Lumberton
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Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:15 am

Twice the planes for 50% less; what a deal!
http://www.reuters.com/article/marke...sNews/idUKN2041841020070920?rpc=44

Quote:
PARIS, Sept 20 (Reuters) - French corporate and combat jet maker Dassault Aviation (AVMD.PA: Quote, Profile, Research) may lose out on a deal to sell some Rafale fighter planes to Morocco, French newspaper La Tribune reported.
In an article due to be published on Friday, La Tribune said the Moroccan government was set to accept a rival offer to buy F-16 fighter planes made by U.S. company Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N: Quote, Profile, Research).
La Tribune, citing its own sources, said Lockheed had offered Morocco 36 F-16 planes for less than $2 billion, while France had offered 18 Rafale planes for 2.3 billion euros ($3.22 billion).

Remember the old saw: "quantity has a quality of it's own"?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
PADSpot
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:30 am

Quoting Lumberton (Thread starter):
Remember the old saw: "quantity has a quality of it's own"?

Hard to say anything without knowing what type of F-16. My judgment would be different depending on whether they refer to refurbished F-16As oder factory-new Block-52/60.
 
Lumberton
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:33 am

My guess would be new builds. L-M is hoping to keep the line going. I suspect the weakness of the U.S. Dollar will have more impact in the months/years to come in the defense export business.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
PADSpot
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:53 am

I meanwhile arrived at the conclusion that smaller or less endowed air forces are better off taking the less complex product. Last-generation fighter impose an enormous overhead in training and costs for which they have to spend money they otherwise could have spend on some sophisticated weapons or other systems.
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:01 am

Hmm, in this case sounds like they are getting a pile of garbage for less money than a handful of decent.
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:14 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4):



Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4):
Hmm, in this case sounds like they are getting a pile of garbage for less money than a handful of decent

I wouldn't exactly call the F-16 a pile of garbage.
 
PADSpot
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:19 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4):
Hmm, in this case sounds like they are getting a pile of garbage for less money than a handful of decent.

No, I wouldn't put it that extreme. Every air force needs to do comprises. Some less and some more.
 
ebj1248650
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:37 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 1):
Hard to say anything without knowing what type of F-16. My judgment would be different depending on whether they refer to refurbished F-16As oder factory-new Block-52/60.

Someone correct me please, if I'm wrong, but I thought a previous thread had said Saudi Arabia is financing the Rafale sale. Do the Saudis have any say regarding whether this new offer will be accepted?
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
PADSpot
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:44 am

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 7):
Someone correct me please, if I'm wrong, but I thought a previous thread had said Saudi Arabia is financing the Rafale sale. Do the Saudis have any say regarding whether this new offer will be accepted?

I guess they will a say in general if they give the money. You won't give 2-3Bil$ to someone and accept that he might act against your will. But why should Saudi Arabia say anything against F-16s?
 
Devilfish
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:08 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 1):
My judgment would be different depending on whether they refer to refurbished F-16As oder factory-new Block-52/60.

This report indicates used F-16s.....

http://www.f-16.net/news_article2521.html

Quote:
"September 21, 2007 (by Lieven Dewitte) - Although it seemed for a while that Morocco would conclude on an order for Dassault Rafales, a French twin-engined multi-role fighter aircraft, it now seems more likely that they will order used F-16s."

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 7):
I thought a previous thread had said Saudi Arabia is financing the Rafale sale.

Saudi Arabia together with the UAE were supposed to fund an old F-16 order. However, it was not clear if the funding was still there and if it would carry over to the Rafale deal or indeed to this latest F-16 offer.....

Quote:
"In November 1991, Morocco and the U.S. Government signed an agreement for Morocco's acquisition of twenty ex-USAF F-16A/B's. Although Morocco was funded by Saudi Arabia and the UAE, the deal somehow never got trough, else they would then have become the 18th country to fly the F-16."

~$2B doesn't seem too cheap for 36 used Falcons. I wonder if those are part of the first F-16Cs from the ANG headed for AMARC? The report on the first two serials on F-16.net is now gone. Meanwhile, the French made a counteroffer of 12 Rafales and 12 Mirages, or 24 Rafales for 2B euros.

Edit: Found the photo.....

http://www.f-16.net/gallery_item269018.html


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Photo © Terry Shepherd
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Photo © Dan Brownlee


[Edited 2007-09-22 07:25:42]
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
PADSpot
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:04 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 9):
In November 1991

I doubt that this deal would have still relevance today, although a newer one could also include used F-16As.
 
Devilfish
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:33 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 10):
although a newer one could also include used F-16As.

Apart from price, why opt for A/Bs when C/Ds might be available?
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
ebj1248650
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:37 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 11):
Apart from price, why opt for A/Bs when C/Ds might be available?

Good question ... and why not go with a current generation airplane which will last for many years rather than a previous generation warplane? Mind you, I have nothing against the F-16, but Rafale is a much more modern design and used F-16s, whether A/B or C/D are still used airplanes and that's going to translate into high maintenance costs in a few short years.
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
Devilfish
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:37 pm

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 12):
and why not go with a current generation airplane which will last for many years rather than a previous generation warplane?

Indeed. At the end of the day, it all boils down to a country's priorities, security situation, and what it could afford. If in their judgment they could ensure their protection with good, used fighters for a reasonable lenght of time, then that is what they would choose. OTOH, if the threats against them are such that the effective means of defense are expensive cutting edge stuff within their means, they would be compelled to spend for it. At the other extreme, no matter how grave the threats, they couldn't do much about those without the werewithal to do it. Going for the latest and greatest doesn't work for everybody everytime - as there will always be newer and greater things coming along, and everchanging challenges as well.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
PADSpot
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:19 pm

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 12):
and why not go with a current generation airplane which will last for many years rather than a previous generation warplane?

I'd like to requote my argument from th beginning of the thread

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 3):
I meanwhile arrived at the conclusion that smaller or less endowed air forces are better off taking the less complex product. Last-generation fighter impose an enormous overhead in training and costs which they have to spend money on they could otherwise spend on some sophisticated weapons or other systems. Austria being the prime example here.
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:28 pm

55M$ sounds like block 52+ to me..

would take on a Rafale with a block52 F-16 any day
 
PADSpot
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:36 pm

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 15):
55M$ sounds like block 52+ to me..

Could also be "system price" for a heavily upgraded, low hour F-16A with a ten year inventory of spare parts, training, infrastructure cost etc.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 15):
would take on a Rafale with a block52 F-16 any day

Good Luck!
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:39 pm

...In many respects, the F-16 is becoming much like the UH-1, or the M113.

You can hardly go to a western - or pro western nation - without finding one of these pieces of equipment.

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 12):
and why not go with a current generation airplane which will last for many years rather than a previous generation warplane?

I wonder if it has anything to do with their assessment of their potential enemies? When you look at who could threaten Morocco's sovereignty, their is no major threat. Hell even the notion of a international conflict, in the first place, is remote.

So it begs the question... why buy the top of the line, when there is no counterpart on the other side of the battlefield? Why spend all of that money? It's far more likely, these aircraft would see action in a joint venture with a coalition... where they would benefit from the support of the better militaries of the west.

So why not buy a very capable aircraft, albeit one that isn't the cutting edge, but one that meets the reality of your current and future needs?

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
PADSpot
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:01 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 17):
So it begs the question... why buy the top of the line, when there is no counterpart on the other side of the battlefield? Why spend all of that money? It's far more likely, these aircraft would see action in a joint venture with a coalition... where they would benefit from the support of the better militaries of the west.

So why not buy a very capable aircraft, albeit one that isn't the cutting edge, but one that meets the reality of your current and future needs?

Could not more agree.

[Edited 2007-09-23 14:02:19]
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:04 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 16):
Good Luck!

It would be closer than you think. Am I missing something does Morocco have any outside threats that they would need anything more than some upgraded F-16's????
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:29 am

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 19):
It would be closer than you think. Am I missing something does Morocco have any outside threats that they would need anything more than some upgraded F-16's????

I believe they have issues with their neighbour Algeria. Rather large portion of dessert which they are quarelling about for ages.
 
Lumberton
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:42 pm

Update.

Dogfight at the Casbah: Rafale vs. F-16


Quote:
On Sept 26/07, however, Jane's Defence Weekly reported that:
"France appears to be losing hope of persuading Morocco to become the first foreign customer for its Rafale multirole fighter. This follows indications that the Moroccan government has been deeply tempted by a US offer to supply it with less expensive F-16 fighters. French industry sources said last week that Morocco had been "within an inch" of signing a contract in May and June for 18 Rafales in a package worth EUR2.2 billion (USD3.1 billion) with manufacturer Dassault Aviation and its partners in the Rafale programme: Thales and engine-maker Snecma, a division of Safran…."
Une autre fois? We'll see.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
Devilfish
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:32 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 10):
I doubt that this deal would have still relevance today, although a newer one could also include used F-16As.

It appears that there was an offer of financing from Saudi Arabia as recently as 2006, but for Rafales. From the link above.....

Quote:
"In June 2006, Agence France Presse reported that Morocco was negotiating with Dassault Aviation of France for the purchase of 12 – 18 Rafale combat planes, with possible financing from by Saudi Arabia. Those rumors surfaced again as the Le Bourget Paris Air Show 2007 approached."

http://www.netmarine.net/aero/aeronefs/rafale/photo08.htm

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 19):
Am I missing something does Morocco have any outside threats that they would need anything more than some upgraded F-16's????

Again, from the link in Reply 21.....

Quote:
"Morocco's air force currently flies 2 squadrons of old F-5s, and 2 squadrons of slightly newer Mirage F1s. Their neighbour and rival Algeria flies MiG-23s of similar vintage, but adds far more modern and capable MiG-29s. The Force Aerienne Algerienne also flies SU-24 Fencer and SU-25 Frogfoot strike aircraft, and is set to receive 36 multi-role MiG-29SMTs, and 30 multi-role SU-30MKs as part of a multi-billion dollar weapons deal with Russia."
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:00 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 22):
is set to receive 36 multi-role MiG-29SMTs, and 30 multi-role SU-30MKs

maybe they should get themselves some Typhoons then?
 
Devilfish
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:35 am

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 23):
maybe they should get themselves some Typhoons then?

Already lost your confidence in Block 52 F-16s so soon? Is Rafale less of an adversary than Su-30MKs? And would the Saudi's generosity stretch up to Typhoon level in significant numbers?
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:36 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 24):
Already lost your confidence in Block 52 F-16s so soon? Is Rafale less of an adversary than Su-30MKs? And would the Saudi's generosity stretch up to Typhoon level in significant numbers?

a block52 would toast a rafale any day. A SU-30 is a different story. Rafale is a good plane because it's a true multi-role fighter. It's air-to-air capabilities itself aren;t very special, just good. A SU-30 prolly the 3d best air superiority fighter (an F-16 would also have a tough time against it).
 
PADSpot
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:27 am

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 25):
A SU-30 is a different story. Rafale is a good plane because it's a true multi-role fighter. It's air-to-air capabilities itself aren;t very special, just good. A SU-30 prolly the 3d best air superiority fighter

I would put my money on a clear Su-30 win in a long range engagement, a Rafale win in the medium range BVR area and a draw in the WVR area (with a tendency in favor of the Su-30). Stating from a Indian Su-30MKI, meaning well trained pilots, not underfunded etc ...
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:48 pm

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 20):
I believe they have issues with their neighbour Algeria. Rather large portion of dessert which they are quarelling about for ages.

Sure why not spend un-necessary millions on taking a desert makes sense to me. Maybe we should offer them the F-22 and be done with it.
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:55 am

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 27):
Sure why not spend un-necessary millions on taking a desert makes sense to me. Maybe we should offer them the F-22 and be done with it.

well, there are actually people living there. I guess the US wouldn;t take kindly from a Mexican invasion to (re)claim texas and new mexico (I believe also mostly desert?)
 
PADSpot
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:15 am

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 28):
texas and new mexico

Most of Texas was pretty green at least until a year ago or so ... Take Nevada and New Mexico.
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Wed Oct 03, 2007 2:33 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 29):
Most of Texas was pretty green at least until a year ago or so ... Take Nevada and New Mexico.

thanks!  blush   blush 
 
Devilfish
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:57 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 17):

So it begs the question... why buy the top of the line, when there is no counterpart on the other side of the battlefield?

From the Algerian thread.....
Algerian Air Force (by Saintsman Sep 6 2007 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 4):
Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 3):
It was also mentioned that MiG 29s were ordered by Algeria.....

Yeah, it was some MiG-29SMT, there's a picture of it out there, but I'm too lazy, anyways they suspended the deliveries because they weren't happy with the quality of the jets and they said that the jets were refurbished used ones instead of new builds.


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Photo © Max Bryansky - Russian AviaPhoto Team
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Photo © Dmitriy Pichugin - Russian AviaPhoto Team



Quoting MD90fan (Reply 6):
Cool, but I was talking about the Algerian MiG-29SMTs, here is one:

Quote:
Sokol Sends Two MiG-29 to Algeria

The Nizhniy Novgorod Sokol Aircraft Building Plant delivered two MiG-29 airplanes to Algeria in May. Delivery was realized within the framework of the execution of a Rosoboronehksport contract.

Six MiG fighters in all will be sent to Algeria. Three were shipped in December of last year and two more in May 2007, the enterprise’s general director, Mikhail Shibaev, reported at the annual stockholders’ meeting.

They will ship six MiG-29UB before year’s end according to the FGUP Rosoboronehksport contract for the delivery of airplanes totaling 3.5 billion dollars.

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Photo © Fyodor Borisov - Russian AviaPhoto Team


http://www.royfc.com/cgi-bin/today/a...s.cgi

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...214928/new-orders-for-yak-130.html

Quote:
"A slightly modified version of the aircraft, the Su-30MKA, is being produced for the Algerian Air Force. It will receive 12 fighters shortly and a further six by year-end, says Demchenko."

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Photo © Fyodor Borisov - Russian AviaPhoto Team



Quoting MD90fan (Reply 4):
Actually, the first 2 are done, Sukhoi is conducting trials with the Thales laser designating pod they ordered.

It seems the numbers and quality shown in the excerpt in Reply 22 were hyped a little. Morocco could counter the Algerian lineup above with more Block 52s, or upgraded F-16C/Ds in combination with some country-spec'd F-15M+ Super Eagle versions.

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Photo © YK

"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Lumberton
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:17 am

I look at this sale for the Rafale to Morocco, the same way I view the forthcoming sale of either 787s or A350s to Emirates: the French absolutely can NOT afford to lose this sale. They will do whatever they have to do to win it. IMO, Morocco is in a position to get the Rafale at an unbelievably low price.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:52 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 32):
I look at this sale for the Rafale to Morocco, the same way I view the forthcoming sale of either 787s or A350s to Emirates: the French absolutely can NOT afford to lose this sale. They will do whatever they have to do to win it. IMO, Morocco is in a position to get the Rafale at an unbelievably low price.

this sounds very plausible. I'm curious if the Marrocans would be the first to actually get a good price from the French!
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:20 pm

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 28):



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 28):
well, there are actually people living there. I guess the US wouldn;t take kindly from a Mexican invasion to (re)claim texas and new mexico (I believe also mostly desert?)

There's acually people living in Texas and New Mexico also and if you look at the ethnicity count in both states there are probably more Mexican's living there than in Mexico so why would they need to invade it? We would have to fight them if they tried to take Las Vegas thats a definate no no!!!!  Wink

[Edited 2007-10-04 12:26:16]
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:56 pm

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 34):
there are probably more Mexican's living there than in Mexico so why would they need to invade it?

lol, well, would be a grand reason. To re-unite them with their kinsmen. Was a reason for war before you know.
 
art
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:52 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 32):
the French absolutely can NOT afford to lose this sale. They will do whatever they have to do to win it. IMO, Morocco is in a position to get the Rafale at an unbelievably low price.

Below cost of production?
 
ebj1248650
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:13 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 24):
And would the Saudi's generosity stretch up to Typhoon level in significant numbers?

It might, given that Saudi Arabia is buying the Typhoon themselves.
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
ebj1248650
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:21 pm

Quoting Art (Reply 36):
Quoting Lumberton (Reply 32):
the French absolutely can NOT afford to lose this sale. They will do whatever they have to do to win it. IMO, Morocco is in a position to get the Rafale at an unbelievably low price.

Below cost of production?

There's a lower limit the French can't go below. They need the export order, and there's a possibility it might stir up further orders. My guess, though, is that Rafale and Typhoon sell for similar prices, and given Typhoon's acknowledged better performance in the air-to-air role, my bet would be on Typhoon for future export orders. On the flip side, Rafale was built with emphasis on air-to-ground capability so it would seem to be the preferred airplane for a country that wants a new state-of-the-art fighter-bomber.
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
PADSpot
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:33 pm

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 38):
My guess, though, is that Rafale and Typhoon sell for similar prices,

The Rafale is cheaper.

Quoting Art (Reply 36):
Below cost of production?

Cost of production is a relative term, because most general costs of production have already been paid in advance or distributed over the domestic orders. The real direct costs of one naked airplane is certainly below 50% of the official system price. The problem might be that you get into a communication problem with the original domestic customer. How do you explain to him that he has pay so much more for the product than Morocco for instance.
 
RIXrat
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Sun Oct 07, 2007 7:03 pm

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 33):
I'm curious if the Marrocans would be the first to actually get a good price from the French!

Country name: Morocco. People: Moroccans.

Texas: Population 23.5 million, second largest in the lower 48 states -- hardly a desert.

Thought I'd nit-pick a bit.
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:23 pm

Quoting RIXrat (Reply 40):
Country name: Morocco. People: Moroccans.

sorry! thanks for correcting me (it's just my Dunglish)

Quoting RIXrat (Reply 40):
Texas: Population 23.5 million, second largest in the lower 48 states -- hardly a desert.

you're not the first to point that out:

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 29):
Most of Texas was pretty green at least until a year ago or so ... Take Nevada and New Mexico.
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:48 am

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 35):
lol, well, would be a grand reason. To re-unite them with their kinsmen. Was a reason for war before you know.

Yes I am aware of American History but last time they lost and I doubt they would want to be our 51'st state so I would assume they wouldnt want them back. I do understand that Morocco and its neighbors could fight it out over their disputed land but I still think anything other than some upgraded used F-16's or even used mig-29's would be a waste of money. But its their money if they want to buy a new F-15 I wont lose any sleep over it as I am sure the russians wouldnt if they decided to buy some S-30's. But if you see my point I understand that countries have a right to defend themselves but if we (The US) and Russia keep seeling them arms I dont see any light at the end of the Tunnel do you?
 
Max78
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RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:28 am

Back to the deal, it seems that Morocco is going to pay $2bn for 36 F16. But.. what would be the cost of 20 years maintenance of 36 F16 against 18 Rafale ?...

Any ideas ?
 
F27Friendship
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Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:45 pm

RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:19 pm

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 42):
But if you see my point I understand that countries have a right to defend themselves but if we (The US) and Russia keep seeling them arms I dont see any light at the end of the Tunnel do you?

Hey, I agree with you, but it's just the thing the the other party already got new stuff from the Russians. To keep things balanced Morocco needs to keep an eye on their military too.

Quoting Max78 (Reply 43):
Back to the deal, it seems that Morocco is going to pay $2bn for 36 F16. But.. what would be the cost of 20 years maintenance of 36 F16 against 18 Rafale ?...

Uf, I guess a Rafale would be cheaper on the long run.
 
Devilfish
Posts: 5210
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:26 pm

Quoting Max78 (Reply 43):
Back to the deal, it seems that Morocco is going to pay $2bn for 36 F16.

Quote:
"Oct 19/07: Les Echos reports (en Francais) that Morocco will be buying 16 used F-16s instead. They also have harsh words for the Chirac government and French agencies, who allegedly bungled the Rafale deal."

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...t-the-casbah-rafale-vs-f-16-03889/

Monsieur Le President is travelling to Morocco to salvage the deal.....

Updates & Developments

Oct 21/07: Reuters Africa, "Sarkozy to push Rafale fighter on Moroccan visit":

Quote:
"French President Nicolas Sarkozy said he would try to persuade Morocco of the advantages of French Rafale jet fighters when he visits on Monday, despite signs Rabat has decided to buy cheaper U.S.-built F16s….'I personally want to offer Morocco the best of our expertise in this area and in other arms sectors. My ambition is to build cooperation in defence and armaments that will match our political partnership'...."

As a sidebar, there was this interesting bit of news.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/

Moroccan VIP Jet Gets LAIRCM
16-Oct-2007 15:45

Quote:
"Northrop Grumman Systems Corporation of Rolling Meadows, IL received a firm-fixed price contract modification for $15 million, pursuant to a letter contract for foreign military sales case number MO-D-QAD for one Moroccan Head of State Aircraft Large Aircraft Infrared Countermeasures (LAIRCM) system. LAIRCM has become a popular way to protect large transport aircraft; it uses sensors to detect incoming infared-guided missiles, then throws it off course using targeted laser pulses. The exact aircraft was not specified, but based on the Alkowat al malakiya al jawiya's order of battle, our bet is on the transcontinental Falcon 50 business jet based at Rabat Sale.

That protection system must be a large percentage of the VIP jet's original price.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
hunterson
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 2:02 am

RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:36 am

The chances of the Rafale winning the Moroccan deal are not over yet, regardless of Saudi generosity or otherwise.
The French president M. Sarkozy is on an official visit to Morocco at the moment, and one of the items on top of his agenda there is to push for a deal on a future purchase of Rafales for the Royal Moroccan Air Force.
It is certainly still a strong possibility that the Moroccans might opt for the French option, not only on military grounds, but also for political and economic considerations.
Morocco needs French backing in its long-running dispute with Algeria over the question of the Western Sahara. It also needs French help in dealing with the enormous problem of Moroccan illegal emmigrants into France, as well as with the issue of integration of some two million Moroccans who are already in France either as French citizens, or as residents with Moroccan citizenship.
In short, Morocco might feel that it would be a rather good idea to keep the French happy, especially now with M. Sarkozy as president, while keeping the Americans happy with quietly providing them with the air and sea bases and facilities that the US needs and already uses in the country in return for political backing and economic assistance.
Militarily, the RMAF needs a replacement for its remaining F-5E Tigers, and it seems perfectly logical that a deal with France for something between 18 and 24 multi-role Rafale fighters might seem like the ideal option for their operational requirements.
And in any case, the RMAF will soon need another replacement,this time fpr their French-made Mirage F-1 fighters, so maybe then the F-16 will be the favourite choice to equip its combat squadrons in the near future.

As such, Morocco will manage to keep both its main international allies very happy and , more importantly, also keep its airforce commanders satisfied, with an upgrading of its combat elements, in due course, from a Mirage F-1/ F-5E combination, to a much more capable F-16/ Rafale outfit.
After all, two squadrons of each type would not be such a bad deal for any RMAF commander, or indeed for any Moroccan fighter pilot.
 
User avatar
sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:05 pm

Quoting Hunterson (Reply 46):
The chances of the Rafale winning the Moroccan deal are not over yet, regardless of Saudi generosity or otherwise.

They are !! And the French govt knows it for a few months. They totally screw up, and lost a nearly done deal !!
These idiots offered a price different (lower) to the one offered by Dassaut, without consulting Dassaut. Added to that, that the Saudi financing was a joke, and the French finance minister refused in the first place to finance the deal, I understand that Mohamed VI decided to buy the F-16. If there's a justice, many heads should be rolling now, including at least one minister. But it won't happen.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 25):
a block52 would toast a rafale any day.

Sure ! Just because you say it.  Smile  Smile
 
hunterson
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 2:02 am

RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:03 pm

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 47):



Quoting Sebolino (Reply 47):
They are

Yes,actually you are absolutely right.

Further to my previous message, and with apologies to everyone, I just learnt that the Moroccans told President Sarkozyduring his official visit that they are going for the F-16 as a replacement for their F-5Es.

They did leave the door "open" , however, for a possible future deal for the Rafale, as a replacement for their Mirage F-1s, perhaps in a couple of years time !

So, maybe it is another case of " you win some and you lose some " !
 
Devilfish
Posts: 5210
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

RE: Rafale Sale To Morocco May Be Off-Report

Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:28 pm

Quoting Hunterson (Reply 48):

So, maybe it is another case of " you win some and you lose some " !

Indeed, as a multi-mission frigate sale is nothing to scoff at.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...PH8AAAEAAGx-cvMAAAAF&modele=jdc_34

New Success for DCNS in Morocco
(Source: DCNS; issued Oct. 23, 2007)

Quote:
"PARIS --- In the course of French President Nicolas Sarkozy's recent state visit to Morocco, the Kingdom's highest authorities confirmed an agreement between the two countries to provide the Royal Moroccan Navy with a FREMM multi-mission frigate."
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield

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