Boeingluvr
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787 Next Air Force One?

Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:34 pm

Hey just caught wind that there are a couple of orders for the US government for 787's. Possible AF1 replacement? Is this true or did I just hear wrong? Obviously I have no links or written evidence. Just rumors. Can anyone else enlighten me?
 
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moo
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RE: 787 Next Air Force One?

Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:39 pm

Quoting Boeingluvr (Thread starter):
Possible AF1 replacement?

Extremely doubtful - not enough room and the current VC-25s are low hour 747s with lots of future in them.
 
Boeingluvr
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RE: 787 Next Air Force One?

Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:43 pm

Obviously they are. Just a rumor that 2 unknows are for the US government. Could that category cover NASA? I suppose they could be for the Air Force or Navy but that wouldn't really make sense I don't think. Possibly NASA would make sense but for what?
 
N1120A
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RE: 787 Next Air Force One?

Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:44 pm

Well, they may end up as Air Force One at some point, as any Air Force aircraft with the President on it will. As far as replacing the VC-25s and E4-Bs, not a chance. If anything, the 748I will replace the VC-25s and the VC-25s will replace the E4-Bs.
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kappel
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RE: 787 Next Air Force One?

Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:45 pm

IMHO the replacement of AF1 (which won't be for a while anyway) are more likely to be 748's. Hey who knows, they may opt for the a389...  duck 
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Boeingluvr
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RE: 787 Next Air Force One?

Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:50 pm

I'm doubting an A389 or any Airbus for that matter. I believe the government would stay loyal to Boeing. They've been their provider for AF1 for quite some time, ever since the 707's. Why go from American made to French? Not to mention as some consider for Boeing to be the better of both(matter of opinion) and I'm sure Boeing holds quite a few secrets to all the extras the government wants.

[Edited 2007-07-23 10:50:57]
 
N1120A
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RE: 787 Next Air Force One?

Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:54 pm

Quoting Boeingluvr (Reply 5):
I believe the government would stay loyal to Boeing. They've been their provider for AF1 for quite some time, ever since the 707's. Why go from American made to French?

I tend to agree, though the new helicopter for the presidential fleet is going to be an Anglo-Italian product with US badges stuck on it.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Boeingluvr
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RE: 787 Next Air Force One?

Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:56 pm

Yes but a lot less public and common knowledge then AF1 would be.
 
halls120
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RE: 787 Next Air Force One?

Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:22 pm

Quoting Boeingluvr (Reply 7):
Yes but a lot less public and common knowledge then AF1 would be.

When the time comes to replace AF1, it will be with a US designed and built aircraft. No way would Congress permit the President to fly around the world in a foreign built aircraft.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
keesje
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RE: 787 Next Air Force One?

Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:36 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 8):
When the time comes to replace AF1, it will be with a US designed and built aircraft. No way would Congress permit the President to fly around the world in a foreign built aircraft.

No it' s different then you think / feel, he/she will.



Maybe AF1 a launch customer for the Boeing Y3?
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
halls120
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RE: 787 Next Air Force One?

Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:25 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 9):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 8):
When the time comes to replace AF1, it will be with a US designed and built aircraft. No way would Congress permit the President to fly around the world in a foreign built aircraft.

No it' s different then you think / feel, he/she will.

I said "fly around the world" Keesje, not for short hops from the White House to Andrews AFB.

We trust European aircraft for those short duration flights.  Wink

But if you really think AF1 going to ever be an Airbus product, it's time for your employer to institute random drug testing.  biggrin 
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
ebj1248650
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RE: 787 Next Air Force One?

Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:49 pm

Quoting Boeingluvr (Thread starter):
Hey just caught wind that there are a couple of orders for the US government for 787's. Possible AF1 replacement? Is this true or did I just hear wrong? Obviously I have no links or written evidence. Just rumors. Can anyone else enlighten me?

Might the 787s be replacedments for airplanes currently in the SAM (special air mission) fleet? Aren't there still some VC-135s serving that fleet?
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: 787 Next Air Force One?

Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:13 pm

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 11):
Might the 787s be replacedments for airplanes currently in the SAM (special air mission) fleet? Aren't there still some VC-135s serving that fleet?

Yes, there are still a few VC-135Cs in the inventory (in Hawaii and Europe, IIRC). But, there is no need to replace these airplanes.
 
Thorny
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RE: 787 Next Air Force One?

Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:41 pm

Quoting Kappel (Reply 4):
IMHO the replacement of AF1 (which won't be for a while anyway) are more likely to be 748's.

AF1 replacement is much farther in the future. Almost certainly Y3.
 
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N328KF
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RE: 787 Next Air Force One?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:19 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 6):
I tend to agree, though the new helicopter for the presidential fleet is going to be an Anglo-Italian product with US badges stuck on it.

An Anglo-Italian helicopter is a far cry from an airliner whose manufacturer is widely perceived to be French, and in practice, is at least partially dominated by that country. You may not like that statement, but that's a big reason why.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
Boeingluvr
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RE: 787 Next Air Force One?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:15 am

When the time comes who makes the final decision?
 
keesje
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RE: 787 Next Air Force One?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:34 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 14):
An Anglo-Italian helicopter is a far cry from an airliner whose manufacturer is widely perceived to be French, and in practice, is at least partially dominated by that country. You may not like that statement, but that's a big reason why.

Yes, what was it agian, those folks participate in Afghanistan but said the Iraq invasion was a bad idea, unforgiveable..
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Sinlock
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RE: 787 Next Air Force One?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:09 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 10):
I said "fly around the world" Keesje, not for short hops from the White House to Andrews AFB.

I'd take a look at these.......  footinmouth 


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The VH-60 seems to be quit a world traveler, I don't see why the VH-71 will not be one also.
 
halls120
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RE: 787 Next Air Force One?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:34 am

Quoting Sinlock (Reply 17):
I'd take a look at these....... ÊÊ


The VH-60 seems to be quit a world traveler, I don't see why the VH-71 will not be one also.

What is it with you and Keesje?

Of course the new Presidential helicopter will be ferried around the world, but it won't actually be flying under its own power around the world.

I don't know though. Maybe those crafty Europeans have found a way to fly a helicopter across the Atlantic on its own power.  Wink
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: 787 Next Air Force One?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:12 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 18):
I don't know though. Maybe those crafty Europeans have found a way to fly a helicopter across the Atlantic on its own power.

If you hated the pilots enough you could ferry them over with in-air refueling. Don't mind me if I'd give that a miss from either side of the refueling bit. I'm sure its cheaper and safer to just stuff them in the back of a transport.... faster too.
 
cancidas
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RE: 787 Next Air Force One?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:23 am

the VH-60 easily folds up and fits into a C-17, which it why it travels. as far as the VH-71 is concerned, i doubt that it would fit as easily into a C-17.
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
checksixx
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RE: 787 Next Air Force One?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:06 pm

My guess is that a possible 787 buy would be to replace either the 757's...as that is really what the 787 is for in the first place...or some of the older models like some here have already pointed out. I think if Airbus had a building facility here in the US, then they might stand a chance for a bid on presidential aircraft because the building process could be closely monitored. Not to mention maintenance and improvements could be accomplished close to home. Just my two cents.
 
dl767captain
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RE: 787 Next Air Force One?

Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:08 am

they could replace the 757's but not the 747's I think the 748 will be the best replacement (A380 would be cool but it probably won't happen)
 
PC12Fan
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RE: 787 Next Air Force One?

Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:59 am

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 21):

Makes sense to me. As many others have said here, the VC-25 is still a young pup when it comes to total hours. However, I wouldn't doubt that replacement talk is underway. The term "pork barrel" comes to mind.

A "VC-787" may be possible for domestic routes though. Maybe some are hearing the grumblings of people wondering why a 747 is transporting the POTUS across a couple states when a smaller aircraft would do. A plane the size of a 787-8 had the range and size to support such missions, but wouldn't up to the "Flying White house" standards. But if the VC-25 were to replaced today, I can't see it being anything but the 747-8. Especially if the "attic space" is utilized to increase the aircrafts capability. I understand that the VC-25 can do almost everything the E4-B's can do. If this is the case, then a "VC-748" would replace both the VC-25 and E4-B's.
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XT6Wagon
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RE: 787 Next Air Force One?

Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:07 pm

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 23):
Makes sense to me. As many others have said here, the VC-25 is still a young pup when it comes to total hours. However, I wouldn't doubt that replacement talk is underway. The term "pork barrel" comes to mind.

A "VC-787" may be possible for domestic routes though. Maybe some are hearing the grumblings of people wondering why a 747 is transporting the POTUS across a couple states when a smaller aircraft would do. A plane the size of a 787-8 had the range and size to support such missions, but wouldn't up to the "Flying White house" standards. But if the VC-25 were to replaced today, I can't see it being anything but the 747-8. Especially if the "attic space" is utilized to increase the aircrafts capability. I understand that the VC-25 can do almost everything the E4-B's can do. If this is the case, then a "VC-748" would replace both the VC-25 and E4-B's.

yah, I could certainly see acquiring a single 748 for the president, leaving the VC25's as backup. the VP/Press/Whatever could have a small fleet of 787 as these have the range for effortless transpacific operations so it would be no reason to swap to 747's on that factor.

The 748 built frame out to be Airforce 1, would likely be a very economical decision as the running costs will be far lower, and the use of modern electronics should provide for far cheaper serviceability and future upgrades. If total size is a problem, I'm not sure it would be hard to talk Boeing into a one off 744 length plane given it would be delivered "green" for conversion anyway... (also would have its own flight test program regardless of how close to "stock" it is)
 
lehpron
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RE: 787 Next Air Force One?

Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:29 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 9):
Maybe AF1 a launch customer for the Boeing Y3?

I'm not sure I would want my tax money to go into that kind of extravagance.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
PC12Fan
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RE: 787 Next Air Force One?

Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:51 am

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 25):
I'm not sure I would want my tax money to go into that kind of extravagance.

It's already gone into two 747's, what difference does it make?
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
PlayLoud
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RE: 787 Next Air Force One?

Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:56 am

Would it be possible to re-engine the two AF1 jets with the GEnx (747-8) engines? This would be far cheaper than purchasing new planes.
 
WrenchBender
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RE: 787 Next Air Force One?

Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:11 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 18):
Maybe those crafty Europeans have found a way to fly a helicopter across the Atlantic on its own power.

Actually Halls thats how the canadian forces took delivery of thier 15 EH101's.
Italy-Scotland-Iceland-Greenland-Canada  Silly

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halls120
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RE: 787 Next Air Force One?

Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:31 am

Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 28):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 18):Maybe those crafty Europeans have found a way to fly a helicopter across the Atlantic on its own power.
Actually Halls thats how the canadian forces took delivery of thier 15 EH101's.
Italy-Scotland-Iceland-Greenland-Canada

LOL, that's one hell of a flight!

Of course, I meant a nonstop flight across the Atlantic.....
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
LimaNiner
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RE: 787 Next Air Force One?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:30 am

Quoting Boeingluvr (Reply 5):
Why go from American made to French?

EADS, the Airbus's "mothership", is a *European* company, not a "French" company.

22.5% of its shares are owned by DaimlerChrysler (which I'd call a German company), and 22.5% are owned by French entities (7.5% by Lagardere, and 15% by the French government).
 
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par13del
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RE: 787 Next Air Force One?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 12:21 pm

For me the issue is not that the a/c is either French, or Anglo-Italian, but that the Office of the President of The United States, the only real superpower, will be flying around in a a/c that his people only assemble.
In my mind, the office represents the people of the nation, and in a cynical way, it can be said that this is the best that the US can do, assemble another countries aircraft. If this is the best a/c availabe, then by all means supply it to those brave men and women who volunteer their lives in the service of their nation, the US military does that today, the Harrier probaly the most visible example among many others.

As for AF1 - the VC25 being replaced by the 787, in the long run you never know, the world is changing, peace may reign where the ability for the president to be aloft for so long is no longer necessary, yes the B787 is long ranged, but with only 2 engines, redundancy is down, and no we are not talking about ETOPS. Now we just have to see Boeing get the thing flying and delivered and performing and meeting expectations, and etc etc etc
 
F27Friendship
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RE: 787 Next Air Force One?

Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:29 pm

Quoting Par13del (Reply 31):
For me the issue is not that the a/c is either French, or Anglo-Italian, but that the Office of the President of The United States, the only real superpower, will be flying around in a a/c that his people only assemble.
In my mind, the office represents the people of the nation, and in a cynical way, it can be said that this is the best that the US can do, assemble another countries aircraft. If this is the best a/c availabe, then by all means supply it to those brave men and women who volunteer their lives in the service of their nation, the US military does that today, the Harrier probaly the most visible example among many others.

This only holds untill someone else builds something better, like the US101 which is now the presidential helocopter, or as you pointed out, using the harrier.

Quoting LimaNiner (Reply 30):
EADS, the Airbus's "mothership", is a *European* company, not a "French" company.

I'm glad you pointed that out...

Quoting LimaNiner (Reply 30):
22.5% of its shares are owned by DaimlerChrysler (which I'd call a German company), and 22.5% are owned by French entities (7.5% by Lagardere, and 15% by the French government).

That's also a way to look at it, but than a lot of genuine American companies could even be called Saudi-Arabian (considering the large investements they did in the US)

Airbus is a genuine European company, founded on the principle of European cooperation, initially between the UK, Germany, France and The Netherlands (yes, Fokker was part of the A300, but eventually they backed out, because DASA was making them deliver fuselage sections under cost price)

[Edited 2007-07-31 14:32:35]
 
SEPilot
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RE: 787 Next Air Force One?

Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:39 pm

Maybe they're for Nancy Pelosi?  duck 
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ebj1248650
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RE: 787 Next Air Force One?

Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:06 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 12):
Yes, there are still a few VC-135Cs in the inventory (in Hawaii and Europe, IIRC). But, there is no need to replace these airplanes.

Would you elaborate on why there is no need to replace these planes? Low airframe time? Might using the 787 for the SAM mission in Europe be an image enhancement measure? VC-135 is a dependable airplane, to be sure, but reflects the past. 787 for SAM purposes reflects the present and future. Bear in mind we're talking government thinking and government spending. It's not entirely beyond the realm of possiblity.
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