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STT757
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Marine Corps, AH-1 Vs AH-64,

Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:50 pm

I remember a AH-64 book I had in the Eighties had a section about a possible Navalized AH-64, which leads me to the obvious question.

Why keep upgrading the AH-1, why not AH-64 longbows. I imagine that the Long Bow radar could be modified to also track targets on land or sea. The AH-64 Long Bow seems to be a better choice than to keep upgrading the Cobra.

Same question with the UH-1, why not the UH-60?
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deskflier
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RE: Marine Corps, AH-1 Vs AH-64,

Fri Jun 29, 2007 4:07 pm

I don't have any special inside info on this, but as I recall the AH-64 is somewhat of a hangar queen compared to the AH-1. It became painfully (to the Army) obvious during the build-up to Desert Storm. The Marines kept exercising while the Army attack choppers were mainly being repaired, serviced or whatever.
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LongbowPilot
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RE: Marine Corps, AH-1 Vs AH-64,

Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:10 am

WOW, and the misinformation continues to flow in the internet.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Marine Corps, AH-1 Vs AH-64,

Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:41 am

Quoting Deskflier (Reply 1):
I don't have any special inside info on this, but as I recall the AH-64 is somewhat of a hangar queen compared to the AH-1. It became painfully (to the Army) obvious during the build-up to Desert Storm. The Marines kept exercising while the Army attack choppers were mainly being repaired, serviced or whatever.

Actually in Desert Storm, the serviceability rate was ~90%.

The rumors pretty much come from two things: when they were being introduced during the 1980s, there were teething problems and many worried that the helicopter would not perform as advertised... which was disproved in the desert of Kuwait/Iraq in 1991.

And their haphazard deployment to Kosovo in the late 90s. The Army was very anxious to throw the aircraft into the battle, but it was very poorly executed.

This is no different than what other aircraft experience during their lifetimes. Other than this, the AH-64 is a great helicopter, and is essential in Iraq. The AH-64 is going to be around for years to come, and we're even upgrading the Longbow to Block III.

Quoting LongbowPilot (Reply 2):
WOW, and the misinformation continues to flow in the internet.

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Quoting STT757 (Thread starter):
I remember a AH-64 book I had in the Eighties had a section about a possible Navalized AH-64, which leads me to the obvious question.

Why keep upgrading the AH-1, why not AH-64 longbows. I imagine that the Long Bow radar could be modified to also track targets on land or sea. The AH-64 Long Bow seems to be a better choice than to keep upgrading the Cobra.

Same question with the UH-1, why not the UH-60?

Maybe because Marines can't handle the complexity of those airframes!?  Wink

But seriously, the size of the AH-64 may be to large to base off an LHD. It also sits high, and it costs a lot.

-UH60
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MDorBust
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RE: Marine Corps, AH-1 Vs AH-64,

Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:43 am

We've been down this road a couple of times.

The true answer is that navalizing the Apache would have been a costly PITA because of changes that would have been needed to counter act it's high COG and narrow wheel base. As a solution they considered moving the landing gear to the wingtips... and making them retractable. +complexity and weight. Then someone got the bright idea of removing the cannon system and replacing it with a giant radar.

In the end the proposal was for a heavier, more complex aircraft that could pretty much only fire harpoon missiles.... but could re-fuel in flight.
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JohnM
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RE: Marine Corps, AH-1 Vs AH-64,

Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:08 am

In my experience the AH-64s flew pretty hard in my deployment to Iraq. We flew mostly daytime (UH-60s), but the -64s flew all night long with lots of ships. I'm damn sure of that, every Apache in country made a point to overfly my hooch ALL night long, Always when I had an eary show time. But to make them ship friendly could be a big deal as mentioned before. I guess the AH-1 would be better, but when will they show up in numbers?

The second question about the UH-1/ UH-60 choice. I love hueys, but the guy who went with the decision to upgrade the UH-1 over the UH-60 made a huge mistake. The UH-60s would have been in the fleet what, a decade ago? The extra money blown by the long overdue upgrade program is another issue. I think history has shown what a damn fine aircraft the Blackhawk is. MAYBE the upgraded UH-1 will somewhat match the Blackhawk performance, but I doubt it. The USMC could be ordering the UH-60M now, or stick with the outstanding L model Blackhawk. Every service has made mistakes about aircraft buys, but this is choice was easy, and it got screwed up.
 
LongbowPilot
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RE: Marine Corps, AH-1 Vs AH-64,

Sun Jul 01, 2007 6:43 pm

Quoting STT757 (Thread starter):
I remember a AH-64 book I had in the Eighties had a section about a possible Navalized AH-64, which leads me to the obvious question.

It is not uncommon for a company to make variants of a model during design. I mean why just sell to one service, when you might beable to get another one to hack off on it.
 
HanginOut
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RE: Marine Corps, AH-1 Vs AH-64,

Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:08 am

My understanding is that there are a fair number of common parts between the AH-1 and UH-1. Thus, the USMC decided to keep these two helicopters (for their commonality) rather than buying AH-64s or UH-60s, which would require an extra supply chain. (Mind you the UH-60 supply chain would be fairly easy for the USMC to set up as the USN already operates this craft, but the AH-64 would require a totally new supply chain.) After all, isn't commonality cited by airlines (and anetters) when making their aircraft purchases.

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