AirRyan
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Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:47 am

Per Aviation Week's Day Four recap of the Paris Air Show, Syria is going to be acquiring MiG-31E's via Iranian funding and Iran themselves could very well be acquring both MiG-31E's as well as brand new MiG-29M/M2 aircraft via Belarus so the bill of sale will not be listed as Iran being the ultimate end user so as to get around the West's objections.

Reports also state that Iran is close to signing a huge order for 250 Su-30Mk's with Russia's Rosobornoexport (ROE) to replace all their 1970's US combat aircraft which might include licensed production rights to produce their own; this would be the largest single order for the aircraft ever. However, this version includes French Thales avionics and they might not be willing to sell them anything given the current nuclear issue with pretty much everyone else in the world save Russia and China - but I would imagine that would not be a huge deal breaker and they would acquire something comparable to get the deal done.

http://www.aviationweek.com/shownews/

Needless to say where there is smoke there is usually fire and this only reiterates my opinion that Russia is of little friend to the West. I have the utmost respect and actually like the MiG-29 and Su-27/30 quite a lot, but with Putin it's "once KGB, always KGB." Iran with all of these aircraft would go from a second string minor league Air Force to a highly capable and lethal power as soon as they received all the new aircraft and trained their pilots on them (which back when they were trained via US pilots and doctrine were actually fairly good pilots per the 8 year Iran/Iraq War - however would still be of little comparison to US or Israeli pilots, though.)

[Edited 2007-06-22 05:08:54]
 
sovietjet
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:53 am

Business is business....

While I am happy to see such a success for both the Mig-31 and Su-30, it is not going into the right hands...
 
Devilfish
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:24 pm

Does Iran currently operate Russian combat trainers? If so, that could be a clue where some of the undisclosed 82 Yak-130 trainers are headed. A combination that may be of concern.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...214928/new-orders-for-yak-130.html

New orders for Yak-130

Quote:
"The Yak-130 combat trainer has racked up another 82 firm orders to add to the 76 already announced for the Algerian and Russian Air Forces, says Oleg Demchenko, president of Irkut Corp. Although the customers are not being disclosed for the time being, they all come from countries that are currently operating Russian combat trainers, he says."

A previous post in another thread had also indicated the Yak-130 being selected.
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ptrjong
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:02 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 2):
Does Iran currently operate Russian combat trainers?

Such as? The Russians have hardly produced any between the MiG-15UTI and Yak-130.
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:09 am

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 1):
Business is business....

While I am happy to see such a success for both the Mig-31 and Su-30, it is not going into the right hands...

So why are the Russians still doing business with the Iranians? I thought Russia supported scanctions of military equipment to Iran, at the UN. They just didn't support scanctions against the nuke "power plants".
 
jwenting
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:02 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
So why are the Russians still doing business with the Iranians? I thought Russia supported scanctions of military equipment to Iran, at the UN. They just didn't support scanctions against the nuke "power plants".

Between what the Soviets say and what they do there's often a big difference...
Of course they want sanctions against Iran, knowing even France will obey the UN.
It leaves them with an easier market to open up, and create (or so they hope) a new satellite state on their southern border, poised to close down the flow of oil to Japan and most of the flow to Europe and the US whenever Moscow wants to.

Of course the Iranians also know how to double cross others...
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keesje
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:59 am

I think the region can do without 250 Su-30´s..

The SU30MKi has a huge radar, huge warload, range & unsurpassed agility. Previous (non thrust vectoring) MK proved comfortable with F15s. Saudi Arabia, Israel and many others will not allow Iran to get their hands on 250..



Maybe the Persians /Russians think Israel will get F22´s & they want to give a signal..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Dougloid
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Sat Jun 23, 2007 8:48 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 6):
I think the region can do without 250 Su-30´s..

You can take comfort in the fact that even if the Iranians do buy them, they've got to stage, maintain, fly, and fight them as well, and they'll be getting the down market version with the dog dish hubcaps and the cardboard door liners.

So they might well be rather expensive flyover material when Ahmadinejad is doing some hysterical adolescent chest thumping at the next Revolution Day parade, look good on the recruiting posters and all, but having a capability and being able to execute on it are two entirely different things.
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MCIGuy
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:36 am

On one hand I'm not worried because as capable as these aircraft are, and they are capable, they are no match for a true 5th generation jet fighter. Raptors and dare I say, Lightnings would have a field day. On the other hand, I agree that this is just more evidence that the Soviets, er, Russians, are no friends of ours.  Wink
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keesje
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Sun Jun 24, 2007 6:22 am

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 8):
they are no match for a true 5th generation jet fighter. Raptors and dare I say, Lightnings would have a field day.

I think militairy planners in the region are less comfortable then you. Similar aircraft were delivered to India & China but those are considered reasonable states.

The SU-30 huge nose houses an enormous phased array radar. It can can track and fire on a F15 from 100nm.



Apart from that it has a good range and huge war load and budy budy refill packs are available.

I simply fail to see why e.g. a Lightning would have a field day.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
MCIGuy
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:00 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 9):
Apart from that it has a good range and huge war load and budy budy refill packs are available.

I simply fail to see why e.g. a Lightning would have a field day.

Regardless of what you've been told, stealth is a better asset than it's often given credit for. The Raptor's and the Lightning's LO is a generation, even two generations ahead of the F-117 and B-2. It's simple, you can't shoot what you can't see. Not to metention, as soon as the poor bastard in the Sukhoi starts beaming RF around like there's no tomorrow he's going to be in big trouble. Remember, the Raptor and Lightning don't have to turn on their own radars to get a vector and a firing solution, big advantage. The TV Indian SU-30 MKI's cleaned up on our F-15s on excercise, but of course the ROEs wouldn't allow the Eagles to use AAMRAM, a fact that's often left out. I know of one engagement with NO ROEs where one Raptor mopped the floor with eight, count 'em, eight Vipers. The Raptor was guns only by the end and the last Viper driver said the only threat warning he got was a glint of sunlight off the Raptor's skin, right before he died.  Wink
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Devilfish
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:46 am

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 3):

Such as? The Russians have hardly produced any between the MiG-15UTI and Yak-130.

They also have the MiG AT on offer, but so far, it seems none has been ordered yet.....

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Photo © Fyodor Borisov - Russian AviaPhoto Team


http://www.flightglobal.com/articles.../214982/from-russia-with-love.html

Quote:
"and MiG’s trainer series: the MiG-29UB, MiG-29KUB and MiG-AT. Yakovlev has brought its Yak-130, which can be used as either a trainer or as a light combat aircraft."

Anyway, the question was specifically about Iran's operation of (any) Russian combat trainer, although the FI report could (in error) have meant the MiG-29 or Su-25.

However, the IIAF evidently have Russian combat aircraft courtesy of the Iraqis.....

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Quoting Jwenting (Reply 5):
Of course the Iranians also know how to double cross others...

Which leads to this suspicion.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...31s-mig35s-for-1-billion/index.php

Quote:
"The paper adds that this amount raises questions, noting the likelihood that the deal is being financed by Iran as a back-door purchase. ....

In response, Russian authorities have issued non-denial denials.

Russia's Foreign Ministry spokesman Mikhail Kamynin said in a statement that '...all of Russia's deals in the sphere of military-technical cooperation comply with international law and Russia's obligations under various treaties and United Nations resolutions.' Since none of those obligation prohibit sales to Syria, this response is utterly meaningless.

Sergei Chemezov, head of state arms-trading monopoly Rosoboronexport, is quoted as saying that 'Russia has no plans to deliver fighter jets to Syria and Iran.' Of course, a sale of fighter jets only to Syria would comply with this statement - and if the Syrians choose to send them to Iran, that concerns Syria's plans and not Russia's."
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
AirRyan
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:39 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 11):
Which leads to this suspicion.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...31s-mig35s-for-1-billion/index.php

Quote:
"The paper adds that this amount raises questions, noting the likelihood that the deal is being financed by Iran as a back-door purchase. ....

In response, Russian authorities have issued non-denial denials.

Russia's Foreign Ministry spokesman Mikhail Kamynin said in a statement that '...all of Russia's deals in the sphere of military-technical cooperation comply with international law and Russia's obligations under various treaties and United Nations resolutions.' Since none of those obligation prohibit sales to Syria, this response is utterly meaningless.

Sergei Chemezov, head of state arms-trading monopoly Rosoboronexport, is quoted as saying that 'Russia has no plans to deliver fighter jets to Syria and Iran.' Of course, a sale of fighter jets only to Syria would comply with this statement - and if the Syrians choose to send them to Iran, that concerns Syria's plans and not Russia's."

On one hand I'm sort of excited in a perverse sort of way because I really like the Su-30MK's, MiG-29M2's, and really like the dual role capability (training and combat) of the Yak-130, but I often wonder if WWII would not have been better settled had the "Allies" negoitated Russia to the Germans and China to the Japanese?!

Even at a point where Russia were suppossedly allied with the US and the West, Russia literally stole US B-29's that made emergency diversions there while conducting ops against Japan and reverse-engineered 847 Tu-4's which were essentially carbon-copy Boeing B-29's - I still say that Russia owes Boeing Billions for copy-right infringement!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/af/TU-4-MONIN0.jpg/800px-TU-4-MONIN0.jpg

[Edited 2007-06-24 02:41:11]
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:39 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 12):
I often wonder if WWII would not have been better settled had the "Allies" negoitated Russia to the Germans and China to the Japanese?!

What a scandalous, perverse remark... Russia was largely what Germany was fighting for, and China was largely wat Japan was fighting for... so you're saying the Western Allies should not have resisted the fascists.

I know that Stalin and Mao killed millions, but do you think the Russian and Chinese peoples would have been better off under Nazi and Japanese rule? And that America would have been better off? Because the Russians owe Boeing a few bucks?  crazy 

Peter
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
bigjku
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:54 am

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 10):
The TV Indian SU-30 MKI's cleaned up on our F-15s on excercise, but of course the ROEs wouldn't allow the Eagles to use AAMRAM, a fact that's often left out. I know of one engagement with NO ROEs where one Raptor mopped the floor with eight, count 'em, eight Vipers. The Raptor was guns only by the end and the last Viper driver said the only threat warning he got was a glint of sunlight off the Raptor's skin, right before he died. Wink

This cannot be stated enough to Keesje. If I make the rules of engagement so that each side has to use its own radar or visual contact to engage then yes, the F-15, F-22 ect are all vulnerable.

However if I throw a USAF force with an AWACs, tanker support, B-2's, TLAM and F-15's against what the average nation has, ie anyone but Russia basically, then I have a huge advantage. I can force you to sortie when I want to as I am on the offensive. I can see further than you and I can do it without letting you know where my shooters are.

All the fighters in the world are great but call me once you get the full setup going. A few guys in some high performance machines can be quickly overwhelmed by professionals.
 
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STT757
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:52 am

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 14):
However if I throw a USAF force with an AWACs, tanker support, B-2's, TLAM and F-15's against what the average nation has, ie anyone but Russia basically, then I have a huge advantage. I can force you to sortie when I want to as I am on the offensive. I can see further than you and I can do it without letting you know where my shooters are.

And if those Su-30s are over the gulf they are targets for Aegis Destroyers, the Aegis's SM-2 missiles can hit airborne targets 115 miles away.
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AirRyan
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:57 pm

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 13):
What a scandalous, perverse remark... Russia was largely what Germany was fighting for, and China was largely wat Japan was fighting for... so you're saying the Western Allies should not have resisted the fascists.

I know that Stalin and Mao killed millions, but do you think the Russian and Chinese peoples would have been better off under Nazi and Japanese rule? And that America would have been better off? Because the Russians owe Boeing a few bucks?

Peter

In retrospect, yes - but hindsight is always 20/20 and who knows what could have been the other way around. However, consider the impact USSR/Russia has had since WWII, from their involvement in the Korean and Vietnam conflicts let alone the entire Cold War, not to mention arming the entire "indigent" world of everything from assualt rifles to tanks and fighter jets that have literally "armed" the Middle East today as we know it - and than there is China, wow their (negative) mark on the world and it's future is only just beginning (consumption, population, economy, military power and infulence, etc.) As far as Hitler or Stalin is concerned, I don't see how you can rate one any better than the other.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 15):
And if those Su-30s are over the gulf they are targets for Aegis Destroyers, the Aegis's SM-2 missiles can hit airborne targets 115 miles away.

Even with a modern military modernization upgrade by Iran but even more so now and before any such upgrades, all the US would have to do is cross the border calling Iran's bluff and forcing them into a fundamentally conventional military engagement, and the US military would crush any and every piece of military hardware Iran could mobilize. Iran's Navy would be destroyed within days and mostly while in port. The only thing right now that can possibly threaten the might of a modern competent military along the lines of the US Military is unconventional military warfare a.k.a. terrorism - but one can only hide so long before sooner or later paitence is exhausted and everything a la WWII is destroyed in order to accomplish the mission. War isn't supposed to be pretty.
 
sovietjet
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:15 pm

Why is it that everytime a nation purchases new jets it always has to be squared off against the USA? Of course any nation in the world would lose against the USA, be it Iran or Britain or Israel(this is hypothetical of course as the last two are obviously not going to engage the USA). I think for the purpose of LOCAL conflict those Su-30s are a great tool. Name one country in the vicinity of Iran that can counter 250 Su-30s.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 16):
Even with a modern military modernization upgrade by Iran but even more so now and before any such upgrades, all the US would have to do is cross the border calling Iran's bluff and forcing them into a fundamentally conventional military engagement, and the US military would crush any and every piece of military hardware Iran could mobilize. Iran's Navy would be destroyed within days and mostly while in port. The only thing right now that can possibly threaten the might of a modern competent military along the lines of the US Military is unconventional military warfare a.k.a. terrorism - but one can only hide so long before sooner or later paitence is exhausted and everything a la WWII is destroyed in order to accomplish the mission. War isn't supposed to be pretty.

Right...just like how the USA is winning in Iraq right now  Yeah sure.
 
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Sun Jun 24, 2007 4:17 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
So why are the Russians still doing business with the Iranians?

Umm.. Money.. Iran has it, Russia wants it. Russia doesn't care about UN sanctions, they know the UN is just a debating society. Watch out Russia, the UN might pass a resolution condemning your actions.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Sun Jun 24, 2007 7:03 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 16):
In retrospect, yes

Of course we're talking in retrospect.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 16):
However, consider the impact USSR/Russia has had since WWII

Yes, WWII launched the USSR as a superpower, and you may regret that in retrospect, but preferring Nazi Germany and imperialist Japan as superpowers... wow.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 16):
and than there is China, wow their (negative) mark on the world and it's future is only just beginning (consumption, population, economy, military power and infulence, etc.)

Now you're blaming China for having one billion Chinese... Yes, under Japanese rule there might have been less.... Nice.
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
keesje
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:59 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 12):
Even at a point where Russia were suppossedly allied with the US and the West, Russia literally stole US B-29's that made emergency diversions there while conducting ops against Japan and reverse-engineered 847 Tu-4's which were essentially carbon-copy Boeing B-29's - I still say that Russia owes Boeing Billions for copy-right infringement!

I think many here still have the cold war in their heads. Anything the russians make must be inferior or copied  Big grin

If you do a search on this subject you´ll find out the russians did dozens of original designs that even the blindest patriot can not attribute to western design or say they are inferior. Adjust to the new moreobjective reality.

All it takes is the will to cross that road..
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withak
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:46 pm

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 17):
Why is it that everytime a nation purchases new jets it always has to be squared off against the USA? Of course any nation in the world would lose against the USA, be it Iran or Britain or Israel(this is hypothetical of course as the last two are obviously not going to engage the USA). I think for the purpose of LOCAL conflict those Su-30s are a great tool. Name one country in the vicinity of Iran that can counter 250 Su-30s.

As you implied the USA possesses the strongest air force in the world. If you are buying military hardware and have any remote chance of having to face of with the US such as Iran does you would take this fact into account.

If there was a local conflict who would Iran likely to be fighting? Israel. If these two nations were to start fighting what country would likely get involved? The USA.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 20):
I think many here still have the cold war in their heads. Anything the russians make must be inferior or copied

Are you trying to deny that the Tu-4 was a copy of the B-29? No one is denying that the Russians came up with many great, original and unique aircraft all by themselves. The link you provided proved that point (shame the only Ekranoplan shown was the Beriev VVA-14) but to say that the Russians didn't blatantly copy western hardware is a joke. If I remember correctly they also copied British jet engines and attempted to copy the U2.

WithaK
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:07 pm

Quoting WithaK (Reply 21):
Are you trying to deny that the Tu-4 was a copy of the B-29? No one is denying that the Russians came up with many great, original and unique aircraft all by themselves

Some people (not you and probably not AirRyan) ARE still denying that, always coming up with the Tu-4 to prove it.
The Tu-4 was a blatant copy of course, but it is a pretty unique case. It was done on Stalin's orders, Tupolev didn't like it.
Some other aircraft may have been inspired by other aircraft, but adopting ideas happens everywhere all the time.

Quoting WithaK (Reply 21):
they also copied British jet engines

Well, they got a legal license for the Derwent and Nene if that's what you mean.

Quoting WithaK (Reply 21):
and attempted to copy the U2.


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You mean this thing? Try to design a plane that can get up to 71,788 ft and does NOT look remotely like the U-2. Form just follows function. This wasn't even conceived as a recce aircraft, but to shoot down CIA recce balloons.
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
withak
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:08 am

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 22):
Well, they got a legal license for the Derwent and Nene if that's what you mean.

Now, I know I'm quoting Wiki (I know naughty naughty but its late) so it may not be 100% accurate but here it is.

Quote:
By 1946, Soviet designers were finding it impossible to perfect the German-designed HeS-011 axial-flow jet engine, and new airframe designs from Mikoyan were threatening to outstrip development of the jet engines needed to power them. Soviet aviation minister Mikhail Khrunichev and aircraft designer Alexander Sergeyevich Yakovlev suggested to Joseph Stalin that the USSR buy advanced jet engines from the British. Stalin is said to have replied: "What fool will sell us his secrets?"[2] However, he gave his assent to the proposal and Artem Mikoyan, engine designer Vladimir Klimov, and others traveled to the United Kingdom to request the engines. To Stalin's amazement, the British Labour government and its pro-Soviet Minister of Trade, Sir Stafford Cripps, were perfectly willing to provide technical information and a license to manufacture the Rolls-Royce Nene centrifugal-flow jet engine, a move which even Russian sources have mocked. This engine was reverse-engineered and produced as the Soviet Klimov RD-45 jet engine, subsequently incorporated into the MiG-15.

With regards to the U2 copy I only heard this on a documentary once so take with a grain of salt. After a U2 was shot down over Russia the government ordered that what was left of the U2 be reverse engineered. What resulted was heavier than the U2 and far less capable.

I will look into both of these cases further in the morning and try to confirm or disprove what I have written above.

WithaK
 
AirRyan
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:32 am

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 17):
Right...just like how the USA is winning in Iraq right now

The US Military has yet to lose a single military engagement in either Iraq or Afghanistan yet - perhaps the beatnik liberal politicians aren't helping matters any by throwing the efforts in Iraq under the bus for their own personal political gain, but that's another story.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 18):
Russia doesn't care about UN sanctions, they know the UN is just a debating society

And quite adept at it they have become, too sort of a Master Debating Society the UN has become!

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 19):
Yes, WWII launched the USSR as a superpower, and you may regret that in retrospect, but preferring Nazi Germany and imperialist Japan as superpowers... wow.

I'm not asserting one over the other, just hypothesizing as all historians do...

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 22):
Quoting WithaK (Reply 21):
Are you trying to deny that the Tu-4 was a copy of the B-29? No one is denying that the Russians came up with many great, original and unique aircraft all by themselves

Some people (not you and probably not AirRyan) ARE still denying that, always coming up with the Tu-4 to prove it.
The Tu-4 was a blatant copy of course, but it is a pretty unique case. It was done on Stalin's orders, Tupolev didn't like it.
Some other aircraft may have been inspired by other aircraft, but adopting ideas happens everywhere all the time.

I was just trying to point out how when the Soviet Union and the US were alledgedly allied against Germany in WWII the Russians still did what they did with the B-29/Tu-4 so as to show that the Soviets have never really been "allies" with the US; as a former US Marine avionics tech I still beleive Russian avionics pale in comparison to that of the West but there is no doubt that Russia has created on their own accord numerous and signifcant aircraft from the MiG-15/21/29/31 to the Su-27/30/35 just to name a few - I'm a big fan of the Su-30MK for what it's worth.
 
bigjku
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:19 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 24):
The US Military has yet to lose a single military engagement in either Iraq or Afghanistan yet - perhaps the beatnik liberal politicians aren't helping matters any by throwing the efforts in Iraq under the bus for their own personal political gain, but that's another story.

Slightly overstated but on the surface true. The US military could overrun and wipe out the Iranian ability to threaten anyone outside of their borders in fairly short order. Occupying a nation is a whole different matter and necessitates more force than we are yet ready to politically sanction. Don't mistake that for the lack of ability to do so though.
 
AirRyan
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:36 am

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 25):
Quoting AirRyan (Reply 24):
The US Military has yet to lose a single military engagement in either Iraq or Afghanistan yet - perhaps the beatnik liberal politicians aren't helping matters any by throwing the efforts in Iraq under the bus for their own personal political gain, but that's another story.

Slightly overstated but on the surface true. The US military could overrun and wipe out the Iranian ability to threaten anyone outside of their borders in fairly short order. Occupying a nation is a whole different matter and necessitates more force than we are yet ready to politically sanction. Don't mistake that for the lack of ability to do so though.

Exactly, that's all I am trying to convey - we did it in WWII when we thought our lives really depended upon it and let the terrorists and extremists continue to press the US's buttons - sooner or later her patience will expire and those that oppose will no longer be. If the stupid religous zealots leading Iran were just out of the picture, Iran could be such a wonderful ally to the people of the West as their Persian roots actually ally much in common to those of the West.
 
BarfBag
Posts: 2374
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 7:13 am

RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:46 am

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 10):
The TV Indian SU-30 MKI's cleaned up on our F-15s on excercise, but of course the ROEs wouldn't allow the Eagles to use AAMRAM, a fact that's often left out.

The IAF MKIs have never been authorized for active radar ops or DACT exercises against western forces, especially the USAF. It has been consistent IAF policy not to expose the MKI in that manner, both as Indian policy, and because that's what the Russians would prefer. The most I recall of its participation in an exercise is limited WVR engagements against SingaporeAF.

The Cope India exercises pitted USAF Eagles against a motley crew of MiG-21 Bisons, Mirage 2000s, MiG-27 and MiG-29 Baaz (Fulcrum) aircraft. A few Su-30Ks were involved in some long joint recce runs, but never the MKIs. The RoEs cut both ways, and a limited DACT exercise is by no means a fullscale operation, nothing like the Red Flag ones. Maybe the USAF didn't expect the level of expertise on the part of IAF that it encountered, but that's another matter.

It remains to be seen how much this policy will change when the IAF-RAF joint exercises at RAF Waddington begin in a few days. They'll very likely still keep the N-011M Bars mostly disengaged. The most the MKI has ever participated in an IAF-USAF exercise is on static display.
 
AirRyan
Topic Author
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:28 am

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 27):
The IAF MKIs have never been authorized for active radar ops or DACT exercises against western forces, especially the USAF. It has been consistent IAF policy not to expose the MKI in that manner, both as Indian policy, and because that's what the Russians would prefer. The most I recall of its participation in an exercise is limited WVR engagements against SingaporeAF.

The Cope India exercises pitted USAF Eagles against a motley crew of MiG-21 Bisons, Mirage 2000s, MiG-27 and MiG-29 Baaz (Fulcrum) aircraft. A few Su-30Ks were involved in some long joint recce runs, but never the MKIs. The RoEs cut both ways, and a limited DACT exercise is by no means a fullscale operation, nothing like the Red Flag ones. Maybe the USAF didn't expect the level of expertise on the part of IAF that it encountered, but that's another matter.

It remains to be seen how much this policy will change when the IAF-RAF joint exercises at RAF Waddington begin in a few days. They'll very likely still keep the N-011M Bars mostly disengaged. The most the MKI has ever participated in an IAF-USAF exercise is on static display.

The rumors I always heard were that for the most part the USAF was simply trying to build a case for as many F-22's as they could get Congress to approve; if the match was simply a "friendly" than you usually wouldn't bring your entire playbook...
 
Dougloid
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:40 pm

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 8):
On the other hand, I agree that this is just more evidence that the Soviets, er, Russians, are no friends of ours.

I dunno, I'm just not too worried about the Iranians. For all of Mr. Ahmineedashavebad's chest thumping, the measure of his military prowess and ability to bring off some real duking is not great. Taking hostages and show trials is more their speed.

I figure the Russians aren't going to do much of anything that buggers their chances up elsewhere. They need the rest of the world more than they need Iran, and Iran does not have anything they need except cash.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 20):
I think many here still have the cold war in their heads. Anything the russians make must be inferior or copied

If you do a search on this subject you´ll find out the russians did dozens of original designs that even the blindest patriot can not attribute to western design or say they are inferior. Adjust to the new moreobjective reality.

True, but perhaps as you observed concerning airlines and what they're likely to purchase, more often than not the mission defines the aircraft and not the other way around. That also holds true concerning design and manufacture. Russian aircraft have always been somewhat heavier than their western counterparts, but rugged and able to operate from forward areas until it's time to send them back to a rear area for maintenance or repair. They're relatively uncomplicated and don't give the pilot any more than he or she needs to get the mission done.

On the other hand, because the USSR did not scrupulously observe the niceties of intellectual property laws, stuff was analyzed and what was learned from it was incorporated into their designs. I knew a guy who was a tech rep for GE and Ariana had one DC10 and one spare CF6 in Kabul. When the Russians came in to Afghanistan, the first thing they did was crate that engine up and send it back to Russia.

On the other hand when a MiG25 ended up in Japan, it was returned to the Soviets in crates and boxes after a disassembly and study. A guy I knew was part of that effort and he said the avionics used a fair amount of vacuum tubes-which is not necessarily a bad thing if you have a nice big generator handy. They also used steel in a lot of places rather than titanium. It was heavier but just as strong.

One of the bigger problems with running Russian equipment is nonexistent to indifferent product support.

It's all part of competitive intelligence gathering.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
MCIGuy
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:58 am

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 27):
Maybe the USAF didn't expect the level of expertise on the part of IAF that it encountered, but that's another matter.

Or could it be that the Eagle drivers were flying 30 year-old equipment? The USAF (and IDFAF) pilots are the most professional in the world, I don't think they underestimated anything. How many completely lopsided conflicts does there have to be where "the best" Russian equipment is quickly overwhelmed by the Wests? And this is when none of our 5th generation capabilities had yet been deployed. The "pucker factor" alone makes going up against the USAF a precarious matter.  Smile
Airliners.net Moderator Team
 
keesje
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:51 am

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 30):
How many completely lopsided conflicts does there have to be where "the best" Russian equipment is quickly overwhelmed by the Wests?

I don´t think there have been many anyway during the last 25 yrs. The Russian like the west always made sure to not deliver "the best" equipment outside the Warsaw pact. Many aircraft / weapon systems didn´t get exported at all or with inferior jaybird like radars. Training of the air forces involved was also limited..

With the newer generation systems it seem different and the russians are exporting more aggresively. Eg the mig29 that fell into nato hands in the early 90ties were a wake-up call with regards to helm mounted visors and the accompanying missiles. western hmv and sidewinder-x were an immediate result.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
sean1234
Posts: 401
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:43 am

What do guys think about the Russian S-400 SAMs? A good deployment of these could easily destroy an AWACS group.
 
MCIGuy
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:41 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 31):
With the newer generation systems it seem different and the russians are exporting more aggresively. Eg the mig29 that fell into nato hands in the early 90ties were a wake-up call with regards to helm mounted visors and the accompanying missiles. western hmv and sidewinder-x were an immediate result.

We knew all about the rudimentary HMD's in the MiG-29. Hell, it was used in a video game in 1991. BTW, the AIM-9Xray is a direct result of the F-22 program, not any percieved threat from the East. The goal was to equip it with smaller fins so the Raptor can eventually fit two in each shoulder bay. The link the to the HMDS came later as the F-22 is still not equipped with it. Last time I checked, Sidewinder X was only deployed on F-18s and F-15s. I think the plan is to first use the AIM-9X/HMDS combination on the F-35 and then retrofit the Raptor fleet with them. That was the last I heard anyway.  

[Edited 2007-06-27 06:42:38]
Airliners.net Moderator Team
 
mgoran
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:29 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 24):
The US Military has yet to lose a single military engagement in either Iraq or Afghanistan yet - perhaps the beatnik liberal politicians aren't helping matters any by throwing the efforts in Iraq under the bus for their own personal political gain, but that's another story.

In Vietnam US Army won all or almost all battles and look how that ended.

Problem in Vietnam was and problem in Iraq is that US government does not know what it wants and their soldier do not know anything about the country they are trying to occupy.

Let me modify that... some individuals in US government know what they want (like Cheney and his company Haliburton), they want the war to continue as long as it is possible so that a lot of private companies can earn billions of dollars of tax payers money. If a few thousand poor Americans (soldiers) dies, few hundred thousand Iraqis dies, a country is destroyed... well that is not all that important to the rich people.

Same goes for Iran... it is nice to have a spare enemy that you can use to scare your own people. It is easier to win elections like that and get money for defense budget which is being spent by the truckloads. Iran is not all that interested in waging war with anyone and they have not shown much interest in it but US is talking military intervention all the time.
 
wingman
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:57 pm

The beatnik press is misleading the American public for their own political gain? Dude, you must be on fascist crack. We have 157,000 troops in Iraq consuming something like $5B per month in taxpayer funds and we cannot even control the Green Zone, a pathetic little 5 square miles of a single city. I think it's quite obvious we lost this war the day our Jackass Retard in Chief landed that plane on on that carrier and declared "heh heh, deemahcracee, heh heh". Get real man.
 
Dougloid
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:24 am

Quoting Mgoran (Reply 34):
Problem in Vietnam was and problem in Iraq is that US government does not know what it wants and their soldier do not know anything about the country they are trying to occupy.

I do not think there's a direct analogy and I do not believe it matters what, if anything, the soldiers know about the place they fight in.

In VietNam we were fighting a sovereign state and its proxy in the south who were embarked on a successful effort to reunify their country. In many respects it was a hot chapter of the cold war. That effort was premised on the so called and largely discredited domino theory. I think the thinking was an analogy to Korea-which was, in fact, a successful exercise of foreign policy and military assistance that stopped the Russians and Chinese and their client Kim Il Sung cold and ultimately drove them back to the 38th parallel.

On the other hand, in Iraq we ripped the top off of a pressure cooker of Saddam's making without any clear idea of what we were going to do to manage the mess. Had there been perfect understanding and 20/20 foresight, it might well be that it never would have happened. Well, the mess is there and it's not going away any time soon.

In neither of these cases does it really matter what US soldiers know or don't know about the country they fight in, except as it concerns their interaction with the local population.

One might suppose that if US soldiers were culturally sensitive and all spoke Arabic and didn't serve BLTs in the mess hal it might make a difference on the local level, but as far as being the sole determinant of success or failure? I don't see it.
In addition, one thing that IS a success is that there is now a defacto independent Kurdistan and I'm quite sure that will end up being the US base of operations in the region in the future. Another success is that the long repressed and britalized Shi'a of Iraq have now found their voice. It may not be good for us but it's a plus for them.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
DeltaGuy
Posts: 3965
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:42 am

Quoting Wingman (Reply 35):
I think it's quite obvious we lost this war the day our Jackass Retard in Chief landed that plane on on that carrier and declared "heh heh, deemahcracee, heh heh". Get real man.

Why don't you keep your damned opinions to yourself on this board- the thread was in regards to Iran and their aquisition of new aircraft...not a spin zone for your trash talk to fester.

Anyways..back on topic.

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
wingman
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:11 am

But you're fine with the inane comments about the press being responsible for Iraq and discussion of WWII and Vietnam? This board is all about opnions so I'd suggest you remove yourself if you can't handle them.
 
mgoran
Posts: 17
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:24 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 37):

Why don't you keep your damned opinions to yourself on this board- the thread was in regards to Iran and their acquisition of new aircraft...not a spin zone for your trash talk to fester.

He he imagine the potential for a fight in a Persian Gulf when here people are fighting, fortunately with words only.

I don't think Iran is going to buy anything or at least they should invest that money in building refineries. As one of the largest crude oil exporters Iran doesn't have enough refineries to produce fuel for it's own consumption so today they started rationing gasoline for cars. Every car can be fueled by 100 liters of petrol a month (that would be 26,5 US gallons if I converted correctly).
 
deltadc9
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Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:00 pm

RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:43 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 6):
Maybe the Persians /Russians think Israel will get F22´s & they want to give a signal..

There has been nnothing but the opposite impression coming out of DC for over a decade.

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 22):
but it is a pretty unique case

Except for the atom bomb design they stole in the 50s, among other things.

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 25):
Occupying a nation is a whole different matter and necessitates more force than we are yet ready to politically sanction

Exactly, Iraq is not a war anymore, it is an occupation with the most severly restricted rules of engagement in the history of warfare, except for UN peacekeepers.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
mgoran
Posts: 17
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:57 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 36):
I do not think there's a direct analogy and I do not believe it matters what, if anything, the soldiers know about the place they fight in.

Soldiers maybe do not have to know about the place where they are fighting but they sure must know the culture and people in the place they are trying to occupy. Guerilla movements are feeding on stupid actions made by occupying forces.
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:27 pm

Quoting Mgoran (Reply 41):
Soldiers maybe do not have to know about the place where they are fighting but they sure must know the culture and people in the place they are trying to occupy. Guerilla movements are feeding on stupid actions made by occupying forces.

So you say. What about it is of benefit? Let's talk about specifics.

What, for example, did the Soviets know about European culture and custom when they occupied much of Europe after 1945? Did any of that amount to a fart in a windstorm?

Since you're talking about guerrilla movements and occupying forces that know bupkis, tell me about the Sendero Luminoso in Peru....and the fighting in Colombia? Guerrilla movements and native born governments and soldiers all.

How does your theory explain the Algerian war for independence?

The answer is decidedly no, the connection is unproven. It is not a sine qua non as you suggest.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
mgoran
Posts: 17
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:58 pm

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 42):
The answer is decidedly no, the connection is unproven. It is not a sine qua non as you suggest.

What about Malaya and the creation of British tactics "war for the hearts and minds"?

Algeria was a colony that did not wish to be a colony anymore and French could not do anything about it. Eastern Europe wanted to be liberated of the Nazis and you are gravely mistaken if you think that there was no resistance to the Soviets but they quickly learned that occupation will be more effective if they do it via local communist parties. Most of the Eastern Europe elected it's governments after the WWII.

US general Wiliam Yarborourgh in the aftermath of the WWII devised a special training for the special troops to teach them a language and a culture of the state in which they are operating. He was motivated by the criminal acts of the Allied soldiers who were occupying Germany. Those criminal acts were making peace very difficult. This is why today US and British special forces learn languages, usually have college degrees and learn about cultures of the countries in which they will conduct operations. It seems that those lessons were forgotten in Iraq.

Remember that Iraq wanted to be liberated of Saddam's rule and that US and UK armies had a good start there. They ruined their reputation by acting dumb in the occupation phase. Destroying the police and army and not knowing the conflict between Sunnis and Shias, building a military base in old town of Babylon and destroying mosques also did not help. And that kind of behavior is being fought with knowledge. I know that educating every soldier is not possible, but educating commanders is necessary.

But we have deviated from the topic here.

The topic is Iran's new fighters which I do not think they will buy at least not in the numbers talked about here.
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:16 am

Quoting Wingman (Reply 38):
But you're fine with the inane comments about the press being responsible for Iraq and discussion of WWII and Vietnam? This board is all about opnions so I'd suggest you remove yourself if you can't handle them.

I'm not fine with it, but your comment was way left field.

The topic was regarding Iran's military capability...not your extreme left-wing status.

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
Dougloid
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:32 am

Quoting Mgoran (Reply 43):
US general Wiliam Yarborourgh in the aftermath of the WWII devised a special training for the special troops to teach them a language and a culture of the state in which they are operating. He was motivated by the criminal acts of the Allied soldiers who were occupying Germany. Those criminal acts were making peace very difficult. This is why today US and British special forces learn languages, usually have college degrees and learn about cultures of the countries in which they will conduct operations. It seems that those lessons were forgotten in Iraq.

Where do you see any reference to "criminal acts of Allied soldiers" in Europe in this biography or how Yarborough was involved in any educational efforts because he was "motivated by the criminal acts of the Allied soldiers occupying Germany?"

Nonsense, sir.

If anyone deserved stern and severe punishment for criminal acts on European territory and elsewhere, it was the people who started that goddamn senseless war on the rest of Europe and anyone else who 'doesn't look like us" and the jackals who fed on the scraps from their table.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_P._Yarborough

 talktothehand   talktothehand   talktothehand 
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
olle
Posts: 511
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:33 pm

Russia sees this as a way to get more power in the regsion.

This is pretty obvious. But it might take time while they also need to be nice special with their biggest customer of Oil and Gas EU.

Russia started the WWII together with Germany by attacking Finland, Baltic states and Poland. They got on board first when Nazi Germany attacked.


The regions that was occupied by west allied trops still talks nice about them. If Russia / Sovjet had been nicer they might had had a better relation ship with eastern europe today. Now they have a very embarrasing moment each year with cuntries discussing if they were liberated or reoccupied in 1944-1945.

USA in the Baltic states considered occupation was something for less battle prepared troops - Europeans. Now it seams like the UK troops do a little bit better in Iraq then the US.
 
AirRyan
Topic Author
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:11 am

Quoting Mgoran (Reply 34):
Problem in Vietnam was and problem in Iraq is that US government does not know what it wants and their soldier do not know anything about the country they are trying to occupy.



Quoting Mgoran (Reply 34):
(like Cheney and his company Haliburton),

Cheney severed all of his financial ties with the company before he ran with Bush as the VP and once again, Haliburton was the only company who could satisfy all of the requirements of the contract - that is why they ended up being the only bidder...

Quoting Mgoran (Reply 34):
Same goes for Iran... it is nice to have a spare enemy that you can use to scare your own people.

Spare enemy? Iran has been a thorn in the West's side since the Shah was ousted in 1979....

Quoting Wingman (Reply 35):
The beatnik press is misleading the American public for their own political gain? Dude, you must be on fascist crack. We have 157,000 troops in Iraq consuming something like $5B per month in taxpayer funds and we cannot even control the Green Zone, a pathetic little 5 square miles of a single city. I think it's quite obvious we lost this war the day our Jackass Retard in Chief landed that plane on on that carrier and declared "heh heh, deemahcracee, heh heh". Get real man.

The "War" in Iraq was indeed won in a matter of weeks, but the political reconstruction of the country is ongoing - don't berate the efforts of the coalition military in Iraq by confusing and misunderstanding their mission - the coalition militaries won the war in weeks but the political reconusttruction is what they are now doing there - show me an organized OPFOR and it will be deleted.

Quoting Olle (Reply 46):
USA in the Baltic states considered occupation was something for less battle prepared troops - Europeans. Now it seams like the UK troops do a little bit better in Iraq then the US.

It is fact that the British were given AO's agreed by all to be less hazordaus than where the US military forces have been assigned.
 
Devilfish
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:53 pm

An A.Net b-day present for AirRyan.  birthday  After more than a year, the report in Reply 11 is updated with some sort of confirmation.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...35s-for-1-billion-03391/#more-3391

Quote:
"March 29/09: The Jerusalem Post reports that Pentagon Defense Intelligence Agency Lt.-Gen. Michael D. Maples provided official confirmation of the sale in his testimony 'annual threat assessment' to the US Senate Armed Services Committee:

'With regard to its external defense, Syria’s military remains in a defensive posture and inferior to Israel’s forces, but it is upgrading its missile, rocket, antitank, aircraft and air defense inventories…. Recent Syrian contracts with Russia for future delivery include new MiG-31 and MiG-29M/M2 fighter aircraft.'

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_MiG-31E_lg.jpg
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_MiG-31E_lg.jpg

The Aircraft

The MiG-31E is reportedly offered on a trade-in basis for countries that have the MiG-25 Foxbat interceptor, a list that currently includes only Syria, Libya, and Kazakhstan.

[.....]

Aeronautics.RU described the MiG-31E variant as:

'Export version of basic Type 01. Prototype (‘903’) first noted 1997; simplified systems, no active jammer, downgraded IFF, radar and DASS. Offered to China, India and other countries.'

These planes could be of some use to Syria in an air defense role. Syria’s air force, which was once reliably on the cutting edge of technology during its Cold War years as a Soviet proxy, has not modernized in over a decade.

[.....]

The MiG-29M/M2 uses welded lithium-aluminum alloys to save weight, while adding extra fuel in a new aircraft “spine” down the back and in the spaces once occupied by the auxiliary air intakes. This is coupled with improved engines, and redesigned horizontal tailplanes that improve maneuvering performance. A new radar and avionics package improves air-air performance, broadens its available arsenal, and adds ground-attack capability, making it a true multi-role aircraft.
"

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Dmitriy Pichugin - Russian AviaPhoto Team
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Vala - Russian AviaPhoto Team

"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's

Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:17 pm

Russia may be hoping for more control over the region but the middle east has so far resisted control from outside. Russia should be more concerned that Iran is arming up to compete with Russia. Historically, Persia has never been anybody's lapdog.
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