Tom12
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RAF & M134, M60D Guns - Who Operates?

Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:16 pm

On the RAF's chinooks they have the choice of mounting M134's or M60D's . . . but just out of curiosity, who operates these guns?

My guess is RAF Regimental Gunners or the Chinooks Crewman?


Thanks for any input  Smile


Tom
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moo
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RE: RAF & M134, M60D Guns - Who Operates?

Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:12 am

Quoting Tom12 (Thread starter):
On the RAF's chinooks they have the choice of mounting M134's or M60D's . . . but just out of curiosity, who operates these guns?

My guess is RAF Regimental Gunners or the Chinooks Crewman?

Chinooks crewmen - RAF personel are not adverse to firing weapons!
 
dl021
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RE: RAF & M134, M60D Guns - Who Operates?

Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:13 am

RAF gunners don't use M-60s...they use GMPGs or the newer FN MGs.......
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PADSpot
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RE: RAF & M134, M60D Guns - Who Operates?

Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:06 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 2):
RAF gunners don't use M-60s

No they do use M-60s on their Chinooks. Don't know why, but they do.

Edit: Link: http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/m60dmachinegun.cfm

On reason could be that gun mounts were readily available. For the same reason Germany used M60s as door guns on UH-1Ds for a short while in the early 90s (today they use MG3s on the Huey).

[Edited 2007-08-02 18:10:55]
 
GDB
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RE: RAF & M134, M60D Guns - Who Operates?

Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:14 am

PAD is right, they came with the aircraft.
DL021 is right about all the rest though, GPMG's on Sea King HC.4, Puma, Lynx-both Navy and Army, Merlin.
 
HanginOut
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RE: RAF & M134, M60D Guns - Who Operates?

Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:18 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 3):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 2):
RAF gunners don't use M-60s

No they do use M-60s on their Chinooks. Don't know why, but they do.

Edit: Link: http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/m60d...n.cfm



Quoting GDB (Reply 4):
PAD is right, they came with the aircraft.
DL021 is right about all the rest though, GPMG's on Sea King HC.4, Puma, Lynx-both Navy and Army, Merlin.

Funny, but the RAF link in PADSpot's post doesn't mention the GPMG, only the M-60.  confused 
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PADSpot
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RE: RAF & M134, M60D Guns - Who Operates?

Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:25 am

Quoting HanginOut (Reply 5):
Funny, but the RAF link in PADSpot's post doesn't mention the GPMG, only the M-60. confused

hmmm ... either ist is just missing on that website, or the GPMG is not operated by the RAF, but by Navy and Army helicopters? Just a guess ...
 
dl021
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RE: RAF & M134, M60D Guns - Who Operates?

Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:51 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 3):
No they do use M-60s on their Chinooks. Don't know why, but they do.



Quoting GDB (Reply 4):
PAD is right, they came with the aircraft.

Well....blow me down....I looked it up and you're right....

learn something new every day.

I don't remember seeing Pigs on the Lynx's I saw. I guess if they came with the Chinooks then so be it. I don't know why they'd use the Pig when there's anything else available....it's a good weapon...as long as it doesn't jam....I spent as much time unjamming that old bastard as I did shooting it. And it was clean and function tested.....hated it.
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GDB
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RE: RAF & M134, M60D Guns - Who Operates?

Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:33 am

Door mounted guns were not usual on UK military choppers, save for some Wessex with GPMG's in the 1960's Indonesian confrontation.
Then in 1982, hastily fitted to RN Sea King HC.4's, as well as Army Scot and Gazelle choppers in the Falklands.
The Army Lynx was capable of operating a door mounted Minigun, but never did operationally, except perhaps until recently.

But it was the IRA's attempts to down helicopters in the 1980's with gunfire, that led to more widespread door gun fitments, of GPMG's
(They never got to use the SAM-7's Libya provided-with warning of this threat, all choppers and and any transport/VIP aircraft likely to be exposed, had IRCM fitted).
For operations in rural areas only though. (The very recently closed base at Bessbrook was for a long time, the worlds busiest heliport).
Such a move had long been resisted, but in the end, became a necessity.
(Thanks to Libyan supplied MAG's and Russian made 12.7mm MG's, prior to this, their only other MG's, save for perhaps the odd old Bren Gun, the 7 M-60's stolen from a US National Guard Armory in 1976, had by then, all been captured).

To add PADspot's link, a feature with a pic of GPMG on a Merlin;
http://www.ets-news.com/third.php?id=614

A minigun on Chinook;
http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/m134minigun.cfm
 
dl021
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RE: RAF & M134, M60D Guns - Who Operates?

Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:47 am

I had seen photos of miniguns on Chinooks over Bosnia, and saw GMPGs on Lynx helos there. Just never imagined the use of M-60s. I wonder why...the mount can't be the issue.
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PADSpot
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RE: RAF & M134, M60D Guns - Who Operates?

Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:01 pm

Although it is a little strange it seems to be quite common that the gun is chosen because the mount is already available.

In 1993 Germany quickly needed door guns on their UH-1D for UNOSOM II, but time was to short to develop a custom-made mount for the MG-3. At the time the US Army in Germany still had UH-1 and so they just borrowed some mounts together with M-60s. The mount as they use it today is still the M-60s mount, but now it has a suspension to cope with the MG-3s much heavier recoil and a brass catcher.

In 2002 the same happened to the Navy as look for a door gun to cover boarding operations in operation EF. They chose the M3M. Not only because it's a great gun, but also because time was short again and there was an M3M mount available for the Lynx. Meanwhile the Army's CH-53GS also switched from MG-3s to M3Ms due to side and ramp mounts being available because the Marines are using the M3M on their Stallions too. I am curious about which gun they put on the NH-90.
 
Tom12
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RE: RAF & M134, M60D Guns - Who Operates?

Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:50 pm

Quoting Moo (Reply 1):
Chinooks crewmen - RAF personel are not adverse to firing weapons!

Thanks.

Whats the difference between a gMPG and an M60 . . . I'm assuming the GMPG would be a better weapon to issue to the doors?
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PADSpot
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RE: RAF & M134, M60D Guns - Who Operates?

Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:13 pm

Quoting Tom12 (Reply 11):
Whats the difference between a gMPG and an M60

They are two different machine guns. The GPMG (General Purpose Machine Gun) is a licensed produced Belgian MAG58 machine gun and in service with the British Army since the 60s. The M60 is a US made gun, designed in the 50s, which was never used in the British Army to a greater extent. In US service the M60 was largely replaced by a slightly altered and licensed product copy of the Belgian MAG58 called M240 and by a also licensed produced M249 Minimi on the infantry squad level. The M60 has got a relatively low rate of fire and is quite care intensive. The MAG also has quick change barrel which the M-60 has not. This is especially a problem in mounted applications. So yes, the GPMG is better as a helicopter door gun. With almost double the rate of fire it is also a lot easier to hit something from a moving helicopter.
 
dl021
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RE: RAF & M134, M60D Guns - Who Operates?

Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:31 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 12):
The MAG also has quick change barrel which the M-60 has not.

You can do a quick change on the Pig's barrel. They even issue an asbestos glove (I swear to God....at least when I was in) so you can change the barrel. The FN's design for barrel change is better.
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GDB
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RE: RAF & M134, M60D Guns - Who Operates?

Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:46 pm

Somewhere, there is likely a US Foreign Military Sales reference, to the sale of M-60's and M134's, their mounts too, for the UK?

But I'm wondering on the other hand, did the RAF Chinooks get the MG's as a quick, in the field job, for the 1991 Gulf War?
Straight from US Army stocks?
 
PADSpot
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RE: RAF & M134, M60D Guns - Who Operates?

Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:55 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 13):
You can do a quick change on the Pig's barrel. They even issue an asbestos glove (I swear to God....at least when I was in) so you can change the barrel. The FN's design for barrel change is bette

Oh yes, but that is just not a quick change barrel (QCB)  Smile A quick change barrel usually enables you to change the barrel without having to pull the gun back into cover. Further on QCBs can be changed without gloves (think of the lever on the MAG and the Minimi). I think there aren't any air-cooled machine guns where can't change the barrel at all.
 
checksixx
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RE: RAF & M134, M60D Guns - Who Operates?

Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:10 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 15):
Oh yes, but that is just not a quick change barrel (QCB) A quick change barrel usually enables you to change the barrel without having to pull the gun back into cover.

Your incorrect....an M-60 BBL is a quick change BBL. I'm not sure what you mean by pulling the gun back into cover though to change the BBL...
 
PADSpot
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RE: RAF & M134, M60D Guns - Who Operates?

Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:50 am

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 16):

Ok, I stand corrected. I read on several occasions that a quick change barrel must enable the gunner to change the barrel without tools and without leaving his position behind the gun (as most MGs are used on the ground, you would have pull the gun back into the trench or whatever you are hiding in, because otherwise you would had to expose yourself to enemy fire.

Quoting GDB (Reply 14):
Somewhere, there is likely a US Foreign Military Sales reference, to the sale of M-60's and M134's, their mounts too, for the UK?

There are several databases online to get such data, but none of the tracks such small shipments of a weapons. Especially small arms deliveries are usually subsumed to one large position "Small arms and Ammunition" or similar.
 
GDB
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RE: RAF & M134, M60D Guns - Who Operates?

Sat Sep 01, 2007 7:13 am

Moving to the Royal Navy, look what this Lynx had fitted, pic was taken at the Yeovilton airshow recently, I wonder if the upgrade from 7.62mm to 12.7mm is a result of the 'Iran situation' earlier this year?

http://s144.photobucket.com/albums/r...007/?action=view¤t=YOV71.jpg

http://s144.photobucket.com/albums/r...007/?action=view¤t=YOV70.jpg

The more usual fitment on a Lynx, not the other side as it's a different machine;

http://s144.photobucket.com/albums/r...007/?action=view¤t=YOV18.jpg
 
dl021
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RE: RAF & M134, M60D Guns - Who Operates?

Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:27 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 12):
The M60 has got a relatively low rate of fire and is quite care intensive

quite care intensive is sort of a stereotypical british type understatement....you sure you're german?  Wink

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 15):
Oh yes, but that is just not a quick change barrel (QCB) [/quote]Perhaps not as quick, but still a quick change barrel.

[quote=PADSpot,reply=15] Further on QCBs can be changed without gloves (think of the lever on the MAG and the Minimi

Yeah, I'd seen both of those and I was a SAW gunner and liked that feature alot....they just never issued us spare barrels. We had to steal them from the companies not going if we wanted one.
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L-188
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RE: RAF & M134, M60D Guns - Who Operates?

Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:01 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 12):
The MAG also has quick change barrel which the M-60 has not.

Yes it does.

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 15):
A quick change barrel usually enables you to change the barrel without having to pull the gun back into cover.

No, my understanding is that a QC barrel is indexed and eliminates the need to headspace the new barrel

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 12):
With almost double the rate of fire it is also a lot easier to hit something from a moving helicopter.

You also burn through your ammo twice a quick

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 12):
The M60 has got a relatively low rate of fire and is quite care intensive.

The lower rate of fire was intentional, the M60 borrowed a lot from the WWII MG-42 which had a very high rate of fire. It was cranked down for the M60.
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