugo makes Mr. Putin mad as to how readily the spare parts come in for their aircraft.

I think Putin can't complain much considering that after years of trying getting into the LatAm market en masse, Chavez and the veto offered them a great oportunity of doing so. An example of this is that tradionally pro-western armed forces such as Chile, were going to purchase Mi-17's but alas, politics(and russophobia) got in the way.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 34):
But Brazil is far more concerned about neighbouring Venezuela's rapid purchase of large amounts of defence equipment, including fixed-wing aircraft and helicopters.

Bollocks.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 34):
The country is now negotiating the purchase of 10 medium transport helicopters for its army, with the Eurocopter AS532 Cougar

More like EC725's for the CSAR squadron.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 36):
Why the heck don't the Brazilians just go for the F-35? I mean the way they take so long to make a decision, F35 slots will be available. The price is right and they'll get a true G5 multirole fighter. Since they tend to keep their fighters for 30+ years, that is the only sane option.

Because a requirement for the purchase is a level of technology transfer that even the partner nations of the program didn't get, and those who did had a hard time getting it.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 36):
Why the FAB has a penchant for second rate fighters like the F-5 (err T38 trainer) or the range/load/systems restricted Mirages of the 70s is beyond me.

Well, not all airforces have the budget of the USAF nor the ability to get new planes like their pilots get new underwear. You have to optimize your resources even if that means operating old, payload restricted airplanes. Besides, not so long ago, those planes were still valid systems in a LatAm conflict, that is, until the arrival of Chile's Block 50M/Block 15MLU and Venezuela's Flankers.
And even then, I wouldn't rule some of them out considering a few F-5 downed several French Mirage 2000.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 36):
24xF16-B60

They'd have to pay Jordan royalties fees for them since they were the ones who paid for the development of the Block 60, so that means more money.
 
wvsuperhornet
Posts: 517
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:18 pm

RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:38 am



Quoting Acheron (Reply 37):
Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 32):

Anyway, the Gripen remains a dark horse here and could very well spring a surprise.

It could very well be indeed

I agree I wouldn't discard the gripen its also a reasonable aircraft for them.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 37):
Or maybe the Su-35 its the better plane with more chances of winning, which is not surprising considering that both aircrafts are in different categories

I never said the SU-35 was a bad aircraft and yes I know the difference between them and a MIG-35. I just cant see why these small countries insist on purchasing and wasting money on such large and expensive fighters when they dont need them.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 37):
I think Putin can't complain much considering that after years of trying getting into the LatAm market en masse, Chavez and the veto offered them a great oportunity of doing so. An example of this is that tradionally pro-western armed forces such as Chile, were going to purchase Mi-17's but alas, politics(and russophobia) got in the way

I think your wrong on this, your putt way too much faith on the russians being nice...Very huge mistake. At least the US is open about it, you make us mad and you get no airplane parts.
 
F27Friendship
Posts: 1098
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:45 pm

RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:32 pm



Quoting Acheron (Reply 37):
They'd have to pay Jordan

I'm not sure, but wouldn't that be the UAE (which got new block 60's) since Jordan bought our used F-16A/B'sMLU?

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 38):
I just cant see why these small countries insist on purchasing and wasting money on such large and expensive fighters when they dont need them.

dude! Brazil is HUGE!

http://library.thinkquest.org/06aug/00313/north%20and%20south%20america.jpg

BTW< do others also have troubles uploading pics to A.net?
 
Devilfish
Posts: 5182
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:55 am



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 35):
Any guesses on the helicopters? Any knowledge of their cost?

Well, the Indian deal last year for 80 Mi-17s was worth $660M.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...licopter-manufacturers-review.html

Quoting Acheron (Reply 37):

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 32):

Iran?.....

Nope.

Do I take it that silence on the quote previous to this means the FAV is now getting Su-35BMs instead of the Su-30MK2?

Quoting Acheron (Reply 37):
Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 34):
But Brazil is far more concerned about neighbouring Venezuela's rapid purchase of large amounts of defence equipment, including fixed-wing aircraft and helicopters.

Bollocks.

Flightglobal is not alone in its opinion.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...e-arms-exports-to-venezuela-04199/

Russia Looks to Triple Arms Exports to Venezuela
11-Nov-2007 12:08 |

Quote:
"Brazil's Defesanet reports that Rusia's Rosoboronexport expects to double or triple its defense industry contracts with Venezuela, which currently amount to around $4 billion for 24 SU-30MK fighters, 50 helicopters (Mi-17, Mi-35 Pirana attack, giant Mi-26 transport), 12 Tor-M1 anti-air missile sets, and 100,000 Kalashnikov rifles. Rosoboronexport official Sergei Ladiguin has reportedly referred to additional deals in the works for ships, aircraft & helicopters, missiles, and land forces equipment.

Partly as a response to their neighbor Venezuela's buildup, and partly in response to aging equipment that is falling apart, Venezuela's larger neighbor Brazil recently moved to increase its own annual defense budget from $3.5 billion to $5 billion."
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Devilfish
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:58 pm

"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
baron95
Posts: 1106
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:25 pm



Quoting Acheron (Reply 37):
Because a requirement for the purchase is a level of technology transfer that even the partner nations of the program didn't get, and those who did had a hard time getting it

That is exactly my point. That is a silly requirement. It is reminescent of the Brazilian "Market Reserve for Computers" in the 80s - computers below a mainframe size had to be locally produced - that had devastating effects on Brazilian competitiveness until it was abolish.

What the heck are they going to do with the technology that gets transferred? Nothing. It is like, I'll only drive 1950s cars because I can understand the technology. I won't drive a 2007 car because the mannufacturer will not teach me how the computer controls for engine, ABS, transmission, etc work. That is silly.

The FAB has no air combat capability at this point to detter regional or outside conflicts. If they get some G4 fighters 15 years from now and keep them for 40 years (just because they get some meaningless tech transfer), when some reagional and many international powers will be fielding G5+ fighters (without tech transfer), they'll be in no good shape.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 37):
Well, not all airforces have the budget of the USAF nor the ability to get new planes like their pilots get new underwear. You have to optimize your resources even if that means operating old, payload restricted airplanes. Besides, not so long ago, those planes were still valid systems in a LatAm conflict, that is, until the arrival of Chile's Block 50M/Block 15MLU and Venezuela's Flankers.

That also my point. A LOT of the budget to keep a modern airforce is related to force size NOT aircraft costs. Fielding a second rate 200-fighter airforce costs a lot more than fielding a 50-fighter first rate airforce.

The FAB should go for quality, not quantity. When a F-35 can take on 6 Flankers beyond visual range, I'd rather have 25 F35s and no tech transfer than 150 Flankers and all the tech transfer in the world.
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Devilfish
Posts: 5182
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:28 pm



Quoting Baron95 (Reply 36):
I mean the way they take so long to make a decision, F35 slots will be available. The price is right and they'll get a true G5 multirole fighter.

Let's see. Assuming the Lightning's price drops to around $80M per copy during slow rate production, they could get 24 frames and still have loose change from their $2.2B budget for ancilliaries.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 36):
get 24xF16-B60 to get up to speed with EASA radars and single-engine tactics with permission to re-sell once they get the F35s - they'd need 48 of those.

Supposing Brazil could feel secure with the Block 60, I see this could be a very expensive and disruptive arrangement for them. However, getting the F-35 need not be that complicated (assuming no export ban) since LockMart builds both, and the FAB could just trade the Falcons in for a nice JSF discount, and let LM worry about onward sale.  Wink Or they could just opt to keep those as replacements for the F-5BRs, Mirage IIIs, and the by then soon retiring Mirage 2000s.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 36):

Station 12 in Rio Grande do Sul, 12 in Rio, 12 in Amazon (north), 12 in Mato Grosso (west). Get 8 tankers and 8 AWACS and they are in business for 40 years.

Considering the budget would cover only half of that, those would be sparsely spread. They already have some ISR assets, though.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 42):

The FAB should go for quality, not quantity. When a F-35 can take on 6 Flankers beyond visual range, I'd rather have 25 F35s and no tech transfer than 150 Flankers and all the tech transfer in the world.

Even granting that optimistic projection, Brazil's expansive territory needing protection means their air force would be stretched to the limit.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Acheron
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:34 pm



Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 38):
I never said the SU-35 was a bad aircraft and yes I know the difference between them and a MIG-35. I just cant see why these small countries insist on purchasing and wasting money on such large and expensive fighters when they dont need them.

Well, what fighter isn't expensive nowadays?. If you want a single engine aircraft, you are limited to the Grippen, F-16 and F-35. All three of them require permission of the US Congress for anything. The rest are big twins.
Besides, Brasil its huge.

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 38):
I think your wrong on this, your putt way too much faith on the russians being nice...Very huge mistake.

Also, the ruskies are getting sweet deals on extraction rights of some Venezuelan oil wells.

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 38):
At least the US is open about it, you make us mad and you get no airplane parts.

In a hypocritical way, yes, in the way that countries that shouldn't been getting american fighters are getting it anyway(Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, imho), and those who should are not(Colombia).

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 39):
I'm not sure, but wouldn't that be the UAE (which got new block 60's) since Jordan bought our used F-16A/B'sMLU?

Sorry, confused them somehow. Must be the flags.  blush 

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 40):
Do I take it that silence on the quote previous to this means the FAV is now getting Su-35BMs instead of the Su-30MK2?

Yes and no. The first orders of Flankers was to reactivate the Group that used to operate the Canberras, and later in its life, T-2D. Theres a second order coming(excercised options) to finally put to rest the Mirage 50EV/DV(this Group will be transfered to a central, relatively unknown base in December).
As for the Su-35BM, the rumor is that the deal was signed already but kept under the radar as much as possible, though it might be announced when the 24th Flanker of the first order arrives, if all that is true, of course. The BM would probably the F-16's replacements.
In the end, we are probably talking of around 72 Flankers, 48 MK2 and 24 BM.

Also a possible lease of russian L-39 since the FAV was too slow to pick up the Yak-130 so they'll have to wait and they are in urgent need of a LIFT aircraft since the old F-5 are no longer flying, except maybe 2 or 3 if lucky.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 40):
Flightglobal is not alone in its opinion.....

Two different things if you ask me. One is blaming solely Venezuela for Brazil's arm purchase and another a bit different is to also include the obsolence of most of Brazil's fighters force, which isn't far from the truth. Either way, it is their right as sovereign and independent nation to arm themselves as they see fit.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 42):
That is exactly my point. That is a silly requirement. It is reminescent of the Brazilian "Market Reserve for Computers" in the 80s - computers below a mainframe size had to be locally produced - that had devastating effects on Brazilian competitiveness until it was abolish.

If you want to achieve a particular level of technological independence, tech transfer is the way to go if you want to able to develop something on your own sooner than later. Cutting corners if you like.

Besides, Embraer is the one that is going to partly manufacture the winning plane and they are no newcomers to the field of aeronautics.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 42):
What the heck are they going to do with the technology that gets transferred? Nothing.

Not being so dependant on the plane's country of origin, being able to freely implement what you have learnt in a locally made design later down the road and to adapt the plane to your own specifications and requirements.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 42):
just because they get some meaningless tech transfer

The level they are asking for is anything but meaningless. And just because it might seem meaningless to you, doesn't mean it is for them.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 42):
Fielding a second rate

And how the Rafale, Grippen, Su-35BM or EF are second rate?

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 42):
When a F-35 can take on 6 Flankers beyond visual range

Can it even carry 6 BVRAAMs?. Besides, most likely than not, the stealth capabilities will be degraded for the export market outside NATO and Allies countries, and were are talking about a plane that it is less stealth than the Raptor as it is.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 42):
'd rather have 25 F35s and no tech transfer than 150 Flankers and all the tech transfer in the world.

Even if you could improve the Flanker to a point where the export F-35 would actually have to really think about it?.
 
baron95
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:09 am



Quoting Acheron (Reply 44):
Not being so dependant on the plane's country of origin, being able to freely implement what you have learnt in a locally made design later down the road and to adapt the plane to your own specifications and requirements.

This is a theoretical advantage - not a real one. Pretty hard to improve on an integrated G5 fighter. Or, as you are saying improve a G4 to match a G5 based simply on the tech transfer package. Building an empanage here or there, being able to service some LRUs buys you nothing.

I like having the F35 with choices of vendors for the main weapons. AMRAAMs or Meteors, same for AtoG. That is your insurance.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 44):
And how the Rafale, Grippen, Su-35BM or EF are second rate?

They are all second rate to the F22 of course, but currently I'd rate the EF as first rate. But the question is will they be first rate 35 years from now - that would be mid-life for them at the FAB. Of course not.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 43):
Brazil's expansive territory needing protection means their air force would be stretched to the limit.

Yes, but it will not be attacked from all sides at once. In a south cone conflict planes move south. In an Andeal conflict they move west, etc. 48 F35s is about the right number.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 44):
Can it even carry 6 BVRAAMs?.

Yes. It can carry 6 AMRAAMs internally and many more externally at the expense of stealth. Also Meteor is being modified to allow 6 internally in the F35.
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wvsuperhornet
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:58 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 44):
Well, what fighter isn't expensive nowadays?. If you want a single engine aircraft, you are limited to the Grippen, F-16 and F-35. All three of them require permission of the US Congress for anything. The rest are big twins.
Besides, Brasil its huge.

Ummm ok with no Viable threats to its security other than its own internal security and gang violence in its cities.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 44):
Also, the ruskies are getting sweet deals on extraction rights of some Venezuelan oil wells.

News to me since Russia has its own oil why would they need to extract from there?

Quoting Acheron (Reply 44):
In a hypocritical way, yes, in the way that countries that shouldn't been getting american fighters are getting it anyway(Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, imho), and those who should are not(Colombia).

Yes you are correct but th Saudi's to my knowledge have purchased the euro-fighter and pakistan is getting a small amount of F-16's.

[Edited 2007-11-15 01:00:29]
 
baron95
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:50 pm



Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 46):
Ummm ok with no Viable threats to its securi

That is not true. Brazil is facing some serious and growing problems of incursions (land and air) in it's amazon reagion.

What happens 15 years from now if 5000 venezuelans making a settlement just accross the border in the amazon reagion to extract gold or copper or whatever and the venezuelan goverment says it will extend protection to them?

Most likely the Brazilian govt would have to airlift troops there. Without air cover or facing a Flanker cap and the new helos on the ground they are toast.

That is just one scenario. Similar things are happening in the border with Bolivia, Colombia (some related to paramilitary drug forces).

The issue is that Brazil has borders with too many countries (I think only Russia hans more) and several are unstable and have been or are controlled by dictatorial goverments. That is not a situation you can not prepare for challenges.

As some of these countries flush with oil money build first rate airforces, you have to react.
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F27Friendship
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:00 pm



Quoting Acheron (Reply 44):
Sorry, confused them somehow. Must be the flags.

no problem  Wink

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 45):
Yes. It can carry 6 AMRAAMs internally and many more externally at the expense of stealth. Also Meteor is being modified to allow 6 internally in the F35.

I'm afraid this is untrue. It has 4 internal hardpoints (so it could carry 4) but I believe it can actually carry only 2 internally, since they don't fall of properly of the other hardpoints or something.

link

Furthermore it can not carry AIM-9 internally, as the seaker needs to have some line of sight (don't know exactly what the reason was). For F-22 they built a kit to deal with that. Untill now F-35 doesn't have that. Furthermore it is still a question Meteor will be integrated with JSF (I do hope so and so does MDMA propbably)
 
Acheron
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RE: Brazilian F-X 2

Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:55 am



Quoting Baron95 (Reply 45):
This is a theoretical advantage - not a real one. Pretty hard to improve on an integrated G5 fighter. Or, as you are saying improve a G4 to match a G5 based simply on the tech transfer package. Building an empanage here or there, being able to service some LRUs buys you nothing.

If you don't have a gigantic budget of 500 trillions of dollars and deep pockets in case that's not enough, it helps to reduce operating costs to manufacture some your own stuff.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 45):
But the question is will they be first rate 35 years from now - that would be mid-life for them at the FAB. Of course not.

If we go by that, then why are countries wasting money and time buying more F16's when they could be buying F-35's?.
I don't think the F-35 will be first rate in 35 years either, when there will probably be a better plane by then. In 35 years I see it in the position the Falcon is currently in.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 45):
Yes. It can carry 6 AMRAAMs internally and many more externally at the expense of stealth. Also Meteor is being modified to allow 6 internally in the F35.

Really?. Judging by the diagrams in F27's link and this picture
http://jsf.mil/images/f35/f35_technology_weapons.jpg
There doesn't seem to be a lot of space to be putting 6 AIM-120(or Meteors for that matter) unless you put double rails where the AtoG weapons should be and then, I think that would cause some issues if you fire them while manouvering.

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 46):
News to me since Russia has its own oil why would they need to extract from there?

If you can make some money with someone else's oil, while you only have to pay for half of the process of extraction and all that, why not?. There must be reason why the russians accept extraction rights as a payment method for their stuff.
Although, admitelly, the russians will accept anything, from meat to grains and other stuff they don't locally produce in large quantities outside oil.

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 46):
Yes you are correct but th Saudi's to my knowledge have purchased the euro-fighter

But as of late they want more F-15's too.

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 46):
pakistan is getting a small amount of F-16's.

24 with options for further 55 is not that small, if you ask me.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 47):
What happens 15 years from now if 5000 venezuelans making a settlement just accross the border in the amazon reagion to extract gold or copper or whatever and the venezuelan goverment says it will extend protection to them?

But thats happening now, although the other way around, brazilians crossing the border to steal gold and diamonds from Venezuela, causing severe enviromental damage in the process. They are called Garimpeiros.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 47):
Colombia (some related to paramilitary drug forces).

Thats has to do mostly with the Colombian goverment leniency to do something about paramilitaries(possible ties with the President have been rumoured) and the fact that sometimes the Colombian army will chase insurgents towards the border and push them to the other side of it so to have the other side deal with the mess for the time being.

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