Venus6971
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New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Sat Jul 07, 2007 3:43 am

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003584.html?wh=wh

I thought this would be intereseting for you anet'rs.
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
dl021
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RE: New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Sat Jul 07, 2007 4:04 am

Very much so. I'm very glad that we chose such an excellent helicopter for this mission. I think it's the largest helo that can be conveniently carried by the C-5 and C-17, and it's the most modern three engined helo available. I like the extra security of the third engine when it comes to carrying our CINC.

I further have no real issue with the idea of buying some equipment from our allies....especially when a serious chunk of the work is being done here. It seems to be the best equipment for the job.....just like the EH-145/UH-72.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Sat Jul 07, 2007 4:12 am

I'm not a helo nut by any stretch, but I thought NOTARS was the big trend nowadays? Or is that impractical on a helo that size?

DeltaGuy (wouldn't know how to fly a helo if his life depended on it)
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
checksixx
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RE: New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Sat Jul 07, 2007 4:13 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 1):
especially when a serious chunk of the work is being done here.

Its being built completely in the United States.
 
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N328KF
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RE: New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Sat Jul 07, 2007 4:19 am

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 3):
Its being built completely in the United States.

You mean it's being assembled in the United States from Anglo-Italian CKD kits.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:00 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 2):
I'm not a helo nut by any stretch, but I thought NOTARS was the big trend nowadays? Or is that impractical on a helo that size?

Not really. It's an impressive technology, but only a few helicopters utilize it... and none of them very large helicopters.

A year ago when the Army was deciding which helicopter they wanted to fill the new LUH slot, one of the top runners was the MD Explorer... but the EH-145 won at the end of the day.

The NOTAR system offers some nice advantages - less noise (I was standing outside on the airfield with a MD500 hovering at 100ft over my head... and I was amazed at how quiet it was.) It also reduces the vibrations. Anyone who has flown in a helicopter -especially on a daily basis will tell you two things will wear your body down more than anything else: the noise of a helicopter, and the vibrations of a helicopter!

The conventional tail rotor is actually responsible for a vast amount of the noise a helicopter produces. Whereas it is linked to the main rotor system via a driveshaft... the tail rotor must spin much faster than the main rotors, thus producing more sound. Interestingly, in the UH-60 our tail rotor is mounted at a 20degree angle, which produces 2.5% of the total lift of the helicopter.

Anyway, the NOTAR system is also heavier, due to the large fan which forces low pressure air down the tail and out the "exhaust vents". It's also ineffective at high speeds, so conventional control surfaces help maintain forward stability during flight. And it's also less maneuverable as speed increases.

Like everything else - it's a trade off.

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 2):
DeltaGuy (wouldn't know how to fly a helo if his life depended on it)

lol... well I don't want to talk myself up... but a monkey can fly an airplane. It takes a PILOT to fly a helicopter!  Wink

-------------------

Anyway, this is going to make a fantastic Marine One. Say, do they let Army helicopter pilots fly these birds? Or do you have to be a marine aviator?

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
dl021
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RE: New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:24 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 5):
Say, do they let Army helicopter pilots fly these birds? Or do you have to be a marine aviator?

Unfortunately, in order to fly the President in a helo, there seems to be some arcane rule about your parent's not being allowed to know each other.....  duck   Wink
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Legs
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RE: New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:41 pm

How does a shrouded tail rotor compare to the other two types mentioned?


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Photo © David Moore

 
David L
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RE: New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:09 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 5):
lol... well I don't want to talk myself up... but a monkey can fly an airplane. It takes a PILOT to fly a helicopter!

Easier than I thought, then. I thought a helicopter pilot had to resemble an octopus with a chameleon's eyes.  Smile
 
BladeLWS
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RE: New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Sat Jul 07, 2007 11:33 pm

Quoting Legs (Reply 7):
How does a shrouded tail rotor compare to the other two types mentioned?

A shrouded rotor reduces noise alot for urban areas, but it's draw back is that it adds weight and needs a stronger boom to support it.
 
checksixx
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RE: New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:42 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 4):
You mean it's being assembled in the United States from Anglo-Italian CKD kits.

Not at all...I meant built which means assembled smarty pants.
 
checksixx
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RE: New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:45 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 5):
I was standing outside on the airfield with a MD500 hovering at 100ft over my head... and I was amazed at how quiet it was.

I understand what you meant, but for those who don't know, there are no MD500's with NOTAR...And yes, as UH60FtRucker stated, they are considerably more quiet.
 
checksixx
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RE: New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:48 am

Quoting BladeLWS (Reply 9):
A shrouded rotor reduces noise alot for urban areas, but it's draw back is that it adds weight and needs a stronger boom to support it.

Actually as Eurocopter found out, the fenestron tail rotor system was MUCH louder. This is the main reason that they recently redesigned it with off-set blades in order to reduce the noise.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:40 am

Quoting David L (Reply 8):
Easier than I thought, then. I thought a helicopter pilot had to resemble an octopus with a chameleon's eyes.

lol... sometimes I wish I had as many arms as an octopus. Helicopters just simply require constant piloting and control.

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 11):

I understand what you meant, but for those who don't know, there are no MD500's with NOTAR...And yes, as UH60FtRucker stated, they are considerably more quiet.

You're right, it was the MDExplorer. Must have been a brain-fart.

Quoting BladeLWS (Reply 9):
A shrouded rotor reduces noise alot for urban areas, but it's draw back is that it adds weight and needs a stronger boom to support it.



Quoting Checksixx (Reply 12):
Actually as Eurocopter found out, the fenestron tail rotor system was MUCH louder. This is the main reason that they recently redesigned it with off-set blades in order to reduce the noise.

That's interesting, I wonder why that was? Was it just this particular helicopter? Because I know that in the case of the RAH-66, the tail rotor noise was lowered substantially by enclosing it in a shroud.

The shroud will typically direct the noise to the sides of the helicopter... and not down. Therefore, those standing below a helicopter will not hear as much noise. Also the shroud will help minimize the tail rotor vortices interacting with the main rotor vortices, creating less vibration, and thus more comfort for the passengers and crew. The shroud also minimizes the chance of you sticking your tail rotor into something - which surprisingly happens more often then some might think! Like I said - tail rotors cause a disproportionate amount of noise for their size - due to their faster rotation. And that noise is higher pitched, and very loud to the human ear. I HATE standing outside a UH-60 when the throttle is full forward - that tail rotor hurts the ears.

The problem is like BladeLWS said - it's heavy. However, the shroud offers BETTER aerodynamic performance by reducing certain vortex creations and interactions.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
A342
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RE: New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Sun Jul 08, 2007 6:13 am

To get back to the article (FI also has one),

is the need for a new presidential helo so pressing that they can't wait to get the definitive (Increment 2) aircraft?
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
heliflyerPDC
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RE: New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:00 am

Big version: Width: 3300 Height: 2332 File size: 1169kb
vh71


looks nice doen't it

grtz PDC
grtz PDC
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:19 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 14):
To get back to the article (FI also has one),

is the need for a new presidential helo so pressing that they can't wait to get the definitive (Increment 2) aircraft?

As explained:

Quote:
"The focus for Increment 1 is to deliver maximum capability within an aggressive schedule," notes Dewar. "While we test the aircraft and gear up for production, concurrent engineering will allow a seamless transition to Increment 2. We will deliver a mission-ready aircraft four years after contract award. The fully mission capable aircraft will be delivered two years after that."

TV-1 through TV-5 will be Increment 1 aircraft, and will be used to test the technology and additional features that will be found on the VH-71.

TV-6 will be the first Increment 2 aircraft, and will be used for aircraft performance evaluations, for which performance charts for the VH-71 will be based off of.

The eighteen Increment 2 production aircraft will come off a second assembly line in Amarillo, Texas. Full Yankee White security protocols will be in effect at this factory.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
dl021
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RE: New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:21 am

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 10):
Not at all...I meant built which means assembled smarty pants.

Well....to be fair many people may be of the opinion that "built" means parts forged and built here as well as assembled into a large constellation of parts that will all move in the same direction at the same speed....if we're all very lucky!

The aircraft assembly issue is one that is touchy....are the AV-8B's built here or assembled here? The engines and parts kits came from elsewhere, so I guess it's opinion or interpretation.
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autothrust
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RE: New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:30 am

I wonder why they didnt choose the much more modern NH-90, was it to small? To less range?

Quote:

NH-90
# Length: 16.13 m (52 ft 11 in)
# Rotor diameter: 16.30 m (53 ft 5¾ in)
# Height: 5.23 m (17 ft 2 in)
# Empty weight: 5,400 kg (11,900 lb)
# Max takeoff weight: 10,600 kg (23,370 lb)
# Range: 800 km (TTH); 1,000 km


EH-101
# Length: 74 ft 10 in (22.81 m)
# Rotor diameter: 61 ft 0 in (18.59 m)
# Height: 21 ft 10 in (6.65 m)
# Empty weight: 23,150 lb (10,500 kg)
# Useful load: 12,000 lb (5,443 kg)
# Max takeoff weight: 32,188 lb (14,600 kg)
# Range: 750 nm (863 mi, 1389 km)
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dl021
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RE: New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:32 pm

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 18):
I wonder why they didnt choose the much more modern NH-90, was it to small? To less range?

Well....the NH90 is not really "much more modern". It has half the payload capacity, one less engine, alot less room, and would not have beaten the Sikorsky S-92 offering, much less the superior capability Merlin-type.


Size definitely played a role, on top of the power and other issues.
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cancidas
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RE: New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:26 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 5):
well I don't want to talk myself up... but a monkey can fly an airplane. It takes a PILOT to fly a helicopter!

very well said!
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
A342
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RE: New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:22 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 16):
As explained:

Ok, I should refer to the FI article:

Quoting FI:
AgustaWestland has flown the first test aircraft built specifically for the Lockheed Martin VH-71 US presidential helicopter programme. (...)


Under Increment 1 of the programme, three additional test aircraft will fly by early 2008 and five pilot-production VH-71s will be delivered by October 2009 to meet the urgent requirement for a new presidential helicopter.

An improved version of the helicopter with increased performance will be developed for Increment 2. This will have uprated engines, a new transmission, longer rotor blades and extended tailboom to give the helicopter longer range and a command and control capability while in flight.

Original plans called for 18 new Increment 2 helicopters, plus upgrades to the Increment 1 machines, but because of the extensive changes the VH-71 team has recommended production of 23 new Increment 2 helicopters.(...)


VH-71 prime contractor Lockheed Martin is already using an EH101, designated TV-1, for initial testing in the USA, including landings on the White House lawn.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...presidential-helicopter-flies.html
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
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autothrust
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RE: New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:19 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 19):
Well....the NH90 is not really "much more modern"

Sorry thats not true, the NH-90 is much more modern; it has a fully 4x redundant digital fly by wire which the helicopter can fly automatic and hover without manual input. The Fuselage is mainly CFRP with Fibre Reinforced Plastic which provides much less corrosion with low Radar signature.
Besides it has several computers for Navigation,Communication,Monitoring,Surveillance,Diagnosis,etc..
Avionics system based on a dual MIL-STD-1553B digital databus. Further upgrades will provide the NH-90 with care free handling features. I couldnt find much more information.

The EH-101 has a electromechanical BAE systems flyby wire and a modular aluminium-lithium alloy fuselage.The EH101 is equipped with helicopter management, avionics and mission systems linked by two 1553B multiplex databuses.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 19):
Size definitely played a role, on top of the power and other issues.

Agreed, the EH-101 is sure a great helicopter and will server well as presidential chopper.
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
dl021
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RE: New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:27 am

AUto...well...ok...it looks to me like they're both served by the same computers and safety systems...but you are correct in that the carbonfibre body on the NH is more advanced than the al-li loy on the Merlin...

I'd have to say though that they are the same generation of airplane and relatively equal in their electronics and engine tech.

But we do agree that the VH-71 will serve the mission very well.
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777
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RE: New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:15 am

Here below some pictures of the event (from www.thedigitalaviator.com)


http://www.thedigitalaviator.com/blog//wp-content/uploads/VH001.jpg

http://www.thedigitalaviator.com/blog//wp-content/uploads/VH002.jpg

http://www.thedigitalaviator.com/blog//wp-content/uploads/VH003.jpg

http://www.thedigitalaviator.com/blog//wp-content/uploads/VH004.jpg
 
fumanchewd
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RE: New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:40 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 2):
I'm not a helo nut by any stretch, but I thought NOTARS was the big trend nowadays? Or is that impractical on a helo that size?



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 5):
Not really. It's an impressive technology, but only a few helicopters utilize it... and none of them very large helicopters.
(

NOTAR technology is patented by MD and not currently used by any other company.

What's more, only helicopters from MD Helicopters feature the patented NOTAR® anti-torque system for operator benefits that include increased quiet, safety, reduced insurance rates and the ability to fly in areas that are off limits to other rotorcraft.

http://www.mdhelicopters.com/products.php?cid=2

http://www.mdhelicopters.com/products.php?id=NOTAR

[Edited 2007-07-10 01:50:17]
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Revelation
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RE: New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:01 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 16):
The eighteen Increment 2 production aircraft will come off a second assembly line in Amarillo, Texas.

I still wonder why we need 18 helicopters for 1 president...

Seeing them fly in formation would look like the helicopter invasion scene from "Apocylpse Now!" (cue the Wagner) ...
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Tugger
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RE: New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:50 am

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 25):
NOTAR technology is patented by MD and not currently used by any other company.

Make you a bet they would let THIS helicopter use it if asked (In fact I believe the US government could force its use if so desired).
I wonder if it could even be applied to this retroactively. Should a T-rotor mishap ever occur with Marine One I can bet it would be explored!

Tug
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
Curt22
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RE: New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:05 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 26):
I still wonder why we need 18 helicopters for 1 president...

POTUS has a big "posse"! Prez travel required several acft (hauling limo's, comm, secuirty force etc) and multipul helicopters that travel with him...some for additional staff, some for security (decoys) and since we're talking about the reliability of helicopters...some travel as spares!
 
Stealthz
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RE: New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:47 pm

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 18):
EH-101
# Length: 74 ft 10 in (22.81 m)
# Rotor diameter: 61 ft 0 in (18.59 m)
# Height: 21 ft 10 in (6.65 m)
# Empty weight: 23,150 lb (10,500 kg)
# Useful load: 12,000 lb (5,443 kg)
# Max takeoff weight: 32,188 lb (14,600 kg)
# Range: 750 nm (863 mi, 1389 km)

Am I missing something here?
If you add the useful load to the empty weight you get something like 1,300kg over the max take off weight.

Just curious
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
HanginOut
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RE: New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:23 am

Will the US-101 also replace the UH-60 that POTUS uses on trips outside of the US?

Also, please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the air transport requirements of POTUS split between the services? USAF operates the fixed wing aircraft POTUS uses, USMC operates the helicopters (Sea kings) used by POTUS in the US and the Army operates the UH-60s operated for POTUS on trips outside of the US?
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autothrust
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RE: New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:40 pm

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 29):
Am I missing something here?
If you add the useful load to the empty weight you get something like 1,300kg over the max take off weight.

Oh! Of yourse you are right, didnt check it. I shouldnt have done it but this data are from Wikipedia. I couldnt find a lot infos about the NH-90 thats why i took it from there.
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
dl021
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RE: New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:16 pm

Quoting HanginOut (Reply 30):
US and the Army operates the UH-60s operated for POTUS on trips outside of the US?

The VH-60s are flown by USMC pilots if I'm not mistaken. They're the only H-60's in the USMC inventory.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
echster
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RE: New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Fri Jul 20, 2007 4:30 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 26):
I still wonder why we need 18 helicopters for 1 president...

I think it is a buy of 23 total airframes. To answer your question, though, these are more than for the President. They're also for the Vice President, foreign heads of state, and other persons as designated by the White House Military Office. The number seems about right when you factor in needing 3-4 helicopters at an overseas location. If more than one country is being visited now you're talking 2 traveling parties and 6-8 helicopters.

Quoting HanginOut (Reply 30):
....the Army operates the UH-60s operated for POTUS on trips outside of the US?

The Army doesn't normally operate flights for the POTUS or VPOTUS. It occassionally happens when USTRANSCOM or HMX-1 can't get the normal helicopters where the POTUS needs them. IIRC, the last Army aircraft the POTUS was on was for aerial survey after Katrina. The H60s from the 82nd CAB at Ft. Bragg were given the task.
 
HanginOut
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RE: New Potus Helicopter Makes First Flight

Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:28 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 32):
The VH-60s are flown by USMC pilots if I'm not mistaken. They're the only H-60's in the USMC inventory.

I looked into this further and you (and Echster) are right. The VH-60s for POTUS, the VP and visiting heads of state are operated by the USMC. The Army does have five VH-60s (and some UH-1s) which are used to provide priority air transport to members of Congress, the senior leadership of the Department of Defense and other federal and state agencies in the DC area.
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