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shahram16216
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Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:58 am

Yesterday in the day of Saeghe (Thunder) ceremony ; 2 Iranian military aircrafts made a formation flight over Tehran/Mehrabad airport.Iranian Air Force men during last few years changed and overhauled Northrop F-5 with their own equipments! and made this strong and fresh aircraft and named it Saeghe ( Thunder ) that is an abbreviation of Iranian glorious , volition , belief and chivalrous , morover it means Thunder.They wrote persian affirmative on the fuselage of this aircraft that means " We Can "
This is the picture of thier flight over Tehran airport.

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1272144/L/

They said they want to make more of this changed aircraft and operate them in the air force as an essential member.
 
Acheron
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:41 am

I didn't know the Blue Angels were allowed to fly into Iran.  Silly
 
sprout5199
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:19 am

Quoting Shahram16216 (Thread starter):
They said they want to make more of this changed aircraft and operate them in the air force as an essential member.

Sad that they want "warmed over" F-5's vs getting their F-14's in flyable condition.

Dan in Jupiter
 
Stealthz
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:54 am

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 2):
Sad that they want "warmed over" F-5's vs getting their F-14's in flyable condition.

I would surmise that what they want and what they can realistically achieve may be two different things.
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
Devilfish
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:30 am

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 3):
I would surmise that what they want and what they can realistically achieve may be two different things.

A possible rationale was given here.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/gr...ns-f5based-fighter-signs-of-1.html

.....which I also posted in the other thread.....
Iranian Csaf Vows To Bomb Israel If Attacked. (by Venus6971 Sep 19 2007 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)

And for old threads on the subject.....
RE: Iran Tests Upgraded F5 (by Dougloid Sep 12 2006 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)
RE: Azarakhsh - Iranian F-14? (by Spacepope Aug 18 2007 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
md90fan
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:40 pm

Iran must feel special, doing new modifications on a 45-year old aircraft!  Wow!
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
L-188
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:34 pm

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 5):
Iran must feel special, doing new modifications on a 45-year old aircraft!

Hard to belive that sucker is isn't it. 1959!

But seriously, it does look like a foam RC model of a F-18 in those colors.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Devilfish
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:06 am

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 2):

Sad that they want "warmed over" F-5's vs getting their F-14's in flyable condition.

This piece outlines the efforts and little success in that goal.....

http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/2007918225711.asp

Quoting L-188 (Reply 6):
But seriously, it does look like a foam RC model of a F-18 in those colors.

http://www.payvand.com/news/07/sep/1232.html

"Thunderbolt and Lightning" - make one almost expect Freddie Mercury to pop out of the cockpit!  Smile
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
dl021
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:26 am

Iranian expenditure in this area is perhaps misspent. They would be much better off buying Russian fighters than spending any real time re-building these F-5s. There's plenty of more capable MiG 29s out there available for probably about the same as they're spending turning these F-5s into aircraft that can't compete with their expected opponents.

If they spend any money on the F-5s it ought to be for re-engining them with something they can produce in house, or with something they can buy on the open market.

On the other hand I'm glad they aren't buying anything more effective.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
md90fan
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:19 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 8):
There's plenty of more capable MiG 29s out there available for probably about the same as they're spending turning these F-5s into aircraft that can't compete with their expected opponents.

Exactly, Sudan recently purchased 12 ~1990-vintage MiG-29s from Soviet stocks, had them refurbished and delivered for $120,000,000.
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
texl1649
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:36 am

Would this even compare to the 20-year old F-20 Tigershark? Wasn't that rejected precisely because it couldn't compete with F-16's (block 25 at that!)?

For a Persian Gulf country rationing oil among it's citizenry, it really is simply stupifying. I refuse to believe they didn't even change the engines.
 
strudders
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:27 am

Those are 2 diferent versions (although the same F5 under neither)

Seems they have changed the In takes, Square, verses rounded and there are differences on the tailplanes as well.

Different engines perhaps?

Regards

Struds
 
Queso
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:17 am

Quoting TexL1649 (Reply 10):
Would this even compare to the 20-year old F-20 Tigershark?

No. And that's what I was thinking when I saw these planes.

Quoting TexL1649 (Reply 10):
Wasn't that rejected precisely because it couldn't compete with F-16's (block 25 at that!)?

It could compete quite favorably, it's just that Northrop didn't have the political muscle at the time to have their design accepted. It would have been as difficult to push out an already inventoried machine (the F-16) as it is to unseat an incumbent Senator or Representative.
 
Devilfish
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:45 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 8):
Iranian expenditure in this area is perhaps misspent. They would be much better off buying Russian fighters than spending any real time re-building these F-5s. There's plenty of more capable MiG 29s out there available for probably about the same as they're spending turning these F-5s into aircraft that can't compete with their expected opponents.

I think their near-term aim is not so much to come up with a world beater, than gaining the knowledge and experience. The ultimate goal of course is to eventually be capable of independently manufacturing a credible, reliable jet fighter able to mix it up with what others have to offer.

Quoting TexL1649 (Reply 10):
Would this even compare to the 20-year old F-20 Tigershark?

If they retained the J-85 engines, its relative the Tigershark, would probably smoke it.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © AirNikon



Quoting TexL1649 (Reply 10):
Wasn't that rejected precisely because it couldn't compete with F-16's (block 25 at that!)?

On the contrary, the F-20 was hamstrung because it presented too much of a competition.

Anyway, thanks to Shahram (I guess the OP and the photog to be the same person) for providing us with photos from inside Iran.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
pilotntrng
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:46 am

Sorry for the dumb question, but how did they get the F-5 frames?
Booooo Lois, Yaaaa Beer!!!
 
Spacepope
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:08 am

Quoting PilotNTrng (Reply 14):
Sorry for the dumb question, but how did they get the F-5 frames?

We sold tem to the Iranians, pre 1979.

What are we up to now, 3 different modifications of the F-5?

F-5 with twin fins
F-5 with twin fins, square intakes, and only one 20mm cannon
F-5 with mid mouinted wing and LERX....

Can't wait till they do this with their F-4s!
The last of the famous international playboys
 
ebj1248650
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:40 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 8):
If they spend any money on the F-5s it ought to be for re-engining them with something they can produce in house, or with something they can buy on the open market.

An engine equivalent of the F404 ... which would allow them to produce something akin to the F-20?
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
texl1649
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:41 am

Can a mid-mounted wing be a good thing for an F-5?
 
hunterson
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:42 pm

With many thanks to SHAHRAM16216 for the info provided on the "new" Iranian fighter, this is obviously turning now into a kind of guessing game about how many variants of the "good old F-5 " have the Iranians managed to copy and develop, let alone prduce and deploy.

Can somebody please explain what are we talking about here? What exactly is the SAEGHE and what differences are there between it and the AZARKHSH, and which if any has attained production and/or service, and why?

Does anyone have any credible data on the performance and operational features of these planes, or their engines, equipment, armament, ..etc?

Are the Iraniians simply re-manufacturing the old airframes of their original F-5s supplied to them by the US back in the days of the Shah more than 30 years ago, or are they building ( or copying ) them from scratch as new?

And why on earth are they doing this and spending their time and effort and money on trying to copy and "upgrade" a design which is essentially nearly 50 years old( going back to the days of the original T-38 Talon and F-5A/B Freedom Fighter in the 1950s) , when they have ready access to the latest top of the range Russian fighters , some of which they already operate, such as the MiG-29 and Sukhoi-24, and others which they are on the verge of receiving, such as the Sukhoi-30 and MiG-31?

Or is it all part of a bigger and wider "PR" game to try to tell the rest of the world: see what we can do on our own?
 
OD720
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:37 pm

Quoting Hunterson (Reply 18):

These are exactly my thoughts. Nothing has been released as regards of the performance and other technical data and as you mentioned could be a PR propaganda and a morale boost to the Iranians.

But as DEVILFISH said in his post, it is an effort maybe for future designs.
 
L-188
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:44 pm

Quoting Hunterson (Reply 18):
Or is it all part of a bigger and wider "PR" game to try to tell the rest of the world: see what we can do on our own?

I think that is what it is exactly.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:24 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 13):
On the contrary, the F-20 was hamstrung because it presented too much of a competition.
What a bunch of nonsense. The F-20 was the last attempt to squeeze as much as possible left in a 1950's design with absolutely no room for any growth. It was basically a dead end. F-16 opened a new era of fighter jets, is one of the biggest commercial successes in fighter jets, and is still commercially very alive after almost 30 years.Even the 104 pilots of the RNLAF (the Dutch had F-5's and F-104's alongside which where both gradually replaced by the F-16) called the F-5's dinky toys.

Quoting Hunterson (Reply 18):
Or is it all part of a bigger and wider "PR" game to try to tell the rest of the world: see what we can do on our own?
I guess it's because Persia and Iran (despite the current political situation) has always been focused on the west and the united states. They are still more familiar with the US product and they have ambition to have their own production capability. If they would buy of the shelve Russian planes, they will never achieve autonomy in that respect. Developing their own aircraft based on Russian technology is harder (they are not that familiar with it) and the Russians (which they need) probably won't let them (or they have to pay dearly).

my 2 cents..

[Edited 2007-09-23 10:25:00]
 
Devilfish
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:10 pm

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 21):
What a bunch of nonsense. The F-20 was the last attempt to squeeze as much as possible left in a 1950's design with absolutely no room for any growth. It was basically a dead end. F-16 opened a new era of fighter jets, is one of the biggest commercial successes in fighter jets, and is still commercially very alive after almost 30 years.

It wouldn't be nonsense if you consider that most of the eventual F-16 customers would have bought the less expensive but very capable Tigershark were they given the chance as it wouldn't require extra infrastructure support, them being mostly existing F-5 operators. The original J79 F-16 didn't offer much over the F-20, and wouldn't have been improved as quickly and had as wide a client base much later were the Tigershark there. That "growth" was the reason the F-20 was deliberately stifled as the F-16 allowed the defense industry to sell ever increasing and expensive weapons to those countries. Not to mention the officials pushing for their pet F-16 project.

[Edited 2007-09-23 15:34:26]
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:34 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 22):
It wouldn't be nonsense if you consider that most of the eventual F-16 customers would have bought the less expensive but very capable Tigershark were they given the chance as it wouldn't require extra infrastructure support, them being mostly existing F-5 operators. The original J79 F-16 didn't offer much over the F-20, and wouldn't have been improved as quickly and had as wide a client base much later were the Tigershark there. That "growth" was the reason the F-20 was deliberately stifled as the F-16 allowed the defense industry to sell ever increasing and expensive weapons to those countries. Not to mention the officials pushing for their pet F-16 project.

I think you are being rather emotional. The F-20 was still a 3d generation fighter. The F-16 a 4th generation fighter. Just look at the way they are built.
 
Devilfish
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:55 am

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 23):
I think you are being rather emotional. The F-20 was still a 3d generation fighter. The F-16 a 4th generation fighter. Just look at the way they are built.

And I think you're the one being non-sensical in dismissing the value of an effective economical platform to the countries it was offered to. And its a testament to Northrop's build quality that even now, F-5s are being upgraded with updated systems and continue serving their adopting countries making the initial investment pay off many times over. Meanwhile, the costlier F-16s were often relegated to the boneyard at a comparatively younger age if not given still another expensive mid-life upgrade.

And as to being emotional about fighters and their generations, look who said this.....

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 15):
would take on a Rafale with a block52 F-16 any day


[Edited 2007-09-23 23:07:33]
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
texl1649
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:42 am

I really think it is well documented that the F-20 offered 90 percent of the performance for about half the cost of F-16's, but much less glamor. If you're signing a multi-billion dollar purchase as a third/second-world leader, and are offered glamor vs. cheap it turns out the market selected 'glamor.' F-20 salesmen would agree, trust me.

The F-20's primary improvement over the F-5E (yes, it had an all-new cockpit), was it's engine. No way this twin-vert. can compare, IMHO.
 
hunterson
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:33 am

Is it not missing the point slightly when the emphasis here seems to have shifted from exploring whatever info we might ,or might not , have on the Iranian Saeghe derivative of the F-5, to discussing the merits, or otherwise, of the F-20 Tigershark?

Maybe we have to bear in mind for a moment that the Iranian fighter is NOT a Tigershark !

We still have very little confirmed data on what type of engines it has, let alone its avionics, fire control systems, radar, armament, aerodynamics, performance parameters, ..etc.

It would probably be a far better idea , in my opinion , to try to get such vital info on what the Iranians have managed to actually come up with , before we are able to form an educated view on this matter.
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:19 am

Quoting TexL1649 (Reply 25):
really think it is well documented that the F-20 offered 90 percent of the performance for about half the cost of F-16's, but much less glamor.

and with absolutely no growth whatsoever, while in the end the F-16 is the biggest commercial succes ever for a jet fighter (not just for industry) and the aircraft has grown massively in capability.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 24):
And as to being emotional about fighters and their generations, look who said this.....

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 15):
would take on a Rafale with a block52 F-16 any day

nothing emotional about that friend  Wink
 
hunterson
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:20 am

It might be worth mentioning that the far more interesting , and important , weapon system that the Iranians revealed in their recent military parade, was NOT the Saeghe, or any other fighter, but rather their new medium range ballistic missile, which they call the " QADR-1 ", and which they claim has a range of 1800km.

The new Iranian MRBM is a further development of the so-called " SHEHAB-3 ", which itself is a development of the original Soviet-made SCUD family of ballistic SSMs.

It has been quite well known for a while now that the Iranians have been engaged in a programme , in co-operation with both North Korea and Syria, to develop and deploy a new family of ballistic missiles based on the original Soviet-era design of the SCUD short-range SSM.

These have included a version referred to as SCUD-C, with a range of 600km., compared to 200km. for the original SCUD-A and 300km. for the modified SCUD-B. This was followed by another upgraded version called the SCUD-D with a reported range of 750km., and also a heavier warhead ( 800kg. compared to 500kg. ), as well as better accuracy ( 150meter CEP, compared to an original 500-1000meter CEP ).

Perhaps it is interesting to note that the reported programme to produce ,or at least assemble the SCUD-D domestically in both Iran and Syria, has been going on now for several years with North Korean assistance and direct participation.

Meanwhile, the Iranians had embarked on their own programme ( also with North Korean help ) to produce and deploy the SHEHAB family of SSMs, which included the SHEHAB-1 ( SCUD-C copy ), the SHEHAB-2 (SCUD-D copy ), and the SHEHAB-3 ( a longer range variant up to 1200km. ).

Now, we are introduced to the QADR-1 SSM with a range of 1800km. and almost certainly all of the above-mentioned improvements.

No one knows for certain,yet, if this new SSM has entered service or not ( the Iranians claim it has! ), or if it is only intended for Iranian use , or joint Syrian and Iranian deployment. However, and whatever the case may be, it is very obviously designed as a potential delivery system for WMD warheads as a strategic MRBM.

No wonder the whole Syrian-Iranian-North Korean triangle is becoming increasingly interesting by the day, and providing both the US and the Israelis ( not to mention some Europeans and perhaps some Arabs as well ) a great deal of food for thought !!!
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:00 pm

Quoting TexL1649 (Reply 10):
Would this even compare to the 20-year old F-20 Tigershark? Wasn't that rejected precisely because it couldn't compete with F-16's (block 25 at that!)?

While I agree I dont consider the Iran jets a threat you are wrong in your assumption that the F-16 could out compete the F-20 Tiger Shark and very wrong at that. The F-20 tiger shark could fly circles around the F-16 and not look back. Nothrop just made to big of a gamble and lost the bid politically "Chuck Yeager" who flew the F-20 stated that the F-20 was the best fighter never developed.
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:48 am

Quoting Hunterson (Reply 28):
Syrian-Iranian-North Korean triangle is becoming increasingly interesting by the day

Come on, not another axis of evil. We've been there, done that.. couple of countries are in ruins now..

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 29):
The F-20 tiger shark could fly circles around the F-16 and not look back.

 biggrin   bouncy  I nearly fell of my chair laughing about thisone!
 
KevinSmith
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:41 am

Geez, next thing you know the Chinese will be making second hand copies of the F-16.....Oh wait.
Learning to fly, but I ain't got wings.
 
Devilfish
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:22 am

Quoting Hunterson (Reply 26):
Is it not missing the point slightly when the emphasis here seems to have shifted from exploring whatever info we might ,or might not , have on the Iranian Saeghe derivative of the F-5, to discussing the merits, or otherwise, of the F-20 Tigershark?

Absent performance figures, it serves as a point of comparison of the observable differences from which discussion of the possible rationales could be launched. As to missing the point and shifting emphasis, this missed the whole barn totally and should be in a new thread.....

Quoting Hunterson (Reply 28):
It might be worth mentioning that the far more interesting , and important , weapon system that the Iranians revealed in their recent military parade, was NOT the Saeghe, or any other fighter, but rather their new medium range ballistic missile, which they call the " QADR-1 ", and which they claim has a range of 1800km.



Quoting Hunterson (Reply 26):
It would probably be a far better idea , in my opinion , to try to get such vital info on what the Iranians have managed to actually come up with, before we are able to form an educated view on this matter.

I doubt the Iranians would volunteer the information, so short of launching an intelligence operation, we'd be limited to what we read here and elsewhere, and continue to speculate.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...gheh-fighter-enters-service-02596/

In light of the foregoing, I excuse myself and reply to my friend.....

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 30):
Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 29):
The F-20 tiger shark could fly circles around the F-16 and not look back.

I nearly fell of my chair laughing about thisone!

Comparing the competing variants.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-20_Tigershark

Quote:
"While its performance was comparable to the Block 1/5/10 F-16 and superior to the turbojet-powered export-variant F-16/79"

(Please feel free to supply the missing data for the F-16/J79.)

Specifications (F-20) Specifications (F-16/J79)

Engine: One General Electric F404-GE-100 Engine: One General Electric J79-GE-17X turbojet,
turbofan, 17,000 lbf (76 kN) turbojet, 18,000 lbf
Radar: General Electric AN/APG-67 Radar: Westinghouse AN/APG-66

* Empty weight: 11,220 lb (5,090 kg) Empty weight: 17,042 lb 25,646 pounds
* Loaded weight: 15,060 lb (6,830 kg) Loaded weight: 25,646 pounds
* Max takeoff weight: 26,290 lb (11,920 kg) Max takeoff weight: 37,500 pounds
* Thrust/weight: 1.13 Thrust/weight: 0.70

Performance Performance

* Maximum speed: Mach 2.1 Maximum speed: Mach 2.0
* Rate of climb: 50,030 ft/min (255 m/s) Rate of climb: 00,000 ft/min (000 m/s)
* Service ceiling: 55,000 ft (16,800 m) Service ceiling: 00,000 ft (00,000 m)
* Combat radius: 300 NM (345 mi, 555 km) Combat radius: 000 NM (000 mi, 000 km)
* Ferry range: 1,490 NM (1,715 mi, 2,760 km) Ferry range: 1,490 NM (1,715 mi, 2,760 km)


As a consolation or a form of poetic justice, both of them did not sell - never getting beyond the prototype stage.....

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article12.html

Quote:
Because of the high financial risk involved with the FX program, only two proposals were ultimately submitted: Northrop entered the F-5G/F-20, while General Dynamics teamed with General Electric to produce a less-capable export version of the Fighting Falcon, powered by a derivative of the J79 single-shaft turbojet. This project was announced by General Dynamics in November of 1979.

[.....]

The J79-powered F-16 was initially offered to Venezuela as a substitute for the F-16A/B's that had originally been ordered. An evaluation team from Venezuela flew the F-16/79 in February of 1981. It was considered by as many as 20 other air arms, and briefings on the F16/79 were given to Austria, Jordan, Malaysia, Nigeria, Singapore, Taiwan and Thailand.

[.....]

The F-16/79 was attractive to other air arms only so long as politics and funding prevented them from purchasing the F100-powered F-16A/B. In 1980, President Carter relaxed his policy and allowed the delivery of some export F-16A/Bs to proceed, and the election of President Ronald Reagan later that year ensured that most foreign customers would have no problem in purchasing the F-16A/B provided they could come up with the cash. Consequently, no F-16/79s were sold."
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
hunterson
Posts: 140
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:51 am

Quoting KevinSmith (Reply 31):
Come on, not another axis of evil. We've been there, done that.. couple of countries are in ruins now

[ I am not exactly sure what do you mean by " another " axis of evil. It is the bloody SAME axis of evil, and if you can not see it now, wait till it happens and then you will find out what it means to have a Middle East with a nuclear Iran, Syria with chemical and possibly biological SSMs, and every other mini dictator in that God-foresaken region also trying to do what the other has done and build a BOMB for himself.

As for Saddams WMDs, I trust none of us was in Halabja and other parts of Iraqi Kurdistan in the north , or in the Shiite areas of the south when "Chemical Ali" ( Saddams cousin ) was blasting the hell out of the innocent civilians in those regions with his precious WMDs which were supposedly never found by Dr, Blix and his teams.

the fact that Saddams WMDs were not found ( or more accurately have not yet been found ) does not mean at all that they were not there at some stage , nor does it mean that they were notactually used with lethal and tragic effects by that regime against its own people and against its neighbours. And most certainly, it does not , and should never mean that the door now has become open for other similar regimes to acquire whatever they fancy of these lethally destructive weapons with impunity simply because the world has decided now to sit back and watch, pretending that nothing is going on , or even worse, that it is none of its business.]
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:26 am

hey, I''m not contesting Iraq had them in the past, but, after the first gulf war they did massively disarm. The isreali's already put an end to the Iraqi nuclear programme in the 80's and they were an easy target (in stead of a threat). Al though it's a good thing Saddam is gone, almost anything that could have been done wrong, has been done wrong afterwards.

Historia Magistra Vitae

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 32):

You are comparing the Tigreshark to the downgraded shitty export version of the F-16 that was never sold? That's not a proper comparison is it? Or what is your point? There would have been an export market for the F-20 alongside the F-16?

[Edited 2007-09-27 22:38:37]
 
KevinSmith
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:33 am

Quoting Hunterson (Reply 33):
Hunterson

I didn't say that. F27 did.


Has anyone else noticed people's quotes being linked to the wrong username? Any idea why that happens?
Learning to fly, but I ain't got wings.
 
hunterson
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:59 am

To KevinSmith,

Yes indeed. My apologies to you. But it is really not my fault. I thought I had used the right quote from F27 but for some unknown reason to me it took it down as your quote. let us just call it a " technical" error!
 
Devilfish
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:01 am

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 34):

You are comparing the Tigreshark to the downgraded shitty export version of the F-16 that was never sold? That's not a proper comparison is it? Or what is your point? There would have been an export market for the F-20 alongside the F-16?

That was the perfect comparison since the F-16/J79 was the one put up against the F-20 for the FX program, and both were in the same price bracket. Only when they saw that it would lose to the Tigershark did they allow the wider release of F-16A/Bs, the first blocks of which were acknowledged as comparable to the F-20. Anyway, glad you admitted to an F-16 being "shitty." And it's not too far-fetched to think the Tigershark gaining many export orders if it enjoyed the Government backing and FMS support that the Falcon had - as Taiwan and Korea were ready to buy the Tigershark even without that incentive.

Quoting KevinSmith (Reply 35):
Has anyone else noticed people's quotes being linked to the wrong username? Any idea why that happens?

It happens when one inadvertently quotes an already quoted passage instead of the original post.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Sat Sep 29, 2007 2:59 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 37):
That was the perfect comparison since the F-16/J79 was the one put up against the F-20 for the FX program, and both were in the same price bracket. Only when they saw that it would lose to the Tigershark did they allow the wider release of F-16A/Bs, the first blocks of which were acknowledged as comparable to the F-20. Anyway, glad you admitted to an F-16 being "shitty." And it's not too far-fetched to think the Tigershark gaining many export orders if it enjoyed the Government backing and FMS support that the Falcon had - as Taiwan and Korea were ready to buy the Tigershark even without that incentive.

lol. the export version was meant to be shitty. The eventual F-16 is a beauty. I can follow you that the F-20 might have been a good export product (like the F-5 which wasn;t used for combat purpouses by the US itself, but a lot of allies found it usefull)
 
ebj1248650
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:37 am

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 21):
What a bunch of nonsense. The F-20 was the last attempt to squeeze as much as possible left in a 1950's design with absolutely no room for any growth. It was basically a dead end.

No! The F-20 offered significantly greater performance than the F-5E. That the F-16 was superior isn't in question because it was. What killed the F-20 was something called bad timing: It arrived when something far superior was already available. Granted, it was cheaper than the F-16, but those countries with money to buy new tactical aircraft wanted the '16 and weren't about to take the F-20 as an interim solution to their needs.
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:25 pm

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 39):
No! The F-20 offered significantly greater performance than the F-5E. That the F-16 was superior isn't in question because it was. What killed the F-20 was something called bad timing: It arrived when something far superior was already available. Granted, it was cheaper than the F-16, but those countries with money to buy new tactical aircraft wanted the '16 and weren't about to take the F-20 as an interim solution to their needs.

sure it gave significant better performance over the F5-E, but that was about all they could sqweeze out of it.

Your other points I totally agree with
 
highlander0
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:17 pm

Right, so back to the topic in hand.

So there are 3 'new' a/c.


The Shafaq has yet to enter service, while the other two have entered service, but in low numbers.
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:46 pm

That Shafaq looks rather interesting! Allthough I can't help to think it looks a lot like the latest Alenia and Yak trainers.
 
Devilfish
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:43 pm

Okay, going back to the feasibility of changing the engines......

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 16):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 8):
If they spend any money on the F-5s it ought to be for re-engining them with something they can produce in house, or with something they can buy on the open market.

An engine equivalent of the F404 ... which would allow them to produce something akin to the F-20?

They could've adapted an old engine from one of their MiGs. For a new engine and simpler work, the only thing that comes to mind that would approximate the F404 and which they could've secretly gotten from Russia is Klimov's RD93.....

http://en.klimov.ru/production/aircraft/RD-33-family/

Quote:
"Universal platform

The RD-33 engine family includes the following versions:

* RD-33 series series 3, an engine with a longer service life;
* RD-33B/NB, an engine without the afterburner for various types of aircraft;
* SMR-95, an engine for upgrading foreign 2nd and 3rd generation jet fighters;
* RD-93, a version for the FC-1 airplane;
* RD-33MK (Sea Wasp), an improved version of RD-33 for new MiG-35 jet fighters and MiG29K shipborne fighters."


While also a candidate, I discounted the SMR95 due to its lenght. The specs for the RD93 are available here.....

http://jf-17.com/engine.htm

It was already shown that a change to a single powerplant works, but the Saeqeh still sports the twin nozzles. Either they found a way to adapt a single engine to those, or they could have used something roughly similar to TFE31s like those on Yak-42s if they provide more power?

[Edited 2007-09-30 15:44:44]
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
L-188
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:08 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 43):
or they could have used something roughly similar to TFE31s like those on Yak-42s if they provide more power?

I don't know, maybe they are re-working old Lear-25 motors.

There ain't a lot of diamter in those plants.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
hunterson
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:09 am

Now that Iran and Russia have officially signed a deal for 50 RD-33 engines reportedly intended to power the so-called Azarakhsh variant of the F-5E Tiger , I guess it will have to be assumed that the Azarakhsh is a single-engined fighter, since it would be hard to imagine such a small airframe taking two relatively large and fuel thirsty engines without any substantial changes in its size and corresponding dimensions.
So, if the Azarakhsh is going to be a single-engined RD-33 powered version of the F-5E, what will the power plants of the Saeghe be?
And, by the way, contrary to all Iranian propaganda claims, none of these so-called locally developed fighters has yet entered operational service. According to all reliable reports, the Saeghe is still in prototype stage with a maximum of three units currently in flying condition, while the Azarakhsh might be one step ahead ,thanks to Russian technical assistance, with 5-10 airframes having been produced so far pending the delivery of the RD-33s from Russia to start series production sometime in 2008.
 
L-188
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:37 am

Quoting Hunterson (Reply 45):
Now that Iran and Russia have officially signed a deal for 50 RD-33 engines reportedly intended to power the so-called Azarakhsh variant of the F-5E Tiger

I hate to say it but that sounds like a screamer.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Acheron
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:29 am

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 42):
That Shafaq looks rather interesting! Allthough I can't help to think it looks a lot like the latest Alenia and Yak trainers.

Its actually a design based on the cancelled MiG-i-2000
 
jetjeanes
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:04 am

I assume they will be doing airshows or something with these planes like tha angels.. I guess if they get severl more they could be the blue devils
i can see for 80 miles
 
silentbob
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RE: Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)!

Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:37 pm

Quote:
Iran has signed a deal with China to buy two squadrons of J-10 fighter planes that are based on Israeli technology, the Russian news agency Novosti reported Tuesday.

The 24 aircraft are based on technology and components provided to China by Israel following the cancellation of the Lavi project in the mid-1980s. The engines of the J-10 are Russian-made.

The total cost of the planes is estimated at $1 billion, and deliveries are expected between 2008 and 2010.

http://www.thejewishbugle.com/content/view/1194/150/

Another interesting development for Iran.

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