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Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:00 am

Airbus rolls out first A330 for USAF KC-X programme.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-a330-for-usaf-kc-x-programme.html

Airbus has completed assembly of the A330-200 earmarked to become the first development KC-30 for the US Air Force if Northrop Grumman wins the KC-X tanker competition, scheduled to be decided on 31 October.

The standard production aircraft, Airbus serial number 871, is in ground testing at Toulouse and will be ready to begin military modification in the USA in November, if the KC-30 is selected over Boeing’s KC-767.

Northrop says it decided to proceed with assembly of the aircraft, designated SDD-1, ahead of a downselect to underline the benefits of basing its tanker proposal on a commercial production line and supply chain.




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Blackbird
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:08 am

Will Northrop modify the FBW as necessary to meet their personal requirements? Or will they use the FBW software exactly as is from Airbus?

Andrea Kent
 
PADSpot
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:33 am

I was under the impression the KC-30 would be based on the A330F? Or do they built the prototype based on a normal A330 to get it ready early enough? What about the cargo gate? Could be become an odd bird, if they need to resell it after they have not got the final order ...
 
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USAF336TFS
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:54 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 2):
I was under the impression the KC-30 would be based on the A330F? Or do they built the prototype based on a normal A330 to get it ready early enough? What about the cargo gate? Could be become an odd bird, if they need to resell it after they have not got the final order ...

There have been conflicting reports about which airframe will ultimately be used, so I share your questions about it. If, as I suspect, the KC-767ADV wins, this particular airframe will be flying for an existing MRTT customer.
I guess they could use it to supply the UK's MoD order.
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SNA350
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:18 am

What are they going to do when the KC 30 doesn't get selected
maybe another customer?

thanks
Aircraft flown: B733, B734, B736, B737, B738, B744, B752, B763, B772, A319, A320, A321, A343, A346, Do328, CRJ7, E190
 
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moo
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:34 am

Quoting SNA350 (Reply 4):
What are they going to do when the KC 30 doesn't get selected
maybe another customer?

Theres plenty of other customers it can go to, Airbus aren't losing out by doing this.
 
PADSpot
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:38 pm

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 3):
If, as I suspect, the KC-767ADV wins, this particular airframe will be flying for an existing MRTT customer.
I guess they could use it to supply the UK's MoD order.



Quoting Moo (Reply 5):

Theres plenty of other customers it can go to, Airbus aren't losing out by doing this.

There are certainly not loosing anything (it's a research effort at least), but in case they apply any non-reversible modifications to it (such as a main floor cargo gate), they cannot sell it to anyone who intends to lease it out for airline purposes (just as the RAF plans to do).
 
saintsman
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:54 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 6):
There are certainly not loosing anything (it's a research effort at least), but in case they apply any non-reversible modifications to it (such as a main floor cargo gate), they cannot sell it to anyone who intends to lease it out for airline purposes (just as the RAF plans to do).

Just a small point. The RAF do not plan to lease out the aircraft. The aircraft are being provided to the RAF by a private company, AirTanker. The RAF do not require all the aircraft that have been converted unless there is some sort of additional conflict etc, so the 'spare' aircraft will be de-roled and leased out by AirTanker. The revenue that this will bring in will subsidise the overall tanker contract. There will be a clause in the leases for instant recall should the RAF need additional resources.
 
scouseflyer
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:20 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 6):
There are certainly not loosing anything (it's a research effort at least), but in case they apply any non-reversible modifications to it (such as a main floor cargo gate), they cannot sell it to anyone who intends to lease it out for airline purposes (just as the RAF plans to do).

Isn't there a pending order for the A330 tankers for Saudi Arabia so it could go to them.

Anyway it's not totally clear who will own the plane will it be EADS or will it be NG?
 
PADSpot
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:27 pm

Quoting Saintsman (Reply 7):

Just a small point. The RAF do not plan to lease out the aircraft. The aircraft are being provided to the RAF by a private company, AirTanker. The RAF do not require all the aircraft that have been converted unless there is some sort of additional conflict etc, so the 'spare' aircraft will be de-roled and leased out by AirTanker. The revenue that this will bring in will subsidise the overall tanker contract. There will be a clause in the leases for instant recall should the RAF need additional resources.

That is correct, although I knew it, I superficially ran over it. I think I should get myself a coffee ...  Wink
 
Legs
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:39 pm

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 8):
pending order for the A330 tankers for Saudi Arabia

Australia has some KC-30s on order as well, 4 i think, if memory serves
 
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:14 pm

Quoting Legs (Reply 10):
Australia has some KC-30s on order as well, 4 i think, if memory serves

Australia receives A330MRTT with a tail boom in addition to two underwing refueling pods. Apart from the boom and the related equipment they are like the RAF ones ... KC-30s are (were?) supposed to receive a real cargo floor and gate and larger fuel capacity than the MRTTs which are, apart from refueling equipment, in airline configuration.
 
Legs
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:17 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 11):

I stand humbly corrected, thanks for the info
 
747400sp
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:18 am

Will it have a A340 wing, are a stronger A330 wing for wing fueling?
 
PADSpot
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:58 am

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 13):
Will it have a A340 wing, are a stronger A330 wing for wing fueling?

Judged by its structure A340 and A330 share more or less the same wing. That make it so easy to convert A330 to tankers, because there is already a strengthened position, where the A340 would have its outer engines. The A330 wing also has the necessary ducts for the fuel pipes and wiring. There is still some work necessary, but don't need to strengthen anything or make way for pipes.
 
PC12Fan
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:41 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 14):
Quoting 747400sp (Reply 13):
Will it have a A340 wing, are a stronger A330 wing for wing fueling?

Judged by its structure A340 and A330 share more or less the same wing. That make it so easy to convert A330 to tankers, because there is already a strengthened position, where the A340 would have its outer engines. The A330 wing also has the necessary ducts for the fuel pipes and wiring. There is still some work necessary, but don't need to strengthen anything or make way for pipes.

I've wondered about this. Seems to me that two booms could be mounted in place of the out board engines. I played around with distances, and if this were done, two F-22's could refuel simultaneously with a comfortable gap between them. Someone made a point that drag would be a problem, however, in a case of engine failure, would not the drag factor have been engineered in the wing anyways?

Just thinking out loud.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
PADSpot
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:05 am

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 15):
Just thinking out loud.

I wonder whether a position on the outer wing offers sufficient stability to operate a boom. A centerline position is pretty immune against rolling movements along the horizontal axis. I think a boom on the outer wings would need some sort of stabilization.
 
dl767captain
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:00 am

It seems weird to me that the USAF would chose a European plane rather than boeing, their home turf. What are the benefits of the 767 and A330 tankers, and has boeing talked about a 777 or 748 tanker
 
saintsman
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:56 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 14):
Judged by its structure A340 and A330 share more or less the same wing. That make it so easy to convert A330 to tankers, because there is already a strengthened position, where the A340 would have its outer engines. The A330 wing also has the necessary ducts for the fuel pipes and wiring. There is still some work necessary, but don't need to strengthen anything or make way for pipes.

Sorry PADSpot I'm not picking on you but the A340 and A330 wings are only similar in shape. It's a common misconception that they are identical and the A330 wing is already strengthened around the outer engine positions. If you think about it, why would they build a wing with un-neccessary additional weight.

In the early days, EADS were saying that the wings were the same to play down the risk but they always knew that the A330 wing needed a fair bit of work. To fit pods to the wing, significant strengthening is required around the Rib 26 area and a large doubler is also fitted on the lower wing surface. It is though a relatively simple modification. You can see (I hope) half of the doubler on the photo (painted green) just above the orange hoisting bracket.

 
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:33 pm

Quoting Saintsman (Reply 18):

First, thanks for correcting me.

Quoting Saintsman (Reply 18):
why would they build a wing with un-neccessary additional weight.

... to enjoy greater economies of scale in production? If the additional weight is negligible, it can be worthwhile to think about leaving it in order to streamline production.
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:24 pm

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 17):
It seems weird to me that the USAF would chose a European plane rather than boeing, their home turf. What are the benefits of the 767 and A330 tankers, and has boeing talked about a 777 or 748 tanker

It is unsettling that we'd choose a french tanker to fuel our own warplanes. But, government contracts and competition being what they are, I suppose it has to be bid out. Boeing will somehow prevail, IMHO.

The day I take gas from a french-built tanker is the day I get out of the Guard.

DeltaGuy
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:33 pm

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 17):
It seems weird to me that the USAF would chose a European plane rather than boeing, their home turf.

That's a very honest statement and I feel the same for my side of the pond, but the problem that it is not very clever to "define" monopolies of you are at the same time the customer. Boeing (or Airbus rerspectively) could call any price then ...
 
PC12Fan
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:36 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 16):
I wonder whether a position on the outer wing offers sufficient stability to operate a boom. A centerline position is pretty immune against rolling movements along the horizontal axis. I think a boom on the outer wings would need some sort of stabilization.

Hmm, good point. That is something engineers will have to contend with if a flying wing design is adopted. I've seen illustrations of this concept with two outer booms. Still doesn't change the fact that this aircraft would also have a longitudinal axis. Longitudinal boom mount would be the most stable.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
saintsman
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:27 pm

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 20):
The day I take gas from a french-built tanker is the day I get out of the Guard.

The A330 is not built in France, it is assembled there. The KC30 will be assembled in the US.

Would you refuse to ride in cars that are not of US origin too, or not watch on a TV made abroad?

Or is it just France you have a problem with? (understandable  Wink )
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:45 pm

Quoting Saintsman (Reply 23):
Would you refuse to ride in cars that are not of US origin too, or not watch on a TV made abroad?

I've always wanted an Austin Healy, and my dad has a porche....so I love alot of non US cars Big grin

Quoting Saintsman (Reply 23):
The A330 is not built in France, it is assembled there. The KC30 will be assembled in the US.

Dressing the pig up is all it is...bottom line, it is still a French aircraft...just, some rivets applied here in the US to make it seem "American". Airbus is, well, an Airbus, no matter which continent it comes from.

Quoting Saintsman (Reply 23):
Or is it just France you have a problem with? (understandable )

Right on, jolly good ol chap  Smile

DeltaGuy
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PADSpot
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:01 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 24):
and my dad has a porche

It's PorSche!!!  Wow!

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 24):
bottom line, it is still a French aircraft

The wings are made in Britain, much of the fuselage comes from Germany. The landing gear might even be American (Goodrich?!) and the engines come from GE, PW or RR. It's really just assembled there. After all the French even bought your tankers  Silly
 
arluna
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:44 am

Please correct me if I'm wrong but won't the KC30 be assembled in France and then flown to the US to have it's military equipment installed?

If that's the case then it won't be built in the US, merely finished.

J

[Edited 2007-08-03 17:45:53]
 
Lumberton
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:54 am

Quoting Arluna (Reply 26):
Please correct me if I'm wrong

You're not wrong.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
texl1649
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Sat Aug 04, 2007 1:08 am

There are no large commercial aircraft which are remotely "national" today. I'd suggest letting go of that infantile concept.

http://www.northropgrumman.com/kc30/benefits/commitment.html

If your concern as to being built somewhere or another is simply economic impact, the Northrop Alabama facility certainly will employ more folks than keeping the 767 line open for another 8 years to produce the Air Force' tankers, and would certainly open the door for more upside in the future (as in; it would be nice if Northrop Grumman came up with some other assembly work for the Alabama facility. It's not like Boeing is one line away from disappearing from Renton).


The Brookley Industrial Complex encompasses more than 4.5 million square feet of industrial space and is already home to aerospace manufacturing, aircraft maintenance and airfreight businesses. The site includes the Mobile Downtown Airport, which has an existing 9,600 foot long runway.



The KC-30 will be assembled in Mobile, Ala., and create or support more than 25,000 U.S. jobs.

Inside the military, the KC-10 is widely used/preferred in lieu of the alternatives simply because it can also serve as a freighter. The 767 is certainly an improvement in freight capacity over the narrow-body -135s, but the -30 from a purely end-user perspective would be a much preferred aircraft.
 
PADSpot
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:30 am

Quoting TexL1649 (Reply 28):
The KC-30 will be assembled in Mobile, Ala., and create or support more than 25,000 U.S. jobs.

The extent of work being done in the US will depend on the actual order size. If the order is split or its size reduced Airbus will not set up an entire assembly line in Mobile. Such an event would invalidate the business case.

Quoting TexL1649 (Reply 28):
KC-10 is widely used/preferred in lieu of the alternatives simply because it can also serve as a freighter.

That topics popped up before here and ended abruptly with people saying that nowadays the KC-135 very seldomly flies freight, why should the KC-30 do it frequently? And who ships that freight now?
 
Blackbird
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:48 am

Let's hope the Europeans don't design the aircraft with some kind of device that enables them to takeover the plane or something... After some of the Europeans aren't too happy about us dragging on in Iraq.

Andrea Kent
 
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USAF336TFS
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:01 am

Quoting TexL1649 (Reply 28):
There are no large commercial aircraft which are remotely "national" today. I'd suggest letting go of that infantile concept.

http://www.northropgrumman.com/kc30/....html

Ah yes, quotes from NG. A truly unbiased source quoted. The KC-767Adv will have at least 85% U.S. content versus 50 or 65%, depending what day NG is quoted. And that includes the GE produced engines, which if not included reduces the percentage further. That may be "infantile" to you, but I can assure you that it isn't to Congress and the constituencies involved.
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
 
PADSpot
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:10 am

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 30):
Let's hope the Europeans don't design the aircraft with some kind of device that enables them to takeover the plane or something...

??? You're watching the wrong type of movies, I presume.
 
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moo
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:09 am

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 30):
Let's hope the Europeans don't design the aircraft with some kind of device that enables them to takeover the plane or something... After some of the Europeans aren't too happy about us dragging on in Iraq.

Your paranoia is starting to show.
 
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USAF336TFS
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:42 am

Quoting Moo (Reply 33):
Quoting Blackbird (Reply 30):
Let's hope the Europeans don't design the aircraft with some kind of device that enables them to takeover the plane or something... After some of the Europeans aren't too happy about us dragging on in Iraq.

Your paranoia is starting to show.

As much as I disagree with her on her feelings on Iraq... Even dragging that discussion in, I don't think the statement should be taken as anything other then tongue-in-cheek. I don't think she's paranoid.
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
 
arluna
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:34 pm

Quoting TexL1649 (Reply 28):
Inside the military, the KC-10 is widely used/preferred in lieu of the alternatives simply because it can also serve as a freighter.

This is news to me, I spent twenty-one years in the Air Force in the tanker community and never heard of this. Please give us your source for this statement.

By the way, isn't the use of the word infantile just a little hostile?

J
 
texl1649
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Sat Aug 04, 2007 11:27 pm

That's the thing, arluna, the tanker community doesn't appreciate that the -135's are useless for cargo. Obviously the AF can't recapitalize/grow the freighter fleet much, and single-role tankers will be history someday in the future (if they ever retire all the 135's, which I admit may never happen).

As to 'infantile,' no, I don't think it is hostile, but is an appropriate categorization of the attitude which puts the Northrop bid in the "evil french-european" airplane. It's also an appropriate moniker to describe the motivations of many congressmen, btw.
 
Tancrede
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Sun Aug 05, 2007 12:01 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 21):
That's a very honest statement and I feel the same for my side of the pond, but the problem that it is not very clever to "define" monopolies of you are at the same time the customer. Boeing (or Airbus rerspectively) could call any price then ...

As much as I can understand nationalism, I just would like that some A.neters stop shouting and crying when, we French, try to avoid to buy American products. It seems for me as weird as for you when we have to get some military hardware from the other side of the Atlantic. At least, about the KC-30, it seems that the French AF is considering getting some pieces to replace the old American KC-135s.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 30):
Let's hope the Europeans don't design the aircraft with some kind of device that enables them to takeover the plane or something... After some of the Europeans aren't too happy about us dragging on in Iraq.

Perhaps, you are right  Silly, and about Iraq, stop staring on that topic as many people here in Europe don't even care about it any more because that's just history nowadays.
 
PADSpot
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:31 am

Quoting Tancrede (Reply 37):
As much as I can understand nationalism, I just would like that some A.neters stop shouting and crying when, we French, try to avoid to buy American products. It seems for me as weird as for you when we have to get some military hardware from the other side of the Atlantic. At least, about the KC-30, it seems that the French AF is considering getting some pieces to replace the old American KC-135s.

I think I wanted more to point out, that nationalism is contra-productive because it tends to make defense procurements more expensive due to artificially defining monopolies. In the end it does more harm than good to your own country. If someone wants to keep an investment at home because of research, technology, jobs etc there are more intelligent and fair ways to do that other than to refer to nationalism.

Quoting Tancrede (Reply 37):
Perhaps, you are right Silly, and about Iraq, stop staring on that topic as many people here in Europe don't even care about it any more because that's just history nowadays.

Off topic though but it does touch us in Europe to a far greater extent as the Americans at home. The normal guy on the street might not care, but the implications of what happened will have an equally severe (but still different) impact on Europe as on the US. The difference is: They get what they paid for (although it might not be what they expected) and we have to pay the bill for something we did not order.

But that shouldn't be part of this thread ... its about the KC-30 prototype. Let get back to that  Wink
 
AirRyan
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:44 am

Quoting Saintsman (Reply 23):
Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 20):
The day I take gas from a french-built tanker is the day I get out of the Guard.

As you drive home in your foreign made import because you detest the Big 3 auotmakers in Detroit and their overpaid, fat, and lazy unions combined with the overall lack of quality of the product.  Smile

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 31):
Quoting TexL1649 (Reply 28):
There are no large commercial aircraft which are remotely "national" today. I'd suggest letting go of that infantile concept.

http://www.northropgrumman.com/kc30/....html

Ah yes, quotes from NG. A truly unbiased source quoted. The KC-767Adv will have at least 85% U.S. content versus 50 or 65%, depending what day NG is quoted. And that includes the GE produced engines, which if not included reduces the percentage further. That may be "infantile" to you, but I can assure you that it isn't to Congress and the constituencies involved.

Let's be honest here, the 767 line is all but closed courtesy of the A-330 and it's success most notably in it's additional cargo capabilities. So you tell me, who should the USAF buy to last them for the next 30+ years, a one-trick pony of an airframe already 25+ years old and rendered obsolete by the commerical carriers or the more modern platform than can not only accomplish the mission but expound upon the success of the KC-10's dual capability of not just moving gas but moving equipment? Boeing's argument that the KC-30 is too big is about as logical as the debate for Al Gore's global warming - Boeing says the USAF would need all thes new hangars and ramp space if they went to the A-330 but my Gosh, what are all of these commerical A-330 operators around the world doing to satisfy their needs?! (Read: non-issue)

If it were the KC-787 I'd be all for Boeing in this deal but let's be real once again, even that aircraft is built all around the world now from Asia to Europe even if it is assembled in the United States, so I'm sure Boeing wasn't going to throw that aircraft in the bidding since it was no more US parts content than what the KC-30 would be.
 
Tancrede
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:20 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 38):
Off topic though but it does touch us in Europe to a far greater extent as the Americans at home. The normal guy on the street might not care, but the implications of what happened will have an equally severe (but still different) impact on Europe as on the US. The difference is: They get what they paid for (although it might not be what they expected) and we have to pay the bill for something we did not order.

It is off topic, but I wanted to point out this comment because it seems that for many of our American friends, Iraq is an easy reason to explain every problems or any differences that raise between the US and Europe.
 
arluna
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:11 am

Quoting TexL1649 (Reply 36):
That's the thing, arluna, the tanker community doesn't appreciate that the -135's are useless for cargo.

Please let us all know what your background is as far as the tanker community is concerned and how you know what the tanker community appreciates.

Quoting TexL1649 (Reply 28):
Inside the military, the KC-10 is widely used/preferred in lieu of the alternatives simply because it can also serve as a freighter.

You still haven't given your source for the above statement.

J
 
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moo
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:58 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 39):
As you drive home in your foreign made import because you detest the Big 3 auotmakers in Detroit and their overpaid, fat, and lazy unions combined with the overall lack of quality of the product.

Don't forget the foreign gas being pumped  Smile
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Sun Aug 05, 2007 6:10 am

Quoting TexL1649 (Reply 36):
That's the thing, arluna, the tanker community doesn't appreciate that the -135's are useless for cargo. Obviously the AF can't recapitalize/grow the freighter fleet much, and single-role tankers will be history someday in the future (if they ever retire all the 135's, which I admit may never happen).

As to 'infantile,' no, I don't think it is hostile,

The KC-135 was designed and built as a derivitive of the B-367-80. The original specs. did not call for a duel role aircraft. The KC-135 was to have limited cargo capability, as the KC-97 did.

SAC wanted a jet tanker, and that is what they got.

The USAF had talked over the years about modifying the KC-135 to be a better cargo hauler, but that never even got to the budget phase. For example, around 1980, or so, SAC looked at changing out the plywood floor for a metal floor, with stoable rollers, and a cargo handleing system. The estimated costs was to be about $500,000 per airplane. At the time there were some 620 KC-135s, and the only place to get the money from was the KC-135R or KC-135E reengining program. We needed the engines more.

Again in the early 1990s, after AMC became the USAF Tanker Manager, it was looked at again. Again, no money.

But, AMC did use the KC-135 as a cargo hauler when the C-141B fleet was having it's structual problems.

Even though the cargo had to be man handled (because no cargo handleing system), the airplane worked just fine. The KC-135 can carry up to 83,000lbs of cargo. But it will bulk out long before it gets to that weight.

Know what you are talking about before you say anything. The KC-135 is a well loved airplane in the tanker communitee.

BTW, "infantile" is a hostial word.
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Sun Aug 05, 2007 8:57 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 39):
Boeing's argument that the KC-30 is too big

The KC-30 is far closer to the KC-777 than the KC-767 in size? That the KC-767 is virtually identical in footprint to the KC-135, and even with the 767-400 wingtips, it will still be super close in size.

No amount of anti-american, anti-Boeing rhetoric will change that.
 
Dougloid
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:59 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 38):
Quoting Tancrede (Reply 37):
Perhaps, you are right Silly, and about Iraq, stop staring on that topic as many people here in Europe don't even care about it any more because that's just history nowadays.

Off topic though but it does touch us in Europe to a far greater extent as the Americans at home. The normal guy on the street might not care, but the implications of what happened will have an equally severe (but still different) impact on Europe as on the US. The difference is: They get what they paid for (although it might not be what they expected) and we have to pay the bill for something we did not order.

Can you tell me how Europe-with the exception of Britain- is paying the bill for Iraq?
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
texl1649
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:29 am

Thanks for the history lesson, but I do understand the history of the KC-135, the related Dash 80's impact on jet transport in general, and that the original specification did not anticipate hauling oversized cargo. (Admittedly, I hadn't heard of the consideration given to replacing the floor in the 80's.)

I am not claiming the -135's are poor airplanes due to their engineering, age, or mission, but that their replacement, and the need the DoD must face (what I would categorize as the over-arching goal, pardon the term), is that there won't be a tanker dedicated to just being a tanker in the future. If anything, the KC-X program under-whelms primarily in that as a stop-gap program it does not significantly help fill the need for strategic lift. The KC-10 case-in-point was, from an airframe perspective designed to handle cargo also (I know, not for the air force), and that is something airlift planners strongly appreciate.

I am not, contrary to your perception, trying to suggest that I know the tanker community inside and out, or that it is ignorant, or inferior to any other military community. But, tanker crews don't necessarily appreciate the depth of airlift shortage, or the insanity of continuing to procure dedicated tanker-only (PRIMARILY) airframes. 767 and A300 from an airframe perspective would both be huge improvements, and I don't know what became of the NSA (new strategic aircraft) program, but here is a link that gives an idea of where the service really needs to go.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/nsa.htm

Just as the 707/Dash-80 and -135 programs stimulated the revolution in transport 50 years ago, so too could the BWB concepts also meet military needs for tankers and transports. Outsize cargo requirements will only grow as missions throughout the middle east do over the next 20 years. CRAF-utilization, and other civilian-uses to get troops and equipment around the globe quickly, is not an acceptable, let alone good long-term solution.

The KC-30 isn't the solution either, but it will help more long-term than the KC-767, and that is my point. Why bicker over 20-30% U.S. content when we should be focused on the best platform to help the warfighter? Will that extra 20-30% content lead Boeing to design a new Y-2/Y-3 sooner which will ALSO have that extra American content which the military will ALSO be able to purchase? I think these are the appropriate questions and the answer is blatantly obvious, especially when considered within the context of how the 787 supply chain was (efficiently) assembled.
 
PADSpot
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:46 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 43):
BTW, "infantile" is a hostial word.



Quoting Arluna (Reply 35):
By the way, isn't the use of the word infantile just a little hostile?

Maybe "non-objective" is a better word and comes closer to what he meant? Just a guess ...

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 45):
Can you tell me how Europe-with the exception of Britain- is paying the bill for Iraq?

I wrote you an instant message in order not to hijack the thread.
 
columba
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Sun Aug 05, 2007 7:19 pm

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 24):
bottom line, it is still a French aircraft..

...and what is bad about it ? The french airforce has KC 135, E3s, E2s, C130s. Also all the other European countries might disagree calling theA330 a french aircraft. It is just assembled in France with parts from all over Europe and even from the US. Designed in Belgium, France, Germany, UK and Spain.
I think since the EU and the US are allies and strategic partners it does not matter were a product is from.
The US is buying from the EU and the EU is buying from the US so what ?
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
AirRyan
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out First A330 For Usaf (KC-X)

Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:44 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 44):
Quoting AirRyan (Reply 39):
Boeing's argument that the KC-30 is too big

The KC-30 is far closer to the KC-777 than the KC-767 in size? That the KC-767 is virtually identical in footprint to the KC-135, and even with the 767-400 wingtips, it will still be super close in size.

No amount of anti-american, anti-Boeing rhetoric will change that.

But what I am saying is that argument is for intent purposes illogical and invalid - it doesn't ¡phu¢king! matter - if NW airlines can figure it out and make do with it, than I am sure the USAF can, too.

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