cancidas
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Boeing Wedgetail

Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:48 pm


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why no winglets on this airplane? i would think that since the mission of this airplane includes staying aloft for hours that winglets would be beneficial...
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Ozair
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RE: Boeing Wedgetail

Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:28 pm

Quoting Cancidas (Thread starter):
why no winglets on this airplane?

If you view the picture larger you can see the sensors located on the wingtips. Due to their presence the raked wingtip or blended wingtip is not installed.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Boeing Wedgetail

Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:50 pm

Notice the additional generator buldges on each side of the engine nacelles, too?

Has the first Wedgetail been delivered yet to the RAAF? I know it was late and Boeing paid a contract penelty.
 
dl021
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RE: Boeing Wedgetail

Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:48 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):
Has the first Wedgetail been delivered yet to the RAAF? I know it was late and Boeing paid a contract penelty.

They're talking about delays until 2010. THere's some issues with software integration and such.
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cancidas
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RE: Boeing Wedgetail

Thu Jul 05, 2007 8:14 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 1):
If you view the picture larger you can see the sensors located on the wingtips. Due to their presence the raked wingtip or blended wingtip is not installed.

i saw that, but couldn't those be mounted on the outside of the winglets?
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
Ozair
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RE: Boeing Wedgetail

Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:51 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 3):
They're talking about delays until 2010. There's some issues with software integration and such.

There is still talk of a 2009 date but realistically your right it won't be until 2010 that we actually start using the aircraft.

Quoting Cancidas (Reply 4):
i saw that, but couldn't those be mounted on the outside of the winglets?

The raked wingtips would be too fragile to hold the sensor and I imagine (my speculation only) the blended tip would degrade the sensor coverage of the radar, not really worth it for an extra 1/2 hour of station time when the aircraft can be refuelled by our KC-30s.
 
L-188
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RE: Boeing Wedgetail

Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:56 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 5):
The raked wingtips would be too fragile to hold the sensor and I imagine (my speculation only) the blended tip would degrade the sensor coverage of the radar

That would be my guess also. You would end up with a couple of dead spots in the radar coverage.
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dl021
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RE: Boeing Wedgetail

Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:11 pm

Quoting Ozair (Reply 5):
There is still talk of a 2009 date but realistically your right it won't be until 2010 that we actually start using the aircraft.

I hope to God it works well then. I can't see why every time Australia orders a piece of equipment there are so many software issues. The subs, the helos, the ships, and now these things. Once they're there Australia will have eyes they only dreamed of having available 24/7.........it'll be an awesome airplane.
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HanginOut
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RE: Boeing Wedgetail

Fri Jul 06, 2007 5:46 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 7):
I hope to God it works well then. I can't see why every time Australia orders a piece of equipment there are so many software issues. The subs, the helos, the ships, and now these things.

That's probably because they have to change the software to understand Australian English.
 wink   duck 

But seriously (and to all of you Australians, I'm just joking - I love Australia and Australians and hope to be able to visit your incredible country one day), I've noticed the same thing and have to wonder what the hell is going on for the Aussies to always have these problems?! Maybe one of our Australian anetters can shed some light.
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MDorBust
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RE: Boeing Wedgetail

Fri Jul 06, 2007 5:56 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 7):
I can't see why every time Australia orders a piece of equipment there are so many software issues.

I've heard that most of the issues have to deal with integrating the barbie and the cold storage for the prawns.  duck 
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dl021
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RE: Boeing Wedgetail

Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:52 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 9):
I've heard that most of the issues have to deal with integrating the barbie and the cold storage for the prawns.



Quoting HanginOut (Reply 8):
That's probably because they have to change the software to understand Australian English.

You guys are gonna be in trouble.......Crocodile Dundee is a lurker on these threads.....  Wink
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Ozair
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RE: Boeing Wedgetail

Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:16 am

Quoting HanginOut (Reply 8):
That's probably because they have to change the software to understand Australian English.



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 9):
I've heard that most of the issues have to deal with integrating the barbie and the cold storage for the prawns.

Lol, yes well said and well deserved except you forgot the beer!

Quoting HanginOut (Reply 8):
I've noticed the same thing and have to wonder what the hell is going on for the Aussies to always have these problems?!

With regards to our recent purchases, the C-17 has been the only smooth acquisition. The issue of australianising our equipment is all very well and good but falls down when the contractor or the DMO (Defence Material Organisation) aren't honest with each other regarding the potential or required outcomes and the risk involved.

This fact was an influence in the recent F-100 purchase over the evolved DDG-51. The procurement process is now based around an existing design, for example the F-100, compared to an evolved design, the DDG-51, both having their strengths and weaknesses. The evolved design costs more, arrive later, will be more capable and adaptive but comes at the price of technological and design uncertainty. (For your info we chose the F-100 so it will be interesting to follow the program and see if the existing design worked)

I think we have chosen the evolved design a few too many times and been subsequently burnt by the design time, budget and risk being more than we expected.

Unfortunately we are a small Air Force trying to do a lot of things and leverage the most out of our small budget, hence these things happen as we endeavour to secure the most capable platform we can.
 
Devilfish
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RE: Boeing Wedgetail

Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:10 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 11):
hence these things happen

As exemplified by this other project.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...wH8AAAEAAEOGfHYAAAAI&modele=jdc_34

Quote:
"The Defence Materiel Organisation has exercised its rights under the Air 87 Tiger Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (ARH) acquisition contract and stopped payment to Australian Aerospace on 1 June 2007 as the contracted milestone for ARH Initial Operational Capability has not been achieved.

Initial Operational Capability for the Tiger ARH Project is defined as the ability to conduct collective training. Delays in the Franco/German Tiger program have negatively impacted the development of the simulators and establishment of the Australian based training needed to achieve this milestone."
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
HanginOut
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RE: Boeing Wedgetail

Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:13 pm

Quoting Ozair (Reply 11):
Unfortunately we are a small Air Force trying to do a lot of things and leverage the most out of our small budget, hence these things happen as we endeavour to secure the most capable platform we can.

Trust me, this is a problem too often faced by Air Command, aka the Royal Canadian Air Force and the rest of the CF as well.
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dl021
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RE: Boeing Wedgetail

Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:42 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 12):
Quote:
"The Defence Materiel Organisation has exercised its rights under the Air 87 Tiger Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (ARH) acquisition contract and stopped payment to Australian Aerospace on 1 June 2007 as the contracted milestone for ARH Initial Operational Capability has not been achieved.

Initial Operational Capability for the Tiger ARH Project is defined as the ability to conduct collective training. Delays in the Franco/German Tiger program have negatively impacted the development of the simulators and establishment of the Australian based training needed to achieve this milestone."

AAARRRGGHHHH!!!! I was sort of hoping the Australians would be able to ground the old gunships and replace them with the new ones. Hey...they can always buy some Bell AH-1Zs.....they're coming off the line new. I think they're a good bit less than a new AH-64D.
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checksixx
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RE: Boeing Wedgetail

Sat Jul 07, 2007 4:16 am

Why not just buy some old AH-64A's and have them converted to 'D's'? Not sure how much the conversion would cost or entail though.
 
HanginOut
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RE: Boeing Wedgetail

Sat Jul 07, 2007 4:26 am

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 15):
Why not just buy some old AH-64A's and have them converted to 'D's'? Not sure how much the conversion would cost or entail though.

The problem is that there are no old AH-64As just lying around that anyone is willing to part with.
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: Boeing Wedgetail

Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:07 am

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 15):
Why not just buy some old AH-64A's and have them converted to 'D's'? Not sure how much the conversion would cost or entail though.



Quoting HanginOut (Reply 16):
The problem is that there are no old AH-64As just lying around that anyone is willing to part with.

Agreed. If the Army hasn't already flown them into the ground maintenance wise, the A models are almost all being converted to the Longbow. While we're purchasing some brand new Longbows, the majority will be converted A models. Interestingly, when they convert the A to a D, very little of the original aircraft remains - mostly the inner skeleton and frame.

--------------------

Anyway, this wedgetail... where does it rank against the E-3?

-UH60
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dl021
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RE: Boeing Wedgetail

Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:17 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 17):
Anyway, this wedgetail... where does it rank against the E-3?

Dude...it's a smaller version of the E-3 with more modern radar (electronically scanned array called MESA rather than the older rotodome radars). With the ongoing modernization of computers and other electronics the size requirement for such aircraft is significantly reduced. The British are performing JSTARs missions with Global Express jets. Israelis replaced the 707 Phalcon with a G-V.

The wedgetail system is basically the same as the one ordered by the Koreans and Turks. It's got a 200m+ range on it's radar and performs the AEW&C functions.

here's something for you
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/737aewc/
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: Boeing Wedgetail

Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:29 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 18):
Dude...it's a smaller version of the E-3 with more modern radar

Well I know that... I mean if the USAF wants to replace the E-3s, would this be a suitable aircraft to fill our needs? Or is their benefits to having a larger aircraft such as the 767?

Or would it be better to buy the E-767? Just curious.

-UH60
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dl021
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RE: Boeing Wedgetail

Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:35 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 19):
Well I know that... I mean if the USAF wants to replace the E-3s, would this be a suitable aircraft to fill our needs? Or is their benefits to having a larger aircraft such as the 767?

We're currently upgrading the E-3 fleet, and the cost-benefit ratio doesn't support replacement of the E-3s. The airframes are paid for, and we've got the engines and spares. They will probably be upgraded to use the CFM engines, but for now they have the same 200 mile+ range and are getting new computers....NATOs will probably be upgraded similarly and they're getting new engines.

Our current E-3s and the Wedgetails will be similarly capable....the Wedgetail advantages are smaller size and costs.

The Japanese AWACs had more advanced radars, but I believe ours got caught up.

On checking...yeah...the Japanese are now playing catchup in the radar upgrade process.

They do have better range and comfort on their widebodys (AWACS-XWB  Wink ) but with refuelling it doesn't matter....and with comfort...it's the Air Farce...who cares? They'll be eating steak tonight.

[Edited 2007-07-06 23:40:21]
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Ozair
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RE: Boeing Wedgetail

Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:14 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 18):
The wedgetail system is basically the same as the one ordered by the Koreans and Turks.

The Wedgetail will be a more capable platform, not to mention the quality of the aircrew.  Wink

Quoting DL021 (Reply 20):
Our current E-3s and the Wedgetails will be similarly capable....the Wedgetail advantages are smaller size and costs.

The real advantage the Wedgetail will have is the MESA. The electronically scanning array comes with all sorts of cool features especially as we upgrade to fighter aircraft similarly equipped...we just need to get them.

The RAAF is in for the biggest upgrade in it's history. In 10 years time the oldest aircraft in our fleet with be the C-130Js. It's going to be a pretty hectic next few years as all our new aircraft and capabilities come online

Quoting DL021 (Reply 20):
They'll be eating steak tonight.

I'm not as keen on mess food although the dessert bar is a great feature.
 
dl021
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RE: Boeing Wedgetail

Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:15 pm

Quoting Ozair (Reply 21):
The Wedgetail will be a more capable platform, not to mention the quality of the aircrew.

I'd have to say that the Koreans will be highly qualified....but it appears that the Aussie ships will have more crew stations than the Korean or Turkish birds.....so there's something extra happening in the Oz birds. Jindalee over the horizon coordination? Additional barbeque chefs....there's gonna be a big modern radar range....  Wink

Quoting Ozair (Reply 21):
The RAAF is in for the biggest upgrade in it's history. In 10 years time the oldest aircraft in our fleet with be the C-130Js. It's going to be a pretty hectic next few years as all our new aircraft and capabilities come online

It's a seriously exciting time for the RAAF....It'll be the most modern force in Oceania for sure, and one of the most modern anywhere. F-35, F/A-18E/F, C-130J, A400, KC-30, C-17 and .... are there any Chipmunks or GAF birds still flying?

Quoting Ozair (Reply 21):
I'm not as keen on mess food although the dessert bar is a great feature.

Bite me flyboy....  Wink
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Stealthz
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RE: Boeing Wedgetail

Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:49 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 22):
It'll be the most modern force in Oceania for sure

Now there is a backhanded compliment!!  Wink

On a $ for $ & per capita basis likely one of the most modern and capable anywhere!
Not being parochial about this.. ask people that know me, I can be pretty critical of the ADF but I hope in a constructive way!
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dl021
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RE: Boeing Wedgetail

Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:19 am

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 23):
On a $ for $ & per capita basis likely one of the most modern and capable anywhere!

I did say that after I made a little fun.

The RAAF is one of the more professional AFs anywhere. Plus....you guys still fly the 'Vaarks....that's enough for me.
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Ozair
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RE: Boeing Wedgetail

Sun Jul 08, 2007 6:37 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 22):
Bite me flyboy....

The only thing I'm flying is a desk. Of course if they gave me the chance I wouldn't say no, doesn't everyone in the Air force want to fly?  Smile

Quoting DL021 (Reply 24):
you guys still fly the 'Vaarks....that's enough for me

Indeed, I'm going to miss them when they're gone.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 22):
F-35, F/A-18E/F, C-130J, A400, KC-30, C-17

I'm not sure yet about the A400, it would fit nicely in between the C-130J and the C-17s but more than likely we will see the C-27J as a Caribou replacement and some replacement C-130Js for the oldest models about 2020. The commonality is just too much to pass up.
 
Devilfish
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RE: Boeing Wedgetail

Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:05 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 25):
but more than likely we will see the C-27J as a Caribou replacement

Speaking of which, what is the latest development on that other project?
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
dl021
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RE: Boeing Wedgetail

Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:17 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 25):
I'm not sure yet about the A400,

Got carried away there for a moment....
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Lt-AWACS
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RE: Boeing Wedgetail

Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:51 pm

The wedgetail isn't even close to a replacement for the E-3. Aside from the fact I spent two years at Tinker training the Aussie (great folks who drink a lot of beer, 24 in one day on Aussie day) AF for the wedgetail I know folks in the program and I know the upgrades for the Block 40 USAF and NATO Mid-term (flown both).
The wedgetail is however an great platform and the Aussie version will be great but it will have much less battle management capability than the E-3.
And for some comment above- the Israelis still fly a 707 size airframe for Air Battle Management capes with enough scopes to handle a full scale air war. Wedgetail is a more regional size aircraft more focused on Early warning than Control.

Ciao,
AWACS
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: Boeing Wedgetail

Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:58 pm

Quoting Lt-AWACS (Reply 28):

Thanks LT for that insightful post. How much longer are we looking to keep the E-3 in the inventory?

And in regards to Israel, where do they fly their birds? Surely they must be fairly far out over the Mediterranean, any closer to land, and a fighter from any one of the surrounding nations could intercept the AWACS within minutes.

And btw: when is LTAWACS going to become CPTAWACS?  Silly

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
Lt-AWACS
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RE: Boeing Wedgetail

Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:07 pm

Hi, I've been a a Capt for years and just hit my majors board actually. But you can't change your name here. I actually just seperated into the Reserves to take a job as a lobbyist in Texas!! No more NATO three hour work days....
So it is Civilian AWACS and soon to be Res Major AWACS LOL

THe US E-3 (and NATO for that matter) will be flying until at least 2025 (at least most of the airframes under the current plan). I would expect the French and British ones to be flying at least as long. The 5 Saudi birds could be sold (Pakistan tried to buy them) or kept by Saudi, they are lower hour~ed than the others. 66 of the original 68 E-3 airframes are still flying.

I've worked with the Israelis at both Maple Flag and Red Flag and the Chilean bird down in Chile for a Summit. Nice airplane. The main issue comes down to Scopes as much as radar and radios.

My AUssie AF friends are execited about heading back to Australia and spining up the Wedgetail program. They are grat controllers..

Ciao,
AWACS
Io voglio fica ogni giorni da mia bella moglie!
 
dl021
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RE: Boeing Wedgetail

Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:39 am

Quoting Lt-AWACS (Reply 28):
The wedgetail is however an great platform and the Aussie version will be great but it will have much less battle management capability than the E-3.

THe big difference there is that you've got twice the scopes/operators who can manage more stuff.

Quoting Lt-AWACS (Reply 28):
And for some comment above- the Israelis still fly a 707 size airframe for Air Battle Management capes with enough scopes to handle a full scale air war.

Yeah, but they're putting their AWACs into a smaller airframe (G-550). They do have a different flying command post type deal in a couple of 707s but that's a different bird. THey've got the older Phalcon birds, but I think they're going to be replaced.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 29):
And in regards to Israel, where do they fly their birds? Surely they must be fairly far out over the Mediterranean, any closer to land, and a fighter from any one of the surrounding nations could intercept the AWACS within minutes.

They fly these airplanes whereever they decide to fly them over their own country and control the battlespace from there. They work much like the E-2 concept over the aircraft carrier.....and the E-2 was the first AWACs airplane the Israelis used. I would assume they'd fly them whereever they needed to and could defend them should push come to shove.

Quoting Lt-AWACS (Reply 30):
the Chilean bird down in Chile for a Summit

Which is an Israeli Phalcon bird. It's getting long in the tooth, but it's an incredible asset for the Chileans. They Brasilian have bought the Swedish system and put it on their ERJs.....it's being looked at by the Chileans now.

Quoting Lt-AWACS (Reply 30):
The main issue comes down to Scopes as much as radar and radios.

The more humans you can put in the airplane using the information it's generating the more useful your airplane is going to be.
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Lt-AWACS
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RE: Boeing Wedgetail

Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:42 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 31):
THe big difference there is that you've got twice the scopes/operators who can manage more stuff.

Yes as I said that above.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 31):
Yeah, but they're putting their AWACs into a smaller airframe (G-550). They do have a different flying command post type deal in a couple of 707s but that's a different bird. THey've got the older Phalcon birds, but I think they're going to be replaced

Yes though I never said anything about the small airframes. The Phalcon birds are alive and well and do plenty of Battle Management..just to name a bit, and it is as capable as an E-3A.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 31):
Which is an Israeli Phalcon bird. It's getting long in the tooth, but it's an incredible asset for the Chileans. They Brasilian have bought the Swedish system and put it on their ERJs.....it's being looked at by the Chileans

Yes it is, which is why I mentioned it after discussing the Isreali aircraft. Another 707 size airframe with full scopes and capes.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 31):
The more humans you can put in the airplane using the information it's generating the more useful your airplane is going to be.

To an extent I would agree but that also comes with training, radiosm, data-links, command and control structure, and even ROE just to name a few. During certain parts of OIF, yes more would have been better. During certain parts of other less stressful missions a smaller platform is fine. For the anticipated needs of the Aussies, the Wedgetail capes will be fine. For most, and I stress most, not all US needs it will not especially on an Air Force AEW&C side as it cannot process the amount of info an E-3 can as you allude correctly in your above statement.

Ciao,
AWACS
Io voglio fica ogni giorni da mia bella moglie!
 
glennstewart
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RE: Boeing Wedgetail

Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:24 pm

Quoting HanginOut (Reply 8):
I've noticed the same thing and have to wonder what the hell is going on for the Aussies to always have these problems?! Maybe one of our Australian anetters can shed some light.

We seem to take a lot of new aircraft as the launch country (e.g. Wedgetail and Airbus refueller).

The only implementation that went from approval to implementation is a rapid pace has been the C-17. It's a proven product that was purchased with identical configuration to the USAF. Easy!
Canada was smart to follow in the same footsteps.
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Stealthz
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RE: Boeing Wedgetail

Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:31 am

Quoting Glennstewart (Reply 33):
The only implementation that went from approval to implementation is a rapid pace has been the C-17.

Exactly the same philosophy adopted by the RAF for their C-17(although they were initially leased) and the RAAF has taken with the F/A-18F.. although there is still time to screw with that program.

Cheers
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