AirRyan
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Taiwan Selects Boeing AH-64D Over Bell AH-1Z

Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:19 am

I still say that the USMC could have ordered AH-64D's and used them on the boats just fine (as the British WAH-64D's have proven) and they could have saved even more money by using the USN's MH-60S instead of the UH-1Y: Bell sold them a bill of goods that they wanted to hear regardless as to the truth of the costs the Corps still would have had a much better fleet in the AH-64D/MH-60S than they ever will with the AH-1Z/UH-1Y. It's sad when Taiwan shows more intelligence than our beloved Corps!

Quote:

Taiwan Chooses Boeing Over Bell In US$1.5 Billion Helicopter Deal

July 10, 2007: 06:47 AM EST


TAIPEI (AP)--Taiwan's army wants to buy 30 Boeing Co. (BA) Apache attack helicopters from the United States , an official said Tuesday, in a deal that will almost certainly roil rival China .

Col. Dai Kuang-chao said the military opted for the Boeing AH-64D Apache Longbow over Bell's AH-1Z Cobra because it better suited the army's needs.

"This fits our military requirements," Dai said. "The Cobra may be a bit newer but it is still not battle proven."

The deal, worth US$1.5 billion , still needs the approval of the U.S. government and Taiwan's Legislature.

China can be expected to pressure Washington not to approve the sale, in line with its efforts to prevent Taiwan from procuring sophisticated military equipment from abroad.

The two sides split amid civil war in 1949, and China continues to view Taiwan as part of its territory.

It has threatened to attack if the democratic island makes its de facto independence permanent.

Last month Taiwan's Legislature approved the purchase of American submarine hunting aircraft, a small part of a US$15 billion package that also includes American diesel submarines and the third generation of the Patriot anti-missile system.

President Chen Shui-bian's Democratic Progressive Party has been pushing for acquisition of the submarines and the Patriots too, but the opposition has used its narrow legislative majority to block the purchases on the grounds they would propel Taiwan into a no-win arms race with the mainland.

Chen and the DPP counter that Taiwan must rapidly strengthen its military to combat a decade-long Chinese arms buildup, and so safeguard the island from possible attack.

Bell Helicopter is a unit of Textron Inc. (TXT).

(END) Dow Jones Newswires
07-10-07 0647ET
Copyright (c) 2007 Dow Jones & Company, Inc.

 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Taiwan Selects Boeing AH-64D Over Bell AH-1Z

Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:35 pm

I think you are forgetting that for much of the early service of the AH64 it was a steaming pile of MX hogging crap. The Marine cobras with thier twin engines, were very much a far better match for thier needs than the AH64. Its not about busting up armored columns in europe, its about supporting marines in the various hell holes marines tend to be told to go find and and get shot at in. A hellfire missile is very useless against infantry and a very expensive way to take out a beatup pickup/jeep with a machine gun.

Not to mention the Marines already had lots of cobra frames, so in many cases they could get the latest and greatest by shipping off some old frames and getting them stuffed with new engines, drivetrains, avionics, etc to bring them upto date.

Which isn't to say that Taiwan made a mistake, just that the AH64 would have been a massive mistake for the marines.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Taiwan Selects Boeing AH-64D Over Bell AH-1Z

Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:47 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 1):
I think you are forgetting that for much of the early service of the AH64 it was a steaming pile of MX hogging crap.

You know, I keep hearing that, but the figures never supported this rumor. More often than not, people were basing these rumors off of the first few years the helicopter was integrated into the Army. By the time AH-64As flew in Panama and the Persian Gulf War, they had over 90% readiness levels.

Sounds like a real turkey, huh?

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 1):
Its not about busting up armored columns in europe, its about supporting marines in the various hell holes marines tend to be told to go find and and get shot at in. A hellfire missile is very useless against infantry and a very expensive way to take out a beatup pickup/jeep with a machine gun.

God, I can't believe I am about to support the AH-64 (did you know the vast majority of their pilots were products of incest?  Wink ) Anyway, that's certainly not the case in Iraq. AH-64s have proven to be invaluable.

When troops are pinned down, they like to have an Apache on hand... and typically, they want a hellfire placed in a very specific part of a building. The Apache pilots can put that Hellfire through a specific window and take out whatever opposition the ground guys were facing.

They are also important for convoy support. The Kiowa Warriors typically have no more than a few bursts of .50cal, and a handful of poorly guided rockets. Not to mention any KW attack requires the aircraft to pop-up and perform a shallow dive on the target. The thousand rounds of 30 mike mike on the Apache can tear up a lot of things.  Smile

And lastly, even now, Army AH-64s are protecting and supporting Marines in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I don't know if it's the right helicopter for them. I am not to knowledgeable about Marine aviation needs, so I can't say. But what I do know, is that people have a lot of misconceptions about the AH-64, and that the helicopter is the best thing flying in Iraq. Hands down.

(But the pilots are still hooting, ass scratching jack-asses!  devil  )

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
fridgmus
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RE: Taiwan Selects Boeing AH-64D Over Bell AH-1Z

Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:55 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 2):
God, I can't believe I am about to support the AH-64 (did you know the vast majority of their pilots were products of incest?



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 2):
(But the pilots are still hooting, ass scratching jack-asses!

Well don't sugar coat it UH60, tell us how you REALLY feel!  crackup 

If it has rotors and guns on it, our convoy drivers love all you rotorheads!  bigthumbsup 

Thanks for being here.
The Lockheed Super Constellation, the REAL Queen of the Skies!
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Taiwan Selects Boeing AH-64D Over Bell AH-1Z

Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:27 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 2):
the Persian Gulf War

given that the first units were delivered in 1984, that is 8 years of fixing it. The reliability issues were just the cherry on top of a host of issues that the marines have/had with the platform. Commonly stated was the expense of converting the frame to landing gear/skids to ones that would be ship safe.

The AH64 has proven to be a good airframe, just not what the marines need.
 
dl021
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RE: Taiwan Selects Boeing AH-64D Over Bell AH-1Z

Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:49 am

The AH-64 is the best attack helo flying....there are others that are less expensive....there are others that are better armored...there may even be a couple that look cooler (nah...) but it's the best attack helo in the air today. More ability to accurately and effectively launch more punch directly on targets than anything......

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4):
Commonly stated was the expense of converting the frame to landing gear/skids to ones that would be ship safe.

If wheels aren't safe then how do we explain the SH-3, the SH-60, the Super Frelon, the Panther, the Cougar, the CH-53D/E, the CH-46......I could go on.....someone please share why the thing needs skids if the others don't.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
AirRyan
Topic Author
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RE: Taiwan Selects Boeing AH-64D Over Bell AH-1Z

Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:42 am

Let's face it - the Corps spent need a cheap alternative because they spent way too much money on the V-22 keeping the program alive when by all other rationale it should have been terminated on numerous occassions. The only problem is that in the longrun after Bell's incompetence and mismanagment, the program will end up only saving the Corps a fraction that of what they sold the Corps when they originally brokered the deal.

As a former Marine who served in the wing at arms length from the skids, I've heard all the excuses and theories as to why the Marines used the Cobra's over the Apaches and the fact of the matter of is, little to none of it is actually valid and the Corps would be better off with Longbow Apaches over the retread skids.

Quote:

The imminent introduction of the WAH-64D Apache attack helicopter into UK service will add another dimension to Ocean's mix of embarked air assets. It is envisaged that a flight of six Apaches could be routinely embarked (in place of the Lynx) from 2003 to provide anti-tank, combat support and reconnaissance capabilities in support of expeditionary forces ashore.

http://navy-matters.beedall.com/ocean.htm

EADS recently conducted sea trials on the Tiger attack helicopter that were quite successful...
http://www.eads.com/1024/en/pressdb/...eurocopter_tigre_navalisation.html
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Taiwan Selects Boeing AH-64D Over Bell AH-1Z

Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:47 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 5):
If wheels aren't safe then how do we explain the SH-3, the SH-60, the Super Frelon, the Panther, the Cougar, the CH-53D/E, the CH-46......I could go on.....someone please share why the thing needs skids if the others don't.

Its not the wheels, its the width of the wheels from each other. It was stated right or wrong that they were too narrow for use at sea on a pitching deck and would need to either have the current landing gear widened or replaced by skids with a wider footprint. The engineering reality doesn't matter since the belief of this would have thus mandated that the modifications take place regardless.
 
trex8
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RE: Taiwan Selects Boeing AH-64D Over Bell AH-1Z

Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:00 am

The AH64D has been the ROCAs technical choice for several years. The holdup in procuring them has been due to 1. the usual childish antics of the opposition Taiwanese legislators - do anything even if its to the detriment of national security to make the governing party look bad, 2. Boeings corporate decision to kowtow to the far more important Chinese communist airline market than the limited military market in Taiwan and refusing to discuss even informally licence production details with Taiwanese authorities till directed to do so by the Pentagon. At a time when Bell are tripping over themselves to send work to Taiwan (UH1Y and AH1Z tail booms already coming from Taiwan for the USMC choppers) and Sikorsky has said over 70% industrial offsets if not more for any Taiwan contract- Taiwanese press just reported the ROCA are trying to slip into this years budget requests for the UH1H replacement which has been put off for close to a decade- recent crash of a Huey just made the likelihood of getting funding that much better. MH60L is their favorite, though why they need an armed utility and a dedicated attack chopper is beyond me.
 
AirRyan
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RE: Taiwan Selects Boeing AH-64D Over Bell AH-1Z

Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:33 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 8):
though why they need an armed utility and a dedicated attack chopper is beyond me.

Same reason China needs missiles off the coast of the mainland pointing at Taiwan let alone why Taiwan cannot be their own independant nation in the first palce: if I were Taiwan I'd declare my independance at the opening games of the 2008 Olympics!
 
GDB
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RE: Taiwan Selects Boeing AH-64D Over Bell AH-1Z

Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:22 am

Apart from being progressively marinised (where the main issues are the avionics on a ship bursting with radars etc, as well as corrosion proofing), the British Army WH-64D's have found the CVR-7 rockets a useful asset to complement the 30mm against 'lower value' targets, the Taliban reportedly don't like them much.

Though the US Army ones have unguided rockets too?

I remember seeing Marinised AH-64's proposed way back in the mid 80's, though these seemed to be more about something to operate from the re-born Iowa class BB's.
Still, the marine mods would need to be done, so a USMC AH-64 could have evolved from that, with a start 20 years ago, USMC AH-64's would have been a reality for many years by now.

WTF with all those AH-1Y delays (and the programme for the Huey too)?
I ask because did not the USMC AH-1's already evolve from the original, to TOW version, to several major upgrade programmes since, so what went so wrong this time? Are contractors and/or the DoD procurement just plain incompetent far more often now?
 
trex8
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RE: Taiwan Selects Boeing AH-64D Over Bell AH-1Z

Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:51 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 10):
WTF with all those AH-1Y delays (and the programme for the Huey too)?
I ask because did not the USMC AH-1's already evolve from the original, to TOW version, to several major upgrade programmes since, so what went so wrong this time? Are contractors and/or the DoD procurement just plain incompetent far more often now?

the Y and Z have a new powertrain with a new rotor, new cockpits etc etc. its not just another "upgraded" Huey or Cobra.
 
L-188
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RE: Taiwan Selects Boeing AH-64D Over Bell AH-1Z

Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:50 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 10):
Though the US Army ones have unguided rockets too?

Yup. and the do a pretty decent job too.
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