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alberchico
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Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:32 pm

http://englishrussia.com/?p=1362

it looks very similar to the U.S. shuttle......
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
Acheron
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:45 pm

Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter):
it looks very similar to the U.S. shuttle......

Quite so, yet the Buran had a bigger cargo hold and was capable of carrying a slightly larger payload. Also, slightly more advanced than the shuttle in the sense that its first and only flight was unmanned, using autopilot.
 
highlander0
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:01 am

Incredible when seeing the launch platform being powered by two desiel locomotives.


They still use them to take rockets to the launch pad. Well as "they" say- what ain't broke!
 
Thorny
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:24 am

Quoting Highlander0 (Reply 2):
They still use them to take rockets to the launch pad. Well as "they" say- what ain't broke!

So did Titan IV at Cape Canaveral. I'm not sure if Atlas V still does.
 
JeffSFO
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:07 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 1):
Also, slightly more advanced than the shuttle in the sense that its first and only flight was unmanned, using autopilot.

Hardly. The reason it was unmanned was that there was no life-support system on board and there was no software installed for the CRT displays:

http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/rsa/buran.html

IMO, that made it considerably less advanced than the US Shuttle.
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:32 pm

Quoting JeffSFO (Reply 4):
Hardly. The reason it was unmanned was that there was no life-support system on board and there was no software installed for the CRT displays:

http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/rsa/buran.html

IMO, that made it considerably less advanced than the US Shuttle.

while the shuttle is only launched at extremely favourable weather conditions and requires a 10 km runway, the Buran was launched under conditions we could describe as "bad" , and landed with an autopilot on an only 4 km runway..

The russians launch when they say launch, I believe they don't even have a countdown.
 
Thorny
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:20 pm

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 5):
while the shuttle is only launched at extremely favourable weather conditions and requires a 10 km runway, the Buran was launched under conditions we could describe as "bad" , and landed with an autopilot on an only 4 km runway..


The Shuttle Landing Facility at Kennedy Space Center has a 15,000 foot (4.5 km) runway, not 10 km.

The U.S. Shuttle is fully capable of autolanding. Pilots are only required to deploy the air data probes, lower the landing gear, and pop the drag chute (irreversible actions NASA doesn't trust to a computer). These tasks would be computerized (with a hot wire system) for an emergency landing if a Shuttle were damaged in orbit and the crew took refuge on the Space Station. But pilots being pilots, they don't want computers flying their ship, so they have thwarted NASA's autolanding demonstrations in the past (it was scheduled for STS-52 in 1992.) Pilots usually take over control of the landing when the Shuttle drops below Mach 1.

Buran's thermal protection system didn't hold up well on its only flight and some underlying structures were dangerously weakened, which is why it never flew again. The TPS had to be beefed up for Buran 2 (which was largely finished but never flew.)

Buran's payload advantage was largely due to center-of-gravity constraints resulting from Buran not having 18,000 lbs. of Main Engines in its aft end where the U.S. Shuttle does. Payload bay size is essentially the same. The U.S. considers bringing the engines home for inspection and re-use to be a useful design feature.

The U.S. has learned from hard experience that launching into bad weather is stupid. Russian can continue to roll its dice it if wants to.

[Edited 2007-10-11 10:24:33]
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:31 pm

Quoting Thorny (Reply 6):
which is why it never flew again.

lol! I think it has more to do with the falling appart of the Soviet Union and funding cuts.

Quoting Thorny (Reply 6):
The U.S. has learned from hard experience that launching into bad weather is stupid. Russian can continue to roll its dice it if wants to.

Russians have the best reliability rate with the Soyuz. They simply have a very good understanding of what they can do. They don't roll dices.
 
michlis
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:56 pm

Quote:
Russians have the best reliability rate with the Soyuz. They simply have a very good understanding of what they can do. They don't roll dices.

Which is why they crammed three of their cosmonauts into a Voskhod capsule (designed for two) without pressure suits just to make a record. That wasn't a roll of the dice? I'd like to gamble with you.  stirthepot 
If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the outcome of a hundred battles.
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:42 pm

I read on youtube, that the Russian Buran shuttle, named Ptichka is said to be put into launch. Is this really true ?

read about that spaceshuttle here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuttle_Ptichka
 
Thorny
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:01 pm

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 7):
lol! I think it has more to do with the falling appart of the Soviet Union and funding cuts.

The timetable doesn't match up with the fall of the USSR. Buran 1 flew in 1988. The USSR collapsed in 1991. Why do you suppose Buran 1 did not fly again in that three year interim? (Columbia flew three times in its first year.)

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 7):
Russians have the best reliability rate with the Soyuz. They simply have a very good understanding of what they can do. They don't roll dices.

Their Space Shuttle Buran was generally similar to the U.S. Shuttle, including Thermal Protection System. There is a good reason the U.S. doesn't launch its Shuttle in the rain. Buran would share that weakness. Their Shuttle, like ours, was in no way an all-weather system. They rolled the dice on that one.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 9):
I read on youtube, that the Russian Buran shuttle, named Ptichka is said to be put into launch. Is this really true ?

No. Their Shuttle ("Buran") died in the early 1990s. The only thing left of Energiya/Buran are the Zenit ("Zenith") rockets that Energiya/Buran used as boosters. The Russians spent the last two or three years talking about a new manned spacecraft called Kliper ("Clipper") that was a bit like a mini-Shuttle. Kliper quietly died sometime in the last year.

[Edited 2007-10-11 13:09:56]
 
N74JW
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:04 pm

I hate to be the KharmaSuck, but the last three photos are a product of PhotoShop. Great stuff, though!!!
rm -r *
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:52 pm

Yes, but there were several spaceshuttles built or planned to be built in the PROJECT named Buran. According to the Wikipedia, one of these spaceshuttles are the 95-97% complete " Ptichka ", property of Kazakhstan, at the Baikonur Cosmodrome, in the MIK Building.

If it's in good condition and placed in a hangar or museum, the Russians could start it up again... wild thought I know, but not impossible I think...
 
Thorny
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:21 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 12):
If it's in good condition and placed in a hangar or museum, the Russians could start it up again... wild thought I know, but not impossible I think...

It needed Energiya to launch it. Energiya is dead, Russia has moved on to the Angara family as its next-generation launcher.

The Buran that flew in 1988 was destroyed in the 2002 hangar roof collapse. The second orbiter, which was close to being flightworthy in 1991-92, might still be salvagable, but after this much time and neglect, I doubt it. The Russian Shuttle is dead. It was always a response to the U.S. Shuttle, which they thought (incorrectly) was really a weapons system. By the time they found out otherwise, it was too far along to cancel, so they went ahead with it. But the problems with Buran's first flight and the long delay to modify the second (and third) Shuttles pushed the Buran program beyond the end of the USSR, and so the Shuttle program died.

Energiya might have been useful, but even the Soviet-era space program didn't have enough large payloads to justify it. Buran could do nothing that Soyuz/Almaz/Mir couldn't for much less cost. Since Russia had a flying, viable alternative, the Russian Shuttle died.
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:20 pm

The Soviets certainly are the best at copying US designs and trying to improve them. It has been proven time and time again.

I appreciate remarkable Russian technology and innovation when it isn't stolen.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
FlyUSCG
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:50 am

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 14):
The Soviets certainly are the best at copying US designs and trying to improve them. It has been proven time and time again.

I appreciate remarkable Russian technology and innovation when it isn't stolen.

Oh c'mon now! Similar designs will always come about when similar goals and objectives are laid out (or whatever that rationalization is that always comes up during these types of threads).  Yeah sure
Sarcasm aside, I agree with you. A LOT of Russian equipment looks suspiciously like American equipment. I think the whole B-29 thing speaks for itself. They found a way to cut corners and save costs so they did. And as a result, that mentality stayed with them. Is it wrong, not really. It makes them look kinda pathetic, but whatever floats their boat. And yes Russians have come up with their own great designs and blah blah blah. But thats not what we're talking about.
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fumanchewd
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:28 am

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 15):
Is it wrong, not really.

If it was done in a free market environment it would be a violation of patents. Intellectual property isn't protected for no reason.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
Acheron
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:52 am

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 14):
The Soviets certainly are the best at copying US designs and trying to improve them. It has been proven time and time again.



Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 15):
Oh c'mon now! Similar designs will always come about when similar goals and objectives are laid out (or whatever that rationalization is that always comes up during these types of threads).



Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 15):
A LOT of Russian equipment looks suspiciously like American equipment. I think the whole B-29 thing speaks for itself.

A lot?. Really?. The Su-25 looks similar to the A-10?. Or the Tu-95 looks similar to the B-52?. Hmm, didn't know that.
Ah, yes, they all have wings and a fuselage.
The only true copies the soviets made aside the Nene engine, was the Tu-4/B-29 and the AA-2/AIM-9B.


Please, care to point us to that "lots of copies" you speak of.
 
sovietjet
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:13 am

Big surprise...another thread where the conclusion is that Russia just copied everything  Yeah sure
 
Legs
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:17 pm

Forgive my ignorance, but from looking at the pics of the assembled Energiya/Buran, are the four boosters attached to the main rocket solid or liquid fueled?
 
GDB
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:22 pm

Buran was an unmitigated disaster for the Soviet space programme.
It was, quite literally, built in error.

We know how the original concept of NASA's Shuttle, was distorted to meet the needs of the DoD, not that they had a choice if they wanted a Shuttle, and if they wanted a manned space programme after 1975, they had to have a Shuttle.
However, this military need was about deploying and servicing large spy satellites, in time, really even before the loss of Challenger , this idea had faded.
The Shuttle did fly some military related missions, but never from the intended launch facility at Vandenburg, CA.

The construction of the Shuttle launch facilities at Vandenburg, however convinced the Kremlin that the NASA Shuttle could take off from Vandenburg and release some king of nuclear weapon soon after reaching orbit, for a decapitation attack on the Kremlin!
Nonsense of course, but they believed it.
One reason they did, was because they had worked out for themselves that the touted figures for NASA Shuttle, in launch costs, frequency of use, were BS.

The Soviets might have been Communist, but they could count, they simply could not figure that the agency who had got to the Moon, could replace that still new Apollo/Saturn capability-with so much more growth potential, with such a dubious enterprise as the Shuttle.
They had junked N-1 and with it, any Moon programme, but that had not worked so far, would take a long time to work, had little military spin offs.

So billions of roubles were spent on a Soviet Shuttle counterpart, it's unclear whether a direct copy of this imagined hostile role for the NASA Shuttle, got anywhere near being even designed for the Soviet counterparts.
But inertia, the often chaotic nature of Soviet planning, meant what became Buran ploughed on, soaking up money and resources.

All the while, those who had put the USSR well in the lead in orbital stations, long endurance spaceflight, happily carried on, with no sign of a Buran in Thier planning.
Later, when it became clear that they had been madly wrong about the NASA Shuttle, there might have between an attempt to shoehorn Buran into the Mir/planned Mir replacement programmes, but it was too late, the USSR was coming apart.

NASA of course, hopefully, are now on track to do what they should have been allowed to do 35 years ago, develop further the basic ideas behind Apollo/Saturn, but the passage of time since has meant a clean sheet approach.
 
Thorny
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:03 pm

Quoting Legs (Reply 19):
Forgive my ignorance, but from looking at the pics of the assembled Energiya/Buran, are the four boosters attached to the main rocket solid or liquid fueled?

Liquid (Liquid Oxygen / Kerosene). They are today the first stage of the Zenit rocket used by the SeaLaunch consortium.
 
Thorny
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:12 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 20):
So billions of roubles were spent on a Soviet Shuttle counterpart, it's unclear whether a direct copy of this imagined hostile role for the NASA Shuttle, got anywhere near being even designed for the Soviet counterparts.

There is a little more to it. Buran was nothing but payload on an Energiya launcher (compared to the US Orbiter which is an integral part of the Shuttle launch vehicle.) And the Soviet military wanted Energiya's payload capability to counter the anticipated threat from the then-going-strong U.S. Strategic Defense Initiative ("Star Wars").

The first Energiya launch carried a prototype orbital battleship called Polyus. Polyus failed to reach orbit (it has been conjectured that its failure was deliberate to avoid making clear to the world that the USSR was blatantly militarizing space at a time when they were casting themselves as "peace-loving, anti-Star Wars people.") So the military happily supported the Buran program, giving a "peaceful" fig leaf for the military Energiya project, which had no other realistic uses except to launch space laser weapons and the like.
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:55 pm

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 18):
Big surprise...another thread where the conclusion is that Russia just copied everything

No. Just the Bear, shuttle, Tu144, AN124, and a few others.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
Thorny
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:39 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 17):
A lot?. Really?. The Su-25 looks similar to the A-10?.

No, it looks similar to the Northrop YA-9, which lost to the YA-10 in the A-X competition. Not enough to really be considered a copy though.

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 18):
Big surprise...another thread where the conclusion is that Russia just copied everything

It would REALLY help the Russian cause if, just once, their versions of similar aircraft came first. Even Tu-144 was arguably behind Concorde, even if it did fly first.

In the case of Buran, it is damned difficult to see how Russia followed the exact same train-wreck of decision making, budget cuts and political wheeling and dealing that created the Columbia-class Shuttle in the U.S. in order to arrive at the almost identical Buran series a decade later. That calamity just couldn't have happened twice on opposite sides of the world. Further Buran's payload bay of 15x60 feet was identical to that of the Columbia-class, but the Columbia-class size was dictated by U.S. spy satellite sizes and the need to launch Space Station modules... two influences the USSR did not share (they launched smaller, more frequent spy satellites compared to the US large, infrequent ones and didn't need Buran to launch Space Station modules since they had Energiya.) So why did Buran so closely approximate the U.S. Shuttle?
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:46 pm

Quoting Thorny (Reply 24):
Even Tu-144 was arguably behind Concorde, even if it did fly first.

Not to mention that the Russians acquired plans and diagrams of the Concorde via espionage. A Russian agent was caught with plans and there were certainly others.

Don't get me wrong, I am very impressed with Russian aircraft building. Russia has a long history of important and innovative aircraft design. The new Sukhoi's blow my mind. I am merely bringing this up for those who are comparing the US shuttle to the Russian. It doesn't impress me when the Russians steal designs. Not just a portion here and there, everyone does that. But to steal a whole concept and design does not impress me.

[Edited 2007-10-12 15:51:30]
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
GDB
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Fri Oct 12, 2007 11:44 pm

The whole 'spying on Concorde' thing is over-emphasied, yes they did, but once French intelligence found out, they allowed some doctored info to be supplied!

The trouble with Tu-144 vs Concorde, was rather like the N-1 compared to Saturn V.
Started late, with a smaller budget, with political imperatives to beat the rivals no matter what.
So if you hit technological limitations, 'shunt engineer' to overcome them where possible.
 
N74JW
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Fri Oct 12, 2007 11:52 pm

Quoting Thorny (Reply 24):
It would REALLY help the Russian cause if, just once, their versions of similar aircraft came first. Even Tu-144 was arguably behind Concorde, even if it did fly first.

One example would be the Mig-25 / F-15 designs. You have to admit, they look a great deal alike. The Americans created a better wing, and cockpit layout with the bubble canopy. Both have twin engines, same intake design, but the Ye-155 (1964) which lead to the Mig-25 (1967) came out five years ahead of the F-15 (1972). In the final analysis, the two types are very different, but back then information flowed very slowly. Perhaps it is a very big coincidence that both parties came up with a similar solution to the same aerodynamic problem?
rm -r *
 
GDB
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:16 am

But, Mig-25 and F-15 had different roles.
Mig-25, with it's emphasis on speed and ceiling to the exclusion of nearly everything else, was a counter to the B-70, when that was cancelled as a bomber, against the SR-71.
Basically taking 4 big air to air missiles to maybe within engagement range of such targets, with a very powerful, if crude, radar.

Mig-25 caused a stir, when it's prototypes beat a bunch of performance records, F-15 was partly a counter to these fears, but probably more significant was experience in Vietnam.
The USAF wanted long range, high performance and agility, heavy AAM load.
As 'Century Series' fighters were found wanting in many of these areas, designed as they were for the Nuclear warfare scenarios, only one had sparkling performance (but not agility), the F-104, but it had limited range and a small weapon load.
 
Thorny
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:18 am

Quoting N74jw (Reply 27):
One example would be the Mig-25 / F-15 designs. You have to admit, they look a great deal alike.

But the MiG-25 looks even more like a North American A-5 Vigilante than the F-15 looks like a MiG-25... Put a second vertical stab on an A-5 and presto... MiG-25.
 
cloudy
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:00 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 20):
One reason they did, was because they had worked out for themselves that the touted figures for NASA Shuttle, in launch costs, frequency of use, were BS.

I believed them at the time. I have an excuse of course, I was in early grade school  Smile . Seriously, I don't think NASA officials realize just how many people who believed the promises made for the shuttle still feel betrayed. Those of us who heard them when young and thought space travel would be like air travel by now feel it the most. This is the emotional root of the hatred of NASA you see in much of the space activist community today. Unfortunately, none of NASA's behavior since then has led us to believe that anything has changed. We've gone through the NASP, the X-33, the white-elephant ISS, etc. etc. The constellation program does represent some progress, however. NASA never claimed Constellation would be anything more than "Apollo on Steroids". There still won't be much progress from a layman's point of view even if it succeeds. At least we are not being lied to.
 
zvocio79
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:20 am

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 15):
The Soviets certainly are the best at copying US designs and trying to improve them. It has been proven time and time again.

Why not copy what's good, it doesn't necesarily need to be a US design.....in any event, how could you design an space shuttle or an aircraft that wont resemble another one, the law of gravity and aerodynamics apply for all flying machine so they are all gonna be similar.
I admire Russians passion for the universe and their constant effort for expanding their knowledge and explorations, but unfortunately they are way behind as compared to us, besides the Soyuz and few projects here are there, they are kind of getting obsolete.
 
sovietjet
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:35 am

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 23):
No. Just the Bear, shuttle, Tu144, AN124, and a few others.

Bear?!!? Explain to me what the Bear copied. I'm really curious to see the Western "original" of it. And don't say B-29, you very well know that those are two completely different aircraft.

Quoting N74jw (Reply 27):
One example would be the Mig-25 / F-15 designs.

There are only so many conventional layouts for a plane with a specific purpose, and they get even less when you have an aircraft that is supposed to have the design requirements the Mig-25 had at the time it was built. They did try planes with a Mig-21 type layout for a high speed high altitude interceptor before deciding the twin engine twin tail version is superior. Look up E-166 aircraft

Quoting Thorny (Reply 29):
Put a second vertical stab on an A-5 and presto... MiG-25.

Right, and if you take an F-16, split the intake, spread them apart a little, add another engine and tail...voila! Mig-29, it's GOTTA be a copy  Yeah sure
 
GDB
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:35 am

Cloudy, I don't really blame NASA for bigging up the Shuttle, they had no choice really, given the unreasonable demands, both in terms of Pentagon interference and budget wise, when it came to building the Shuttle.
Where there was blame at NASA, was where many of it's engineers just wanted something new to develop.
While Apollo/Saturn was still capable of more development.

I see Constellation as a return to a sensible goal, 'Apollo on steriods' to me, is a virtue, not an insult!
 
FlyUSCG
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:22 pm

Quoting Zvocio79 (Reply 31):

I didn't say that. It was Fumanchewd
Go Trojans! Fight On!
 
Thorny
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:19 pm

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 32):
Quoting Thorny (Reply 29):
Put a second vertical stab on an A-5 and presto... MiG-25.

Right, and if you take an F-16, split the intake, spread them apart a little, add another engine and tail...voila! Mig-29, it's GOTTA be a copy

Actually, that would be "copied" from the YF-17, not the F-16.  Smile As I said, it would sure help the Soviet/Russian cause if they arrived at one of these "fundamental design principles that make planes look the same" before the West did. But they always seem to be a few years behind their Western counterparts. And with blatant copying of the Nene, B-29, Concorde, and U.S. Shuttle, it is far from unreasonable to look at Soviet/Russian aircraft and wonder how much of its design is original.
 
Thorben
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:11 pm

Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter):
it looks very similar to the U.S. shuttle......

Yes, it looks very similar. However, the Buran was not really a success.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
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eksath
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:11 am

Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter):
http://englishrussia.com/?p=1362

it looks very similar to the U.S. shuttle......

...AND it is rotting away in a cold dark dilipated corner of the world while OV-103,104,105 are on approx. the 118th flight. I think it is a moot point on which is successful.

At rollout:
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Suresh A. Atapattu



[Edited 2007-10-13 22:34:49]
World Wide Aerospace Photography
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:23 pm

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 32):

Bear?!!? Explain to me what the Bear copied. I'm really curious to see the Western "original" of it. And don't say B-29, you very well know that those are two completely different aircraft.

Ok, how about the Bull? It has been documented that Russia copied the design. The Bull lead to the Bear. 2+2=4

Kevin Myers: Put the cold war back on ice and get those skies growling: “But by evil mischance, three B-29s made emergency landings in the Soviet Far East. The aircraft designer Andrei Tupolev decided to reverse-engineer the B-29. That is to say every single screw, every singe valve, every single light-bulb, every single switch and toggle and ashtray and button - over a million parts in all - were painstakingly and perfectly copied, and then assembled in the greatest act of flattery in industrial history. So confident was Tupolev of the soundness of the Boeing design that his version was put directly into production, without any test flights, and over 4,000 Tu-4 Bull bombers were manufactured for the Soviet air forces. Opposing them were 2,000 identical B-29s of the USAF. It was the only time in history that two world powers equipped their rival fleets with precisely the same bomber.
The creation of the B-29 had been the most complex project in aviation history, and the capture of the B-29s enabled Tupolev to learn in a few weeks what had taken the US many years to discover: the steepest aviation learning-curve ever.

However, the Tu-4 could not reach the USA, and if there’s one thing that dear old Stalin wanted, it was the ability to turn New York into a Siberia. So after various intermediary experiments, Tupolev produced the Tu-95, which basically consisted of the B-29/Tu-4 fuselage, but with huge new swept-back wings and four colossal turboprop engines.
The resulting Soviet/US fusion was one of the most extraordinary aerial confections ever. The Tu-95 had a range of over 10,000 miles, could cruise at 500mph at an altitude of 50,000 feet carrying a nuclear bomb.


http://cnnews.wordpress.com/2007/09/18/creation-of-tu95-the-bear/

While in fact the Bear was not a direct copy of the B29, it is a proven fact that the Bear has a copied B29 fuselage.

Questions?
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
tu114
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2004 8:00 pm

RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:46 pm

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 38):
While in fact the Bear was not a direct copy of the B29, it is a proven fact that the Bear has a copied B29 fuselage.

Have you actually ever looked at a photo of a Tu95?

I would argue more thoroughly, but I really haven't the energy.
 
A342
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:05 pm

RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Sun Oct 14, 2007 6:19 pm

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 38):
Tupolev produced the Tu-95, which basically consisted of the B-29/Tu-4 fuselage, but with huge new swept-back wings and four colossal turboprop engines.
The resulting Soviet/US fusion was one of the most extraordinary aerial confections ever. The Tu-95 had a range of over 10,000 miles, could cruise at 500mph at an altitude of 50,000 feet carrying a nuclear bomb.

LOL! First of all, the Bear has a range of 10,000 miles if it's empty. Carrying a meaningful payload, it drops to about 7500 miles.

And there's even more mistakes:

Quoting Article:
it was subsequently modified to perform a wide range of roles, such as the deployment of cruise missiles, maritime patrol (Tu-142 Bear-F), AWACS platform (Tu-126) and even civilian airliner (Tu-114).

In fact, the Tu-126 was a modification of the Tu-114.


Never before I've heard that crap of the Tu-95 fuselage being copied from something else.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
Slcpilot
Posts: 578
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 3:32 am

RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:17 pm

I have been on a search for many years now. It's buried in my memory, and I've probably even asked about it in this forum before, but....

Does anybody remember a photo of the right(?) wing tip of the Buran after it's only flight? To the best of my recollection, it showed maybe 7 or so missing tiles and damage to the aluminum structure. If anybody has ever heard (or have seen) this photo and would care to share it here, that would be great  Wink.

Thanks in advance!

SLCPilot



PS. Thank you Thorny for the great explanation of the ISS in the other thread, it really helped!
I don't like to be fueled by anger, I don't like to be fooled by lust...
 
fumanchewd
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Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:43 am

RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:56 pm

Quoting Tu114 (Reply 39):

I would argue more thoroughly, but I really haven't the time.

Time or evidence?

Provide the evidence and I will concede the point. Otherwise don't even bother posting if you don't show evidence.

Quoting A342 (Reply 40):



Never before I've heard that crap of the Tu-95 fuselage being copied from something else.

So it must be wrong???!!

The Badger and the Bear were both evolutionary and revolutionary in Russian aircraft design. The evolutionary aspect was in the design of the fuselage and systems, which directly illustrated their Boeing heritage. The revolutionary aspect was in the application of a swept wing and turbine powerplants.

http://www.ausairpower.net/Profile-Tupolev-Bear.html



The Tu-95 (NATO reporting name 'Bear') was developed around the 8950kW (12,000shp) Kuznetsov NK-12 turboprop and the fuselage cross section originally introduced on the Tu-4 'Bull', the USSR's unlicensed copy of the B-29 Superfortress. The engines deliver their power through eight blade counter rotating propellers, while the wings, unique for a propeller driven aircraft, are swept. The Tu-95's unique powerplant/airframe combination gives it a top speed over Mach 0.8, while its massive internal fuel capacity and the relative efficiency of the turboprops gives intercontinental range.

Without question the Russians copied the B29. I really don't care if anyone believes if the TU4 was a direct design element in the TU95.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
kbfispotter
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:38 am

While the Tu-95 is not a direct copy of the B-29 (Tu-4), the original concept of the aircraft was based on the B-29. When one looks at the Bear, you can see elements of the Superfort in it.

Kris
Proud to be an A&P!!!
 
sovietjet
Posts: 2558
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:13 am

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 38):
Ok, how about the Bull? It has been documented that Russia copied the design. The Bull lead to the Bear. 2+2=4

I never said the Tu-4 wasn't a copy of the B-29. The Tu-95 uses the same general alyout, but that's about it. They are completely different aircraft. And the Tu-126/Tu-114 are even more different, the fuselage on them is wider, the wings are at a different position, etc...

You can't take one similarity between two aircraft and somehow blow it up by magically "adding" this and changing that to make it somehow be a copy. I wonder why nobody says this about competing Western designs?

How about DC-9/BAC 1-11? B727/Trident? DC-8/B707? Or maybe the B-17/Lancaster? Yea all these aircraft look similar, they MUST be copies. Douglas must've been spying on Boeing and copied the 367-80 concept. Not to mention ALL new aircraft now look the same.
 
Stealthz
Posts: 5549
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:36 am

This whole B29/TU-4 evolution into the TU-95 is quite interesting and probably deserving of it's own thread.

If we accept that the TU-4 was a rivet for rivet(and at least anecdotely, a combat damage repair for combat damage repair) copy of a B-29 and I expect few will argue that point.
The next big assumption is that the folks at the Tupolev bureau never looked at another Western blueprint or document, that is a big assumption but let's make it anyway. In fairness let us make the similarly huge assumption that no one at Boeing ever looked at any Soviet documents.
With the B-29/Tu-4 as the heavy bomber benchmark of the time, or at least within those organisations, they then had to plan for the future and evolve that aircraft. Does it not make some sense that given the requirements of the role and the technologies available that at least some of those evolutionary steps will be very similar.
Boeing made many studies and proposals leading up to the B-52. Some with 6 engines and straight wings, smaller 4 engined with small payload/long range, similar 4 engined with larger payload/shorter range and one, the model 464-35 that had a shoulder mounted swept wing, 4 large turbine engines with... large contra-rotating propellers that looks remarkably like, yes you guessed it a TU-95.
With Boeing and the USAF going the turbojet route and heading towards the B-47 and B-52, B-29 evolution at Boeing headed off in another direction as the B-377 Stratocruiser and KC-97 and later into the Dash80, KC-135 and 707.

A couple of different decisions back in the late '40s might have seen a whole different type of bomber fleet in the USAF(and a very different civil airliner environment today).

Cheers
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
wvsuperhornet
Posts: 517
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:56 am

Quoting N74jw (Reply 27):
One example would be the Mig-25 / F-15 designs. You have to admit, they look a great deal alike. The Americans created a better wing, and cockpit layout with the bubble canopy. Both have twin engines, same intake design, but the Ye-155 (1964) which lead to the Mig-25 (1967) came out five years ahead of the F-15 (1972). In the final analysis, the two types are very different, but back then information flowed very slowly. Perhaps it is a very big coincidence that both parties came up with a similar solution to the same aerodynamic problem?

The F-15 was built as to a response to build something better than the MIG-25 The US thought the mig-25 had more capabilities than it did. The 2 aircraft looking even close to being alike is probably just a conincidence

But I do agree the Russian Space shuttle is probably a copy. I did read somewhere that the Russians acually came up with a better heat shield but they were ordered by the Kremlin to do it exactly like the americans. They originally had a bunch of thin layers in a wrap I saw it on a documentary and it looked pretty neat and smooth better than the tiles I thought anyway and trust me I wouldnt be saying it I am not one to jump on the Russian band wagon.

[Edited 2007-10-14 22:59:51]
 
sovietjet
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:56 am

Completely agree with you StealthZ, in fact the UUSR did try to make a bomber with turbojets...it was the Myasischev 3M/M-4 of which about 120 were made, but the turbojets of the time were very thirsty and the M-4 didn't meet range requirements. The M-4 and Tu-95 were competing designs, ultimately it was decided to build both, Myasischev using all new technologies while Tupolev took a more conservative approach. If anyone copied anyone, Tupolev copied Myasischev when all the documentation for the proposed M-18 and M-20 bombers was all of a sudden transferred to Tupolev, from which they made the Tu-160.
 
Stealthz
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RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:30 am

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 47):
from which they made the Tu-160

Hell SovietJet, now you have opened up a whole new can of worms with the B-1/TU-160, XB-70/Sukhoi T-4 thing!!

This could go on forever and surely does deserve it's own thread.. damn it could likely support it's own forum.

Cheers
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
fumanchewd
Posts: 2878
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:43 am

RE: Incredible Pics Of The Russian Space Shuttle!

Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:09 am

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 44):

I never said the Tu-4 wasn't a copy of the B-29. The Tu-95 uses the same general alyout, but that's about it.

It involves large elements of copied design. That's all I meant.

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 44):
How about DC-9/BAC 1-11? B727/Trident? DC-8/B707? Or maybe the B-17/Lancaster? Yea all these aircraft look similar, they MUST be copies. Douglas must've been spying on Boeing and copied the 367-80 concept. Not to mention ALL new aircraft now look the same.

The 727 and the Trident? The B17 and the Lancaster? The B17 and the Lancaster were not developed by opposing superpowers! Those are pathetic examples!

Show me some evidence! The TU4 was a direct copy! I have showed evidence that the Bear incorporated designs from the Tu4. I am done with this silly point.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 48):
Hell SovietJet, now you have opened up a whole new can of worms with the B-1/TU-160, XB-70/Sukhoi T-4 thing!!

This could go on forever and surely does deserve it's own thread.. damn it could likely support it's own forum.

Of course you are right. I am through and I do apologize for diverting this from the topic. The pictures are naturally awesome and, again, I have the utmost respect for the Russian engineers, but the conceptual design is a copy.

I will not post any more posts not in alignment with the Russian shuttle.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...

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