PlayLoud
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U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:32 pm

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article...._id=10&categ_id=2&article_id=84187

Quote:
A senior Israeli government source said that under the defense package, the United States agreed to sell the Jewish state the new generation F-35 fighter jet, advanced bombs and laser-guided missiles.
 
Lumberton
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:48 pm

At least the US Government hasn't given them the F-22 -- yet!

Quote:
The aid boost to Israel has been widely seen as a US bid to help allay Israeli concerns over a package of arms sales, that could be worth some $20 billion over the next decade, which Washington is preparing for Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
PADSpot
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:07 pm

Not really a surprise ... if they sell it to Turkey they will sell it to Israel.
 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:06 pm

Stay tuned for more news on mid-east defense sales. There's a news report that Russia and Iran have concluded a deal for 250 SU-30s, plus tankers. Naturally, the Arab countries will want F-35s to counter this threat. And Israel? Undoubtedly they, and their enormous lobby in the U.S., will demand the F-22.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:53 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 3):
Undoubtedly they, and their enormous lobby in the U.S., will demand the F-22.

And they undoubtedly (at least in my mind) will get it.

Honestly, though, I don't think Isreal would need the F-22 to counter the threat of Iranian SU-30s. A similarly sized fleet of F-35's in Isralie hands should be sufficient.
 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:02 pm

Quoting RaginMav (Reply 4):
I don't think Isreal would need the F-22 t

It ain't the SU-30s from Iran. It's these:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 3):
Naturally, the Arab countries will want F-35s to counter this threat.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
RaginMav
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:20 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 5):
It ain't the SU-30s from Iran. It's these

Ah ha! Forgive my incompetence, that was fairly obvious. I need more coffee.
 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:44 am

Quoting RaginMav (Reply 6):
I need more coffee.

Believe me, brother, I've been there!  Big grin

Wouldn't it be ironic if the Russian sale to Iran proves to be a sales catylst for the F-35? India? Pakistan? UAE? Kuwait? Saudi Arabia? Egypt?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:55 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 3):
Stay tuned for more news on mid-east defense sales. There's a news report that Russia and Iran have concluded a deal for 250 SU-30s, plus tankers. Naturally, the Arab countries will want F-35s to counter this threat. And Israel? Undoubtedly they, and their enormous lobby in the U.S., will demand the F-22.

Just how effective is the F-35 expected to be in the air superiority and/or interceptor role? I've been under the impression it's designed to be a fighter-bomber first with secondary air-to-air capability. Does it have capabilities that would allow it to go head-to-head with the likes of the SU-30 or SU-35 and come out the winner?
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:03 am

I believe the case for the F-35 vs SU's are that the Sukhoi's would never see it coming due to the stealth capabilities of the F-35. In terms of pure speed and maneuverability....who knows? (Someone answer that please!)
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:25 am

Perhaps Israel should order a mix of F-35A's and F-35Bs, since Israel is such a small country within range of ballistics missiles from Iran their airfields are vulnerable to attack. They can move their F-35Bs to makeshift airfields away from hardened targets to prevent loss from a ballistics missile attack on an airfield.
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:47 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 3):
Undoubtedly they, and their enormous lobby in the U.S., will demand the F-22.

I suppose I'm part of that enormous lobby, but God promised to Abraham that he would "bless those that bless you and curse those that curse you." That promise has been literally fulfilled for about 4,000 years and I want to stay on the blessing side of it. Whatever Israel wants we should sell them, and if they can't afford it we should give it to them. They're the only true friend we have in the area, and perhaps in the world.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Wed Aug 01, 2007 3:25 am

Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 9):
I believe the case for the F-35 vs SU's are that the Sukhoi's would never see it coming due to the stealth capabilities of the F-35. In terms of pure speed and maneuverability....who knows? (Someone answer that please!)

Contrary to what you may hear, especially from some of our "if it's American-made, it's overrated" colleagues here on A.Net, I believe that the F-35 was designed to counter Russian fourth generation fighters, such as the SU-27/30 and latest MiGs.
I have no doubt that if anyone is going to prove how well the design is against finest of Russian metal, it'll be the Israelis.

[Edited 2007-07-31 20:26:16]
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Wed Aug 01, 2007 3:51 am

Quoting RaginMav (Reply 4):
Honestly, though, I don't think Isreal would need the F-22 to counter the threat of Iranian SU-30s. A similarly sized fleet of F-35's in Isralie hands should be sufficient.

When you go to war, you don't want "sufficient", you want overkill.
 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:33 am

Quoting Silentbob (Reply 13):
When you go to war, you don't want "sufficient", you want overkill

Yes, well, we (America) want overkill over the rest of the world. And for that reason, the F-22 should stay in our hip pocket, at least until we have 'the next big thing.' So, IMHO, the F-35 will just have to suffice.
 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:39 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 11):
They're the only true friend we have in the area, and perhaps in the world.

I would have thought that the UK, Canada, Australia, Japan and others are "friends" of the US as well (considering that most of these countries have spilled their blood fighting alongside US forces on many occasions).  sarcastic 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:45 am

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 12):
I have no doubt that if anyone is going to prove how well the design is against finest of Russian metal, it'll be the Israelis.

Huh? Last time the Israelis shot something down must haven been somewhere in the 80s? And even then they mostly fought against 70s Russian metal manned with poorly trained crews. If you want that kind of test, you should sell F-35s to someone who has a good chance to fight a nation that really flies modern Russian aircraft, trains its crews properly and additionally can bring in all the Command/Control/AWACS stuff that contributed most to US air superiority since after Vietnam. I can only see Russia, China and India here, hence sell them to Pakistan or Taiwan to get a test.

Quoting Silentbob (Reply 13):
When you go to war, you don't want "sufficient", you want overkill.

No, you want overkill so that you don't NEED to go to war. Any other logic is sick.

Quoting RaginMav (Reply 14):
Yes, well, we (America) want overkill over the rest of the world.

Really amiable ...
 
PlayLoud
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:42 am

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 8):
Just how effective is the F-35 expected to be in the air superiority and/or interceptor role? I've been under the impression it's designed to be a fighter-bomber first with secondary air-to-air capability. Does it have capabilities that would allow it to go head-to-head with the likes of the SU-30 or SU-35 and come out the winner?

From the information available, I believe the F-35 will be the 2nd best AA fighter in the world (behind the Raptor). Its combination of stealth, and a very advanced and capable RADAR will likely give it the first shot in a conflict. It is also highly maneuverable (9g with full internal load) should it find itself in a knife fight.

The biggest problem the F-35 has (in terms of AA capability) that I can see, is the fact that currently it can only carry 4 AA missiles internally. If you are flying against a large number of enemy planes, it may be desirable to load up some missiles externally. However, this will compromise the high level of stealth that the F-35 enjoys.
 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:30 am

Quoting HanginOut (Reply 15):
I would have thought that the UK, Canada, Australia, Japan and others are "friends" of the US as well (considering that most of these countries have spilled their blood fighting alongside US forces on many occasions).

Iran was a staunch ally at one point as well. You never know what may change over time.

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 16):
No, you want overkill so that you don't NEED to go to war. Any other logic is sick.

Anyone who wants to go to war is sick. However, there are going to be times that war is a necessity. Not believing that is delusional. I do agree that having an unsurmountable advantage tends to reduce the likelihood that you need to go to war.

As an aside, it is interesting to note that the US has never used its full military capabilities in any conflict since the second world war.
 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:52 am

Of course Israel will get the F-22 as well as the F-35. Their Israel Lobby has a stranglehold on our government and would creat a s**tstorm if we refused.

My opinion is that Israel should not get them because they cannot be trusted with keeping technology which we give them to themselves. I mean they gave the Chinese loads of technology regarding Nuclear Ballistic missiles, some of it they got from us!!! That's an outright betrayal, they gave our technology to an enemy of ours, or a quasi-enemy.

Of course others will disagree with me, but that's my opinion.

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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:52 am

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 19):
My opinion is that Israel should not get them because they cannot be trusted with keeping technology which we give them to themselves.

Are you sure that your haven't arrived at your opinion because of other reasons?  Smile
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PlayLoud
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:12 am

Given Israel's history of selling our tech, I rather just let them buy the F-35, which was designed from the beginning to protect sensitive technologies. Israeli pilots are second to none, and I don't think they will have any problems defending themselves with the F-35.

If we can't trust Japan with the Raptor, how can we trust Israel?
 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:39 am

Quoting Silentbob (Reply 18):
Iran was a staunch ally at one point as well. You never know what may change over time.

While it is true that your allies change over time, you're confusing client states or friends of convenience that are propped up or used as a bulwark by the US Government against their enemies/competitors, with their "allies". They may use the terminology "ally" when talking about such countries, but in reality they're client states/bulwarks. (e.g. Would you really describe Saudi Arabia as an ally or a client state/bulwark against Iran and general instability in the Middle East.)

I would argue that the UK, Canada, and Australia have been consistently allied and friendly with the US for generations, you can't say that about many other countries in the world (including Israel) as I would argue that a true ally would be willing to shed blood alongside American combat forces. So your example of Iran isn't really valid in this context. What it does show is that bulwarks/friends of convenience can come back to haunt you (e.g. Iran, the Taliban in Afghanistan, etc.).

Also, I would argue that only your closest friends and allies will disagree with you but can almost always be counted on in the end. For example, while Canada disagreed with the US policy toward Iraq, we didn't let that disagreement (which at times was quite poisonous) destroy our overall relationship. Afghanistan is a prime example of this. We have Canadian troops fighting and dying alongside American forces against the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. You can't say that about many other so called allies of the US (just for the record the only NATO allies that are willing to do the fighting in Afghanistan are the UK, Canada, the Netherlands - there's also the Australians, but they're not NATO)!
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:13 am

Chewy,

Don't question my loyalty as an American... I am loyal to the ideals and constitution of my country.


Playloud

My point exactly
 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:02 pm

Quoting Silentbob (Reply 13):
When you go to war, you don't want "sufficient", you want overkill.

Exactly. You don't want a fair fight.

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 16):
No, you want overkill so that you don't NEED to go to war. Any other logic is sick.

Exactly, but if you have to fight you want to have the biggest stick.

Quoting Playloud (Reply 21):
Given Israel's history of selling our tech, I rather just let them buy the F-35, which was designed from the beginning to protect sensitive technologies

In that light I actually agree with that.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:18 pm

Quoting HanginOut (Reply 22):
Would you really describe Saudi Arabia as an ally or a client state/bulwark against Iran and general instability in the Middle East.)

Actually, I would consider Saudi Arabia a major source of funding for militant islamic fundamentalists.

Quoting HanginOut (Reply 22):
While it is true that your allies change over time, you're confusing client states or friends of convenience that are propped up or used as a bulwark by the US Government against their enemies/competitors, with their "allies".

Not confusing them at all, though I do agree that there are different levels of support one gets from their allies. If we were to do something stupid (as a nation) and elect another president as bad at foreign relations as this one, I can see more of our support erode quite dramatically.
 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:22 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 16):
Huh? Last time the Israelis shot something down must haven been somewhere in the 80s? And even then they mostly fought against 70s Russian metal manned with poorly trained crews. If you want that kind of test, you should sell F-35s to someone who has a good chance to fight a nation that really flies modern Russian aircraft

Huh?

And for historical perspective, the Israelis shot down Syrian MiG-29s in the mid 90s, I believe.



Iran is buying 30 SU-30MK from the Russians. Do you really believe that F-35s in Israeli hands can be entertained as a fair fight, even given the sophistication of the SU-30? Come on... I've read your stuff. You're one of the more knowledgeable contributors a.net. You understood my meaning and I suspect YOU don't even really believe this statement...


Sounds to me you were just looking for something to disagree with, with all due respect.

Tell you what... Isreali F-35A versus Iranian SU-30s? I'll take that bet with you any day. How much money are you willing to put up?
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F27Friendship
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:28 pm

another vivid example of exremely poor long term strategic planning. When will US govmnts ever learn from their mistakes?? You all remember that Iran got F-14s (or even worse, a rumoured american nuke) under the Shah, while shortly after, you didn;t want them to have those at all (because of a regime change).

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 7):
Wouldn't it be ironic if the Russian sale to Iran proves to be a sales catylst for the F-35? India? Pakistan? UAE? Kuwait? Saudi Arabia? Egypt?

Indeed, the laughing third will be Lockheed Martin and all other industrial partners all over the world (including the Netherlands). It's definitely good for industry (and for my career opportunities for that matter)

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 8):
Just how effective is the F-35 expected to be in the air superiority and/or interceptor role? I've been under the impression it's designed to be a fighter-bomber first with secondary air-to-air capability. Does it have capabilities that would allow it to go head-to-head with the likes of the SU-30 or SU-35 and come out the winner?



Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 9):
In terms of pure speed and maneuverability....who knows? (Someone answer that please!)

In BVR the F-35 will most definitely be superior because of its stealth and sensor networking capabilities etc. In dog-fights the Sukhois (especially those with axis-symmetric thrust vector control) will make a tough adversary. Obviously it will not come to that most of the time, but the F-35 should prevent this from ever happening.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 11):
I suppose I'm part of that enormous lobby, but God promised to Abraham that he would "bless those that bless you and curse those that curse you." That promise has been literally fulfilled for about 4,000 years and I want to stay on the blessing side of it. Whatever Israel wants we should sell them, and if they can't afford it we should give it to them. They're the only true friend we have in the area, and perhaps in the world.

Realy, could you keep this crap out of this forum please?!

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 12):
I have no doubt that if anyone is going to prove how well the design is against finest of Russian metal, it'll be the Israelis.

The Israeli's are masters of improvisation. They will try to get their own systems in the F-35 if they have the chance. I hardly think that Iranians with some new SU-30s will be a threat to them. This is all politics and the biggest result will be an even stronger military-industrial complex.

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 16):
hence sell them to Pakistan

What a stupid move would that be.

Quoting Playloud (Reply 17):
From the information available, I believe the F-35 will be the 2nd best AA fighter in the world (behind the Raptor). Its combination of stealth, and a very advanced and capable RADAR will likely give it the first shot in a conflict. It is also highly maneuverable (9g with full internal load) should it find itself in a knife fight.

In BVR yes, dogfight or in the gray area between BVR and dogfight, NO. Keep in mind it cant carry sidewinders internally (which the F-22 can), which is the most important weapon in short-medium range AA combat.

Quoting Playloud (Reply 17):
The biggest problem the F-35 has (in terms of AA capability) that I can see, is the fact that currently it can only carry 4 AA missiles internally. If you are flying against a large number of enemy planes, it may be desirable to load up some missiles externally. However, this will compromise the high level of stealth that the F-35 enjoys.

Exactly, even more important, it can not carry sidewinders internally, which you want if there is a larger enemy air asset around.

Quoting Silentbob (Reply 18):
Iran was a staunch ally at one point as well. You never know what may change over time.

yep, best example of why this deal is a bad idea
 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:42 pm

Quoting HanginOut (Reply 15):

I would have thought that the UK, Canada, Australia, Japan and others are "friends" of the US as well (considering that most of these countries have spilled their blood fighting alongside US forces on many occasions).

The next major fight is already here, and it is against militant Islam. Israel is the ONLY nation (including the US) that really understands this. All of Europe is doing its best to hide their heads in the sand and pretend that it isn't there, and thus cannot be counted on. Canada is doing the same. David Howard sees it, but from what I read in the Australian press, much of the country doesn't. Tony Blair did, but he got the boot. That is why I said that Israel is our only true friend. As to Japan, they have had no direct confrontations (there aren't too many radical Muslims in Japan) so I'm not sure where they stand. They have not been very eager to get involved in conflicts that do not directly threaten them, although they have been helpful in Afghanistan.

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 16):

No, you want overkill so that you don't NEED to go to war. Any other logic is sick.

This is the "peace through strength" theory, and it is very true. Almost every war started because one side underestimated the will or capability of the other. The best way to avoid war is to make it very clear to any aggressor that you can destroy them with ease. The problem now is that the type of warfare we are facing is not conventional with armies facing each other on the field of battle, but individuals who believe that God will reward them for killing anyone who disagrees with them by any means they can come up with.

Quoting Silentbob (Reply 18):

Iran was a staunch ally at one point as well. You never know what may change over time.

Very true.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 19):
I mean they gave the Chinese loads of technology regarding Nuclear Ballistic missiles, some of it they got from us!!!

I did not realize this; I thought they got it from Bill Clinton. I would be interested in details. In spite of this, for the reasons I have stated above, especially in my first post, I would give Israel and only Israel everything they want, even if they have at times misused it.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:58 pm

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 27):
Quoting PADSpot (Reply 16):
hence sell them to Pakistan

What a stupid move would that be.

As stupid as we Americans are, I doubt we're that stupid...  sarcastic 

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 27):
The Israeli's are masters of improvisation. They will try to get their own systems in the F-35 if they have the chance. I hardly think that Iranians with some new SU-30s will be a threat to them. This is all politics and the biggest result will be an even stronger military-industrial complex.

Ah yes, the great "Military/Industrial Complex" conspiricy again...  old  Or is it simpler? Maybe just aiding a friendly goverment in a troubled part of the world... Hummmmm.....  scratchchin 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:21 pm

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 29):
Ah yes, the great "Military/Industrial Complex" conspiricy again... Or is it simpler? Maybe just aiding a friendly goverment in a troubled part of the world... Hummmmm.....

LOL! No conspiricy at all! Industry will benefit from this, how is that a conspiricy? Ofcourse it is not only because industry wants it (they are not that powerful), but they'd be the last to say that their products are not needed, now wouldn't they?

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 28):
The next major fight is already here, and it is against militant Islam. Israel is the ONLY nation (including the US) that really understands this. All of Europe is doing its best to hide their heads in the sand and pretend that it isn't there, and thus cannot be counted on. Canada is doing the same. David Howard sees it, but from what I read in the Australian press, much of the country doesn't. Tony Blair did, but he got the boot. That is why I said that Israel is our only true friend. As to Japan, they have had no direct confrontations (there aren't too many radical Muslims in Japan) so I'm not sure where they stand. They have not been very eager to get involved in conflicts that do not directly threaten them, although they have been helpful in Afghanistan.

you are living in a dreamworld my friend, snap out of it..
 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:28 pm

Quoting Playloud (Reply 21):
If we can't trust Japan with the Raptor, how can we trust Israel?

I don't think we're going to "trust" anyone with the F-22, nor should the United States. "Trusting" or not "trusting" another government may an be unfair way to categorize it though.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 30):
Quoting SEPilot (Reply 28):
The next major fight is already here, and it is against militant Islam. Israel is the ONLY nation (including the US) that really understands this. All of Europe is doing its best to hide their heads in the sand and pretend that it isn't there, and thus cannot be counted on. Canada is doing the same. David Howard sees it, but from what I read in the Australian press, much of the country doesn't. Tony Blair did, but he got the boot. That is why I said that Israel is our only true friend. As to Japan, they have had no direct confrontations (there aren't too many radical Muslims in Japan) so I'm not sure where they stand. They have not been very eager to get involved in conflicts that do not directly threaten them, although they have been helpful in Afghanistan.

you are living in a dreamworld my friend, snap out of it..

This thread has denigrated into an ugly political circus, with disparaging tones and personal denigration, which I find very disturbing. I have suggested that the Mods lock this thread before it gets anymore out of hand. From what I've read over the years here on A.Net, whenever U.S/Isreali ties are the subject, the course of those discussions is very predictable.

From what I've read, SEpilots opinions are based in his personal Faith. You may or may not agree with his opinions. But attacking him personally is beneath you. Had someone attacked you personally, I would be among the first to say something about it, whether I agree with your points or not.

Can we refrain from this?

[Edited 2007-08-01 15:29:20]
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:34 pm

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 31):
This thread has denigrated into an ugly political circus, with disparaging tones and personal denigration, which I find very disturbing. I have suggested that the Mods lock this thread before it gets anymore out of hand. From what I've read over the years here on A.Net, whenever U.S/Isreali ties are the subject, the course of those discussions is very predictable.

From what I've read, SEpilots opinions are based in his personal Faith. You may or may not agree with his opinions. But attacking him personally is beneath you. Had someone attacked you personally, I would be among the first to say something about it, whether I agree with your points or not.

Can we refrain from this?

I apologize if what I posted is deamed offensive. This was not my intention. My personal opinion is just that his conclusions are extremely weird for me to perceive. Next time I will try to communicate this more subtle..

I hope now the original discussion can proceed
 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:04 pm

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 32):
I apologize if what I posted is deamed offensive. This was not my intention. My personal opinion is just that his conclusions are extremely weird for me to perceive. Next time I will try to communicate this more subtle..

Personally, I take no offense.

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 31):
From what I've read, SEpilots opinions are based in his personal Faith. You may or may not agree with his opinions. But attacking him personally is beneath you. Had someone attacked you personally, I would be among the first to say something about it, whether I agree with your points or not.

This is largely correct. I totally agree that many may disagree with it, and that is entirely their right. I did not perceive any personal attack at all, just disagreement with my position, which is what discussion is all about. I have no problem with anything that anyone has posted in response to my posts.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 30):
you are living in a dreamworld my friend, snap out of it..

To get down to the issue, time will tell who is living in a dreamworld.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:16 pm

I sincerely hope this thread can continue. Geopolitics is an integral part of military sales, particularly as involves high performance aircraft. Difficult to divorce the one from the other.

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 31):
From what I've read, SEpilots opinions are based in his personal Faith. You may or may not agree with his opinions. But attacking him personally is beneath you. Had someone attacked you personally, I would be among the first to say something about it, whether I agree with your points or not.
Can we refrain from this?

 checkmark 
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:30 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 33):
Personally, I take no offense.

I am glad you didn't.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 33):
To get down to the issue, time will tell who is living in a dreamworld.

Fair enough.

However, if anyone's personal opinion concerning the US/Israel relation is formed by their faith, I don't think there is a point in bringing in it into this particular discussion or this forum. It is not something which can be discussed, we can merely not share the same faith, so there is no point in discussing it, because there is no way we would ever convince each other. (and that is something what I would not even want to do, even if I could)
 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:05 am

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 35):

However, if anyone's personal opinion concerning the US/Israel relation is formed by their faith, I don't think there is a point in bringing in it into this particular discussion or this forum. It is not something which can be discussed, we can merely not share the same faith, so there is no point in discussing it, because there is no way we would ever convince each other. (and that is something what I would not even want to do, even if I could)

While part what you say is true, everyone's faith is an issue in practically all their opinions, whether they acknowledge it or not. I usually do not bring it up, but I felt it necessary in this issue because it is central to my opinions on it. If you examine your own opinions you will find that they all emanate from your fundamental beliefs, whatever they may be. Bringing them into the open should not be a point of contention; I feel it gives others a better understanding of exactly where you are coming from.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:22 am

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 12):
I believe that the F-35 was designed to counter Russian fourth generation fighters, such as the SU-27/30 and latest MiGs.

I don't want to explicitly negate that sentence, but it was not primarily made to fight 4thGen fighters in the first place. It is a truly multi role and muti-dimensional aircraft conceived a successor for F-16s, early F-18s and Harriers. It is certainly great and brings lot of new feature and unprecedented flexibility. But If I had to fight a modern Su-30 without all the C3 and AWACS stuff at hand, I would choose a F-22 or Eurofighter over an F-35 at any day. It simply misses things that you need to be a superior fighter. Speed in the first place.

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 12):
"if it's American-made, it's overrated"

I know you did not referred to me here. But I'd like to take that up and say that I consider "Stealth" as overrated (made by whoever!!!!), because it leads people to arrogantly ignore the fact that there is more than one way to detect aerial targets. And and that juncture Russians are still technology leaders (IR tracking and networked radar.) In Air-to-Air weaponry they are superior anyway.

I do not say that the F-35 is bad and would lose or something. But if you are sitting in one and you are being IR-tracked by a Su-30 from 80nm and being fired upon by a command guided weapon, you do have a problem. No matter whether you are radar-wise stealthy, have top-end ECM systems or whatever else. You are way too far away to employ AMRAAMs (which suck anyway) and a F-35 even has got a speed problem when fleeing. I don't want to provoke you here. A Su-30 is stil RCS-wise large like barn door and its ECM systems are not comparable to western ones, but I just want to show that every technology has its limits. Denying or even ignoring these limits is life-threatening, can be deadly and is at least dumb.

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 26):

And for historical perspective, the Israelis shot down Syrian MiG-29s in the mid 90s, I believe.

The last "real" Israeli air victory was achieved on 20th November 1985. A Syrian MiG-23 was jointly shot down by an Israeli F-15C flown by Avner Nave and a F-15D piloted by Yuval Ben-Zur and Ofer Patz.

That being 22 years ago, Israel does not have significant numbers of air-combat experienced pilots anymore.
There are no records that Israel ever shot down a MiG-29.

Believing in myths that stem from past days is somewhat dangerous. Enemy airplanes don't fall out of the sky because you have been good 20, 30 oder 40 years ago. Myths might help to prevent a war, but they don't help to win one. In my opinion the fact that the Israeli proved so tremendously successful over the years, has to be widely credited to other facts than the mere quality of its pilots, organization, ethics or doctrine. The Isreali Air force was not seriously challenged since 1967. Anything that came afterwards was shooting clay-pigeons at best ... the myth remained however.

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 26):
Iran is buying 30 SU-30MK from the Russians

Let's stay with the facts: There are news reports and rumors that Iran would like to buy 250 Su-30s. Nothing has ACTUALLY happened to this point and there are tons of open questions.

But you do know that Israel and Iran are separated by roughly 2000km and several sovereign countries in between? I don't see where exactly this fight should take place?

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 26):
Do you really believe that F-35s in Israeli hands can be entertained as a fair fight, even given the sophistication of the SU-30? Come on... I've read your stuff. You're one of the more knowledgeable contributors a.net. You understood my meaning and I suspect YOU don't even really believe this statement...

Thanks for the flowers, but which statement do you refer to?

I do believe that if you seek a test for given piece of technology you should choose the most challenging environment you can find. And if you seek comparison with a Su-30 you should choose a competitor which can really take it to its limits, just as you know how to take your fighter to its limits. And at the moment there are no other Su-30 operators than Russia, China and India that could do that. Any other test of that sort would be self-delusion ...

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 27):
What a stupid move would that be.

I referred that solely to the test argument. Of course they are safer places for a new technology.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 28):
. Almost every war started because one side underestimated the will or capability of the other. The best way to avoid war is to make it very clear to any aggressor that you can destroy them with ease. The problem now is that the type of warfare we are facing is not conventional with armies facing each other on the field of battle, but individuals who believe that God will reward them for killing anyone who disagrees with them by any means they can come up with.

 checkmark  ... with minor excpetions.
 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:14 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 37):
I know you did not referred to me here.

I didn't, but we both know who that is....

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 37):
The last "real" Israeli air victory was achieved on 20th November 1985. A Syrian MiG-23 was jointly shot down by an Israeli F-15C flown by Avner Nave and a F-15D piloted by Yuval Ben-Zur and Ofer Patz.

You're correct. My bad. The data I was looking at is too small for my over-40 eyes to focus in on anymore. So I misread that.  Wink

Still doesn't change my opinion nor does it negate the bet I made with you. The Israelis don't have the F-35 yet either... No one does. It's obvious to me that we both know the outcome of that wager. If Iran had the full compliment of SU-30s TODAY, the IAF with it's F-15Cs & Is would still defeat then handily... And my opinion is that would be over Iranian airspace.

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 16):
Huh? Last time the Israelis shot something down must haven been somewhere in the 80s? And even then they mostly fought against 70s Russian metal manned with poorly trained crews. If you want that kind of test, you should sell F-35s to someone who has a good chance to fight a nation that really flies modern Russian aircraft, trains its crews properly and additionally can bring in all the Command/Control/AWACS stuff that contributed most to US air superiority since after Vietnam. I can only see Russia, China and India here, hence sell them to Pakistan or Taiwan to get a test.



Quoting PADSpot (Reply 37):
Thanks for the flowers, but which statement do you refer to?

This one. I don't give out flowers, as you refer to them.

In wartime conditions, you don't pick your adversaries, their weapons nor have the luxury to "test" them. All we have is history. And it seems to me that history has made it's conculsions quite clearly.

I call them as I see them. If you took that as sign of repect for your knowledge, then my intentions were right on the money, huh?
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:34 am

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 23):
Don't question my loyalty as an American... I am loyal to the ideals and constitution of my country.

I try not to judge people in that manner. However, your past posts indicate, to me at least, that you are far from being an Israeli sympathizer and I suspect that your opinion that Israel shouldn't have these fighters isn't merely because they will give the technology to the Chinese.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:44 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 37):
But If I had to fight a modern Su-30 without all the C3 and AWACS stuff at hand, I would choose a F-22 or Eurofighter over an F-35 at any day. It simply misses things that you need to be a superior fighter. Speed in the first place.

I am not convinced.. Can you tell me more about the SU-30 IR capability, and why you think it would detect an F-35 before it would see the SU-30?

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 37):
That being 22 years ago, Israel does not have significant numbers of air-combat experienced pilots anymore.
There are no records that Israel ever shot down a MiG-29.

I believe the only ones who ever shot down a MiG-29 was the Royal Netherlands Air Force, with an F-16A-MLU in 1999 over Serbia.

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 37):
But you do know that Israel and Iran are separated by roughly 2000km and several sovereign countries in between? I don't see where exactly this fight should take place?

I agree with your analysis, there is no real additional threat
 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:16 am

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 40):
I believe the only ones who ever shot down a MiG-29 was the Royal Netherlands Air Force, with an F-16A-MLU in 1999 over Serbia.

Weren't some shot down during the first Gulf War?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:36 am

Quote:

Weren't some shot down during the first Gulf War?

Not by the Israelis, but some were shot down by coalition forces.

http://webcom.com/~amraam/aakill.html

[Edited 2007-08-02 00:37:30]
 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:57 am

Quoting Playloud (Reply 42):
but some were shot down by coalition forces.

Thanks, that's what I thought. Great link by the way.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:51 am

A bit off topic, but I believe I heard that no F-15 has ever been shot down in air-to-air combat. Does anyone know if this is true?
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:53 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 44):
A bit off topic, but I believe I heard that no F-15 has ever been shot down in air-to-air combat. Does anyone know if this is true?

Absolutely true.
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:32 pm

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 40):
Can you tell me more about the SU-30 IR capability, and why you think it would detect an F-35 before it would see the SU-30?

I did not write, that it would be detected earlier by the Su-30s IR system than it would be able to detect the Su-30 by radar. And that is definitely not the case!!!. I wrote that it would be detected before it gets within weapon range. I know the the EF's IRST- system quite well, which was built on the insights that the western gained when it became access to MiG-29s. The Russians develop this technology since 30 years, while the western world only have a couple of years experience. The EF's IR sensor has about 80nm range. EADS advertises it with "the about the range of an F-16 radar", but 80nm has been explicitly stated. The MiG-29's IT-sensor has 30-40nm range. The Su-30 IR system is also brand new and about three times larger than the EF's sensor. In IR-terms size translates into performance because the the sensitivity of important parts (sensor, cooling elements) is size-dependent. Thus one can safely say that it has at least the physical range of the EF's PIRATE-sensor, likely much more depending on atmospheric and weather conditions.

The real problem is that the Russians have weapons to make use of that advantage. The western world has not.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 40):
I believe the only ones who ever shot down a MiG-29 was the Royal Netherlands Air Force, with an F-16A-MLU in 1999 over Serbia.

I think one was shot down by a Dutch F-16s, three other were shot down by US fighters. The US also shot down a couple of MiG-29s in Desert Storm.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 44):
A bit off topic, but I believe I heard that no F-15 has ever been shot down in air-to-air combat. Does anyone know if this is true?

I was thinking about if one was ever lost to ground fire, but I don't recall any occasion?! I think not ...
 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:45 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 46):
I did not write, that it would be detected earlier by the Su-30s IR system than it would be able to detect the Su-30 by radar. And that is definitely not the case!!!. I wrote that it would be detected before it gets within weapon range. I know the the EF's IRST- system quite well, which was built on the insights that the western gained when it became access to MiG-29s. The Russians develop this technology since 30 years, while the western world only have a couple of years experience. The EF's IR sensor has about 80nm range. EADS advertises it with "the about the range of an F-16 radar", but 80nm has been explicitly stated. The MiG-29's IT-sensor has 30-40nm range. The Su-30 IR system is also brand new and about three times larger than the EF's sensor. In IR-terms size translates into performance because the the sensitivity of important parts (sensor, cooling elements) is size-dependent. Thus one can safely say that it has at least the physical range of the EF's PIRATE-sensor, likely much more depending on atmospheric and weather conditions.

The real problem is that the Russians have weapons to make use of that advantage. The western world has not.

So if I understand correctly: JSF can see further, but doesn't have the weapon to make the kill, while the SU-30 has a smaller range with its sensors, but weapons to match that range ( 80 nm ?!).

I'm still not convinced that the JSF would suddenly be very IR visible. As far as I know stealth is not limited to radar.

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 46):
I think one was shot down by a Dutch F-16s, three other were shot down by US fighters.

I found a link with a table

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 46):
I was thinking about if one was ever lost to ground fire, but I don't recall any occasion?! I think not ...

No single F-15 has ever been lost in combat as far as I can recall or find
 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:52 pm

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 47):
JSF can see further,

With its radar, yes. And a Su-30 is a target you can't miss radar-wise.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 47):
while the SU-30 has a smaller range with its sensors

IR-wise yes, radar-wise a clear statement is hardly possible because there are plenty of different radars in use with Su-30s. Russians have put much efforts in enabling radars to reveal stealth targets. They have some gimmicks that are sort of unique in that regard. Due to its size you could put a more capable radar on the Su than on a F-35 and there are nations that are capable of building such radars. For instance there is very little known about the Shedian-10, the latest Chinese radar for the Su-27/30 air frame. But I seriously doubt that any of these radars is capable of detecting a F-35 before it comes into weapon range.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 47):
I'm still not convinced that the JSF would suddenly be very IR visible. As far as I know stealth is not limited to radar.

All modern fighters try to reduce its IR-signature, but technological and practical means to do that are still very limited. There has been lot's of work done in preventing the aircraft's skin to heat up due to air friction, but you still have one to two multi-megawatt torches in the back and nowadays aircraft avionics produce lots of heat. Another issue you cannot counter is that the temperature in lets say 12.000m is about -60 degrees C°. You had to actually cool down your heat emissions to make it IR-invisible. On the other hand modern IR system recognize differences in temperatures of less than a tenth of a Kelvin. Let's put it that way: You can reduce your IR signature by a couple of dimensions, but sensors are still better by a couple dimensions. Even if an airplane would be IR-stealthy it leaves a heat signature, like a contrail. If you have a contrail it's eays to find it's origin. That's a little piece of software ...
 
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RE: U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel

Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:57 pm

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 47):
No single F-15 has ever been lost in combat as far as I can recall or find

Two F-15E's were lost in Desert Storm. One to AAA and one to a SAM (SA-2).

http://webcom.com/~amraam/aaloss.html

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