Venus6971
Topic Author
Posts: 1415
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:55 pm

Cost Overuns May Doom C-5 Upgrade

Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:25 am

I don't know, how about cutting another 20'000 troops to pay for it or retire a much needed weapons system if the K street lobbyist guys had their way.
http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2007/09/airforce_c5upgrades_070923w/
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
JohnM
Posts: 379
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: Cost Overuns May Doom C-5 Upgrade

Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:41 am

If the same guys who did AMP are on the RERP project, the airplane is doomed. The cost over runs are not a surprise to me.
 
TropicBird
Posts: 432
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RE: Cost Overuns May Doom C-5 Upgrade

Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:59 am

Another article with the Sec. AF making it clear the program is in trouble.


http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070924/lockheed_martin_c_5_costs.html?.v=1
 
ebj1248650
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RE: Cost Overuns May Doom C-5 Upgrade

Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:49 pm

I supposed the big question is "Do we still need an airlifter the size of the C-5?" If we do, we'll just have to eat the cost over-runs. If we don't, how many C-17s would we need to make up for the number of C-5s no longer in the inventory? And could this mean a resurrection of the idea of building a stretched C-17?
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
bennett123
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RE: Cost Overuns May Doom C-5 Upgrade

Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:24 am

When is the C17 production ending?

They need to get a move on.
 
Venus6971
Topic Author
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RE: Cost Overuns May Doom C-5 Upgrade

Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:34 am

Maybe if the C-5 fleet does not survive the attack of the bean counters maybe a Sqaudron of these for those real oversized loads
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Fred Seggie - WorldAirImages

I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
AirRyan
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RE: Cost Overuns May Doom C-5 Upgrade

Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:15 am

Wow, where these people looking to cancel the program when it came to the USMC's V-22 and H-1 upgrade program - those programs should have been cancelled long ago due to a variety of reasons of which costs are a big reason.
 
BladeLWS
Posts: 358
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:41 pm

RE: Cost Overuns May Doom C-5 Upgrade

Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:34 am

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 5):
Maybe if the C-5 fleet does not survive the attack of the bean counters maybe a Sqaudron of these for those real oversized loads
View Large View Medium

The thing is that the C-5 enables the USAF to load/offload stuff without the need for lifts and other services etc etc.
 
JohnM
Posts: 379
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RE: Cost Overuns May Doom C-5 Upgrade

Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:58 am

I think if the V-22 / UH-1/ AH-1 go or no go decision was made today, they might not survived. The budget issues are for real now, and I don't think too much is going to squeak by if it has serious questions. The AF has cut 40,000 troops, and still has big money problems. I think how we kicked the USSR's ass in spending during the cold war, we are now doing to ourselves, as over commited as we are all over the globe. If the wars stopped today, we are in a hole that will take many years to dig out of. I think the B models will get the RERP mod, and the A models are going to go out to pasture.
 
AirRyan
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RE: Cost Overuns May Doom C-5 Upgrade

Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:18 pm

Quoting JohnM (Reply 8):
I think if the V-22 / UH-1/ AH-1 go or no go decision was made today, they might not survived. The budget issues are for real now, and I don't think too much is going to squeak by if it has serious questions. The AF has cut 40,000 troops, and still has big money problems. I think how we kicked the USSR's ass in spending during the cold war, we are now doing to ourselves, as over commited as we are all over the globe. If the wars stopped today, we are in a hole that will take many years to dig out of. I think the B models will get the RERP mod, and the A models are going to go out to pasture.

IMO the USMC way over-extended itself with regards to paying for the replcement of their entire Air Wing - they at least from today onward need to buy relatively inexpensive Super Hornets and Growlers and learn to love them because they spent their wad of cash on the V-22.
 
User avatar
Revelation
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RE: Cost Overuns May Doom C-5 Upgrade

Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:16 pm

Ok, I'm naive, I admit it, but I'm reading that LM says they have a firm fixed price contract to deliver at $83M a plane: if it's fixed price, what are we arguing about?

Quote:
“Lockheed Martin has submitted a firm-fixed price offer to modernize the remaining C-5 aircraft in the Air Force fleet at a per unit average price of $83 million — a price below Nunn-McCurdy thresholds,” said Jim Grant, vice president of Aero Business Development, Air Mobility and Special Operations Forces for Lockheed. “We have confidence in our cost estimates but are currently working with the Air Force to further refine those estimates.”

I suppose in Washingtonese "firm-fixed price offer" really means "estimated price"?
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Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
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T56A15
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RE: Cost Overuns May Doom C-5 Upgrade

Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:32 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 10):
I suppose in Washingtonese "firm-fixed price offer" really means "estimated price"?

Looks like the lobbyists have arrived. http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stories/2007/02/26/daily59.html Sen. Claire McCaskill, D-Mo. (does Boeing have some kind of presence in Missouri?) is now introducing legislation to start yet another time/money consuming airlift study to determine what we already know. Get rid of a few C-5A' s with the most costly structural problems and upgrade the rest at a bargain $83 million per airframe. Backfill the lost airlift capacity with contract air for contingencies.
 
Venus6971
Topic Author
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RE: Cost Overuns May Doom C-5 Upgrade

Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:18 pm

Quoting T56A15 (Reply 11):
(does Boeing have some kind of presence in Missouri?)

Ah yes, they have a assembly plant in St Louis that builds the F-18E/F and F-15 mudhens

Quoting BladeLWS (Reply 7):
The thing is that the C-5 enables the USAF to load/offload stuff without the need for lifts and other services etc etc

The C-17 can handle "almost" everything the C-5 can do but not as much. The C-5C was bulit to handle oversized loads for NASA such as huge rocket stages. The roll on and roll off capabilty is nice for massive deployment of wheeled and tracked vehicles but for everyday use of standard supplies most of which are palletized which most USAF ATOC's already have the equipment on hand to offload the 747F's. Now with a small number of LCF's the DOD's requirement for special oversized requests will be met with a whole lot better dispatch reliability than a C-5 could only dream of. As an aircraft mechanic I would always chose MD or Boeing over Lockheed.
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
seefivein
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:52 pm

RE: Cost Overuns May Doom C-5 Upgrade

Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:15 am

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 12):
As an aircraft mechanic I would always chose MD or Boeing over Lockheed

Are we talking about all Lockheed or just the Cargo planes which were designed and built some 50 to 60 years ago?

Have not heard anything bad about MD.
 
ebj1248650
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RE: Cost Overuns May Doom C-5 Upgrade

Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:55 am

Quoting Seefivein (Reply 13):
Are we talking about all Lockheed or just the Cargo planes which were designed and built some 50 to 60 years ago?

C-130 fits into that category and it's been a great airplane. If you're talking within the last 50 years then the C-141 is included and it served very well.
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
T56A15
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RE: Cost Overuns May Doom C-5 Upgrade

Fri Sep 28, 2007 3:26 am

The article linked in my post mentioned some 1,850 jobs in Missouri that could be eliminated if the C-17 line is shut down. Just wondering if Sen. McCaskill was scaring up a study to buy more C-17's. That move may be good for the St. Louis and Long Beach area but may not be particularly good for the military or the tax payers. I know the mission capable rate is poor for the C-5, but would upgraded engines and avionics plus a move of some of the fleet to the guard and reserve improve it's performance? I don't think we'll be ever find out if the C-5 A's and some of the B's are sent to the desert.
 
echster
Posts: 394
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RE: Cost Overuns May Doom C-5 Upgrade

Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:34 am

The most obvious solution is to take the C-5 RERP/AMP money and buy new-build C-17s. Look, this boondoggle is going to run $15-20 billion for essentially new engines and glass cockpits. Why not replace the 100 x C-5s with 100 x C-17s at $200 million each for the same $20 billion price tag?
 
seefivein
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RE: Cost Overuns May Doom C-5 Upgrade

Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:18 am

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